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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: dwtherealbb on February 16, 2013, 10:11:37 PM



Title: at what point did Brian start to seem "off"?
Post by: dwtherealbb on February 16, 2013, 10:11:37 PM
I mean none of us know first hand since we were never there with them in person, but has anyone read in books or what not when Brian started to seem sort of off his rocker? At the latest I would say it was during the smile sessions but I've heard others say he was exhibiting behavior like that even before the beach boys existed.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Gertie J. on February 16, 2013, 10:22:56 PM
blame it on murry.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on February 16, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
What I get from all the bios is this. He always was a bit eccentric. I also think he has to this day a rather strange sense of humour. I think over the years he has perfected ways of a: controlling people and b: making people go away. I don't think he's ever been "off his rocker". If he was, it was during the later Landy years.
He is certainly a one-off.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on February 17, 2013, 12:17:44 AM
Is it possible that Brian had/has some sort of undiagnosed autism or aspergers?  Having known and worked with people who live with those conditions, I have wondered if Brian has a mild personality disorder but as it wasn't common in the 60s, it went unnoticed.  I mean I'm sure all the abuse and drugs did some damage but I wouldn't be surprised if there was something Brian was born with that they never really noticed or cared to check out.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: hypehat on February 17, 2013, 05:42:45 AM
He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 17, 2013, 06:10:20 AM
People with a type of depression will sometimes see a major episode and a kind of  behavioural turn in their early 20s.  I think that the incident on board the plane when Brian was 22 was a significant early example of his disorder and since it was left untreated, the illness got worse and worse and the very stressful nature of the work Brian was doing only exacerbated matters.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: AndrewHickey on February 17, 2013, 06:17:49 AM
He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.


No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 17, 2013, 06:24:07 AM
I don't know too much about Asperger syndrome. Do the people who have it have difficulties in particular situations or can they be entirely socially capable in some situations but not in others?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 06:44:04 AM
I am an individual with Asperger's Syndrome. I also work in higher education disability services. I currently coordinate a peer mentoring program for individuals on the autism spectrum at a local university near me and am in the process of designing a career development program for students with Asperger's and autism. Having Asperger's Syndrome myself gives me a unique perspective on how to work with this population.

Brian Wilson in no way resembles someone who has Asperger's Syndrome. He's eccentric yes, but otherwise shows no difficulties with social isolation. Being a little eccentric or a little awkward does not make someone have Asperger's Syndrome. It's a lot more complex than that. The recent DSM changes do not change a lot of what Asperger's Syndrome is or it's features, but rather terminology (as being part of the large autism spectrum, not whether the disorder exists or not, as some has said in the past).

I don't know too much about Asperger syndrome. Do the people who have it have difficulties in particular situations or can they be entirely socially capable in some situations but not in others?

Depends on the person. Some Aspies are forward and social, some aren't. I fall into the former category, but personally it took me many years before I overcame the vast amount of social difficulties I experienced as a kid. I now work in a socially demanding job where very few people who I work with even realize I have Asperger's Syndrome. The students who I work with sometimes can be pretty talkative and social, sometimes not. Sometimes they are socially competent to an extent, sometimes not. But I just don't think Brian even remotely fits the description of Asperger's Syndrome and autism. What he's actually diagnosed with fits a lot better.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 07:17:49 AM
He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.


No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.

In what way? I simply don't see it. The new DSM isn't coming out until May of this year. So the current definition of Asperger's is the following:

(I) “Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction (I don't see this at all with Brian, but I do when working with students with Asperger's at the universities I work at)
(B) Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (for the most part, not true with Brian. If this is the case with him, it's probably a result of abuse or depression he's been through)
(C) A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) (Brian doesn't do this)
(D) Lack of social or emotional reciprocity (not true with Brian either)

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (this is true with Brian's love of music, but it's true of a lot of musicians and doesn't have to be Asperger's or autism)
(B) Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (here's a big difference. I have never seen or read Brian doing anything like this. He's never been shown to have the need to preform rituals or routines over the course of his whole life)
(C) Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting,or complex whole-body movements) (not really true in Brian's case)
(D) Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (definitely not true in Brian's case)

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, orother important areas of functioning. (Possibly, but could be the result of other things like depression or abuse)
(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years) (True, but true of most people)
(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood. (True, but is true of most people)
(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia” (APA, 2000).

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on February 17, 2013, 07:51:37 AM
Thanks, very interesting stuff.

The only thing I've ever seen in relation to Brian which makes sense medically is the tardive dyskinesia thing, which was a result of Landy's mis-prescription. Before this, even at his lowest points he could still be witty and charismatic.

This seems to be one of those threads keeps being rehashed


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 08:03:10 AM
Maybe I should actually answer the question the thread poster is asking. I was reading Catch a Wave earlier this winter, and it definitely seemed like by the time Brian was in high school, he was already displaying eccentric or odd behavior, maybe even before that. His high school friends are quoted in the book as saying Brian seemed like a sensitive guy, someone people wanted to protect, but that he definitely displayed some behavior and warning signs that maybe all wasn't well psychologically. It may even go back even further than high school.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: AndrewHickey on February 17, 2013, 08:11:51 AM
But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.

It's nothing I can put my finger on, exactly. But I have Asperger's myself, too, and used to work in mental health and learning disabilities. I would definitely not want to say that he *does* have Asperger's -- even were I qualified to diagnose someone, and even if I'd spent more than a tiny amount of time talking to him, it's *really* nobody's business -- and I would put the probability as fairly low myself. But there are certain facial expressions, quirks of body language and so on, that I've otherwise only seen in people on the spectrum, which mean that I wouldn't be utterly shocked if he did. But that's all I meant, though -- I don't actually believe he does, and mostly only chipped in because of the suggestion that if he has schizoaffective disorder he couldn't also be on the autistic spectrum.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 08:24:01 AM
But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.

