Student Demonstration Time

[Iron Horse-Apples]

The war was a disaster for the USA and a catastrophe for the SE Asians.

But pretty good for 80's film directors and Smokey Robinson

[filledeplage]

And add Carl's conscientious objection to that list as well. A brave act, made even more humble by his "at least I had the money to fight this" remark.

I share your assessment of the Surf's Up album, but given the sacrifices made by the young Americans who answered the call, I don't know if I'd call Carl's actions particularly "brave".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6kgUnUHNrw

While I don't doubt that the soldiers who went to fight showed incredible bravery and sacrifice, the Vietnam war remains the most stupid, wrong-headed and pointless war the US has ever started (yes, even more stupid than Iraq) and Carl was absolutely right to refuse to take part. So I'd say 'principled' and/or 'noble' describes his actions better than 'brave'.

It really started in the 1950's and that area was part of the established French colonial empire.  Kennedy inherited the mess.  And, was, in part, at least over "communism" and they had a lucrative opium crop. Sound familiar? (Afghanistan)  But, the story is meritorious of study and, yes I agree that it was a bad move.  This would be Sandbox territory.   

Among the best books (I'm not a book reader!) I read, as a kid were by Dr. Tom Dooley who was a physician/humanitarian republished as a trilogy- entitled Three Great Books And, I guess what he did was distill the medical, political, social and economic situation from the vantage point of working as a doctor, in refugee camps.

They sort of served as a translation in lay persons' terms about a world we didn't understand at the time but needed a crash course on, and he had a simple but gripping way of telling the story; a book you just couldn't put down.  I guess he was a real educator.

The Three Great Books are: Deliver Us From Evil , The Edge of Tomorrow, and The Night They Burned the Mountain.

[TMinthePM]

Vietnam: A History by Stanley Karnow is the go to:

http://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-History-Stanley-Karnow/dp/0140265473/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1371993207&sr=1-1&keywords=stanley+karnow+-+vietnam+-+a+history

Oliver Stone got the grunts-eye view note perfect with Platoon.

Francis Ford Coppola the kaleidoscopic insanity.

Stallone's Rambo pix are comic book BS.

[filledeplage]

Vietnam: A History by Stanley Karnow is the go to:

http://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-History-Stanley-Karnow/dp/0140265473/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1371993207&sr=1-1&keywords=stanley+karnow+-+vietnam+-+a+history

Oliver Stone got the grunts-eye view note perfect with Platoon.

Francis Ford Coppola the kaleidoscopic insanity.

Stallone's Rambo pix are comic book BS.

While I have no doubt, Karnow did good journalism, Dooley, gave a bird's eye perspective as a "medical service provider" and at some point, had some "gay relationship scandal" thrown his way, which got him kicked out of the Navy.  I never had heard that, and read it just this morning.  I don't know about veracity, and often, when there is a story that the govt. doesn't want to get out, there are sexual misconduct allegations, such as with the wiki guy, Assange. 

At any rate, this guy served the people's medical needs with few or no supplies, and told a compelling story, not just as a story teller (which is what journalists do) but one compelled as an American and doctor/humanitarian, to tell the world about people that were generally unknown to Americans, who were his initial audience, with some degree of transparency. And, his work told of the plight of this nation's people caught between old colonialism and predatory "neighbors" looking to annex the vulnerable nation.

The music nexus (connection) is that there was a Kingston Trio hit, entitled,"Tom Dooley" which was unrelated to the doc, in 1958, at the height of his fame.  A #1 Billboard and is credited with the "folk boom" (Jardine) and is a Grammy HOF awardee. 

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Casualties Of War is another quality 'Nam flick, albeit a pretty horrifying one. It's a Brian de Palma film, with Sean Penn and Michael J Fox.

And of course Full Metal Jacket. Kubrick = legend.

[scooby1970]

I've always been a fan of "Student Demonstration Time". I think it ends side one of the Surf's Up album nicely, and brings a nice hard-core edge to an otherwise dark album.

Mark

[bluesno1fann]

Having given a fresh listen to SDT today, I can say that it's not quite as bad as made out to be. The lyrics are quite dated, and the music isn't bad but it's pretty much Riot In Cell Block #9.

I can safely say that SDT isn't the worst track off Surf's Up (though it is one of the weaker tracks). That dishonour goes to Take A Load Off Your Feet.
That being said, TALOYF fits Surf's Up better, and SDT would have been much better off as a non-album single.

