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hypehat
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« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2013, 12:35:51 AM »

You want affordable health care? Get rid of any and all government involvement. Government turns everything it touches into garbage. I'm waiting for when health care in this country becomes bad on an NHS level...then maybe the pinko pygmies with their dreams of socialism will wise up - that is, if they're not dead.

I don't know exactly what you're reading about the NHS (probably The Daily Mail), but it's pretty clear that the major failings of the system come from crucial services being sold to corporations like Serco and Atos*, who then f*** it up trying to cut every single corner for profit, not from government, and that this quasi-privatisation comes from exactly the ideology you preach - for example, the recent debacle about NHS 111, explained on a handy nonleftistevilstatemediailluminaticonspiracy Channel 4 Dispatches doc.  This explains a fair bit, I recall http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/23/who-will-hold-nhs-contractors-to-account. Or just google NHS Serco. Hip hip fuckin Hooray for the private sector.

*Atos, most famous for judging heavily disabled people on benefits 'fit to work' whilst sponsoring the Olympic Paralympic (doh) Games.  

Yours, from Socialist Nirvana,

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« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 08:09:31 AM by hypehat » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2013, 07:46:12 AM »

Something caught my attention late last night, to temporarily shift away from the topic here. There was a headline when i went to log in for my email about how many people were visiting these health care websites and how that proved it's "popularity"...something like that. Unfortunately the headline has since been taken down.

Check this out as an example of the kind of hype and overstatement that we're getting as "news".

This is the original piece from the LA Times, for the record: http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-california-health-exchange-glitches-20131001,0,7108713.story

And the timeline of all that led up to this can still be found on various news sites, they're still up but who knows for how long.

To sum it all up, California was expected to have one of the largest participation rates of any state in the US. Their "exchange" headquarters is named "Covered California", and is where you would either call or visit on the web in order to sign up.

So, here it goes:

News reports were trumpeting how 5 million Californians had visited the "Covered" website to enroll. This, they said, was proof of how popular the Affordable Care Act was, how many people were flocking to the site to get in. Very much like the headline that appeared as i checked my email.

OK, I thought, there's some hype there.

So the news reports are spreading, the AP wire service picks up the 5 million number and spreads it around national news outlets as "proof", etc.

Then the "Covered CA" website glitched so bad it had to be taken down for emergency repairs...it happens, no big deal. People were still signing up, they said, as soon as the site went live again. "Waiting" to enroll, was one report.

Now the truth:

It was not 5 million hits...rather, it was 500,000. That's an error of 4.5 million. There are quotes from both a state health official AND a spokesperson from Covered California reporting the 5 million number...who is getting the blame? The spokesperson, of course, they "misspoke" or had a "misunderstanding" of the number they were given.

Let's see: 5 million, versus five hundred thousand. Yeah, that's easy to confuse those figures. Fact-check, then report.

Then: Ok, they got 500,000 website hits. How many people applied? Estimated at just under 8,000. That's how many filled out and pressed "send" on a completed e-form application.

So how many people were actually enrolled in the health care plan?

ZERO.

That's 0.

Why or how did no one manage to enroll in California? The word is that the staff members working at "Covered California" and other related organizations were not trained to actually process the applications or to, more importantly, actually sign people up for the coverage plans. No word on how long that process will take.

And there it is. The kind of reporting we're getting around this where 5 million is proof how popular this plan was upon roll-out, then the actual figure is 500,000 due to a "misstatement", and the fact that no one could actually enroll because no one was trained to enroll them becomes a footnote if it's reported at all.

Good times.  Smiley
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Bean Bag
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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2013, 08:51:51 AM »

It's a heist for sure! It's pointless to split hairs over who's doing the stealing be it the big bad government, the evil corporations, or scumbag Obama, for they are all one and the same.

Bean, as long as you endlessly blame the Democrats and Liberals endlessly blame Republicans: you/they are part of the problem.... By blaming the Democrats, you are doing EXACTLY what they want you to be doing! "They" being both Democrats/Republicans, of course.

