Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

Sheriff, that is the single most depressing thing I have ever read on this board--and also the most poignant. You speak a lot of truth, and I haven't always been receptive to it. Frankly, you've pissed me off a lot of times. But that was because it took a while, and it took a lot of learning on my part, to become familiar with the kind of nuance you bring to the history of this band. Bravo. If Mike truly feels that way, I think it goes a long way toward explaining why Mike Love has become the Mike Love he is today

I wrote this thread off soon after it appeared, but after reading it in its entirety, and especially after the last few posts, I think it has turned into a rather illuminating discussion.

Good job, everyone (especially GuitarFool). Let's not ruin it...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

Sheriff, that is the single most depressing thing I have ever read on this board--and also the most poignant. You speak a lot of truth, and I haven't always been receptive to it. Frankly, you've pissed me off a lot of times. But that was because it took a while, and it took a lot of learning on my part, to become familiar with the kind of nuance you bring to the history of this band. Bravo. If Mike truly feels that way, I think it goes a long way toward explaining why Mike Love has become the Mike Love he is today

I wrote this thread off soon after it appeared, but after reading it in its entirety, and especially after the last few posts, I think it has turned into a rather illuminating discussion.

Good job, everyone (especially GuitarFool). Let's not ruin it...

Don't get depressed. It is just one (particularly sharp and articulate) fan's musings, as is most of what goes down on this board. There is enough there in historical record to muse in a more positive direction as I have.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

Sheriff, that is the single most depressing thing I have ever read on this board--and also the most poignant. You speak a lot of truth, and I haven't always been receptive to it. Frankly, you've pissed me off a lot of times. But that was because it took a while, and it took a lot of learning on my part, to become familiar with the kind of nuance you bring to the history of this band. Bravo. If Mike truly feels that way, I think it goes a long way toward explaining why Mike Love has become the Mike Love he is today

I don't know whether to thank you or apologize to you.

[Mike's Beard]

"oh how couldn't the Beach Boys see that all Brian needed was unequivocal support?"

Did Brian have that in him for the others? Didn't he wash his hand when Mike was screwed by Murry? They were just human beings after all. I'm not prepared to demand apologies from Mike for being tactless or Brian for showing weakness. Surely they owe me squat.

It's very simple to me:

Dennis recorded two tracks for Surf's Up, decided to scrap them and scrapped they were. Life goes on.
Brian recorded most of a new album in 66/67, decided to scrap it and scrapped it was. Life goes on.

THANK YOU! A bunch of recordings got scrapped. Bands do this all the time. In the next 5 years the band put out roughly 75% of the great Smile material anyway.

[Ron]

On this subject I think there were about three things going on.


1. Mike just didn't like the music.  That's his opinion, and you don't have to apologize for opinions.


2. Whether or not Mike didn't like the music, Brian was fully in control, as always, and could have told Mike to go take a long walk off a short pier... as he did on Smiley Smile!  So the whole "Mike ruined smile" thing has never stood up to the fact that the album that came out next was even more weird.  The reason?  ... because Brian released whatever he wanted, Mike had no control over it.  Therefore he couldn't have possibly been the reason Smile was canned.  Brian decided what came out and what didn't.... Brian at the time was in a bad place, and ultimately the blame for the album not being released rests 100% on Brian's shoulders since he was essentially the sole creator and custodian of it! 

3. Finally, Brian was being very irresponsible at the time, and drugs certainly had something to do with that, and mental illness as well.  Unfortunately, the baby is often thrown out with the bath water when people let others down.  Brian's irresponsibility was (in ways) letting his family and his bandmates down... so everything he was doing was being looked at with skepticism.  It was very easy for Mike to blame the music on Brian being on drugs and to not take it seriously, because Brian was in a place where he wasn't reliable and wasn't trustworthy.   Every addict goes through this, at the time Brian wasn't really an addict but was having issues with his entire family, the band, the record label and his wife for what they felt was his irresponsible behavior.  Brian could have cured cancer and the band would have been skeptical. 

[Ron]

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and this is my opinion. I think for the most part, Mike feels vindicated about a lot of things and a lot of his choices -- both in his music career and in his life. And, now that I write it, vindicated isn't the best word to use, maybe satisfied is a better term. No, satisfied isn't right either. How about content? Content with his choices, life choices. Mike has seen first hand, hell, he experienced first hand, what happened to Brian and Dennis, the tragedy that was their lives and careers. He's seen bands come and go, rock stars die too young, and other rock stars/musicans broke - and broken. For most of Mike's 72 years, he's been healthy and happy. He has every material thing in the world that he ever dreamed of, and, now, it appears he is surrounded by a loving wife and family. I mean, when you think about it, what more could a man want?

