at what point did Brian start to seem "off"?

[dwtherealbb]

I mean none of us know first hand since we were never there with them in person, but has anyone read in books or what not when Brian started to seem sort of off his rocker? At the latest I would say it was during the smile sessions but I've heard others say he was exhibiting behavior like that even before the beach boys existed.

[Gertie J.]

blame it on murry.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

What I get from all the bios is this. He always was a bit eccentric. I also think he has to this day a rather strange sense of humour. I think over the years he has perfected ways of a: controlling people and b: making people go away. I don't think he's ever been "off his rocker". If he was, it was during the later Landy years.
He is certainly a one-off.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Is it possible that Brian had/has some sort of undiagnosed autism or aspergers?  Having known and worked with people who live with those conditions, I have wondered if Brian has a mild personality disorder but as it wasn't common in the 60s, it went unnoticed.  I mean I'm sure all the abuse and drugs did some damage but I wouldn't be surprised if there was something Brian was born with that they never really noticed or cared to check out.

[hypehat]

He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

People with a type of depression will sometimes see a major episode and a kind of  behavioural turn in their early 20s.  I think that the incident on board the plane when Brian was 22 was a significant early example of his disorder and since it was left untreated, the illness got worse and worse and the very stressful nature of the work Brian was doing only exacerbated matters.

[AndrewHickey]

He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.

No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I don't know too much about Asperger syndrome. Do the people who have it have difficulties in particular situations or can they be entirely socially capable in some situations but not in others?

[myonlysunshine]

I am an individual with Asperger's Syndrome. I also work in higher education disability services. I currently coordinate a peer mentoring program for individuals on the autism spectrum at a local university near me and am in the process of designing a career development program for students with Asperger's and autism. Having Asperger's Syndrome myself gives me a unique perspective on how to work with this population.

Brian Wilson in no way resembles someone who has Asperger's Syndrome. He's eccentric yes, but otherwise shows no difficulties with social isolation. Being a little eccentric or a little awkward does not make someone have Asperger's Syndrome. It's a lot more complex than that. The recent DSM changes do not change a lot of what Asperger's Syndrome is or it's features, but rather terminology (as being part of the large autism spectrum, not whether the disorder exists or not, as some has said in the past).

I don't know too much about Asperger syndrome. Do the people who have it have difficulties in particular situations or can they be entirely socially capable in some situations but not in others?

Depends on the person. Some Aspies are forward and social, some aren't. I fall into the former category, but personally it took me many years before I overcame the vast amount of social difficulties I experienced as a kid. I now work in a socially demanding job where very few people who I work with even realize I have Asperger's Syndrome. The students who I work with sometimes can be pretty talkative and social, sometimes not. Sometimes they are socially competent to an extent, sometimes not. But I just don't think Brian even remotely fits the description of Asperger's Syndrome and autism. What he's actually diagnosed with fits a lot better.

[myonlysunshine]

He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.

No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.

In what way? I simply don't see it. The new DSM isn't coming out until May of this year. So the current definition of Asperger's is the following:

(I) “Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction (I don't see this at all with Brian, but I do when working with students with Asperger's at the universities I work at)
(B) Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (for the most part, not true with Brian. If this is the case with him, it's probably a result of abuse or depression he's been through)
(C) A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) (Brian doesn't do this)
(D) Lack of social or emotional reciprocity (not true with Brian either)

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (this is true with Brian's love of music, but it's true of a lot of musicians and doesn't have to be Asperger's or autism)
(B) Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (here's a big difference. I have never seen or read Brian doing anything like this. He's never been shown to have the need to preform rituals or routines over the course of his whole life)
(C) Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting,or complex whole-body movements) (not really true in Brian's case)
(D) Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (definitely not true in Brian's case)

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, orother important areas of functioning. (Possibly, but could be the result of other things like depression or abuse)
(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years) (True, but true of most people)
(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood. (True, but is true of most people)
(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia” (APA, 2000).

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Thanks, very interesting stuff.

The only thing I've ever seen in relation to Brian which makes sense medically is the tardive dyskinesia thing, which was a result of Landy's mis-prescription. Before this, even at his lowest points he could still be witty and charismatic.