You are 100% correct, mind you, but if we don't get beyond the labels, we're f***ed.

I agree about labels.  Usually, they're dangerous.  It can divert attention from the real concepts (that I care about anyway), which is ruler VS. citizen.  Not Republican/Democrat or Right/Left -- those are moving targets.  Secondly, people can easily assume attacking one is an endorsement of the other -- and a defensive posture may result, leading to a hardening of label loyalties.

Therefore, I'm careful to come down so definitively on a party.   But, I think on this particular issue, the Democrats own it.  And I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence pretending I see it otherwise.  As the Democrats had hoped, the issue was becoming more vague as time went on -- "ruler VS. citizen" -- all thanks to Benedict John McCain, Mitch McConnell and John Boner -- who appeared to go along, even in their "opposition."  Haze and confusion is good for criminals.

But Ted Cruz (and a few others) have helped make sure that the distinction remained clear.  No Republicans wanted this bill, and Ted Cruz reaffirmed that.  And to your point, I'm sure even many Democrats didn't want it either.  But they went along.  The unions can squirm themselves to hell.

So, in this case, slapping a party label on this nightmare is beneficial -- because Obamacare is not on the ballot.  If it were, we wouldn't be talking about it.  And to be fair to the OP, allowing this to descend (or ascend) into the "ruler VS. citizen" -- the theoretical discussion of the role of government -- is not the issue.  This is "go time."  It's real now.

http://www.dontfundobamacare.com/
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2013, 10:19:49 AM »

In the case of labels and labeling people, yes it's something to get beyond but in the specific case of the Affordable Care Act, the facts of how it came to be signed into law are a crucial part of the narrative. To sum it up, yes indeed the Democratic party owns this bill from start to finish.

Here's how:

The negotiations which were announced would be "open" were done behind closed and locked doors as democratic members of congress worked on the details. The doors were locked - physically locked - when republicans tried to get involved in the meetings.

The eventual vote in the senate, taken on Christmas Eve 2009, was 58 democrats and 2 independents voting for it, and every republican voting against it (Jim Bunning was not present for the vote).

The vote in the house to approve the senate's bill was 219 democrats voting for it, 178 republicans (all of them) voting against it, and 34 democrats also voting against it.

The president, a democrat, signed the bill into law.

If we tally that up, not a single republican voted for the Affordable Care Act.

The democrats do, in fact, "own" this law from beginning to end in the usual "bill becomes law" government process.

So it is entirely within reason, I'd argue essential, to point out that in this case, the labels point to who was almost solely responsible for making this a law, and thus the democrats in this case are held accountable and responsible for its creation and results.
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« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2013, 11:23:13 AM »

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/03/need-health-care-coverage-just-dial-1-800-fuckyo-to-reach-obamacares-national-hotline/

I'd expect no less from this criminal bastard's regime...in this regard, they do not disappoint.
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« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2013, 11:39:47 AM »

Er... sure about that?  LOL


Ok, wow, that site is written so stupidly I immediately assumed it was satire! With such headlines as 'Shutdown drives women into arms of older men', 'There's apparently a high school twerk team now', opinion pieces of such wisdom like 'The Income Tax: A century is enough', and a separate section for Guns & Gear!

The truth is stranger than fiction, I suppose!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 11:46:52 AM by hypehat » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2013, 12:59:03 PM »

Bottom line, once again: If we're not pushing for universal/"free" healthcare: we've no right to complain because it will ONLY be bad otherwise.

Free market blinded-by-the-lighters get to blame the Democrats/Obama for how awful our healthcare situation is, the rest of use get to blame corporations/Republicans (going way way back) AND Obama/Democrats..... It's one giant bitch-fest to well suit the worst parts of our nature that need constant stroking.... No one 's fooling anyone here and we've only ourselves to blame.

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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 07:09:33 AM »

You're seeing the direct results and consequences of *this specific law*, and I'm just one of many who is not covered by a large corporation or company who received a one-year delay in implementation where they and their plans ARE NOT REQUIRED to comply with the Affordable Care Act until next year.