To address specifically Mike's Beach Boys-related regrets, I feel very strongly about two areas. I always felt that Mike felt they blew it with the trifecta of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends. The Beach Boys went from arguably the second most popular band in the world in 1966, to, in three short years, a band let go by their record company, a corporation near bankruptcy, near empty concert halls, and band members/family members splintering. Brian was regressing to the point of contributing about 2-3 songs (or 8-9 minutes of music) a year, Dennis was releasing solo records, Bruce left, and Carl Wilson became the band's producer almost by default. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And, basically they never recovered. Mike made the statement in a documentary, and while he was oversimplifying and not 100% accurate, his statement about "Heroes And Villains" being Brian's last dynamic production - and that was in 1967 - is a pretty powerful statement. And, in many ways, ways that I'm not prepared to debate, that one statement tells you a lot about the career of The Beach Boys.

The other "big regret" that I think still haunts Mike to this day is that his songwriting partnership with Brian Wilson essentially ended in 1980 - 33 years ago. They were only 40 years old. I don't think Mike ever envisioned the day when he would NOT record albums - ALBUMS - with Brian. But, that's what happened. I think Brian's solo career silently killed Mike. Yeah, Mike made the occasional negative comment, but he always had to say things like "Brian's doing his thing now, but we always have a seat available and the door is always open" to remain optimistic. I always thought that Mike was thinking "I hope this is Brian's last solo album and he gives this solo thing up". But, Brian never did; Brian has had a 27 year solo career, and Mike recorded one Beach Boys' album in 20 years. Mike's songwriting years with Brian have now become ancient history. I used to think that Mike would give or do anything - anything - to work with Brian. And I was wrong. Mike now has his "demands", and I think Mike has his demands because he was deeply disappointed, devastated, and I'll even say shocked that he never again worked on an album's worth of songs after Keeping' The Summer Alive. Yeah, "Kokomo" is part of that, too, but I think Mike harbors the regret of what could've been - post 1980. Wasted years of possible Beach Boys' albums, possible hit singles. 33 years, that's a large part of Mike and Brian's adult life. Mike now views his songwriting partnership with Brian as a part of rock & roll history, but the optimism of future collaborations seems to have disappeared, for a lot of reasons that have been debated ad nauseam. Yeah, I think that's a huge regret.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Mike.  I feel like I have a similar personality... and I think you're dead on.  Mike is a very proud guy, stupidly proud, but he's also right about almost everything.  He knows it, and he's basically a right-fighter.  That doesn't mean he doesn't have any love for Brian or his family, of course he does... but I think it seriously pains him to look back and see all their missed opportunities.  I don't think a day goes by that he doesn't think fondly, and sadly, of all three of his cousins.  Unfortunately he's handled things in such a harsh, heavy handed manner over the years that a lot of people think he's an ass, but I honestly don't think he cares about that.  I doubt he regrets anything he's done, but like you said I think he regrets a lot of things that have happened, and not happened. 




BTW, you can see Mike and his stupid pride all the time if you pay attention.  Look at the story that was told about how "Spring Vacation" was written, it speaks VOLUMES about what the whole deal is.  This is how I understand it:

The song started out as a gospel tinged song that Brian wrote for Carl to sing on.  He kept goading Carl to sing on it, Carl was unable to and apparently Brian and Carl's last conversation centered around the song, and Carl explaining to Brian that he was going to die before he got the opportunity to sing on it. 

Years later, the boys reunite, and Brian's been hoarding songs for years for them to sing.  Mike's been wanting to write music with Brian since 1980.  Mike pesters Brian, Brian reluctantly gives Mike his baby, certainly one of his most cherished, unfinished songs, the song Carl was supposed to sing on, and Mike writes the lyrics for it. 

Mike, having visions of doing things the old way, just goes in the other room, takes long enough to meditate about it, and writes the lyrics in 5 minutes. 

So it seems to me, that for Brian to share that track with Mike was a huuuuuuuge act of charity, and to Mike, writing a song in 5 minutes was meant to prove to Brian that they could do things like they used to do in 1962. 

This is how these two love each other. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Does anyone else feel Mike secretly has a lot of regrets, like the collapse of smile and all the other things he get sh*t for. I personally do.

He comes across like a broken man in a lot of interviews, you can tell it in his voice.

He's too proud to ever admit it, but I think deep down he knows his band was *that close* to achieving eternal Beatles level praise had they played Monterey, released SMiLE and went in a progressive POB-esque direction in the seventies. Instead, they're regarded as a joke by many, remembered best for a few surf n cars hits from 50 years ago. And that's mostly his fault, due to not surporting his bandmates, wanting to play it safe and take the easy nostalgia money, and letting personal issues (resentment of being replaced as collaborator, not getting credited properly) fester and ruin relations with the others. Now, Dennis and Carl are dead, Al and Brian resent him and it's too late to fix it.

Now before I get blasted for posting this, no, I am not saying Mike's evil. He seems like a well meaning if somewhat abrasive guy. Deep down, I really do believe he wishes none of the drama had happened and time could've stayed still in 1965 with he and Brian together writing hits as a family. Problem is doing the same thing again and again was stiffling Brian creatively. Brian, I think, was too sensitive to say it upfront, and getting shoved aside hurt Mike.