It's nothing I can put my finger on, exactly. But I have Asperger's myself, too, and used to work in mental health and learning disabilities. I would definitely not want to say that he *does* have Asperger's -- even were I qualified to diagnose someone, and even if I'd spent more than a tiny amount of time talking to him, it's *really* nobody's business -- and I would put the probability as fairly low myself. But there are certain facial expressions, quirks of body language and so on, that I've otherwise only seen in people on the spectrum, which mean that I wouldn't be utterly shocked if he did. But that's all I meant, though -- I don't actually believe he does, and mostly only chipped in because of the suggestion that if he has schizoaffective disorder he couldn't also be on the autistic spectrum.

Fair enough. Overall I don't think Brian has the disorder either, but I get how some of his gestures, body language and so on could resemble those of Aspies.

By the way, my screen name, in addition to being the name of a Dennis Wilson song, is also a tongue and cheek reference to Asperger's Syndrome. Since the disorder is typically marked by a lack of social recprocity, I thought "All Alone" would be an amusing screen name for a person with Asperger's Syndrome for obvious reasons.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Amy B. on February 17, 2013, 08:29:51 AM
This "Does Brian have Aspberger's" thing has come up several times, and each time, someone dispute it and lays it to rest...until the next time. Brian has been evaluated by professionals so extensively that I'm sure someone would have picked up on it if it was there.

As was said, he has always been eccentric, and his tendency to "put on" some behavior makes it hard to discern what's real and what he's doing for humor/attention/as a defense mechanism. So it's hard to really pinpoint when some of the "eccentric behavior" started to be a result of hearing voices in his head or being paranoid or the other symptoms of his illness. Even the panic attack on the plane in 1964 could have been the result of extreme stress and separate from his later diagnosis.

Seems like when he started staying in bed for longer than normal/not showering was maybe the start of not being able to control his depression. When was that-- early 70s? Although he probably had bouts of it before then and was in a gradual decline.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 17, 2013, 08:41:34 AM
He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.
No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.

In what way? I simply don't see it. The new DSM isn't coming out until May of this year. So the current definition of Asperger's is the following:

(I) “Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction (I don't see this at all with Brian, but I do when working with students with Asperger's at the universities I work at)
(B) Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (for the most part, not true with Brian. If this is the case with him, it's probably a result of abuse or depression he's been through)
(C) A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) (Brian doesn't do this)
(D) Lack of social or emotional reciprocity (not true with Brian either)

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (this is true with Brian's love of music, but it's true of a lot of musicians and doesn't have to be Asperger's or autism)
(B) Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (here's a big difference. I have never seen or read Brian doing anything like this. He's never been shown to have the need to preform rituals or routines over the course of his whole life)
(C) Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting,or complex whole-body movements) (not really true in Brian's case)
(D) Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (definitely not true in Brian's case)

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, orother important areas of functioning. (Possibly, but could be the result of other things like depression or abuse)
(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years) (True, but true of most people)
(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood. (True, but is true of most people)
(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia” (APA, 2000).

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.
Thank you so much for doing the homework on the DSM classification.  It is so helpful, because first it shows what the existing criteria are.  And, now the classification is being wiped out, and I am suspicious that it may be Big Pharma intervention as a result of the charges that many children are being over vaccinated with mercury preservatives, and the diagnosis numbers have gone up exponentially since this aggressive vaccination schedule changed post-1980's.  It may make it hard for teachers in early education to help children get intervention and support, which is critical.  The earlier, the better.  Big Pharma really wants the finger pointed elsewhere with the autism spectrum disorder epidemic being correlated to an over-aggressive vaccination schedule and mercury in their products.

It is good to see people from refraining to do arm-chair diagnoses on a message board because they lack the credentials.  But it is an outrage that the class is being removed because, I think, this will remove one tool in the education toolbox and make the disorder vague, and perhaps relegated to "behaving badly" in the value judgment context.  I worry for those kids who struggle in classes, being misunderstood, and perhaps bullied, when so much progress has been made with recognition of what people with what we still can call Aspergers can achieve.  And inclusion of their contributions overall.  

Medicine should be driven by science and not influenced by the checkbooks of Big Pharma.  JMHO

Again, bravo for listing the long catalog of classification and sharing your knowledge.   ;)  Thank you very much!


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 09:11:51 AM
He has schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type (cheers, Wiki). Not autism.
No reason he couldn't have both -- in fact the two are often comorbid and have a lot of overlapping symptoms, though the two are not usually *diagnosed* together, because one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for Asperger's is, essentially, "doesn't have anything else". A lot of the time people have symptoms of multiple mental illnesses and disorders, because the same physical problem can manifest in different symptoms, or interact with environmental stuff to produce very different outcomes. Certainly, some of Brian's behaviours are similar to some of the behaviours of some people who have what people call "high-functioning" autistic spectrum disorders.

All that said, really, it's none of our business. Brian's mental health is a private matter.

In what way? I simply don't see it. The new DSM isn't coming out until May of this year. So the current definition of Asperger's is the following:

(I) “Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction (I don't see this at all with Brian, but I do when working with students with Asperger's at the universities I work at)
(B) Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level (for the most part, not true with Brian. If this is the case with him, it's probably a result of abuse or depression he's been through)
(C) A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) (Brian doesn't do this)
(D) Lack of social or emotional reciprocity (not true with Brian either)

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus (this is true with Brian's love of music, but it's true of a lot of musicians and doesn't have to be Asperger's or autism)
(B) Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (here's a big difference. I have never seen or read Brian doing anything like this. He's never been shown to have the need to preform rituals or routines over the course of his whole life)
(C) Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting,or complex whole-body movements) (not really true in Brian's case)
(D) Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (definitely not true in Brian's case)

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, orother important areas of functioning. (Possibly, but could be the result of other things like depression or abuse)
(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years) (True, but true of most people)
(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood. (True, but is true of most people)
(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia” (APA, 2000).

But I agree with you on your last point. This is truly none of our business. I'm just commenting because this is now the second time somebody on this board has suggested Brian has Asperger's, and as someone with the disorder himself and who works with this population for a living, I don't see it. The claim is somewhat baffling to me.
Thank you so much for doing the homework on the DSM classification.  It is so helpful, because first it shows what the existing criteria are.  And, now the classification is being wiped out, and I am suspicious that it may be Big Pharma intervention as a result of the charges that many children are being over vaccinated with mercury preservatives, and the diagnosis numbers have gone up exponentially since this aggressive vaccination schedule changed post-1980's.  It may make it hard for teachers in early education to help children get intervention and support, which is critical.  The earlier, the better.  Big Pharma really wants the finger pointed elsewhere with the autism spectrum disorder epidemic being correlated to an over-aggressive vaccination schedule and mercury in their products.