This seems to be one of those threads keeps being rehashed

[myonlysunshine]

Maybe I should actually answer the question the thread poster is asking. I was reading Catch a Wave earlier this winter, and it definitely seemed like by the time Brian was in high school, he was already displaying eccentric or odd behavior, maybe even before that. His high school friends are quoted in the book as saying Brian seemed like a sensitive guy, someone people wanted to protect, but that he definitely displayed some behavior and warning signs that maybe all wasn't well psychologically. It may even go back even further than high school.

[AndrewHickey]

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.

It's nothing I can put my finger on, exactly. But I have Asperger's myself, too, and used to work in mental health and learning disabilities. I would definitely not want to say that he *does* have Asperger's -- even were I qualified to diagnose someone, and even if I'd spent more than a tiny amount of time talking to him, it's *really* nobody's business -- and I would put the probability as fairly low myself. But there are certain facial expressions, quirks of body language and so on, that I've otherwise only seen in people on the spectrum, which mean that I wouldn't be utterly shocked if he did. But that's all I meant, though -- I don't actually believe he does, and mostly only chipped in because of the suggestion that if he has schizoaffective disorder he couldn't also be on the autistic spectrum.

[myonlysunshine]

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.

It's nothing I can put my finger on, exactly. But I have Asperger's myself, too, and used to work in mental health and learning disabilities. I would definitely not want to say that he *does* have Asperger's -- even were I qualified to diagnose someone, and even if I'd spent more than a tiny amount of time talking to him, it's *really* nobody's business -- and I would put the probability as fairly low myself. But there are certain facial expressions, quirks of body language and so on, that I've otherwise only seen in people on the spectrum, which mean that I wouldn't be utterly shocked if he did. But that's all I meant, though -- I don't actually believe he does, and mostly only chipped in because of the suggestion that if he has schizoaffective disorder he couldn't also be on the autistic spectrum.

Fair enough. Overall I don't think Brian has the disorder either, but I get how some of his gestures, body language and so on could resemble those of Aspies.

By the way, my screen name, in addition to being the name of a Dennis Wilson song, is also a tongue and cheek reference to Asperger's Syndrome. Since the disorder is typically marked by a lack of social recprocity, I thought "All Alone" would be an amusing screen name for a person with Asperger's Syndrome for obvious reasons.

[Amy B.]

This "Does Brian have Aspberger's" thing has come up several times, and each time, someone dispute it and lays it to rest...until the next time. Brian has been evaluated by professionals so extensively that I'm sure someone would have picked up on it if it was there.

As was said, he has always been eccentric, and his tendency to "put on" some behavior makes it hard to discern what's real and what he's doing for humor/attention/as a defense mechanism. So it's hard to really pinpoint when some of the "eccentric behavior" started to be a result of hearing voices in his head or being paranoid or the other symptoms of his illness. Even the panic attack on the plane in 1964 could have been the result of extreme stress and separate from his later diagnosis.

Seems like when he started staying in bed for longer than normal/not showering was maybe the start of not being able to control his depression. When was that-- early 70s? Although he probably had bouts of it before then and was in a gradual decline.

[filledeplage]

He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.

No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.

In what way? I simply don't see it. The new DSM isn't coming out until May of this year. So the current definition of Asperger's is the following:

(I) “Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction (I don't see this at all with Brian, but I do when working with students with Asperger's at the universities I work at)
(B) Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (for the most part, not true with Brian. If this is the case with him, it's probably a result of abuse or depression he's been through)
(C) A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) (Brian doesn't do this)
(D) Lack of social or emotional reciprocity (not true with Brian either)

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (this is true with Brian's love of music, but it's true of a lot of musicians and doesn't have to be Asperger's or autism)
(B) Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (here's a big difference. I have never seen or read Brian doing anything like this. He's never been shown to have the need to preform rituals or routines over the course of his whole life)
(C) Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting,or complex whole-body movements) (not really true in Brian's case)
(D) Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (definitely not true in Brian's case)

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, orother important areas of functioning. (Possibly, but could be the result of other things like depression or abuse)
(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years) (True, but true of most people)
(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood. (True, but is true of most people)
(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia” (APA, 2000).

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.

Thank you so much for doing the homework on the DSM classification.  It is so helpful, because first it shows what the existing criteria are.  And, now the classification is being wiped out, and I am suspicious that it may be Big Pharma intervention as a result of the charges that many children are being over vaccinated with mercury preservatives, and the diagnosis numbers have gone up exponentially since this aggressive vaccination schedule changed post-1980's.  It may make it hard for teachers in early education to help children get intervention and support, which is critical.  The earlier, the better.  Big Pharma really wants the finger pointed elsewhere with the autism spectrum disorder epidemic being correlated to an over-aggressive vaccination schedule and mercury in their products.