Again, it's not just me: Whether it's being reported or not, my insurance company which is the major player in my area has been dropping coverage plans for thousands of people in my area and otherwise.

The Affordable Care Act by design had certain components which would, effectively, create a set of standards sometimes based on the smallest details in a wide-ranging plan and then do full "audits" of the plans people were buying under their private insurance and declare them to be "non-compliant".

Which based on what I know through the companies is EXACTLY how my and thousands of others' plans in my own group got terminated and we received that bullshit about the bronze-silver-gold-platinum plans which will...listen to this please...

OFFER LESS COVERAGE, HIGHER DEDUCTIBLES, AND HIGHER MONTHLY RATES THAN WHAT WE WERE RECEIVING BEFORE. This is truth, this is reality, this isn't bullshit, this isn't a "talking point" - it's the way it is.

Hey, enjoy your one-year temporary reprieve from this if you're part of a big company or one that received an exemption from this, because this is affecting everyone's plan at some point in the future if it survives as it exists now.

If you're OK with potentially paying hundreds of dollars more for health insurance each month after your own group's coverage is deemed "non-compliant" with the ACA, then replacements are offered which cost more and offer less than what you had, cough up the extra cash with a smile and a feel-good notion that you're helping someone else.

I can't afford that right now, unfortunately, it's the only option I have.

And if it bothers some to see that one party and one party alone in this case brought all of this on, too bad. Someone needs to answer for this, because it just isn't fucking right to affect people who are working and paying for their insurance and are not part of the "exempt" groups who don't need to give a sh*t about changing anything. At what point does it become a more attractive option to just say "f*** it" and drop out entirely if doing the right thing and paying your bills gets you kicked in the ass through no choice or fault of your own?

f*** it, indeed. No, f*** those who lied about this bill in order to sell it to an ignorant or brainwashed public as the best solution. f*** 'em. If you like your coverage, you can keep your coverage? Sure. Ask me about that.

I can give more specifics on this 'compliance' thing too, again it was no accident and it was part of what looks more like a scheme than a solution at this point.
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« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 10:45:11 PM »

It's stunning to me that people didn't realize that this was about money.  The government no longer exists (or maybe never did) to help people, or protect people, it exists to take money from people.  People earn money.  People creat money.  The government can't create, or earn, money.  They have to take it.  It's the only way they can get their hands on it.

Every bill, law, whatever that the gubment comes up with is just designed to get their hands on more money.  Period. 

The insurance companies wrote the bill.  Insurance companies exist to make money.  None of this harms insurance companies, they came up with it! 

The whole point of the law, is to force you to sign a contract with an insurance company.  Nevermind that this voids contract law, since it's inception... I mean the basic tenant of contract law is that both parties AGREE to sign the contract.  You can't FORCE somebody to sign a contract, it negates the contract.

Anyways, I digress.

Now, you're forced to sign an insurance contract.  No prob.  Hell, I already had insurance!  What do i care that I HAVE to now, right?  I mean it just makes sense that we have insurance.  If you don't sign the contract.... that's alright, you just have to give the government a bunch of money. 

Butttt wait, it's not quite that simple.  For some reason, my insurance rates went up.  I'm not paying for all kinds of sh*t, like maternity insurance (I'm a 35 year old single male), mental health insurance (I'm too crazy to go see a psychiatrist) and all kinds of other sh*t I'll never use.  Who gets the extra money I'm paying for that?

Innnnsurance companies.  Who wrote the law.

Yet, year after year, this country votes for bigger and bigger government.  Our president goes to congress every few months, and says "Hey! I need to borrow more money from China!" and we let him.  Over and over again.  Then we re-elect him.  We deserve what we get.  Socialism will destroy this country as it's destroyed great countries around the world, we were naieve to think we're any different. 