It is good to see people from refraining to do air-chair diagnoses on a message board because they lack the credentials.  But it is an outrage that the class is being removed because, I think, this will remove one tool in the education toolbox and make the disorder vague, and perhaps relegated to "behaving badly" in the value judgment context.  I worry for those kids who struggle in classes, being misunderstood, and perhaps bullied, when so much progress has been made with recognition of what people with what we still can call Aspergers can achieve.  And inclusion of their contributions overall.  

Medicine should be driven by science and not influenced by the checkbooks of Big Pharma.  JMHO

Again, bravo for listing the long catalog of classification and sharing your knowledge.   ;)  Thank you very much!

Thank you filledeplage. I agree that the classification of Asperger's ultimately should not be removed. However, I do caution you not to attribute Asperger's and autism to vaccinations and pharmacy companies. I know what you're referring to with this. There is a thought that autism is caused by early vaccinations, and that it is simply a case of mercury poisoning. I have seen matrix charts that point out the similarities between the symptoms of autism and the symptoms of mercury poisoning. The reality is that research points to autism and Asperger's being partly genetic and partly set off by something in the environment, usually at a young age.

People with autism spectrum disorders have been shown to possess more genetic material in certain places of their DNA than neuro-typicals. These genes are triggered when something in the environment sets them off. Vaccines have been commonly thought to possibly be this trigger, however, recent research at one of the schools I work at suggests that this might not be the case. There was a recent study done where identical twins were born, and one was discovered to have Asperger's Syndrome and one wasn't. They were both given the exact same vaccines, yet only one of them developed an autism spectrum disorder despite having the exact same genetic material. This suggests that either there is another factor at play other than the vaccines, or it isn't the vaccines that are triggering autism at all. Most scientists (and myself) are inclined to go with the latter probability.

There are also noticeable changes in brain makeup for people with autism that can be detected even before they are born or given any vaccines. It's important not to jump the gun and blame autism on any one factor. The reality is that the scientific community doesn't know what causes autism, and that the most we can say is it is part genetic, part environmental, and that whatever the environmental trigger is, is not known for sure at this time.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 09:35:23 AM
Here's an interesting article about genes and autism: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/autism-and-genetics-a-breakthrough-that-sheds-light-on-a-medical-mystery-1996221.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/autism-and-genetics-a-breakthrough-that-sheds-light-on-a-medical-mystery-1996221.html)

But I think we should get back on topic.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 17, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
All Alone - thanks for the reply.  That "indentical twins" thing you mentioned is very interesting.  But, lately, I've seen studies and news reports linking (blaming) advanced paternal age and other reasons for the Autism/Aspergers spike.  What I did read is that some time ago, when Japan saw a spike in cases, and the vaccines were US produced, they insisted that mercury be removed or they would take "their business elsewhere."  

I always want to know "Who paid for the study?" and then, look through that lens.  If a Big Pharma company or a university funded by them set forth a  study, I would be critical reading it.  There have been too many researchers who have been paid to skew results to favor a client or special interest.  Recently some Harvard tied researchers have been nailed for exactly this.  And doctors rewarded for prescribing psychiatric meds which have proven harmful to their patients to advance the bottom line for Big Pharma.

And, while other suspicious factors are cropping up, and genes are thrown into the mix, I like to think of Big Pharma as a "suspect" and tell them, "don't leave the jurisdiction," while another/other theories are put forth.  I ask myself "Who has the most to gain by eliminating them, and it has to be them, with the cases of parents reporting their kids were AOK until he/she got a particular vaccine?" And the whole family is there and friends, etc., to support a causal inference, or at least a link, to vaccines.  And the "temporal relationship" ( a legal term of art) as between the vaccine administration and the symptoms.

There are now, I'm told ways of requesting vaccines prepared without mercury.  I would imagine you'd have to be an aggressive parent.  They are in the best position to advocate for their kids.  
 
But you do bring a lot of expertise to the table working with these kids, while the discussion rages, and can perhaps provide insight into.  They are indeed lucky to have you.  

And we are wandering off the music track...


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Mikie on February 17, 2013, 09:41:59 AM
Pick one:

1. Schizoaffective disorder
2. Manic-depressive
3. Tardive dyskinesia


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Aegir on February 17, 2013, 09:48:58 AM
4. drugs


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 09:56:11 AM
There are now, I'm told ways of requesting vaccines prepared without mercury.  I would imagine you'd have to be an aggressive parent.  They are in the best position to advocate for their kids.  
 
But you do bring a lot of expertise to the table working with these kids, while the discussion rages, and can perhaps provide insight into.  They are indeed lucky to have you.  

And we are wandering off the music track...

That's the thing though. Pharmacy companies can now prepare vaccinations without mercury. At this point they don't stand to lose anything if they remove mercury from their vaccines.

They could discover that autism is mercury poisoning, remove all mercury from their vaccines, and not miss a beat or be harmed in the least bit. Were this 20 years ago, this may not be the case, but it's a small part of the reason I don't find the big pharmacy companies running things to be a great argument.

The Center for Disease Control did a big study into this. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html). Their findings are similar to a lot of other studies deemed credible by the scientific community. You can argue that maybe big pharmacy companies are involved and have an agenda to push, but I personally don't buy it.

But yes, lets get back on topic. :)


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 17, 2013, 09:58:27 AM
The anti-vaccination crowd seems far more anti-science than pro-science and is far more in line with the movement that pushes for creationism, intelligent design and believes 9/11 was an inside job. It's couched in what might otherwise be an admirable opposition to corporate power, but in reality, it merely reinforces another insiduous threat to rational thinking.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 17, 2013, 10:44:41 AM
4. drugs

The drugs I think are more of a symptom than a cause. There have been people who have rivaled Brian in drug consumption that are seemingly more 'normal' than Brian is. I use that term extremely loosely. I think a good  part of Brian's issues today are because of Landy, although I wonder why there was such a change from 1995 to 1998 aside from the obvious.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 17, 2013, 10:56:35 AM
4. drugs

The drugs I think are more of a symptom than a cause. There have been people who have rivaled Brian in drug consumption that are seemingly more 'normal' than Brian is. I use that term extremely loosely. I think a good  part of Brian's issues today are because of Landy, although I wonder why there was such a change from 1995 to 1998 aside from the obvious.

