Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

= SmileySmile = BWPS = The Smile Sessions!

I'd say we've been given plenty of awesomeness as fans  

The one who got the short end of the stick was Brian, sadly. If only we had vocals to Look/CIFOTM verses/Worms and a complete Surf's Up I would be happy. But Brian deserved to be seen as the bringer of psychedelic rock to the mainstream. It shouldve been SMiLE at #1 on the charts and Brian as the King of Pop, not the Beatles. I'll always be sad the world missed out on the message when it was most receptive to such a thing...and got the second tier Pepper instead:/

I agree, but The Beach Boys have still endured in a way that psychedelic rock hasn't.....

And was Brian given the short end of the stick, or did he take the short end??

Yes and no. They're not "cool" but they've persevered. They could've been so much more though had SMiLE come out. Smiley and no Monterey made them seem lame and behind the times, and you could argue their image in the mainstream media has never completely recovered.

I'd argue that Brian knew scrapping SMiLE was an artistic mistake, but for a variety of personal reasons and the overwhelming desire to be revolutionary, he shelved it.

But they were lame and behind the times. Always were/always would be, and that's one reason they are so great.

Brian wasn't ahead of the curve with Pet Sounds and SMILE: he WAS the curve! Doing new things and then moving on. It was other people who needed to worry about being cool.

[SMiLE Brian]

If SMiLE came out, we would have never got kokomo and SIP......

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

If SMiLE came out, we would have never got kokomo and SIP......

Yes, we would have.....

I swear to God, folks who wish it would have been SMILE followed by 50+ years of SMILE #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 are not Beach Boys fans

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

That's basically an accurate math problem for this situation we're discussing.

I still kinda really suspect we'd have gotten Wild Honey next even if SMILE had come out as intended..... Maybe a Wild Honey with more wrecking crew cats, but Wild Honey nonetheless... What do you guys think?

I'd like to think we'd get a SMiLE 2 with all the blossoming outtakes from SMiLE reworked as full tracks but in a Smiley-esque stripped down style. So basically, Smiley but with new songs instead of HV/VT/Wind Chimes, etc.

Here lies the problem, I feel, with a lot of Beach Boys fandom..... People wanted another Pet Sounds, and people want another SMILE ... which was impossible with Brian/The Beach Boys .... Whether happy or sad, they moved on and never really ever repeated themselves until much much later.....

I just meant take the leftover SMiLE pieces (He Gives Speeches/She's Going Bald, With Me Tonight, Cool cool water, Dada (which I don't think would've made the cut for SMiLE in 1967) and made a stripped down Smiley with them. That's not repeating themselves. That's using the material you have and experimenting with the new sounds of the home studio. Smiley as released in place of SMiLE was seen as Brian losing his touch. But I think a Smiley style album AFTER SMiLE would've been hailed as a genius antithesis to the production race that the Beach Boys would've won in this alt timeline.

[pixletwin]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

That's basically an accurate math problem for this situation we're discussing.

I still kinda really suspect we'd have gotten Wild Honey next even if SMILE had come out as intended..... Maybe a Wild Honey with more wrecking crew cats, but Wild Honey nonetheless... What do you guys think?

I'd like to think we'd get a SMiLE 2 with all the blossoming outtakes from SMiLE reworked as full tracks but in a Smiley-esque stripped down style. So basically, Smiley but with new songs instead of HV/VT/Wind Chimes, etc.

Here lies the problem, I feel, with a lot of Beach Boys fandom..... People wanted another Pet Sounds, and people want another SMILE ... which was impossible with Brian/The Beach Boys .... Whether happy or sad, they moved on and never really ever repeated themselves until much much later.....

I just meant take the leftover SMiLE pieces (He Gives Speeches/She's Going Bald, With Me Tonight, Cool cool water, Dada (which I don't think would've made the cut for SMiLE in 1967) and made a stripped down Smiley with them. That's not repeating themselves. That's using the material you have and experimenting with the new sounds of the home studio. Smiley as released in place of SMiLE was seen as Brian losing his touch. But I think a Smiley style album AFTER SMiLE would've been hailed as a genius antithesis to the production race that the Beach Boys would've won in this alt timeline.