BTW, as for a 'right to healthcare', you can't assert a right to have another human being do something for you.  You have a right to talk.  You have a right to assemble.  You have a right to own property.  You have a right to pursue happiness.  You do not have a right to make Doctor Jenkins down the street put his stethascope on you.
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« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2013, 03:56:20 AM »


BTW, as for a 'right to healthcare', you can't assert a right to have another human being do something for you.  You have a right to talk.  You have a right to assemble.  You have a right to own property.  You have a right to pursue happiness.  You do not have a right to make Doctor Jenkins down the street put his stethascope on you.

I'm not disagreeing with you here but you also have a right to affordable options if, say you have an accident or a heart attack or need treatment for cancer. What the Health Insurance companies need is proper legislation by an official watchdog. Proper laws that protect the customer. No small print that lets them hike up your premiums or change the terms of your policy. No trying to weasel out of payouts. Fines and punishments that would legally f*** them so hard in the ass if they were to do so that they would have no choice but to play fair.
And if you really feel you can't afford private healthcare insurance then OPTIONAL taxation to pay into Government sponsored Health Programs.
It shouldn't get to the point where you have John Q forcing a specialist to operate on his child at gunpoint. 
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« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2013, 12:31:31 PM »

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4046470

Not that I expect some of you on the right to be moved.
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« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2013, 12:49:04 PM »

I can't think of anything more grotesque than forcing people to do something they don't want to do under threat of violence.
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« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2013, 01:20:14 PM »

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4046470

Not that I expect some of you on the right to be moved.

No one wishes to see people suffering because of medical conditions, "left" or "right", and no one wishes to see people burdened with financial hardships. But the Huffington Post is being dishonest to the readers by linking those stories to what has been discussed in this thread.

First, one of the major issues for me and others in my situation is that we could afford insurance, we paid for that coverage based on the levels we chose, and now due to the Affordable Care Act the federal government audited all of those coverage plans and in a sweeping move found ways to declare them "not in compliance" with what they mandated the new standards are. So instead of me paying for a better individual plan that suited my needs perfectly and had as a key element a low deductible should I ever need hospitalization or emergency care, the new options labeled bronze-silver-gold-platinum will cost me considerably more and offer not only reduced benefits but also a much higher deductible.

In one man's case very similar to mine, in my area and covered under almost the exact plan I just had terminated due to these new compliance standards, the closest coverage he had available from this week's exchanges carried a deductible of $5,500. Which in simple terms means that if he went into the hospital, *he would be responsible for paying $5,500 out of pocket towards his bills* before the coverage kicked in.

I was in the hospital for an emergency in fall 2008, actually in that same week ended up in the ER twice. The coverage I had was perfect - I had paid for a low deductible, which had already been met, therefore tests like CAT scans and a spinal tap which added up to 5-figures were paid by my insurance.

If in Fall 2008 I had the "silver" or the "gold" plan, whatever the case, I would have been hit with a bill for over 5,000 dollars which would have, at that time, effectively bankrupted me in the short term, as the timing coincided with a slowdown in business after the financial collapse. In fact, it was in the ER waiting room on one of those visits that I saw some of that news breaking about the economy going in the tank.

So, I hope folks don't get sick.

And, I hope folks realize that what those people experienced on the Huffington video isn't quite connected with the plans that just got introduced and made available through the online exchanges just this week.

Unless their individual stories involved them signing up this Tuesday, getting enrolled and approved for coverage, and then having that coverage solve all the issues they were facing...all in the span of 4 days?

It's the implementation of this plan we're hashing out here, the already negative effects that have begun to take effect by government decisions on thousands which will soon be on millions who currently have a plan they like, and things like the individual mandate to carry insurance and the outright lies that people in the so called "lower to middle class" workforce are being told about what's ahead.

But for those folks in the photos and videos, it's tough to connect a roll-out of coverage options through government exchanges with their stories in a span of five days or less that the new "affordable" exchanges have been running.

Changes needed to be made, no doubt. Eliminating pre-existing conditions as a factor for being insured was a major one, and that got addressed.