It's a complex story, no clear cut villains or heroes, and no, Mike absolutely has nothing to appologize for SMiLE-wise except perhaps not being vocal about his hurt feelings to Brian himself and dealing with them properly. Its incredibly unfair to blame him for the nonrelease of SMiLE. That being said, he has done more than any other member to damage the band's reputation and with all the bad press he gets (warranted or not) I think he knows that, and feels ashamed for it.

I used to think his "Oh, I loved SMiLE! I just didn't like a few lyrics!" spiel was an attempt to save face. But he's stuck by that story, it makes sense (he went along with GV and Smiley which are just as weird, musically) and he admirably stuck to his guns and set the record straight in TSS' book. So, I've come to accept his story as true. I think perhaps his talking down of the lyrics was a way to get back as Brian's right hand man, but Brian was so sensitive he took it as an attack on the whole project itself. In a vacuum, this would be no big deal. Combined with everything else going on, it was just too much for Brian to handle.

Mike Love did not take pleasure in the album's cancellation. He just wanted to be a part of it. He's done a lot of douchey things over the years, made some questionable decisions regarding the band's direction, but SMiLE isn't his fault. I hope, for his sake, he's revealed his true feelings to Brian. And if he expressed all this publicly, no ego, no bullsh!t, no beating around the bush...I think he'd finally redeem himself to the public. So in a sense, I agree with the sentiment of this thread.

[Bicyclerider]

I for one don't buy the Mike Love "I just didn't understand a couple of lyrics" line concerning Smile.  It's much more complicated than that.  For one, he didn't like Van Dyke or Van Dyke's crowd of hangers-on that came with him and were monopolizing Brian's time (although that worked both ways - Brian was very demanding of Van and the crowd's time with his insistence on instant gratification of whatever whims came into his head).  Drugs were part of that dislike, and the fact they were encouraging what seemed to Mike as a very non commercial musical direction. 

Secondly he didn't like that Brian was writing the album with Van Dyke and he was once again excluded from songwriting royaties and his songwriting partnership with Brian.  This was nothing new, Roger Christian and Gary Usher also perceived a distinct animosity from Mike while they were collaborating with Brian.  So it's impossible to tease out just Mike's feelings about a couple of lyrics from his distaste and concern over the project overall and the influence this new group was having over Brian (drugs).

Starting with David Leaf there has been codified a Brianista view that if only everyone had been encouraging and supportive, Smile would have been released, Brian would have remained healthy and creative and continued to do groundbreaking work with Smile and post Smile projects.  While I might have found some truth in this view in the past, in fact this is extremely unlikely and there is no evidence whatsoever to support it.  Brian was on a self destructive path in 66/67, had already had a nervous breakdown, was hearing voices, and his drug use was exacerbating his developing mental illness.  Even IF Mike had been the most supportive Smile booster of the group, I have no doubt the Smile project was doomed to failure because of Brian, not because of external pressures but because of internal pressures.  So Mike has nothing to apologize for in that respect.  He had his opinion but that opinion was not a tipping point or anything close to it.

[Nicko1234]

He's too proud to ever admit it, but I think deep down he knows his band was *that close* to achieving eternal Beatles level praise had they played Monterey, released SMiLE and went in a progressive POB-esque direction in the seventies. Instead, they're regarded as a joke by many, remembered best for a few surf n cars hits from 50 years ago. And that's mostly his fault, due to not surporting his bandmates, wanting to play it safe and take the easy nostalgia money, and letting personal issues (resentment of being replaced as collaborator, not getting credited properly) fester and ruin relations with the others. Now, Dennis and Carl are dead, Al and Brian resent him and it's too late to fix it.

I definitely don`t think that Mike deep down believes that going in a POB style direction would have led to them, `achieving eternal Beatles level praise`. 

The Beach Boys would never have had the level of praise that The Beatles had and apart from one poll in a British newspaper (the exception that proves the rule) they never did have.

Mike may well believe that if Brian hadn`t abused drugs and succumbed to mental illness that they could have continued to be successful in the charts for many years which may well be true.

[KittyKat]

The fact that some people think "Vegetables" would have been the second single proves the lack of massive hit potential of "Smile." I don't think that song would have ever been a hit on AM or FM. "Heroes & Villains" was the potential hit single of the album and it didn't chart that well. I can't think of any other song on the album that would have been a big AM hit. Album oriented rock was still a year or two from taking off in a big way on FM. Even the Moody Blues "Days of Futures Passed" didn't become a big hit until it picked up play years after its release on AOR stations in the '70s.

[leggo of my ego]

He's too proud to ever admit it, but I think deep down he knows his band was *that close* to achieving eternal Beatles level praise had they played Monterey, released SMiLE and went in a progressive POB-esque direction in the seventies. Instead, they're regarded as a joke by many, remembered best for a few surf n cars hits from 50 years ago. And that's mostly his fault, due to not surporting his bandmates, wanting to play it safe and take the easy nostalgia money, and letting personal issues (resentment of being replaced as collaborator, not getting credited properly) fester and ruin relations with the others. Now, Dennis and Carl are dead, Al and Brian resent him and it's too late to fix it.

I definitely don`t think that Mike deep down believes that going in a POB style direction would have led to them, `achieving eternal Beatles level praise`.  