Agreed about all of that - I have the same questions too about the change.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 17, 2013, 11:00:50 AM
There are now, I'm told ways of requesting vaccines prepared without mercury.  I would imagine you'd have to be an knowledgeable and aggressive parent.  They are in the best position to advocate for their kids.  
But you do bring a lot of expertise to the table working with these kids, while the discussion rages, and can perhaps provide insight into.  They are indeed lucky to have you.  
And we are wandering off the music track...
That's the thing though. Pharmacy companies can now prepare vaccinations without mercury. At this point they don't stand to lose anything if they remove mercury from their vaccines.
(quote)
Then, why don't they, if what we know about mercury poison, and we do an environmental cleanup when there is a mercury spill in a high school laboratory.  

They could discover that autism is mercury poisoning, remove all mercury from their vaccines, and not miss a beat or be harmed in the least bit. Were this 20 years ago, this may not be the case, but it's a small part of the reason I don't find the big pharmacy companies running things to be a great argument.
(quote)  
There could be a gene responsible for this, and the vaccine "triggers the event." The Pharma companies are settling lawsuits "privately" with many of these suspicious cases.  

The Center for Disease Control did a big study into this. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html). Their findings are similar to a lot of other studies deemed credible by the scientific community. You can argue that maybe big pharmacy companies are involved and have an agenda to push, but I personally don't buy it.
(quote)
I am unimpressed by this.  It looks as if it was prepared as a public service awareness bulletin. The CDC is an administrative agency under the Executive Branch of the government.  The largest donations to the candidates are coming from the medical/Pharma community.  They have the most powerful lobbies.  

The CDC has been forced to look at this as a direct result of Jenny McCarthy's Autism Organzation and the force of parents demanding answers.  Great pressure has fallen on industry to respond, not unlike the movement Michael J. Fox has spearheaded work on Parkinson's. And, the Beach Boys have worked on ocean pollution/environmental causes, with Surfrider. (now, we are BB relevant!)

And, I have no involvement with this particular issue,  except in the capacity of teaching children with Aspergers in regular ed, and mainstreaming, but have worked on some environmental exposure issues and have been "schooled" in how these agencies work, in an activist/professional capacity, and how science is influenced by industry.

CDC policies are often, sadly, politically driven, are responding to a "squeaky wheel."

 But at least, now, the issues are open for debate, and that could not be a bad thing.  ;)
(quote)
But yes, lets get back on topic. :)

Yes, indeed!


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 12:01:07 PM
There are now, I'm told ways of requesting vaccines prepared without mercury.  I would imagine you'd have to be an knowledgeable and aggressive parent.  They are in the best position to advocate for their kids.   
But you do bring a lot of expertise to the table working with these kids, while the discussion rages, and can perhaps provide insight into.  They are indeed lucky to have you. 
And we are wandering off the music track...
That's the thing though. Pharmacy companies can now prepare vaccinations without mercury. At this point they don't stand to lose anything if they remove mercury from their vaccines.
Then, why don't they, if what we know about mercury poison, and we do an environmental cleanup when there is a mercury spill in a high school laboratory.

They actually are doing it slowly. Despite the fact that most studies by the CDC don't support the vaccine autism hypothesis, there is nevertheless a strong movement to eliminate or reduce the use of mercury as a preservative in vaccines going on today, so it is happening and the Pharmacy companies are not being harmed.

Currently, all routinely recommended vaccines for U.S. infants are available only as mercury-free formulations or contain only trace amounts of mercury, with the exception of the inactivated influenza vaccine, the latter of which comes in a variety that contains either no mercury or only a trace of mercury if one wishes to use those varieties.

Yet despite the fact that Pharmacy companies have been doing this since the early 2000s, the rates of autism diagnoses continue to climb at an unprecedented rate. This would seem to suggest there are other factors.

They could discover that autism is mercury poisoning, remove all mercury from their vaccines, and not miss a beat or be harmed in the least bit. Were this 20 years ago, this may not be the case, but it's a small part of the reason I don't find the big pharmacy companies running things to be a great argument.
There could be a gene responsible for this, and the vaccine "triggers the event."

See my earlier comment about genes and vaccinations as the trigger. Identical twins, both getting the same vaccines, but only one develops an ASD. The study I referred to was sponsored by a university that has no claim to this issue, nor any contacts with the pharmacy companies. It's possible that vaccines could be the trigger, but not necessarily.

The Pharma companies are settling lawsuits "privately" with many of these suspicious cases.

Never heard of this. Do you have a source to back this claim up?

The Center for Disease Control did a big study into this. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html). Their findings are similar to a lot of other studies deemed credible by the scientific community. You can argue that maybe big pharmacy companies are involved and have an agenda to push, but I personally don't buy it.
I am unimpressed by this.  It looks as if it was prepared as a public service awareness bulletin. The CDC is an administrative agency under the Executive Branch of the government.  The largest donations to the candidates are coming from the medical/Pharma community.  They have the most powerful lobbies. 

The CDC has been forced to look at this as a direct result of Jenny McCarthy's Autism Organzation and the force of parents demanding answers.  Great pressure has fallen on industry to respond, not unlike the movement Michael J. Fox has spearheaded work on Parkinson's. And, the Beach Boys have worked on ocean pollution/environmental causes, with Surfrider. (now, we are BB relevant!)

And, I have no involvement with this particular issue,  except in the capacity of teaching children with Aspergers in regular ed, and mainstreaming, but have worked on some environmental exposure issues and have been "schooled" in how these agencies work, in an activist/professional capacity, and how science is influenced by industry.

CDC policies are often, sadly, politically driven, are responding to a "squeaky wheel."