[alf wiedersehen]

I dig SDT - mostly for Carl's guitar playing. He usually doesn't get to play like this and it's cool to hear him playing in this style.

[retrokid67]

I dig SDT - mostly for Carl's guitar playing. He usually doesn't get to play like this and it's cool to hear playing in this style.

Yup that was my favorite part too 

[bluesno1fann]

Yeah, Carl's guitar part is brilliant!
Mike's vocals is horrible on the other hand. Very obnoxious and nasal, could have been a whole lot better

[Andrew G. Doe]

Mike's lead was processed to be like that, as through a megaphone.

[Niko]

I've always liked his vocal on the song. I figured it would also be done through a megaphone live, kinda like what Roger Waters does now with Waiting for the Worms.

I dig the song too. It's groovy and adds a bit of variation to the album, in the best possible way.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

A song like STP coulda sat there all this time on any CSNY or Buffalo Springfield, or half the rock bands of the era's albums and gone by without much notice, but since this is the Beach Boy's, it's a lightening rod for debate....

I take this as a compliment to The Beach Boys, so all is well....

I happen to love the song.

[Smilin Ed H]

And they had a band member who refused to fight instead of just singing about it.

[TMinthePM]

Riot in Cell Block 9 would seem to have rolled off the tongue at that time as naturally as an apple falls from the tree. I think it was added to the live set in 1970.  I think they were performing it in France that year - there's a color video on YouTube I think, but am too lazy to double check. Anyway, it must have seemed a natural next step to rework the lyrics. And, if you think those lyrics are outdated I suggest you take a look at the headlines these days.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And they had a band member who refused to fight instead of just singing about it.

the song's about staying home altogether..... It does not talk some talk it can't walk.

and the band member who refused to fight plays some rippin' guitar on the track!

all is good.

[metal flake paint]

Riot...

http://youtu.be/Er3CayqRQpA?t=3m52s

[Mooger Fooger]

Man oh man I love this track and wish the band had explored more hard rock. They certainly could kick ass when required and this song does it for me every time. No way I'd substitute it with anything else.

[bgas]

Riot...

http://youtu.be/Er3CayqRQpA?t=3m52s

Man oh man I love this track and wish the band had explored more hard rock. They certainly could kick ass when required and this song does it for me every time. No way I'd substitute it with anything else.

HEY Thanxx for that!!  It's About Time was Rocking for sure! Thought Riot was just more of a shuffle....

[Theydon Bois]

Some quotes from earlier in the thread (anonymised - this isn't meant to be a riposte to anyone in particular):

I always thought Mike's message was clear, he's condemning the cops that used heavy handed tactics at what was meant to be a peaceful protest.

Sorry but it is absolutely obvious that the song is a criticism of trigger happy guards. Blatantly.

I agree, it's clearly critical of over-reaction of authorities.

Case closed, then?  I don't think it is.  And here are some reasons.

I agree that by proclaiming that "we're all fed up with useless wars and racial strife", Mike puts himself firmly on the side of social progress, and "They said the students scared the Guard though the troops were battle-dressed" is a clear denunciation of the Guards' claims.  So yes, it's definitely critical of the authorities; that's a given.  However, if that was the only message that Mike intended for people to take away from the song, then he failed.  After all, he also included the crass "Bachelor of Bullets" line, hardly the most sympathetic lyric ever written, and then the final line ("But next time there's a riot, well, you best stay out of sight") can clearly be interpreted more than one way.  So while we can agree that he's attacking the police / National Guard, his attitude towards the protesters is rather more ambiguous.

But even if you're inclined to dismiss such concerns, the fact remains that "Student Demonstration Time" isn't a manifesto or a poem, it's a song.  And an analysis of the meaning of a song that doesn't engage with its musical content is not any sort of analysis.