The Beach Boys would never have had the level of praise that The Beatles had and apart from one poll in a British newspaper (the exception that proves the rule) they never did have.

Mike may well believe that if Brian hadn`t abused drugs and succumbed to mental illness that they could have continued to be successful in the charts for many years which may well be true.

  WTH is "Beatles-level praise" anyway?? Wow that was pretty snarky to cover the NME poll, yeah that poll is the only benchmark to gauge who was most popular in England that year. The Beach Boys were almost always neck and neck with Fab Four - until that is the Beatles self destructed and the BB's kept chuging along.

[KittyKat]

The Beatles were more popular and had a higher hipness quotient in the USA than they did in Britain. America is a much bigger market than the UK.  More people and more $.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I for one don't buy the Mike Love "I just didn't understand a couple of lyrics" line concerning Smile.  It's much more complicated than that.  For one, he didn't like Van Dyke or Van Dyke's crowd of hangers-on that came with him and were monopolizing Brian's time (although that worked both ways - Brian was very demanding of Van and the crowd's time with his insistence on instant gratification of whatever whims came into his head).  Drugs were part of that dislike, and the fact they were encouraging what seemed to Mike as a very non commercial musical direction. 

Secondly he didn't like that Brian was writing the album with Van Dyke and he was once again excluded from songwriting royaties and his songwriting partnership with Brian.  This was nothing new, Roger Christian and Gary Usher also perceived a distinct animosity from Mike while they were collaborating with Brian.  So it's impossible to tease out just Mike's feelings about a couple of lyrics from his distaste and concern over the project overall and the influence this new group was having over Brian (drugs).

Starting with David Leaf there has been codified a Brianista view that if only everyone had been encouraging and supportive, Smile would have been released, Brian would have remained healthy and creative and continued to do groundbreaking work with Smile and post Smile projects.  While I might have found some truth in this view in the past, in fact this is extremely unlikely and there is no evidence whatsoever to support it.  Brian was on a self destructive path in 66/67, had already had a nervous breakdown, was hearing voices, and his drug use was exacerbating his developing mental illness.  Even IF Mike had been the most supportive Smile booster of the group, I have no doubt the Smile project was doomed to failure because of Brian, not because of external pressures but because of internal pressures.  So Mike has nothing to apologize for in that respect.  He had his opinion but that opinion was not a tipping point or anything close to it.

Very well said. I also used to buy into the "it's the band's fault for not supporting him enough!" story, but it really doesn't hold up when looking at the big picture. That being said, some of the "pro-Mike" counter-arguments are ridiculous as well. People act like just because he sang the songs he must have supported them and just because he never criticized them on tape he must have been fully, 100% on board with all things SMiLE. As always, the truth is in the middle, somewhere.

As you said, I don't think he liked VDP back then and probably felt threatened by him, artistically. VDP represented the future of pop music with his avant garde Bob Dylan/poetry style lyrics. I think deep down, Mike knew he needed Brian more than Brian needed him. And deep down, he knew he couldn't write a "Surf's Up" or "God Only Knows" of his own to compete with Brian's new lyricists. Perhaps if Brian had thrown him a song or two each time it would've placated him. But between getting only one song on PS and none on SMiLE he saw the writing on the wall.

I *do* believe him when he says he loved the music Brian was making. And as others have said, the fact that he was a-okay with GV and Smiley shows he wasn't opposed to new, progressive ideas. Yes, he said "don't f*** with the formula" and called SMiLE "acid alliteration." But I think both jabs are aimed at VDP and his lyrics specifically. By formula Mike meant that he and Brian had written great, popular songs together up to then so why change that dynamic? By dissing VDP's lyrics, I think he was hoping Brian would come to agree and ask Mike to rewrite them. Instead, it was the straw that broke the camel's back and caused Brian to quit the whole thing.

I agree that Brian's breakdown was inevitable but not necessarily that it had to come exactly when it did or that SMiLE's cancellation was destined to be part of it. Perhaps, after his irrational fear that Fire couldnt be released, there wouldn't be an Elements track. Perhaps it would have to be compromised from Brian's original vision, whatever that may have been. But there was more than enough material to release a kickass album that Spring. And had Brian not wasted so much time pointlessly making, remaking, and remixing H&V, recording crap like the Jasper Dailey songs, and set aside just one afternoon to record the missing vocals... Well, who knows.

Either way, long story short: SMiLE, at least some incarnation of it, was within reach. Brian's breakdown, indecisiveness and unproductiveness are the reason it wasn't to be. I believe Mike 100% when he says he loved the music but hated the lyrics. I speculate jealousy and resentment lead him to speak out against the project, but his part in the collapse of SMiLE is unfairly overstated. Almost to the point of outright slander. I'm not exactly a fan of Mike's behavior or idea of what the Beach Boys should be, but I genuinely feel bad for him in regards to the flack he gets for this. He's an easy scapegoat, I suppose.