 But at least, now, the issues are open for debate, and that could not be a bad thing.  ;)

It's your call if you're unimpressed by this, but again, mercury or no mercury in the vaccines, the Pharmacy companies aren't affected either way. There are a lot of myths out there about autism and I just feel as someone who happens to A) be affected by this and B) have an education in Special Education and disabilities like this, that it's my duty to step in and respond.


But yes, lets get back on topic. :)

Yes, indeed!

 :)


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Fun Is In on February 17, 2013, 01:01:38 PM
Anyone have any idea when he began to hear and then be disturbed by voices in his head?


Often, people w/ auditory hallucinations self medicate w/ street drugs leading to uncertainty about which came first, the hallucinations or the drugs.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 17, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
All Alone - you have a real passion for this and that is critical to be an effective advocate. Bravo!

There have been a couple of Vaccine Acts, one in 1986 and 1992 to provide for recovery for affected individuals.  The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986.  And the 1992 version.

I'm going to direct you to an ABA - American Bar Association article from the ABA Journal of October 1, 2010, which summarizes some events, facts and decisions relative to vaccine litigation.  It is called "The Immune Response." I found it among a myriad of decisions about vaccine litigation.  Beyond this, if you like reading court cases, there are a lot online.

What I liked about this article is that it cited other countries dealing with this problem and this forum is a global one, so it gave a multinational approach that includes more than US issues.  And it raised issues with regard adults developing symptoms post vaccination.  So, it enlarged the claims arena.

There are so many factors involved, including pre-emption, (which means, the feds intend to "occupy the field" and be the ultimate authority) administrative or non trial court remedies, but, there has been a fund set up to compensate victims under a "Vaccine Court" and court decisions which affect the ability to take a challenge outside the fund set up by a tax on each dose, which I think was about 75 cents.  There are issues of product liability and risk/benefit theories, and whether the product could have been made safer for a reasonable cost substitute. ( this is not legal advice.)

www.abajournal.com/mobile/mag_article/the_immune_response/   This link might work on tablets, etc.  

But you can probably find some version for a regular computer.  

With regard the twins issue, by extension, I've seen cases where one identical twin develops leukemia and the other identical healthy twin is the bone marrow donor.  Why one identical twin develops or is predisposed to an illness or malady, I cannot answer.  I'm not a doctor.  

But, I hope the article is helpful and will give you precedent setting case names, challenging appeal case names, and laws enacted by the government in response to Vaccine Injuries since 1986, and where the trends are going, now.

Back to the Beach Boys!   ;)


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 17, 2013, 01:40:31 PM
This is an interesting article that answers my previous question to you. However, notice the underlying theme of the article is "while we suspect vaccines play a role in developing autism, we really just don't know yet." And that's pretty much what I mentioned in the beginning. The article calls for more research and I agree.

With hot button issues such as this, in many cases I find that what people accept as the truth is relative compared to the actual truth. Our conception of what the reality is, or what we accept as the truth, is relative. The other truth is the actual truth, independent of whether anybody accepts it as such. I think it's important to search for the second truth with all issues, but as of now on the subject of what causes autism, the answer sadly eludes us in light of better evidence. Time will tell what causes it, and until then we have to be understanding and patient.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: KittyKat on February 17, 2013, 06:47:35 PM
It wasn't until Brian was in his early 20s that he had problems and that's common with adult onset mental disorders like depression and bipolar disorder. He sounded pretty normal until then.

I don't know. I had the full range of vaccines when they were still using mercury, and so did my siblings and most of my relatives, friends, and classmates, and none of us developed any autistic spectrum disorders.  Several studies have seen no link between vaccines and autism, but there could be other things/environmental factors causing it.  It's bad to have many parents wholesale refusing the vaccinate their kids when getting those diseases is a lot worse than any small health risks overall. There has to be herd immunity to keep diseases at bay.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Wirestone on February 17, 2013, 07:39:13 PM
This is the simple fact -- the parents who are refusing to vaccinate their children pose a greater and more imminent public health threat than any mercury-based preservative.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: NHC on February 17, 2013, 08:06:54 PM
Maybe Brian was vaccinated with a phonograph needle. . . . and the music just started pouring out.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 17, 2013, 09:02:55 PM
This is the simple fact -- the parents who are refusing to vaccinate their children pose a greater and more imminent public health threat than any mercury-based preservative.

Absolutely.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 17, 2013, 09:29:33 PM
Anyone have any idea when he began to hear and then be disturbed by voices in his head?


Often, people w/ auditory hallucinations self medicate w/ street drugs leading to uncertainty about which came first, the hallucinations or the drugs.

