Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[drbeachboy]

No need for Mike to apologize here. He, as is the rest of the band, are entitled to have an opinion, or at the very least not like every single song presented to them. Now, had it been Mike's decision for Brian to record in a modular fashion, then maybe you might have a point.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons" and "contributing factors"... and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

Eeek! .... Did Mike wear a Michael Myers mask while in the studio in order to terrify Brian? ..... Maybe so! We just don't know!

Mike might have had an attitude, but Brian had power and power trumps attitude!

It wasn't like Mike was there even half the time Brian was working on SMILE stuff. He came in to do his vocals and got the hell out. I think you're agonizing over Mike/SMILE more than Brian and Mike combined ever have! ....Do you really think Brian was working away on something as complex as Surf's Up all the while worrying and worrying why Mike's shoulders were hunched a particular way or if his smile was really a smirk or his smirk a smile? No, I highly doubt it..... Mike's opinion was very low on the list of Brian's priorities.

Mike's role as the antagonist has definitely been overstated over the years but we can't rule his disapproval out entirely. Fact is, Brian/VDP have repeatedly said he didn't like what they were doing. Not Murry didn't like it, not Capitol didn't like it...but MIKE didn't like it. So there has to be some significance there. Only Brian had authority to scrape SMiLE, no ones debating that. But I'd bet my life Mike did more than just ask "Hey Van, old buddy, mind telling me what this line means, please?"

Once again, total speculation (as for your last point) ........ Problem here is, we're getting into stuff we simply can't ever know! .... If you want to assume Brian was deeply hurt and unmotivated by Mike, you're going to think that, but you can't prove it in any sort of way, therefore there is nothing to be gained other than talking about it and stating the same opinion over and over and over and over and over.....

That's all we have to go on is speculation. I don't think it's so much that Brian was deeply hurt be Mike and that single handedly derailed the project. More like, Brian had doubts of VDP's lyrics, after Van left there was no scope of the big picture anymore, etc, etc, we all know all the stuff going on...and then the BBs themselves sans Dennis had their own doubts about many of the songs, which was the final straw.

Like, you've recorded this complex album that can fit together a million ways, you're not sure which way you like best, there's no collaborator to focus you, the Beatles got there first, you're dealing with Carl getting drafted, lawsuit with Capitol, you don't think they're going to promote it well, it could be a costly flop, etc, etc.... And your own band doesn't even really like it. So why bother?

[Andrew G. Doe]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons" and "contributing factors"... and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

Eeek! .... Did Mike wear a Michael Myers mask while in the studio in order to terrify Brian? ..... Maybe so! We just don't know!

Mike might have had an attitude, but Brian had power and power trumps attitude!

It wasn't like Mike was there even half the time Brian was working on SMILE stuff. He came in to do his vocals and got the hell out. I think you're agonizing over Mike/SMILE more than Brian and Mike combined ever have! ....Do you really think Brian was working away on something as complex as Surf's Up all the while worrying and worrying why Mike's shoulders were hunched a particular way or if his smile was really a smirk or his smirk a smile? No, I highly doubt it..... Mike's opinion was very low on the list of Brian's priorities.

Mike's role as the antagonist has definitely been overstated over the years but we can't rule his disapproval out entirely. Fact is, Brian/VDP have repeatedly said he didn't like what they were doing. Not Murry didn't like it, not Capitol didn't like it...but MIKE didn't like it. So there has to be some significance there. Only Brian had authority to scrape SMiLE, no ones debating that. But I'd bet my life Mike did more than just ask "Hey Van, old buddy, mind telling me what this line means, please?"

Once again, total speculation (as for your last point) ........ Problem here is, we're getting into stuff we simply can't ever know! .... If you want to assume Brian was deeply hurt and unmotivated by Mike, you're going to think that, but you can't prove it in any sort of way, therefore there is nothing to be gained other than talking about it and stating the same opinion over and over and over and over and over.....

That's all we have to go on is speculation. I don't think it's so much that Brian was deeply hurt be Mike and that single handedly derailed the project. More like, Brian had doubts of VDP's lyrics, after Van left there was no scope of the big picture anymore, etc, etc, we all know all the stuff going on...and then the BBs themselves sans Dennis had their own doubts about many of the songs, which was the final straw.

Like, you've recorded this complex album that can fit together a million ways, you're not sure which way you like best, there's no collaborator to focus you, the Beatles got there first, you're dealing with Carl getting drafted, lawsuit with Capitol, you don't think they're going to promote it well, it could be a costly flop, etc, etc.... And your own band doesn't even really like it. So why bother?