[drbeachboy]

The fact that some people think "Vegetables" would have been the second single proves the lack of massive hit potential of "Smile." I don't think that song would have ever been a hit on AM or FM. "Heroes & Villains" was the potential hit single of the album and it didn't chart that well. I can't think of any other song on the album that would have been a big AM hit. Album oriented rock was still a year or two from taking off in a big way on FM. Even the Moody Blues "Days of Futures Passed" didn't become a big hit until it picked up play years after its release on AOR stations in the '70s.

While I absolutely agree with your overall assessment, I do disagree with you on Heroes & Villains' chart success. It's highest chart position was 12. That's not too bad, and it charted better than the more catchier tunes like Darlin' that came after.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

He's too proud to ever admit it, but I think deep down he knows his band was *that close* to achieving eternal Beatles level praise had they played Monterey, released SMiLE and went in a progressive POB-esque direction in the seventies. Instead, they're regarded as a joke by many, remembered best for a few surf n cars hits from 50 years ago. And that's mostly his fault, due to not surporting his bandmates, wanting to play it safe and take the easy nostalgia money, and letting personal issues (resentment of being replaced as collaborator, not getting credited properly) fester and ruin relations with the others. Now, Dennis and Carl are dead, Al and Brian resent him and it's too late to fix it.

I definitely don`t think that Mike deep down believes that going in a POB style direction would have led to them, `achieving eternal Beatles level praise`.  

The Beach Boys would never have had the level of praise that The Beatles had and apart from one poll in a British newspaper (the exception that proves the rule) they never did have.

Mike may well believe that if Brian hadn`t abused drugs and succumbed to mental illness that they could have continued to be successful in the charts for many years which may well be true.

  WTH is "Beatles-level praise" anyway?? Wow that was pretty snarky to cover the NME poll, yeah that poll is the only benchmark to gauge who was most popular in England that year. The Beach Boys were almost always neck and neck with Fab Four - until that is the Beatles self destructed and the BB's kept chuging along.

For better or worse, to John Q Public the Beatles are the greatest band ever and the Beach Boys are a bunch of out of touch old farts pretending to be 18. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's fair. But don't pretend you don't know what I mean, and don't lose sight of the overarching point of my post.

[CenturyDeprived]

Starting with David Leaf there has been codified a Brianista view that if only everyone had been encouraging and supportive, Smile would have been released, Brian would have remained healthy and creative and continued to do groundbreaking work with Smile and post Smile projects.  While I might have found some truth in this view in the past, in fact this is extremely unlikely and there is no evidence whatsoever to support it.  

Very well said. I also used to buy into the "it's the band's fault for not supporting him enough!" story, but it really doesn't hold up when looking at the big picture.

Here's the thing.

Lots and lots and lots of music fans (who aren't hardcores like us) just flat-out associate Mike Love with SMiLE's demise, and think that he is the main or only cause. Closely examining history reveals that this is a gross overstatement of the facts. The fact that the man is utterly, wholeheartedly and irrationally loathed by so many people is very unfair. It's basically extremism.

But... Mike Love uber defenders still baffles me, and will continue to baffle me, when they try to say that Mike's attitude wasn't a contributing factor of some sort. Hey - minimize the contributing nature if you must, say it was only a small little factor if that makes you feel better - but don't negate Mike from being *a* factor whatsoever. That is totally absurd.

That, IMO, is also a totally unfair, and extremist conclusion. Convincing one's self that this rewriting of history is somehow the truth does not magically "counter" the extremist anti-Mike Love vibrations that permeate the universe. Two wrong opinions don't make a right.

[leggo of my ego]

He's too proud to ever admit it, but I think deep down he knows his band was *that close* to achieving eternal Beatles level praise had they played Monterey, released SMiLE and went in a progressive POB-esque direction in the seventies. Instead, they're regarded as a joke by many, remembered best for a few surf n cars hits from 50 years ago. And that's mostly his fault, due to not surporting his bandmates, wanting to play it safe and take the easy nostalgia money, and letting personal issues (resentment of being replaced as collaborator, not getting credited properly) fester and ruin relations with the others. Now, Dennis and Carl are dead, Al and Brian resent him and it's too late to fix it.

I definitely don`t think that Mike deep down believes that going in a POB style direction would have led to them, `achieving eternal Beatles level praise`.  

The Beach Boys would never have had the level of praise that The Beatles had and apart from one poll in a British newspaper (the exception that proves the rule) they never did have.

Mike may well believe that if Brian hadn`t abused drugs and succumbed to mental illness that they could have continued to be successful in the charts for many years which may well be true.

  WTH is "Beatles-level praise" anyway?? Wow that was pretty snarky to cover the NME poll, yeah that poll is the only benchmark to gauge who was most popular in England that year. The Beach Boys were almost always neck and neck with Fab Four - until that is the Beatles self destructed and the BB's kept chuging along.

For better or worse, to John Q Public the Beatles are the greatest band ever and the Beach Boys are a bunch of out of touch old farts pretending to be 18. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's fair. But don't pretend you don't know what I mean, and don't lose sight of the overarching point of my post.