Good question...there's that story about Brian constantly talking to himself when he would play baseball, and in a Landy-era interview he did say that he would to it to get the 'voice' of Murry out of his head. I don't think he meant that literally, just as a self pep talk, but who knows?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 18, 2013, 12:32:01 AM
Marilyn once put it to me like this. Brian always had good days and bad days but the bad gradually became more frequent. 
Here are the changes over the years I perceived or have been told about.
1963-He already wants off the road and is putting on weight. Brian said in a 1964 interview that he had a health food diet in high school but found it harder to maintain on the road. His bad eatting habits stuck with him from then on.
1964-We have panic attacks on the Europe tour, and the big breakdown at the end of the year.
1965-Brian was still pretty active, and would still make the effort to go on TV or hometown gigs. It was reported later that he had a few panic attacks, but not quite breakdowns.
1966-The Pet Sounds sessions seem very tight, but by the end of the year he seems to not be as certain. He was becoming a perfectionist to the point where he would tinker too much on things. Not going on the road much at all, but still concerned enough with the live act to rehearse them hard on Good Vibrations
1967-This wasn't the big meltdown it has been made out to be. Yes his actions were odd at times, yes he seems to have lost some of his drive but he seems to have made a conscious decision to not be as competitive. He also seems to have rediscovered the joy of working with the guys. Consider this, in the 12 months after Smile (June 1967-68)  he headed three unconventional but great albums., He also played Hawaii, worked at saving it for a faux-live  studio project, and recorded roughly another LP worth of outtakes.
1968-The year began well, but by the middle of the year he seemed to be burning out for real. He went to an institution briefly, and some feel he was different when he came out. Others told me they didn't see a real difference yet. He did seem to be excited about being a dad initially, but Marilyn told Stephen Gaines that it was after they had the children that she began to get concerned. One thing should be made clear, he may not have been taking the helm like before, but he was still active in the studio the last six months of 1968 with and without The Beach Boys. He also was still making public appearances if not doing any shows. Yellow Submarine premiere, a concert where he signed autographs with the others in the entrances etc. First time he missed sessions though.
1969-Brian seems to have bounced back to a certain point. He was working a lot during this time and his focus was on the group again. He was concerned about their record sales and with Break Away tried to make a difference. A real damaging thing happened at the end of the year when Murry sold Sea Of Tunes. I feel it made him lose a little confidence, but not completely yet. He seemed to enjoy owning the Radiant Radish the first year or so.
1970-While Brian sometimes seemed unsure of himself, and was prone to panic attacks once in a while, this was one of his most active years. He lost weight, played some shows, and actually seemed to want to participate when he did. Then again he did seem torn about signing the Warner's contract and acted somewhat passive aggressive about it.
1971-Brian said this was the point he felt the Beach Boys could really record extensively without him. Through the Surf's Up sessions he was there most of the time, but he wasn't writing as much. I feel the use of Surf's Up ended his desire to be a Beach Boy for a long time. He still worked with the group but again started missing a lot of sessions. Spring seemed to perk him up briefly, but even his work there was in fits and starts.
1972-Carl once said it was here he saw Brian being self destructive with drug's cocaine. Others have told me he changed when he came back from Holland. Less willing to go out, putting on a little weight. In 1976 he said his second major breakdown happened then. In Holland I think was when Brian really started showing signs of decline.
1973 His Iowa session seemed to find him in a good frame of mind. David Sandler has told me that Brian was a pretty normal guy around him when they knew each other well from 1970-73. He did note that he wasn't into drugs so Brian didn't do them around him. Early in the year he was still well groomed, and willing to even sing a little at a local Beach Boys show. When Murry died the bottom fell out. I think this was a huge moment for him sinking further into addiction and depression. Up till then he could still appear conduct himself with some poise, not so after.
1974-He was gaining massive weight, being thrown out of clubs, stopped cutting his hair, didn't seem to shave. While word got out that Brian was eccentric as early as 1966, this was when mental illness and drug abuse really started getting talked about. He had really changed
1975-He just got worse, blanking out on old friends etc. Now he didn't even look washed, and he set about to destroy his voice on purpose.
1976-Landy seemed to help the first time, but the nervous tremors started hands shaking, leg jiggling. His issues were made fully public that year (Nick Kent's 1975 article had done the same thing but not in a media blitz) and he became an erratic performer in the studio and on stage. He still seemed aware of everything around him though, and could converse with some ease in the right mood.
1977-He seemed in good shape as a whole, but drifted slowly back into self destruction. Also the odd public behavior hadn't stopped.
1978-Now he was worse than ever as far as drugs, or depression. A lot of time was spent in the hospital, plus his presence at Beach Boys sessions crawled to a halt as LA Light began to take shape.
1979-A brief weight loss helped, but by the end of the year he was heavy again. He also seemed a but flustered at times, zoned out in interviews during the LA Light promotion. Funny enough as he began to gain weight, he briefly rallied. No incidents seemed to happen on the road, he was touring regularly, and participating in KTSA sessions. Stephen Desper was working with the group again for about a year on and off, and he noticed Brian was less confident, less of a leader than he had been from 1967-72 (Stephen left in late 1971 but helped finish the Spring album in 1972).
1980-Brian still seems on for the most part. He continued to gain weight, but he did some very lucid interviews around this time. On stage he wasn't doing much at the shows, but there was still hope he was getting better.
1981-All of a sudden Brian takes a sharp decline. Heavier than ever, his stage singing was awful. The drugs went into very high gear again, plus he seemed to stop combing his hair, wearing clean clothes etc.
1982 Well it was an all time low. He was huge, putting himself in bad situations and acting very strange on stage.
1983-92. Robot Landy Brian. Never seemed quite as aware as before. Looked good, occasionally came up with a good song, but his work declined quite a bit with Eugene in general. Most of their work (discounting a good deal of Brian Wilson the LP) was in fact terrible. Didn't make his own decisions, was no longer as lucid. Seemed damaged, not always aware.
1993-now. He's had ups and downs, but his life no longer seemed in danger. Obviously he has done some great work in the last ten years, he hadn't acted so much a vital part of the group since the early seventies during the reunion. IJWMFTT found him a little more talkative than later, but by the time he hit his late fifties you could tell that some part of him was lost forever in the cocktails Landy gave him. Part of that is age, but he never totally lost the slur in his voice. He often is stiff in public.  It's not all sad though, he still can be pretty bright, and "with it" when he is in a quiet situation. Certainly he proved he can still write, sing, and perform when he is feeling good.



Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 18, 2013, 05:53:35 AM
This is the simple fact -- the parents who are refusing to vaccinate their children pose a greater and more imminent public health threat than any mercury-based preservative.
Wirestone - in 1980 the children received 10 vaccines spaced over a couple of years.  I had my kids in the 1980's. None was administered until the baby was about 2-3 months old.  Now, there are 38 shots, more in the pipeline, and the first ones are given right at birth.  There are vaccine schedules on many websites which chart the increase x4 in vaccines, coupled with new adolescent vaccine schedules.  Do kids really need 38 shots, now, when they got 10 in the 1980's?

I'm not anti vaccine as much as skeptical of toxins used, for whatever reason, as preservative agents or whatever.  And, years back before two parents worked, children stayed home when they got chicken pox or measles (which can be a tough sickness) and acquired their own immunities.  Now, the human immune system isn't permitted to become strong and resistant on its own, and it is artificially subject to a laboratory created virus version, live, or killed and parents have little or no say in the matter, even though being a parent is a constitutional right. 

There are now, some alternative vaccine schedules, only as a result of activist parents who have become knowledgable and who refuse to be ruled by the medical-pharma lobbies, which are so strong and have paid so much money into Congress, that you can recover for a defective tire, if you get injured or your car crashes because of defective brakes, but are able to recover only in what is known as Vaccine Court.  It is an unchecked industry. Congress did recognize vaccine injuries and promulgated the Vaccine Act of 1986.