Well put, Mujan! I think that's a close approximation ....... I happen to suspect that a lack or overall road-map/final picture was what finally undid SMILE.... With that lacking, it would have been that much harder to communicate the thing to anyone else who might have been able to help.

[CenturyDeprived]

Don't you have family or real people in your life that you can demand apologies from, or isn't there a friend or family member you might need to apologize to for something you did 50 years ago?

The last thing Mike needs to worry about are fanboys who "hate" him because of something he and his cousin got over decades ago....

As for Beautiful Dreamer/Brian/VDP saying "Mike didn't like it': ..... what do we usually have to say about people who are responsible for something (outside of Beach Boys fandom where common sense has value) yet blame others for their mistakes or for dropping the ball?

If I ever get an inkling that I've hurt someone's feelings (particularly a family member), I will absolutely try to make an apology, or do what I can to acknowledge their feelings. Especially if it's a person that I interact with on a regular basis. That is key.

And I’ve been the fortunate recipient of having people occasionally apologize to me when they’ve come to grips with something they feel they might wish that they’d acted in a different way at the time. Does this happen every time? No, of course not. But if there is hurt feelings/resentment, an apology could only help. The worst that could happen is nothing.

And if you think the “last thing” he and his family have to worry about is fanboys… well, I give you exhibits A, B, and C of continuing instances of rabidly blind, vicious haters on facebook, not to mention entire blogs dedicated to hating Mike – which clearly have hurt Mike’s own family because they have felt compelled to speak out. I don’t think it’s in any way, shape or form a non-issue for them.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons" and "contributing factors"... and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

Eeek! .... Did Mike wear a Michael Myers mask while in the studio in order to terrify Brian? ..... Maybe so! We just don't know!

Mike might have had an attitude, but Brian had power and power trumps attitude!

It wasn't like Mike was there even half the time Brian was working on SMILE stuff. He came in to do his vocals and got the hell out. I think you're agonizing over Mike/SMILE more than Brian and Mike combined ever have! ....Do you really think Brian was working away on something as complex as Surf's Up all the while worrying and worrying why Mike's shoulders were hunched a particular way or if his smile was really a smirk or his smirk a smile? No, I highly doubt it..... Mike's opinion was very low on the list of Brian's priorities.

Mike's role as the antagonist has definitely been overstated over the years but we can't rule his disapproval out entirely. Fact is, Brian/VDP have repeatedly said he didn't like what they were doing. Not Murry didn't like it, not Capitol didn't like it...but MIKE didn't like it. So there has to be some significance there. Only Brian had authority to scrape SMiLE, no ones debating that. But I'd bet my life Mike did more than just ask "Hey Van, old buddy, mind telling me what this line means, please?"

Once again, total speculation (as for your last point) ........ Problem here is, we're getting into stuff we simply can't ever know! .... If you want to assume Brian was deeply hurt and unmotivated by Mike, you're going to think that, but you can't prove it in any sort of way, therefore there is nothing to be gained other than talking about it and stating the same opinion over and over and over and over and over.....

That's all we have to go on is speculation. I don't think it's so much that Brian was deeply hurt be Mike and that single handedly derailed the project. More like, Brian had doubts of VDP's lyrics, after Van left there was no scope of the big picture anymore, etc, etc, we all know all the stuff going on...and then the BBs themselves sans Dennis had their own doubts about many of the songs, which was the final straw.

Like, you've recorded this complex album that can fit together a million ways, you're not sure which way you like best, there's no collaborator to focus you, the Beatles got there first, you're dealing with Carl getting drafted, lawsuit with Capitol, you don't think they're going to promote it well, it could be a costly flop, etc, etc.... And your own band doesn't even really like it. So why bother?

Well put, Mujan! I think that's a close approximation ....... I happen to suspect that a lack or overall road-map/final picture was what finally undid SMILE.... With that lacking, it would have ben that much harder to communicate the thing to anyone else who might have been able to help.

I'm of the opinion that it was dead by 12/66. Whether some big event or Brian of his own volition decided to shift attention to the single...it was this choice and (imho) waste of time that doomed any chance of SMiLE getting finished on time. By April/May, when it was clear they wouldn't beat Pepper, the modular approach was scrapped and Brian tried to be first in a new race--minimalism, with Smiley. Ironically, this one was too far ahead of the curve and was also a disappointment.

[CenturyDeprived]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

How earth do you know Mike's body language/attitude was ect. was at an all-time high?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

No one's claiming there was no resentment coming from Mike.... To make such a claim would require us to know Mike and talk to Mike or have been there in the room. Same goes for the opposite claim.

[CenturyDeprived]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

How earth do you know Mike's body language/attitude was ect. was at an all-time high?