No, I wont argue with that, I know what you mean, but you dont know much of anything by that blanket statement. Depending on the age demographic the Beet-alls may be worshipped or despised. I am over fifty and my opinion of 90% of their music is "meh". And who cares what the general public thinks anyway? Judging by what the average American chooses for "entertainment" he has about the sense of a turnip and even less good taste. If we look at the readily available data for statistical "popuality" levels of the fanbase by record sales we see that both bands were fairly even until the Pet Sounds era - the time of the infamous NME poll. I really dont know who has sold the MOST records but seeing the Beatles had disbanded years before BBs went into their not so great years they quit releasing anything new since 1970. I think you have to measure greatness by several factors. But the old farts comment was just not right, dude. not right.

[leggo of my ego]

God, I just realized how old this thread is - its like been hashed out maybe to this point here.

 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

He's too proud to ever admit it, but I think deep down he knows his band was *that close* to achieving eternal Beatles level praise had they played Monterey, released SMiLE and went in a progressive POB-esque direction in the seventies. Instead, they're regarded as a joke by many, remembered best for a few surf n cars hits from 50 years ago. And that's mostly his fault, due to not surporting his bandmates, wanting to play it safe and take the easy nostalgia money, and letting personal issues (resentment of being replaced as collaborator, not getting credited properly) fester and ruin relations with the others. Now, Dennis and Carl are dead, Al and Brian resent him and it's too late to fix it.

I definitely don`t think that Mike deep down believes that going in a POB style direction would have led to them, `achieving eternal Beatles level praise`.  

The Beach Boys would never have had the level of praise that The Beatles had and apart from one poll in a British newspaper (the exception that proves the rule) they never did have.

Mike may well believe that if Brian hadn`t abused drugs and succumbed to mental illness that they could have continued to be successful in the charts for many years which may well be true.

  WTH is "Beatles-level praise" anyway?? Wow that was pretty snarky to cover the NME poll, yeah that poll is the only benchmark to gauge who was most popular in England that year. The Beach Boys were almost always neck and neck with Fab Four - until that is the Beatles self destructed and the BB's kept chuging along.

For better or worse, to John Q Public the Beatles are the greatest band ever and the Beach Boys are a bunch of out of touch old farts pretending to be 18. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's fair. But don't pretend you don't know what I mean, and don't lose sight of the overarching point of my post.

No, I wont argue with that, I know what you mean, but you dont know much of anything by that blanket statement. Depending on the age demographic the Beet-alls may be worshipped or despised. I am over fifty and my opinion of 90% of their music is "meh". And who cares what the general public thinks anyway? Judging by what the average American chooses for "entertainment" he has about the sense of a turnip and even less good taste. If we look at the readily available data for statistical "popuality" levels of the fanbase by record sales we see that both bands were fairly even until the Pet Sounds era - the time of the infamous NME poll. I really dont know who has sold the MOST records but seeing the Beatles had disbanded years before BBs went into their not so great years they quit releasing anything new since 1970. I think you have to measure greatness by several factors. But the old farts comment was just not right, dude. not right.

I agree with almost everything you just said. And just to clarify, I live the Beatles but think they're massively overrated, I don't think the BBs are old farts (but many people I know do, sadly) and the point of my post was preceisely that the Beach Boys were just as respected until 67 with the failure of the SMiLE sessions and no show at Monterey. Had those two things not happened, and the Boys not fallen back on their old hits for easy money, the band's reputation would be astronomically better today.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Starting with David Leaf there has been codified a Brianista view that if only everyone had been encouraging and supportive, Smile would have been released, Brian would have remained healthy and creative and continued to do groundbreaking work with Smile and post Smile projects.  While I might have found some truth in this view in the past, in fact this is extremely unlikely and there is no evidence whatsoever to support it.  

Very well said. I also used to buy into the "it's the band's fault for not supporting him enough!" story, but it really doesn't hold up when looking at the big picture.

Here's the thing.

Lots and lots and lots of music fans (who aren't hardcores like us) just flat-out associate Mike Love with SMiLE's demise, and think that he is the main or only cause. Closely examining history reveals that this is a gross overstatement of the facts. The fact that the man is utterly, wholeheartedly and irrationally loathed by so many people is very unfair. It's basically extremism.

But... Mike Love uber defenders still baffles me, and will continue to baffle me, when they try to say that Mike's attitude wasn't a contributing factor of some sort. Hey - minimize the contributing nature if you must, say it was only a small little factor if that makes you feel better - but don't negate Mike from being *a* factor whatsoever. That is totally absurd.

That, IMO, is also a totally unfair, and extremist conclusion. Convincing one's self that this rewriting of history is somehow the truth does not magically "counter" the extremist anti-Mike Love vibrations that permeate the universe. Two wrong opinions don't make a right.

Lets get one thing straight. I am *NOT* a Mike defender. I strongly disagree with much of his behavior over the years and his vision of the BBs as a beach themed nostalgia act and nothing more. The popular narrative that he killed SMiLE is just wrong though, and he does deserve to be defended against such unfair accusations.