But the financial effects of the full scope of this law will be felt by so many people, that the stories of someone who got qualified for government assistance like Medicaid will far outnumber those people who will now need to find a means to pay potentially hundreds of dollars more for worse coverage than they've had before all of this really takes effect.

Huffington is confusing the issues surrounding the implementation with issues that were not related to the new coverage standards rolled out this week, and it's just being dishonest to the readers. The solutions to those peoples' problems related to health care are not related to the issues we're discussing, the issues I'm relating from personal experience, and the issues that have arisen as the new standards for coverage were introduced just this week.

But give it time, everyone who has health care now will feel the effects of all this, and that dose of reality will outweigh the politics, the ideology, and the grandstanding when it takes money from your own pocket.

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« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2013, 03:22:38 PM »

I can't think of anything more grotesque than forcing people to do something they don't want to do under threat of violence.

I can't think of anything more grotesque than people being left to suffer and die because they can't afford exorbitant insurance fees.
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2013, 05:32:10 PM »

I can't think of anything more grotesque than forcing people to do something they don't want to do under threat of violence.

I can't think of anything more grotesque than people being left to suffer and die because they can't afford exorbitant insurance fees.

If again tonight there are people shot in a gang fight or turf war over drug corners or any other beef between rivals on the streets of Philly or Chicago, the gang members themselves let's say are the ones wounded, they get taken to the emergency room and given emergency treatment, followed up by intensive care in an effort to save their lives. Who pays the bill?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 05:33:44 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2013, 11:15:46 AM »

I can't think of anything more grotesque than forcing people to do something they don't want to do under threat of violence.

I can't think of anything more grotesque than people being left to suffer and die because they can't afford exorbitant insurance fees.

Is that my problem? Or yours? Whose problem is it?
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« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2013, 12:09:40 PM »

I can't think of anything more grotesque than forcing people to do something they don't want to do under threat of violence.

I can't think of anything more grotesque than people being left to suffer and die because they can't afford exorbitant insurance fees.

Is that my problem? Or yours? Whose problem is it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usN3rpfFoGA
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« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2013, 12:24:44 PM »

It's not society's problem, either.
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« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2013, 03:55:15 PM »

A persons bank balance shouldn't determine whether they live or die.
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What is this "life" thing you speak of ?

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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2013, 05:07:41 PM »

I can't think of anything more grotesque than forcing people to do something they don't want to do under threat of violence.

I can't think of anything more grotesque than people being left to suffer and die because they can't afford exorbitant insurance fees.

If again tonight there are people shot in a gang fight or turf war over drug corners or any other beef between rivals on the streets of Philly or Chicago, the gang members themselves let's say are the ones wounded, they get taken to the emergency room and given emergency treatment, followed up by intensive care in an effort to save their lives. Who pays the bill?

I mean, yeah, that must be so great for them. I bet they really like stealing your tax dollars by getting shot. Thug Life.
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« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2013, 05:22:22 PM »

A persons bank balance shouldn't determine whether they live or die.

Whoa Hypehat. It was their fault for being born in an inner city slum, raised by a single parent, and given sh*t education because of their locale.

This Darwinist mentality has turned me off of Libertarianism a lot (which I used to fully support). I don't believe in handouts, I think people should work their ass off if they want to own nice things. But ALL people should be allowed to have affordable healthcare....just like they're allowed the right to a good education. Educated and healthy citizens are the centerpiece for a prosperous nation.

*edit: with that said, I think Obamacare is garbage. I know a lot of people in Guitarfool's shoes that are going through a lot of crap now because of this bill.
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« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2013, 09:43:37 PM »


BTW, as for a 'right to healthcare', you can't assert a right to have another human being do something for you.  You have a right to talk.  You have a right to assemble.  You have a right to own property.  You have a right to pursue happiness.  You do not have a right to make Doctor Jenkins down the street put his stethascope on you.