Musically, "Student Demonstration Time" makes use of the work of another artist, and to quote from or borrow another artist's work is an act pregnant with meaning.  (Anyone who finds the musical quotes in parts of Smile evocative will surely agree with that.)  So what is the meaning here?  It's notable that Mike didn't choose to rewrite "Blowin' In The Wind" or "We Shall Overcome" or another anthem of social change for his protest song; instead, he set his lyrics to "Riot In Cell Block #9", a novelty R&B song.  To set political lyrics to the tune of a novelty song is not an apolitical act; furthermore, the manner in which "Student Demonstration Time" is executed hardly shies away from the "novelty" angle, with its wisecracking lyrics and shrieking comedy sirens splattered over the top.  And listen to the way Mike sings it!  It's a great vehicle for his voice, and he arguably delivers one of his best ever rock'n'roll vocals, up there with "All I Want To Do": he tears into lines like "The pen is mightier than the sword, but no match for a gun" not with the finger-pointing earnestness of (to pick a pertinent example) Neil Young on "Ohio" but with almost gleeful R&B relish.  Surely that's no way to sound like someone making a serious point - he's enjoying it too much!  And so the musical setting of "Student Demonstration Time" comprehensively undermines any message the lyrics might have had, and Mike must surely have been conscious of that.

(To dig even deeper: If you believe that "Student Demonstration Time" is unambiguously pro-student, consider that in the song it borrows from / invokes, the rioters are prisoners - armed robbers and the like - and thus de facto bad guys.  While it's admittedly pretty unlikely that Mike intended for listeners to draw inferences from that, I'd argue that if you don't want your audience to make unconscious connections between your song and the contents of "Riot In Cell Block #9", there might be better ways of achieving that than rewriting "Riot In Cell Block #9".)

These are reasons why I think that "Student Demonstration Time" sends out mixed messages and leaves Mike's true opinions somewhat murky.  The fact that a number of contributors to this thread have questioned Mike's intentions regarding this song is entirely understandable; they're not misunderstanding it, they're just responding to different aspects of it to the people who can only hear a criticism of the authorities.

(In case it counts for anything: I actually really enjoy this song, and think it gives the Surf's Up album a nice shot in the arm right in the middle, just like "Macbeth" does on John Cale's Paris 1919.)

[filledeplage]

Some quotes from earlier in the thread (anonymised - this isn't meant to be a riposte to anyone in particular):

I always thought Mike's message was clear, he's condemning the cops that used heavy handed tactics at what was meant to be a peaceful protest.

Sorry but it is absolutely obvious that the song is a criticism of trigger happy guards. Blatantly.

I agree, it's clearly critical of over-reaction of authorities.

Case closed, then?  I don't think it is.  And here are some reasons.

I agree that by proclaiming that "we're all fed up with useless wars and racial strife", Mike puts himself firmly on the side of social progress, and "They said the students scared the Guard though the troops were battle-dressed" is a clear denunciation of the Guards' claims.  So yes, it's definitely critical of the authorities; that's a given.  However, if that was the only message that Mike intended for people to take away from the song, then he failed.  After all, he also included the crass "Bachelor of Bullets" line, hardly the most sympathetic lyric ever written, and then the final line ("But next time there's a riot, well, you best stay out of sight") can clearly be interpreted more than one way.  So while we can agree that he's attacking the police / National Guard, his attitude towards the protesters is rather more ambiguous.

But even if you're inclined to dismiss such concerns, the fact remains that "Student Demonstration Time" isn't a manifesto or a poem, it's a song.  And an analysis of the meaning of a song that doesn't engage with its musical content is not any sort of analysis.

Musically, "Student Demonstration Time" makes use of the work of another artist, and to quote from or borrow another artist's work is an act pregnant with meaning.  (Anyone who finds the musical quotes in parts of Smile evocative will surely agree with that.)  So what is the meaning here?  It's notable that Mike didn't choose to rewrite "Blowin' In The Wind" or "We Shall Overcome" or another anthem of social change for his protest song; instead, he set his lyrics to "Riot In Cell Block #9", a novelty R&B song.  To set political lyrics to the tune of a novelty song is not an apolitical act; furthermore, the manner in which "Student Demonstration Time" is executed hardly shies away from the "novelty" angle, with its wisecracking lyrics and shrieking comedy sirens splattered over the top.  And listen to the way Mike sings it!  It's a great vehicle for his voice, and he arguably delivers one of his best ever rock'n'roll vocals, up there with "All I Want To Do": he tears into lines like "The pen is mightier than the sword, but no match for a gun" not with the finger-pointing earnestness of (to pick a pertinent example) Neil Young on "Ohio" but with almost gleeful R&B relish.  Surely that's no way to sound like someone making a serious point - he's enjoying it too much!  And so the musical setting of "Student Demonstration Time" comprehensively undermines any message the lyrics might have had, and Mike must surely have been conscious of that.