I think if you read the rest of my post you'll see I'm trying to present a more nuanced view of how it sent down. I believe Mike liked Brian's music. I believe he could sense that Brian was done with him as a collaborator. I think petty jealousy clouded his judgement and caused him to speak out against a project he probably knew deep down (or nowadays with hindsight) was genius.

He didn't kill SMiLE, but yes, his lack of support was undeniably a factor in its nonrelease. Hell never admit it, but I think deep down he knows that, and he knows how much more respect the band would've commanded had it been finished and beaten Sgt Pepper to the punch. He doesn't owe us an apology or anything, but he does owe it to himself to deal with his feelings on the matter.

[CenturyDeprived]

Starting with David Leaf there has been codified a Brianista view that if only everyone had been encouraging and supportive, Smile would have been released, Brian would have remained healthy and creative and continued to do groundbreaking work with Smile and post Smile projects.  While I might have found some truth in this view in the past, in fact this is extremely unlikely and there is no evidence whatsoever to support it.  

Very well said. I also used to buy into the "it's the band's fault for not supporting him enough!" story, but it really doesn't hold up when looking at the big picture.

Here's the thing.

Lots and lots and lots of music fans (who aren't hardcores like us) just flat-out associate Mike Love with SMiLE's demise, and think that he is the main or only cause. Closely examining history reveals that this is a gross overstatement of the facts. The fact that the man is utterly, wholeheartedly and irrationally loathed by so many people is very unfair. It's basically extremism.

But... Mike Love uber defenders still baffles me, and will continue to baffle me, when they try to say that Mike's attitude wasn't a contributing factor of some sort. Hey - minimize the contributing nature if you must, say it was only a small little factor if that makes you feel better - but don't negate Mike from being *a* factor whatsoever. That is totally absurd.

That, IMO, is also a totally unfair, and extremist conclusion. Convincing one's self that this rewriting of history is somehow the truth does not magically "counter" the extremist anti-Mike Love vibrations that permeate the universe. Two wrong opinions don't make a right.

Lets get one thing straight. I am *NOT* a Mike defender. I strongly disagree with much of his behavior over the years and his vision of the BBs as a beach themed nostalgia act and nothing more. The popular narrative that he killed SMiLE is just wrong though, and he does deserve to be defended against such unfair accusations.

I think if you read the rest of my post you'll see I'm trying to present a more nuanced view of how it sent down. I believe Mike liked Brian's music. I believe he could sense that Brian was done with him as a collaborator. I think petty jealousy clouded his judgement and caused him to speak out against a project he probably knew deep down (or nowadays with hindsight) was genius.

He didn't kill SMiLE, but yes, his lack of support was undeniably a factor in its nonrelease. Hell never admit it, but I think deep down he knows that, and he knows how much more respect the band would've commanded had it been finished and beaten Sgt Pepper to the punch. He doesn't owe us an apology or anything, but he does owe it to himself to deal with his feelings on the matter.

I pretty much agree with everything you said above, with the exception of the part where you said he doesn't owe anybody an apology. Of course, rock stars/celebs don't "owe" anyone anything. They can do whatever they wanna do.

But for him to be an ostrich about the issue for decades, whine and complain about being misunderstood (and have his children/wife endure so much pain that they feel compelled to gush online about their own feelings), when all it would take/would have taken to have made the situation so much better would have been a small acknowledgement of "maybe I shouldn't have been quite as harsh as I might have been, or if Brian/VDP might have interpreted my tone as being harsh in a way that caused hurt feelings and helped make a bad situation worse,  I honestly regret if there were hurt feelings as a result"... well, it just is dumbfounding to me that he hasn't said something like this over the years, when it's so plainly obvious to me that a large swath of the extremist hatred against the man is directly related to his 110% absolute lack of self awareness to be able to acknowledge something like this in the slightest. He is his own worst enemy.

It’s. All. About. Stupid. Pride.

Why is M. Night Shyamalan hated with such a degree of extremism as he is? Besides his movies' quality decline, it seems to be because he steadfastly publicly clings to the idea that he is amazing, and doesn't seem to have any self awareness of acknowledging when he has f*cked up.  I could give a bunch of other similar examples too. While it's not an identical situation with Mike, still basically what I'm saying is that the public will really, REALLY grow to irrationally hate an artist on an extreme level, when they irrationally cling to pride and ignore (or refuse to acknowledge) some of the "tougher" issues at hand, as some sort of absurd ego defense mechanism.

I wonder if any of Mike's ex wives have ever suggested that he should say something like this, in some interview, at some point. Honestly. I'd like to think that there's a single person in his life who isn't a "yes man" or "yes woman" who would have tried to talk a small bit of sense into him.

[CenturyDeprived]

Well my answer would be no. Your premise sets it up as Mike has something to apologize for. There is no answer to your question unless one agrees with your premise. I don't.

At what point can it be said that a person, with an often sarcastic personality, who isn’t exactly known for tactfulness, can or cannot be “guilty” of hurting someone else’s feelings in a deep way?

Let’s take music and the actual people involved in this out of the equation for a moment.