The Beatles always would have destroyed The Beach Boys with the hip kids because they were a tight band and knew how to rock!

Same way Lumpy Gravy didn't usher in a new era of sophistication ..... it was a respected curio to smoke a join to before you put Sgt. Pepper back on.

[CenturyDeprived]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

They weren't as "cool" on their own - but if Derek Taylor had kept up his PR magic, and they had a 1967-era Jack Rieley figure who they'd have taken advice from (and not in a reactionary position of desperation to regain cred, but more of a proactive thing where it was naturally -and without any internal resistance - happening in sync with the times)... I think they could have kept the "cred" thing current even amongst the other "cool" bands of the time.

[SMiLE Brian]

Just having my brianista fantasies of the day, what we got instead of SMiLE shows the BBs talents and BW's production skills no matter what.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

As good as SMILE might have been, The Beatles still would have run it out of town just like Star Wars ran out whatever little movie was playing at the local cinema in 1977! .... They were The Beatles!!!! and Pepper sounded like a band and had Ringo bashing away and lots of tasty guitar action and just enough "experimentation" to get the job done! And lyrics that people could groove on.

And The Beach Boys were lame, square dorks from day one ........ excepting Dennis of course, but he was still a dork by association.... I think the biggest F*ck up was not having the boys playing on all the records for at least a while longer.... THAT would have possibly gotten them the right sort of "cred"

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

As good as SMILE might have been, The Beatles still would have run it out of town just like Star Wars ran out whatever little movie was playing at the local cinema in 1977! .... They were The Beatles!!!! and Pepper sounded like a band and had Ringo bashing away and lots of tasty guitar action and just enough "experimentation" to get the job done! And lyrics that people could groove on.

And The Beach Boys were lame, square dorks from day one ........ excepting Dennis of course, but he was still a dork by association.... I think the biggest F*ck up was not having the boys playing on all the records for at least a while longer.... THAT would have possibly gotten them the right sort of "cred"

It's my understanding that the BBs were about equal in stature to the Beatles UNTIL the fateful Summer of Love. Not some obscure movie to Star Wars. Pepper may have outsold SMiLE no matter what, but I think the artists, industry people and hippies with taste would've regarded SMiLE as the superior work it undeniably is, and over time I don't think it's farfetched to think SMiLE's reputation would've eclipsed Pepper's.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

As good as SMILE might have been, The Beatles still would have run it out of town just like Star Wars ran out whatever little movie was playing at the local cinema in 1977! .... They were The Beatles!!!! and Pepper sounded like a band and had Ringo bashing away and lots of tasty guitar action and just enough "experimentation" to get the job done! And lyrics that people could groove on.

And The Beach Boys were lame, square dorks from day one ........ excepting Dennis of course, but he was still a dork by association.... I think the biggest F*ck up was not having the boys playing on all the records for at least a while longer.... THAT would have possibly gotten them the right sort of "cred"

It's my understanding that the BBs were about equal in stature to the Beatles UNTIL the fateful Summer of Love. Not some obscure movie to Star Wars. Pepper may have outsold SMiLE no matter what, but I think the artists, industry people and hippies with taste would've regarded SMiLE as the superior work it undeniably is, and over time I don't think it's farfetched to think SMiLE's reputation would've eclipsed Pepper's.

"Industry people and hippies with taste" .... Yes, but you're talking about (realistically) the same amount of people who went gaga over Pet Sounds at the time.

[pixletwin]

Well that is how Mike certainly would like you to remember it... I think that was at least true if you happened to vote in the melody maker poll or whatever it was that he always cites.  