I'm not disagreeing with you here but you also have a right to affordable options if, say you have an accident or a heart attack or need treatment for cancer. What the Health Insurance companies need is proper legislation by an official watchdog. Proper laws that protect the customer. No small print that lets them hike up your premiums or change the terms of your policy. No trying to weasel out of payouts. Fines and punishments that would legally f*** them so hard in the ass if they were to do so that they would have no choice but to play fair.
And if you really feel you can't afford private healthcare insurance then OPTIONAL taxation to pay into Government sponsored Health Programs.
It shouldn't get to the point where you have John Q forcing a specialist to operate on his child at gunpoint. 

I think we just disagree on semantics.  You don't have a right to affordable anything, including healthcare, IN MY OPINION.

Should you have affordable options? Yes, should the government regulate the insurance industry? yes.  I just don't feel it's a 'right'.  It's a 'need'.  I 'need' a doctor to help me, I don't have the 'right' to have a doctor help me. 
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« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2013, 09:53:55 PM »

couple points

Guitarfool, your posts illustrate an interesting point.  I have insurance (that I pay for) that is much different than yours, and is what I chose to get.  I never get sick and i'm at an age and a health where I haven't been to the hospital in 15 years.  For me, what was important was that I have coverage that will help me if something disasterous like a heart attack, or car accident happens.  So I purposefully bought insurance with a high deductible.  If I have a heart attack, I have 5 grand or so to pay out of pocket, but I won't have to worry about hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bills.  This works well for me.

With this new law, though, folks like you are having your plans changed, and folks like me are having our rates raised.  In the end we have less choices.


-----------------------------

Story time.

My mother developed cancer several years ago, and had an emergency situation at work.  She was rushed to the hospital, and was there for a week or so.  She had emergency surgery (her colon burst).  She had a colostomy, and was sent home.  A nurse came by everyday and helped her with that.  She got all the supplies for it mailed to the house; 9 months later she had a surgery to reverse the colostomy.  She met with dietricians, physical therapy instructors, scores of doctors.  Had a panel of doctors meet and determine what they thought the best treatement for her cancer was.  Had a surgery to install a valve to administer the chemo with... had a laserscopic surgery to treat the tumour in her brain.  Got treatment she had never even heard of for about 6 years, and then passed away.

she didn't pay a dime, because she didn't have any money.    She literally, had the best treatement in the world, with no waiting lines, and didn't have a penny to her name.  I must have met 20 or 30 professionals who were some of the kindest, most educated beautiful people I've ever met in my life who helped her out over and over and over again. 

So all this noise about uninsured people, and how people die without treatment, and all this crap is baloney.  My mother lived through it, she was dirt poor and was treated like a queen from the moment she had an issue until her life was over. 
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Mike's Beard
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« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2013, 11:33:14 PM »

I can't think of anything more grotesque than forcing people to do something they don't want to do under threat of violence.

I can't think of anything more grotesque than people being left to suffer and die because they can't afford exorbitant insurance fees.

If again tonight there are people shot in a gang fight or turf war over drug corners or any other beef between rivals on the streets of Philly or Chicago, the gang members themselves let's say are the ones wounded, they get taken to the emergency room and given emergency treatment, followed up by intensive care in an effort to save their lives. Who pays the bill?

I mean, yeah, that must be so great for them. I bet they really like stealing your tax dollars by getting shot. Thug Life.

The Real Beach Boy mentioned a hypothetical situation where a drug dealing gang member gets shot before they have the chance to shoot their rival - why on earth would you care if scum like this live or die? And why would you want to pay to save them?
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I'd rather be forced to sleep with Caitlyn Jenner then ever have to listen to NPP again.
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« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2013, 01:43:56 AM »

Obamacare is a political scam to support incompetent professional cliques and a drug cult.
Insurance companies are ruthless businesses posing as a "mutual aid society" that makes over ten billion dollars in profit every year.
The Medical Services Industry is NOT healthcare. Its success depends on a culture of disease and pathologizing.

Viva Asclepius!
Viva Paracelsus!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:49:11 AM by Prabhuji » Logged
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