(To dig even deeper: If you believe that "Student Demonstration Time" is unambiguously pro-student, consider that in the song it borrows from / invokes, the rioters are prisoners - armed robbers and the like - and thus de facto bad guys.  While it's admittedly pretty unlikely that Mike intended for listeners to draw inferences from that, I'd argue that if you don't want your audience to make unconscious connections between your song and the contents of "Riot In Cell Block #9", there might be better ways of achieving that than rewriting "Riot In Cell Block #9".)

These are reasons why I think that "Student Demonstration Time" sends out mixed messages and leaves Mike's true opinions somewhat murky.  The fact that a number of contributors to this thread have questioned Mike's intentions regarding this song is entirely understandable; they're not misunderstanding it, they're just responding to different aspects of it to the people who can only hear a criticism of the authorities.

(In case it counts for anything: I actually really enjoy this song, and think it gives the Surf's Up album a nice shot in the arm right in the middle, just like "Macbeth" does on John Cale's Paris 1919.)

Glad you like this song. I do, and always found it to have a powerful message.  I think the concept, which was the then-current issue with the police/National Guard - prior to cell phone video was "police brutality" with full battle regalia, shields, tear gas, as against unarmed students, during peace protests.  The "defense" of the police was that "they said that the students scared the Guard" (absolutely propaganda and utter nonsense.) Mike is giving the law enforcement "party line." It would be rare to have it on tape to lend transparency to the brutality. Once events were captured on film, things started to change.

The protesters are powerless.  It is deadly force against the unarmed students, and intolerance for the Bill of Rights' Freedom of Speech and Assocation.   What the students get as credentials, for their "education" is not a Bachelor of Arts, in a civilized college or university experience, but the hard-knocks, "Bachelor of Bullets," exercising their rights  in a free society.

And it employs the sonority of the megaphone, also used as a tool of intimidation to break up the crowds demonstrating.  I find it an unfunny (is that a word?) song, as it brings to mind, events of my college days, during the Vietnam War.  And, I was and am so proud of this song, that my favorite band, took a stand, and didn't turn a "blind eye" to events that drove the vehicle of change.  

And, I think the melody lends itself very well to these lyric concepts.  It is sort of a jolt in the middle of the album.  I agree.
Few tell the relationship as between music and political and peaceful protest, as well as Graham Nash, formerly of the Hollies, later of CSNY.  CNN has Nash in their program The Sixties, British Invasion.  He was a visionary to move musicians to use music as a tool, to be socially responsible and for youth to empower themselves, for example, with "the vote" which did happen quickly, around 1972, so that those who had to serve in Vietnam could at least have the ability to vote. A harsh song, for a harsh era.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Some quotes from earlier in the thread (anonymised - this isn't meant to be a riposte to anyone in particular):

I always thought Mike's message was clear, he's condemning the cops that used heavy handed tactics at what was meant to be a peaceful protest.

Sorry but it is absolutely obvious that the song is a criticism of trigger happy guards. Blatantly.

I agree, it's clearly critical of over-reaction of authorities.

Case closed, then?  I don't think it is.  And here are some reasons.

I agree that by proclaiming that "we're all fed up with useless wars and racial strife", Mike puts himself firmly on the side of social progress, and "They said the students scared the Guard though the troops were battle-dressed" is a clear denunciation of the Guards' claims.  So yes, it's definitely critical of the authorities; that's a given.  However, if that was the only message that Mike intended for people to take away from the song, then he failed.  After all, he also included the crass "Bachelor of Bullets" line, hardly the most sympathetic lyric ever written, and then the final line ("But next time there's a riot, well, you best stay out of sight") can clearly be interpreted more than one way.  So while we can agree that he's attacking the police / National Guard, his attitude towards the protesters is rather more ambiguous.

But even if you're inclined to dismiss such concerns, the fact remains that "Student Demonstration Time" isn't a manifesto or a poem, it's a song.  And an analysis of the meaning of a song that doesn't engage with its musical content is not any sort of analysis.