The fungal meningitis outbreak should have everyone suspicious of what happens when self-policing doesn't happen, and no oversight comes from the government agencies, who get paid the big bucks to protect us in the States.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: hypehat on February 18, 2013, 06:34:22 AM
That's rubbish.

Refusing a vaccine on the grounds that big pharma is nasty isn't good parenting, it's the exact opposite. But I guess you can make your paranoid point whilst your child dies of measles, whooping cough, meningitis A, B or C or polio or something. Stick it to the man, man.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 18, 2013, 06:46:19 AM
That's rubbish.

Refusing a vaccine on the grounds that big pharma is nasty isn't good parenting, it's the exact opposite. But I guess you can make your paranoid point whilst your child dies of measles, whooping cough, meningitis A, B or C or polio or something. Stick it to the man, man.

Yep. Washington state has had the highest numbers of parents refusing vaccinations and has seen a 1300% increase in the whooping cough. These parents should be put in jail for neglect and those who spearhead the anti-vaccs movement should likewise be thrown in jail for brainwashing people with their conspiracy theories into neglecting their children. These beliefs are a dangerous, menace to society and are part of a large over-arching movement to keep the public largely irrational and ignorant. Despicable on almost every level.

I am no fan of Big Pharma. Check the Off Topics threads and you'll see me make very pointed critiques of the system. The anti-vaccs crowd is not making these sorts of critiques. If anything they are fostering the sort of critical thinking (or lack of it) that keeps these power mechanisms going.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 18, 2013, 06:47:35 AM
Marilyn once put it to me like this. Brian always had good days and bad days but the bad gradually became more frequent. 
Here are the changes over the years I perceived or have been told about.
1963-He already wants off the road and is putting on weight. Brian said in a 1964 interview that he had a health food diet in high school but found it harder to maintain on the road. His bad eatting habits stuck with him from then on.
1964-We have panic attacks on the Europe tour, and the big breakdown at the end of the year.
1965-Brian was still pretty active, and would still make the effort to go on TV or hometown gigs. It was reported later that he had a few panic attacks, but not quite breakdowns.
1966-The Pet Sounds sessions seem very tight, but by the end of the year he seems to not be as certain. He was becoming a perfectionist to the point where he would tinker too much on things. Not going on the road much at all, but still concerned enough with the live act to rehearse them hard on Good Vibrations
1967-This wasn't the big meltdown it has been made out to be. Yes his actions were odd at times, yes he seems to have lost some of his drive but he seems to have made a conscious decision to not be as competitive. He also seems to have rediscovered the joy of working with the guys. Consider this, in the 12 months after Smile (June 1967-68)  he headed three unconventional but great albums., He also played Hawaii, worked at saving it for a faux-live  studio project, and recorded roughly another LP worth of outtakes.
1968-The year began well, but by the middle of the year he seemed to be burning out for real. He went to an institution briefly, and some feel he was different when he came out. Others told me they didn't see a real difference yet. He did seem to be excited about being a dad initially, but Marilyn told Stephen Gaines that it was after they had the children that she began to get concerned. One thing should be made clear, he may not have been taking the helm like before, but he was still active in the studio the last six months of 1968 with and without The Beach Boys. He also was still making public appearances if not doing any shows. Yellow Submarine premiere, a concert where he signed autographs with the others in the entrances etc. First time he missed sessions though.
1969-Brian seems to have bounced back to a certain point. He was working a lot during this time and his focus was on the group again. He was concerned about their record sales and with Break Away tried to make a difference. A real damaging thing happened at the end of the year when Murry sold Sea Of Tunes. I feel it made him lose a little confidence, but not completely yet. He seemed to enjoy owning the Radiant Radish the first year or so.
1970-While Brian sometimes seemed unsure of himself, and was prone to panic attacks once in a while, this was one of his most active years. He lost weight, played some shows, and actually seemed to want to participate when he did. Then again he did seem torn about signing the Warner's contract and acted somewhat passive aggressive about it.
1971-Brian said this was the point he felt the Beach Boys could really record extensively without him. Through the Surf's Up sessions he was there most of the time, but he wasn't writing as much. I feel the use of Surf's Up ended his desire to be a Beach Boy for a long time. He still worked with the group but again started missing a lot of sessions. Spring seemed to perk him up briefly, but even his work there was in fits and starts.
1972-Carl once said it was here he saw Brian being self destructive with drug's cocaine. Others have told me he changed when he came back from Holland. Less willing to go out, putting on a little weight. In 1976 he said his second major breakdown happened then. In Holland I think was when Brian really started showing signs of decline.
1973 His Iowa session seemed to find him in a good frame of mind. David Sandler has told me that Brian was a pretty normal guy around him when they knew each other well from 1970-73. He did note that he wasn't into drugs so Brian didn't do them around him. Early in the year he was still well groomed, and willing to even sing a little at a local Beach Boys show. When Murry died the bottom fell out. I think this was a huge moment for him sinking further into addiction and depression. Up till then he could still appear conduct himself with some poise, not so after.
1974-He was gaining massive weight, being thrown out of clubs, stopped cutting his hair, didn't seem to shave. While word got out that Brian was eccentric as early as 1966, this was when mental illness and drug abuse really started getting talked about. He had really changed
1975-He just got worse, blanking out on old friends etc. Now he didn't even look washed, and he set about to destroy his voice on purpose.
1976-Landy seemed to help the first time, but the nervous tremors started hands shaking, leg jiggling. His issues were made fully public that year (Nick Kent's 1975 article had done the same thing but not in a media blitz) and he became an erratic performer in the studio and on stage. He still seemed aware of everything around him though, and could converse with some ease in the right mood.
1977-He seemed in good shape as a whole, but drifted slowly back into self destruction. Also the odd public behavior hadn't stopped.
1978-Now he was worse than ever as far as drugs, or depression. A lot of time was spent in the hospital, plus his presence at Beach Boys sessions crawled to a halt as LA Light began to take shape.
1979-A brief weight loss helped, but by the end of the year he was heavy again. He also seemed a but flustered at times, zoned out in interviews during the LA Light promotion. Funny enough as he began to gain weight, he briefly rallied. No incidents seemed to happen on the road, he was touring regularly, and participating in KTSA sessions. Stephen Desper was working with the group again for about a year on and off, and he noticed Brian was less confident, less of a leader than he had been from 1967-72 (Stephen left in late 1971 but helped finish the Spring album in 1972).
1980-Brian still seems on for the most part. He continued to gain weight, but he did some very lucid interviews around this time. On stage he wasn't doing much at the shows, but there was still hope he was getting better.
1981-All of a sudden Brian takes a sharp decline. Heavier than ever, his stage singing was awful. The drugs went into very high gear again, plus he seemed to stop combing his hair, wearing clean clothes etc.
1982 Well it was an all time low. He was huge, putting himself in bad situations and acting very strange on stage.
1983-92. Robot Landy Brian. Never seemed quite as aware as before. Looked good, occasionally came up with a good song, but his work declined quite a bit with Eugene in general. Most of their work (discounting a good deal of Brian Wilson the LP) was in fact terrible. Didn't make his own decisions, was no longer as lucid. Seemed damaged, not always aware.
1993-now. He's had ups and downs, but his life no longer seemed in danger. Obviously he has done some great work in the last ten years, he hadn't acted so much a vital part of the group since the early seventies during the reunion. IJWMFTT found him a little more talkative than later, but by the time he hit his late fifties you could tell that some part of him was lost forever in the cocktails Landy gave him. Part of that is age, but he never totally lost the slur in his voice. He often is stiff in public.  It's not all sad though, he still can be pretty bright, and "with it" when he is in a quiet situation. Certainly he proved he can still write, sing, and perform when he is feeling good.