In 1966 the Beatles girlie-girl fan base was waning and the Beach Boys were picking up more hip fans. But to say the two were on equal footing )with regards to fanbase/power) is a gross exaggeration.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

As good as SMILE might have been, The Beatles still would have run it out of town just like Star Wars ran out whatever little movie was playing at the local cinema in 1977! .... They were The Beatles!!!! and Pepper sounded like a band and had Ringo bashing away and lots of tasty guitar action and just enough "experimentation" to get the job done! And lyrics that people could groove on.

And The Beach Boys were lame, square dorks from day one ........ excepting Dennis of course, but he was still a dork by association.... I think the biggest F*ck up was not having the boys playing on all the records for at least a while longer.... THAT would have possibly gotten them the right sort of "cred"

It's my understanding that the BBs were about equal in stature to the Beatles UNTIL the fateful Summer of Love. Not some obscure movie to Star Wars. Pepper may have outsold SMiLE no matter what, but I think the artists, industry people and hippies with taste would've regarded SMiLE as the superior work it undeniably is, and over time I don't think it's farfetched to think SMiLE's reputation would've eclipsed Pepper's.

"Industry people and hippies with taste" .... Yes, but you're talking about (realistically) the same amount of people who went gaga over Pet Sounds at the time.

And your point is?

[pixletwin]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

As good as SMILE might have been, The Beatles still would have run it out of town just like Star Wars ran out whatever little movie was playing at the local cinema in 1977! .... They were The Beatles!!!! and Pepper sounded like a band and had Ringo bashing away and lots of tasty guitar action and just enough "experimentation" to get the job done! And lyrics that people could groove on.

And The Beach Boys were lame, square dorks from day one ........ excepting Dennis of course, but he was still a dork by association.... I think the biggest F*ck up was not having the boys playing on all the records for at least a while longer.... THAT would have possibly gotten them the right sort of "cred"

It's my understanding that the BBs were about equal in stature to the Beatles UNTIL the fateful Summer of Love. Not some obscure movie to Star Wars. Pepper may have outsold SMiLE no matter what, but I think the artists, industry people and hippies with taste would've regarded SMiLE as the superior work it undeniably is, and over time I don't think it's farfetched to think SMiLE's reputation would've eclipsed Pepper's.

"Industry people and hippies with taste" .... Yes, but you're talking about (realistically) the same amount of people who went gaga over Pet Sounds at the time.

And your point is?

That the Beach Boys never were on equal footing with the Beatles when it came to fanbase and power.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Well that is how Mike certainly would like you to remember it... I think that was at least true if you happened to vote in the melody maker poll or whatever it was that he always cites.  

In 1966 the Beatles girlie-girl fan base was waning and the Beach Boys were picking up more hip fans. But to say the two were on equal footing )with regards to fanbase/power) is a gross exaggeration.

I wasn't alive so I'm going by second/third/fourth hand sources.

Still, the world was ready for psychedelic rock in 1967. The Beatles as you said were cooling down while Brian was on top of the world in early 67. Pepper's release at just the right time, coupled with SMiLE's failure is what reversed those fortunes and forever cemented the idea that the Beatles were cool and the Boys were behind. Had SMiLE come out, especially first who's to say what could've happened. But this idea that SMiLE was doomed to fail no matter what is just straight up WRONG as far as I can see.

[CenturyDeprived]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

As good as SMILE might have been, The Beatles still would have run it out of town just like Star Wars ran out whatever little movie was playing at the local cinema in 1977! .... They were The Beatles!!!! and Pepper sounded like a band and had Ringo bashing away and lots of tasty guitar action and just enough "experimentation" to get the job done! And lyrics that people could groove on.

And The Beach Boys were lame, square dorks from day one ........ excepting Dennis of course, but he was still a dork by association.... I think the biggest F*ck up was not having the boys playing on all the records for at least a while longer.... THAT would have possibly gotten them the right sort of "cred"

It's my understanding that the BBs were about equal in stature to the Beatles UNTIL the fateful Summer of Love. Not some obscure movie to Star Wars. Pepper may have outsold SMiLE no matter what, but I think the artists, industry people and hippies with taste would've regarded SMiLE as the superior work it undeniably is, and over time I don't think it's farfetched to think SMiLE's reputation would've eclipsed Pepper's.