I don’t know it as fact, but I think it’s reasonable to assume that his fear of being nixed from the major co-writer of the band on a largely permanent basis more than likely colored his tone. Again, having been in the position myself in the past where I’ve had badly-communicating bandmates with musical differences bursting out of them, IMO it’s reasonable to assume that the bigger those musical differences got (not to mention the more threatened the person likely felt), the more it would show in how they acted. None of us can *know* for sure without having been there. What we’re all doing here is taking educated guesses.

[CenturyDeprived]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

How earth do you know Mike's body language/attitude was ect. was at an all-time high?

I don’t know it as fact, but I think it’s reasonable to assume that his fear of being nixed from the major co-writer of the band on a largely permanent basis more than likely colored his tone. Again, having been in the position myself in the past where I’ve had badly-communicating bandmates with musical differences bursting out of them, IMO it’s reasonable to assume that the bigger those musical differences got (not to mention the more threatened the person likely felt), the more it would show in how they acted. None of us can *know* for sure without having been there. What we’re all doing here is taking educated guesses.

So, you're talking about yourself really, rather than Mike?

BTW, it is never really reasonable to assume anything in life.... Especially if you're going to use assumptions to go around drawing conclusions.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

= SmileySmile = BWPS = The Smile Sessions!

I'd say we've been given plenty of awesomeness as fans 

[CenturyDeprived]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

How earth do you know Mike's body language/attitude was ect. was at an all-time high?

I don’t know it as fact, but I think it’s reasonable to assume that his fear of being nixed from the major co-writer of the band on a largely permanent basis more than likely colored his tone. Again, having been in the position myself in the past where I’ve had badly-communicating bandmates with musical differences bursting out of them, IMO it’s reasonable to assume that the bigger those musical differences got (not to mention the more threatened the person likely felt), the more it would show in how they acted. None of us can *know* for sure without having been there. What we’re all doing here is taking educated guesses.

So, you're talking about yourself really, rather than Mike?

BTW, it is never really reasonable to assume anything in life.... Especially if you're going to use assumptions to go around drawing conclusions.

Well, I'm basically (as you, or anyone else here) relating my own experiences of human interaction and how they would ideally be applied to another circumstance. The truth is, if we didn't do that, then we'd never ever discuss any motivations of any band or any person other than ourselves, because "we weren't there at the time".  I'm certainly aware that my experiences are not identical to the circumstances which we are discussing. Please do not imply that I somehow have them confused. That's insulting.

But if people are asking for justification for why I would think a certain way, I'll say that personal experience, combined with lots and lots of reading about the given topic we are discussing, have led me to make my own conclusions (which as I've said before, are only IMO).

Again, IMO, irregardless of if you or others think that anything is/was even remotely worthy of apologizing for... I think that it could be surmised that a bit, just a little teeny tiny bit of sincere regret for having hurt feelings or having been any kind of contributing factor (even if such a statement were to have been done just for Mike wanting to be the bigger person), had it been shown in an interview at some point, maybe in an interview some decades back... could have made a notable difference in terms of diminishing modern day haters. The bilnd haters, IMO, feed on the man's complete, 110% lack of having really addressed an ounce of his role (or even his perceived role) in this, at any point in history.

[CenturyDeprived]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

= SmileySmile = BWPS = The Smile Sessions!

I'd say we've been given plenty of awesomeness as fans 

Well, yeah. We have. Nobody's arguing that. We're very lucky to have what we have.

[CenturyDeprived]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

That's basically an accurate math problem for this situation we're discussing.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

That's basically an accurate math problem for this situation we're discussing.

I still kinda really suspect we'd have gotten Wild Honey next even if SMILE had come out as intended..... Maybe a Wild Honey with more wrecking crew cats, but Wild Honey nonetheless... What do you guys think?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

= SmileySmile = BWPS = The Smile Sessions!

I'd say we've been given plenty of awesomeness as fans 

The one who got the short end of the stick was Brian, sadly. If only we had vocals to Look/CIFOTM verses/Worms and a complete Surf's Up I would be happy. But Brian deserved to be seen as the bringer of psychedelic rock to the mainstream. It shouldve been SMiLE at #1 on the charts and Brian as the King of Pop, not the Beatles. I'll always be sad the world missed out on the message when it was most receptive to such a thing...and got the second tier Pepper instead:/

[CenturyDeprived]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly. 

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

= SmileySmile = BWPS = The Smile Sessions!