It is good to see people from refraining to do arm-chair diagnoses on a message board because they lack the credentials.  But it is an outrage that the class is being removed because, I think, this will remove one tool in the education toolbox and make the disorder vague, and perhaps relegated to "behaving badly" in the value judgment context.  I worry for those kids who struggle in classes, being misunderstood, and perhaps bullied, when so much progress has been made with recognition of what people with what we still can call Aspergers can achieve.  And inclusion of their contributions overall.  

Medicine should be driven by science and not influenced by the checkbooks of Big Pharma.  JMHO

Again, bravo for listing the long catalog of classification and sharing your knowledge.    Thank you very much!

[myonlysunshine]

He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.

No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.

In what way? I simply don't see it. The new DSM isn't coming out until May of this year. So the current definition of Asperger's is the following:

(I) “Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction (I don't see this at all with Brian, but I do when working with students with Asperger's at the universities I work at)
(B) Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (for the most part, not true with Brian. If this is the case with him, it's probably a result of abuse or depression he's been through)
(C) A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) (Brian doesn't do this)
(D) Lack of social or emotional reciprocity (not true with Brian either)

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (this is true with Brian's love of music, but it's true of a lot of musicians and doesn't have to be Asperger's or autism)
(B) Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (here's a big difference. I have never seen or read Brian doing anything like this. He's never been shown to have the need to preform rituals or routines over the course of his whole life)
(C) Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting,or complex whole-body movements) (not really true in Brian's case)
(D) Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (definitely not true in Brian's case)

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, orother important areas of functioning. (Possibly, but could be the result of other things like depression or abuse)
(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years) (True, but true of most people)
(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood. (True, but is true of most people)
(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia” (APA, 2000).

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.

Thank you so much for doing the homework on the DSM classification.  It is so helpful, because first it shows what the existing criteria are.  And, now the classification is being wiped out, and I am suspicious that it may be Big Pharma intervention as a result of the charges that many children are being over vaccinated with mercury preservatives, and the diagnosis numbers have gone up exponentially since this aggressive vaccination schedule changed post-1980's.  It may make it hard for teachers in early education to help children get intervention and support, which is critical.  The earlier, the better.  Big Pharma really wants the finger pointed elsewhere with the autism spectrum disorder epidemic being correlated to an over-aggressive vaccination schedule and mercury in their products.

It is good to see people from refraining to do air-chair diagnoses on a message board because they lack the credentials.  But it is an outrage that the class is being removed because, I think, this will remove one tool in the education toolbox and make the disorder vague, and perhaps relegated to "behaving badly" in the value judgment context.  I worry for those kids who struggle in classes, being misunderstood, and perhaps bullied, when so much progress has been made with recognition of what people with what we still can call Aspergers can achieve.  And inclusion of their contributions overall.  

Medicine should be driven by science and not influenced by the checkbooks of Big Pharma.  JMHO

Again, bravo for listing the long catalog of classification and sharing your knowledge.    Thank you very much!

Thank you filledeplage. I agree that the classification of Asperger's ultimately should not be removed. However, I do caution you not to attribute Asperger's and autism to vaccinations and pharmacy companies. I know what you're referring to with this. There is a thought that autism is caused by early vaccinations, and that it is simply a case of mercury poisoning. I have seen matrix charts that point out the similarities between the symptoms of autism and the symptoms of mercury poisoning. The reality is that research points to autism and Asperger's being partly genetic and partly set off by something in the environment, usually at a young age.

People with autism spectrum disorders have been shown to possess more genetic material in certain places of their DNA than neuro-typicals. These genes are triggered when something in the environment sets them off. Vaccines have been commonly thought to possibly be this trigger, however, recent research at one of the schools I work at suggests that this might not be the case. There was a recent study done where identical twins were born, and one was discovered to have Asperger's Syndrome and one wasn't. They were both given the exact same vaccines, yet only one of them developed an autism spectrum disorder despite having the exact same genetic material. This suggests that either there is another factor at play other than the vaccines, or it isn't the vaccines that are triggering autism at all. Most scientists (and myself) are inclined to go with the latter probability.