"Industry people and hippies with taste" .... Yes, but you're talking about (realistically) the same amount of people who went gaga over Pet Sounds at the time.

And your point is?

That the Beach Boys never were on equal footing with the Beatles when it came to fanbase and power.

This is certainly something I'd agree with.
IMO, SMiLE was a most extreme attempt to very specifically change that.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I used to buy into the whole "SMiLE would have beaten Pepper and the Beach Boys would have ushered in a golden age of pop music"... but the more I think about it the more I realize that the Beach Boys as a group didn't have the "cool" to make anything as grandiose as that stick. The Beatles did. Morrison did. Hendrix did. I can't see how the result would have been anything different than Brian would have died long before Carl or Dennis and the Beach Boys would have imploded shortly after that.

I think this whole idea that "the Beach Boys weren't cool" is an idea born AFTER the whole SMiLE/Monterey fiasco ruined their image and it has stuck ever since. My point is, had SMiLE beaten Pepper to the punch and been debuted live at Monterey there's a good chance they might have been cool. Maybe Pepper still outsells it, but anyone with good taste can hear how much better SMiLE is in every way over Pepper.

As good as SMILE might have been, The Beatles still would have run it out of town just like Star Wars ran out whatever little movie was playing at the local cinema in 1977! .... They were The Beatles!!!! and Pepper sounded like a band and had Ringo bashing away and lots of tasty guitar action and just enough "experimentation" to get the job done! And lyrics that people could groove on.

And The Beach Boys were lame, square dorks from day one ........ excepting Dennis of course, but he was still a dork by association.... I think the biggest F*ck up was not having the boys playing on all the records for at least a while longer.... THAT would have possibly gotten them the right sort of "cred"

It's my understanding that the BBs were about equal in stature to the Beatles UNTIL the fateful Summer of Love. Not some obscure movie to Star Wars. Pepper may have outsold SMiLE no matter what, but I think the artists, industry people and hippies with taste would've regarded SMiLE as the superior work it undeniably is, and over time I don't think it's farfetched to think SMiLE's reputation would've eclipsed Pepper's.

"Industry people and hippies with taste" .... Yes, but you're talking about (realistically) the same amount of people who went gaga over Pet Sounds at the time.

And your point is?

That the Beach Boys never were on equal footing with the Beatles when it came to fanbase and power.

Pet Sounds sold well and charted 3 (or is it 4?) singles and could've sold better had Capitol backed it better. The Beach Boys may not have been #1 but they weren't an out-for-count, hopelessly distant 2nd either. It was pretty close up until mid-67.

[pixletwin]

Well that is how Mike certainly would like you to remember it... I think that was at least true if you happened to vote in the melody maker poll or whatever it was that he always cites.  

In 1966 the Beatles girlie-girl fan base was waning and the Beach Boys were picking up more hip fans. But to say the two were on equal footing )with regards to fanbase/power) is a gross exaggeration.

I wasn't alive so I'm going by second/third/fourth hand sources.

Still, the world was ready for psychedelic rock in 1967. The Beatles as you said were cooling down while Brian was on top of the world in early 67. Pepper's release at just the right time, coupled with SMiLE's failure is what reversed those fortunes and forever cemented the idea that the Beatles were cool and the Boys were behind. Had SMiLE come out, especially first who's to say what could've happened. But this idea that SMiLE was doomed to fail no matter what is just straight up WRONG as far as I can see.

I haven't seen anyone state that SMiLE was doomed to fail. I think it just wouldn't have made the tsunami splash in the music scene that you seem to think it would.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Well that is how Mike certainly would like you to remember it... I think that was at least true if you happened to vote in the melody maker poll or whatever it was that he always cites.  