I'd say we've been given plenty of awesomeness as fans 

The one who got the short end of the stick was Brian, sadly. If only we had vocals to Look/CIFOTM verses/Worms and a complete Surf's Up I would be happy. But Brian deserved to be seen as the bringer of psychedelic rock to the mainstream. It shouldve been SMiLE at #1 on the charts and Brian as the King of Pop, not the Beatles. I'll always be sad the world missed out on the message when it was most receptive to such a thing...and got the second tier Pepper instead:/

+1

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

= SmileySmile = BWPS = The Smile Sessions!

I'd say we've been given plenty of awesomeness as fans  

The one who got the short end of the stick was Brian, sadly. If only we had vocals to Look/CIFOTM verses/Worms and a complete Surf's Up I would be happy. But Brian deserved to be seen as the bringer of psychedelic rock to the mainstream. It shouldve been SMiLE at #1 on the charts and Brian as the King of Pop, not the Beatles. I'll always be sad the world missed out on the message when it was most receptive to such a thing...and got the second tier Pepper instead:/

I agree, but The Beach Boys have still endured in a way that psychedelic rock hasn't.....

And was Brian given the short end of the stick, or did he take the short end??

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

That's basically an accurate math problem for this situation we're discussing.

I still kinda really suspect we'd have gotten Wild Honey next even if SMILE had come out as intended..... Maybe a Wild Honey with more wrecking crew cats, but Wild Honey nonetheless... What do you guys think?

I'd like to think we'd get a SMiLE 2 with all the blossoming outtakes from SMiLE reworked as full tracks but in a Smiley-esque stripped down style. So basically, Smiley but with new songs instead of HV/VT/Wind Chimes, etc.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

= SmileySmile = BWPS = The Smile Sessions!

I'd say we've been given plenty of awesomeness as fans  

The one who got the short end of the stick was Brian, sadly. If only we had vocals to Look/CIFOTM verses/Worms and a complete Surf's Up I would be happy. But Brian deserved to be seen as the bringer of psychedelic rock to the mainstream. It shouldve been SMiLE at #1 on the charts and Brian as the King of Pop, not the Beatles. I'll always be sad the world missed out on the message when it was most receptive to such a thing...and got the second tier Pepper instead:/

I agree, but The Beach Boys have still endured in a way that psychedelic rock hasn't.....

And was Brian given the short end of the stick, or did he take the short end??

Yes and no. They're not "cool" but they've persevered. They could've been so much more though had SMiLE come out. Smiley and no Monterey made them seem lame and behind the times, and you could argue their image in the mainstream media has never completely recovered.

I'd argue that Brian knew scrapping SMiLE was an artistic mistake, but for a variety of personal reasons and the overwhelming desire to be revolutionary, he shelved it.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

By the Smile sessions, Brian had known Mike as a band member for five years and as a cousin for about 24 years. I may be off track here but I'm guessing Brian had a pretty good handle on Mike's body language, SOH and wind-up ability... just as Mike did on Brian's.

Sorry Orville, it won't fly.  

IMHO - I’d simply dispute that by saying that the body language/attitude, etc. was at an all time high of how much it would have impacted Brian, because there’s no way I can conceive that Mike had any reason to have been as disgruntled with the artistic happenings as he was during this particular project. Plus – the other circumstances were weighing Brian down like never before too. A compounding effect that was too much. Just because Brian was “familiar” with Mike’s interpersonal communication styles on previous projects, this project was in unarguably in a class of its own, and I’m sure that Mike gave off vibes that were stronger than ever before.

Plus, Brian was incredibly unstable based on the stories told of him at the time. He was irrationally afraid of Fire, Siegel's girlfriend and Anderle's painting of him. It's possible Mike's bad attitude (and to argue that there was no resentment coming from Mike is just as biased as to claim he killed SMiLE, imo) was magnified in Brian's mind and became more of an issue than it really was.

That's certainly possible too. I'm sure that drugs will magnify a person's perceptions of another person's hostility. Or at the very least it could impair their ability to deal with the other person's hostility in a manner that they would have been able to if they were not stoned.

Mental Illness+Drugs+Real Life Issues+Creative Differences-VDP= No SMiLE

That's basically an accurate math problem for this situation we're discussing.

I still kinda really suspect we'd have gotten Wild Honey next even if SMILE had come out as intended..... Maybe a Wild Honey with more wrecking crew cats, but Wild Honey nonetheless... What do you guys think?

I'd like to think we'd get a SMiLE 2 with all the blossoming outtakes from SMiLE reworked as full tracks but in a Smiley-esque stripped down style. So basically, Smiley but with new songs instead of HV/VT/Wind Chimes, etc.

Here lies the problem, I feel, with a lot of Beach Boys fandom..... People wanted another Pet Sounds, and people want another SMILE ... which was impossible with Brian/The Beach Boys .... Whether happy or sad, they moved on and never really ever repeated themselves until much much later.....