What “evidence” does a person on this board need to arrive at the conclusion that, when reviewing a series of events where circumstance has brought two people with very different personalities together (not necessarily Brian and Mike – this could be two plumbers, a father and son, mother and daughter, etc etc)…that one of those people can possibly, potentially have an negative (and at times detrimentally negative) emotional effect on the other person with their words, tone of voice, and overall attitude?

Can it just be agreed (without applying this to the SMiLE saga), that this is something is possible that can happen between two people?

I ask because I myself have witnessed this type of interpersonal relationship thing happen between two people. In situations that have nothing to do with bands.

It does happen.

People can, unknowingly and unfortunately, effect other people in certain negative ways (sometimes VERY negative ways) *even when they don’t mean to*. Does that mean the person who affected the other person is ultimately “responsible” for all sorts of fallout and subsequent situations that the hurt person finds themselves in? It’s very hard to ascribe blame in a direct sense… but one thing is ab-so-friggin-lutely clear: the person who hurt the other person should acknowledge they might have possibly hurt someone by what they said and/or in the manner that it was said in, once it becomes clearly obvious that there were hurt feelings.

And by the way: Brian is guilty (in a different sense, since the situations are apples/oranges) of not properly apologizing to Mike for the credits screwjob.  Or maybe he said he was “sorry” at the time, but didn’t correct it - so he didn’t really apologize in a true sense.  Either way, Mike being hurt by the songwriting credit omissions is an established fact. Nobody is going to argue that. Despite that we can argue about specifics regarding why the crediting omissions happened, we cannot argue that Mike surely had hurt feelings as a result. Those feelings were real to Mike.

Well… the flipside of this coin is that Brian was hurt too by Mike’s words/actions during SMiLE. It’s an established fact, or to put it another way: Brian’s hurt feelings were real to Brian and are not something that we can argue/refute. We can nitpick and discuss all sorts of other factors like drugs, technology, etc etc… one can also make the argument that Mike “had every right” to say what he said by virtue of being a bandmate. But… once it can be agreed that hurt feelings were in some way, shape, or form permeating the atmosphere, it seems impossible to me that one can think that a very sensitive person’s interpretations/reactions to those feelings are of negligible concern.


What I want to know is, do the people who continue to 100% absolve Mike of any responsibility whatsoever, and say he has absolutely nothing at all, ever to feel sorry about in the slightest… do those people think that this same absolving of responsibility would apply to every non-Beach Boys-related situation/person on the planet? Do they think that no person can ever deeply hurt another person with words, and/or that the hurt person simply just has to “man up” and not take things so hard?

Or do they think that, “Well, Mike may have hurt Brian’s feelings, but so what? All he (maybe) did was hurt Brian’s feelings, and that has nothing to do with anything else.”

For the life of me, I cannot understand the psychology of thinking that way. I honestly, legitimately want to try and understand the way of thinking that leads people to the conclusion that Mike has nothing to apologize for or regret in his actions. I want to be enlightened if I’m wrong - maybe I’m just missing an essential component of human understanding, but it makes no sense to me.

Mike should 100% absolutely NOT be crucified like he has been for years. But - even his most ardent defenders should realize that his actions/tact/personality played *a* measureable factor (even a small one, if that’s your cup of tea) in why SMiLE didn’t pan out. Or… if you are of the belief that the project would have fallen apart due to other factors (thereby making the hurt feelings a non-issue when discussing the album’s demise), it STILL doesn’t mean that an iota of an apology or acknowledgement of responsibility shouldn’t still have publicly happened by the Lovester himself. He would ultimately have only *helped* himself in a big way if he would have done so, and he continues to hurt himself by having not done so.

[Cam Mott]

What is it you think Mike did to apologize for?

[alf wiedersehen]

I think a prerequisite for him assuming responsibility would be having the responsibility to assume in the first place.

[CenturyDeprived]

What is it you think Mike did to apologize for?

He’d ideally apologize for saying things at the time that unintentionally, inadvertently, deeply hurt somebody’s feelings. I’d hope for a DeLorean to go back in time about 47 years and have those words spoken then, but late is also better than never. Neither you nor I can know exactly, specifically what was said between Mike/Brian/VDP, nor the exact manner in which the words were said. But I don’t think it’s reaching to assume that the words, in all likelihood, were perceived by Brian/VDP as being a tactless, negative, and that they caused deeply hurt feelings, to say the least.

Did Mike have the “right” to say them, to speak his mind in the way he saw fit? Well, of course he did. It’s the USA, and you can pretty much say whatever you want (barring yelling “Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow”…err… “Fire” in a crowded movie theater)… but it is a truly big person who can find it in themselves to apologize - or express regret - for hurting another person’s feelings – even if hurt feelings weren't intended in the first place.

There would also hopefully be at least a tiny amount of acknowledgement/awareness of the fact that, no matter how small the words/sentiment were, that they potentially could have been taken the wrong way by Brian/VDP, and that although they were just words, they nonetheless may have been a contributing factor (however small) in stirring up a cloud of negativity/self-doubt in a very sensitive person.