In 1966 the Beatles girlie-girl fan base was waning and the Beach Boys were picking up more hip fans. But to say the two were on equal footing )with regards to fanbase/power) is a gross exaggeration.

I wasn't alive so I'm going by second/third/fourth hand sources.

Still, the world was ready for psychedelic rock in 1967. The Beatles as you said were cooling down while Brian was on top of the world in early 67. Pepper's release at just the right time, coupled with SMiLE's failure is what reversed those fortunes and forever cemented the idea that the Beatles were cool and the Boys were behind. Had SMiLE come out, especially first who's to say what could've happened. But this idea that SMiLE was doomed to fail no matter what is just straight up WRONG as far as I can see.

I haven't seen anyone state that SMiLE was doomed to fail. I think it just wouldn't have made the tsunami splash in the music scene that you seem to think it would.

I've seen quite a few people on these boards state with unwavering certainty that it would've flopped. I think at best, it would've stolen Pepper's thunder and become the #1, unofficial anthem of that pivotal summer. At worst, it would've been Pet Sounds 2.0--a modest, if disappointing, success that grows in stature over the years and eventually is recognized for the masterpiece it is. Either way, the music world would've been better for it.

[pixletwin]

I've seen quite a few people on these boards state with unwavering certainty that it would've flopped. I think at best, it would've stolen Pepper's thunder and become the #1, unofficial anthem of that pivotal summer. At worst, it would've been Pet Sounds 2.0--a modest, if disappointing, success that grows in stature over the years and eventually is recognized for the masterpiece it is. Either way, the music world would've been better for it.

This is my opinion of what could have happened.

But the problem really isn't release dates or fan base loyalty. Or potential record sales.

The problem is Brian had painted himself into a corner which, in 1967, was impossible for him to have escaped. That is the saddest fact of all and it makes all the speculations of "what if" and "what could have been" nothing more than a frustrating exercise in considering impossibilities.

Brian was as likely to have finished SMiLE in 1967 as he was to have flown to the moon.

[SMiLE Brian]

I think SMiLE would be remembered as a part of the pack of great albums that came out in 1967. But it wouldn't be mentioned in the category of pepper.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think SMiLE would be remembered as a part of the pack of great albums that came out in 1967. But it wouldn't be mentioned in the category of pepper.

I'm sure it would have gotten many a countless "hindsight" reevaluation.

Or maybe it would have caught a wave and still be sitting on the top of the world?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I've seen quite a few people on these boards state with unwavering certainty that it would've flopped. I think at best, it would've stolen Pepper's thunder and become the #1, unofficial anthem of that pivotal summer. At worst, it would've been Pet Sounds 2.0--a modest, if disappointing, success that grows in stature over the years and eventually is recognized for the masterpiece it is. Either way, the music world would've been better for it.

This is my opinion of what could have happened.

But the problem really isn't release dates or fan base loyalty. Or potential record sales.

The problem is Brian had painted himself into a corner which, in 1967, was impossible for him to have escaped. That is the saddest fact of all and it makes all the speculations of "what if" and "what could have been" nothing more than a frustrating exercise in considering impossibilities.

Brian was as likely to have finished SMiLE in 1967 as he was to have flown to the moon.

I disagree. I think he was closer than even he realized. As I said, the main thing that killed it was his indecisiveness and shift in focus from album to single. SMiLE>Pet Sounds, but H&V was never gonna top GV. Brian focused on the impossible project, not the more reasonable one. All he had to do was focus on a sequence, record some more vocals and (and this is the hard one) edit the tapes together. A lot of work? Oh yeah. But had those crucial 4 months of '67 been focused on the whole album, not the search for an impossibly brilliant follow up single...who knows.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think SMiLE would be remembered as a part of the pack of great albums that came out in 1967. But it wouldn't be mentioned in the category of pepper.

I'm sorry, but I think that's straight BS. The music speaks for itself. GV was a revolutionary single, PS was a critical darling. The BBs were a household name. No way would SMiLE have been dismissed to that extent.