Musically, "Student Demonstration Time" makes use of the work of another artist, and to quote from or borrow another artist's work is an act pregnant with meaning.  (Anyone who finds the musical quotes in parts of Smile evocative will surely agree with that.)  So what is the meaning here?  It's notable that Mike didn't choose to rewrite "Blowin' In The Wind" or "We Shall Overcome" or another anthem of social change for his protest song; instead, he set his lyrics to "Riot In Cell Block #9", a novelty R&B song.  To set political lyrics to the tune of a novelty song is not an apolitical act; furthermore, the manner in which "Student Demonstration Time" is executed hardly shies away from the "novelty" angle, with its wisecracking lyrics and shrieking comedy sirens splattered over the top.  And listen to the way Mike sings it!  It's a great vehicle for his voice, and he arguably delivers one of his best ever rock'n'roll vocals, up there with "All I Want To Do": he tears into lines like "The pen is mightier than the sword, but no match for a gun" not with the finger-pointing earnestness of (to pick a pertinent example) Neil Young on "Ohio" but with almost gleeful R&B relish.  Surely that's no way to sound like someone making a serious point - he's enjoying it too much!  And so the musical setting of "Student Demonstration Time" comprehensively undermines any message the lyrics might have had, and Mike must surely have been conscious of that.

(To dig even deeper: If you believe that "Student Demonstration Time" is unambiguously pro-student, consider that in the song it borrows from / invokes, the rioters are prisoners - armed robbers and the like - and thus de facto bad guys.  While it's admittedly pretty unlikely that Mike intended for listeners to draw inferences from that, I'd argue that if you don't want your audience to make unconscious connections between your song and the contents of "Riot In Cell Block #9", there might be better ways of achieving that than rewriting "Riot In Cell Block #9".)

These are reasons why I think that "Student Demonstration Time" sends out mixed messages and leaves Mike's true opinions somewhat murky.  The fact that a number of contributors to this thread have questioned Mike's intentions regarding this song is entirely understandable; they're not misunderstanding it, they're just responding to different aspects of it to the people who can only hear a criticism of the authorities.

(In case it counts for anything: I actually really enjoy this song, and think it gives the Surf's Up album a nice shot in the arm right in the middle, just like "Macbeth" does on John Cale's Paris 1919.)

Or, alternatively, Mike liked and recalled the song from his youth and decided the melody was ideal to set some new lyrics to.

There's such a thing as overthinking (e.g. the lower case i in the Smile artwork, or the "Surfing Saints" from Cheetah): sometimes the obvious answer is the obvious answer.

[Theydon Bois]

Of course there's such a thing as overthinking.  No question about it (though if this site isn't a place where one can safely overthink the Beach Boys, I'd like to know what is).  But there's also such a think as underthinking.  I think that setting lyrics describing events in which real people died to the music of a raucous novelty song and expecting people not to find the end result a bit flippant and unsympathetic might be a good example of underthinking.

But why is it that when Brian incorporates musical allusions into his work (like the quotes from "Gee", "The Old Master Painter" etc in Smile), we credit him with enough musical intelligence to understand that these references will evoke particular feelings and provoke particular responses in an audience (and indeed we might conclude that he consciously chose to embed such allusions into his work for precisely this reason), but when Mike utilises music from another source, we simply shrug and say, "Well, it must just have been a song he liked, probably best not to think too much about it"?  Why don't we hold them to the same standards of artistry?

Respectfully submitted.

[filledeplage]

Of course there's such a thing as overthinking.  No question about it (though if this site isn't a place where one can safely overthink the Beach Boys, I'd like to know what is).  But there's also such a think as underthinking.  I think that setting lyrics describing events in which real people died to the music of a raucous novelty song and expecting people not to find the end result a bit flippant and unsympathetic might be a good example of underthinking.

But why is it that when Brian incorporates musical allusions into his work (like the quotes from "Gee", "The Old Master Painter" etc in Smile), we credit him with enough musical intelligence to understand that these references will evoke particular feelings and provoke particular responses in an audience (and indeed we might conclude that he consciously chose to embed such allusions into his work for precisely this reason), but when Mike utilises music from another source, we simply shrug and say, "Well, it must just have been a song he liked, probably best not to think too much about it"?  Why don't we hold them to the same standards of artistry?

Respectfully submitted.

My sense is that the very concrete lyrics are through the lens of a bystander.  It isn't flippant in my view, as much as caustic and harsh. They paint a picture rather than invite you to find an interpretation. Artistry is not one-size-fits-all.

It retells a catalogue of past events, while the riots/demonstrations are still ongoing and menacing, with the final caution to "stay out of sight."

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian also incorporated "Get A Job" into "Night Blooming Jasmine", and also the "Shortenin' Bread" riff into any number of tracks. I kinda doubt there was any deep thought involved there.