There are also noticeable changes in brain makeup for people with autism that can be detected even before they are born or given any vaccines. It's important not to jump the gun and blame autism on any one factor. The reality is that the scientific community doesn't know what causes autism, and that the most we can say is it is part genetic, part environmental, and that whatever the environmental trigger is, is not known for sure at this time.

[myonlysunshine]

Here's an interesting article about genes and autism: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/autism-and-genetics-a-breakthrough-that-sheds-light-on-a-medical-mystery-1996221.html

But I think we should get back on topic.

[filledeplage]

All Alone - thanks for the reply.  That "indentical twins" thing you mentioned is very interesting.  But, lately, I've seen studies and news reports linking (blaming) advanced paternal age and other reasons for the Autism/Aspergers spike.  What I did read is that some time ago, when Japan saw a spike in cases, and the vaccines were US produced, they insisted that mercury be removed or they would take "their business elsewhere."  

I always want to know "Who paid for the study?" and then, look through that lens.  If a Big Pharma company or a university funded by them set forth a  study, I would be critical reading it.  There have been too many researchers who have been paid to skew results to favor a client or special interest.  Recently some Harvard tied researchers have been nailed for exactly this.  And doctors rewarded for prescribing psychiatric meds which have proven harmful to their patients to advance the bottom line for Big Pharma.

And, while other suspicious factors are cropping up, and genes are thrown into the mix, I like to think of Big Pharma as a "suspect" and tell them, "don't leave the jurisdiction," while another/other theories are put forth.  I ask myself "Who has the most to gain by eliminating them, and it has to be them, with the cases of parents reporting their kids were AOK until he/she got a particular vaccine?" And the whole family is there and friends, etc., to support a causal inference, or at least a link, to vaccines.  And the "temporal relationship" ( a legal term of art) as between the vaccine administration and the symptoms.

There are now, I'm told ways of requesting vaccines prepared without mercury.  I would imagine you'd have to be an aggressive parent.  They are in the best position to advocate for their kids.  
 
But you do bring a lot of expertise to the table working with these kids, while the discussion rages, and can perhaps provide insight into.  They are indeed lucky to have you.  

And we are wandering off the music track...

[Mikie]

Pick one:

1. Schizoaffective disorder
2. Manic-depressive
3. Tardive dyskinesia

[Aegir]

4. drugs

[myonlysunshine]

There are now, I'm told ways of requesting vaccines prepared without mercury.  I would imagine you'd have to be an aggressive parent.  They are in the best position to advocate for their kids.  
 
But you do bring a lot of expertise to the table working with these kids, while the discussion rages, and can perhaps provide insight into.  They are indeed lucky to have you.  

And we are wandering off the music track...

That's the thing though. Pharmacy companies can now prepare vaccinations without mercury. At this point they don't stand to lose anything if they remove mercury from their vaccines.

They could discover that autism is mercury poisoning, remove all mercury from their vaccines, and not miss a beat or be harmed in the least bit. Were this 20 years ago, this may not be the case, but it's a small part of the reason I don't find the big pharmacy companies running things to be a great argument.

The Center for Disease Control did a big study into this. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html. Their findings are similar to a lot of other studies deemed credible by the scientific community. You can argue that maybe big pharmacy companies are involved and have an agenda to push, but I personally don't buy it.

But yes, lets get back on topic.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The anti-vaccination crowd seems far more anti-science than pro-science and is far more in line with the movement that pushes for creationism, intelligent design and believes 9/11 was an inside job. It's couched in what might otherwise be an admirable opposition to corporate power, but in reality, it merely reinforces another insiduous threat to rational thinking.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

4. drugs

The drugs I think are more of a symptom than a cause. There have been people who have rivaled Brian in drug consumption that are seemingly more 'normal' than Brian is. I use that term extremely loosely. I think a good  part of Brian's issues today are because of Landy, although I wonder why there was such a change from 1995 to 1998 aside from the obvious.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

4. drugs

The drugs I think are more of a symptom than a cause. There have been people who have rivaled Brian in drug consumption that are seemingly more 'normal' than Brian is. I use that term extremely loosely. I think a good  part of Brian's issues today are because of Landy, although I wonder why there was such a change from 1995 to 1998 aside from the obvious.

Agreed about all of that - I have the same questions too about the change.