Mike - thank you so much for this in depth discussion. Very very interesting stuff though I might make more of his post-Friends "breakdown".


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 18, 2013, 07:15:26 AM
That's rubbish.

Refusing a vaccine on the grounds that big pharma is nasty isn't good parenting, it's the exact opposite. But I guess you can make your paranoid point whilst your child dies of measles, whooping cough, meningitis A, B or C or polio or something. Stick it to the man, man.
Just for clarity, hypehat - I never refused a vaccine for my kids, as the diseases for which the vaccines were given, were "reasonable under the circumstances." Interestingly, the smallpox vaccine had just been discontinued which I would have had administered, because it it catastrophic. Smallpox was considered eradicated, at the time.

They were for catastrophic diseases like polio, tetanus, diphtheria, rubella, and not what was known as "common childhood diseases" which virtually all children got when they were exposed playing outside, or in school, and which kids hardly do these days, (they have "play dates") and the vaccine schedule was reasonable.  

The vaccine schedule is unreasonable in my view, and I am not alone in that opinion, as apparently Congress agrees that there have been Vaccine Injuries. And, as a result of congressional hearings, etc., in order to get a law passed that compensates, in some way for seizures, brain swelling, learning disabilities, language deficits, etc., many parents and medical experts went to Congress because they have or treated injured kids, not because they are paranoid, but could not get relief to care or support their kids.  

Parent have better things to do with their time, until there is no recourse but to expose a danger to their kids with a congressperson's  support. They passed a law in 1986. That is not paranoia, but helpful information at work. And about 30 years of recognition that there is a problem. The Congress created a court, just for vaccine cases. Is that paranoia?  

That is my right, but my opinion is "informed" from reading many cases of injured children and adults who suffered adverse effects from Swine flu vaccine injuries, from 1976, Guillain-Barre syndrome, H1N1 miscarriages, DPT injuries, MMR injuries, ad infinitum.

dangerousprescriptiondrugs.weebly.com/pharma---payouts.html

childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxautism/

Hope these links open.



Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 18, 2013, 07:23:52 AM

The vaccine schedule is unreasonable in my view, and I am not alone in that opinion, as apparently Congress agrees that there have been Vaccine Injuries. And, as a result of congressional hearings, etc., in order to get a law passed that compensates, in some way for seizures, brain swelling, learning disabilities, language deficits, etc., many parents and medical experts went to Congress because they have or treated injured kids, not because they are paranoid, but could not get relief to care or support their kids.  

Here's a good article about US Congress's relationship to the anti-vaccine conspiracy theory:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html)


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: myonlysunshine on February 18, 2013, 07:32:29 AM
Here's a good article about US Congress's relationship to the anti-vaccine conspiracy theory:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html)

Thank you for posting this rockandroll. That article confirms a lot of what I already mentioned in my previous posts.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 18, 2013, 07:49:32 AM

The vaccine schedule is unreasonable in my view, and I am not alone in that opinion, as apparently Congress agrees that there have been Vaccine Injuries. And, as a result of congressional hearings, etc., in order to get a law passed that compensates, in some way for seizures, brain swelling, learning disabilities, language deficits, etc., many parents and medical experts went to Congress because they have or treated injured kids, not because they are paranoid, but could not get relief to care or support their kids.  

Here's a good article about US Congress's relationship to the anti-vaccine conspiracy theory:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html)

Thanks for that link. Pertussis is dangerous, and I should have included it in my catastrophic list. And my kids were vaccinated against it.  I qualified the vaccine issue. I'm not anti-vax, and I was pretty clear.  That is extreme.  I'd like to see more oversight, that is legit, by neutral experts who are not on a drug company payola machine payroll, and compensation with educational support and home care funding for injured parties. Just fairness.  If you hurt someone; you pay. Plain and simple.

At the bottom of the link, is a comment on "vaccine timing, and vaccine dosage." It was from a Dutch study.  There is room for more flexibility in vaccine scheduling.   And more oversight, that is free from lobbying influence.  They get millions.  Some states have passed laws to prevent doctors from getting "gifts." It is a big business, no less than the oil and energy companies.  And, much of it is public information.

Don't think that industry money is not painting "anti-vaxers" as "nut jobs" because they have a big bottom line to protect, government contracts to vaccinate the military, etc.  There are billions at stake, much of which is tax payer subsidized , and experimentation of vaccines done in third world countries, where most people have no legal access, and who have been injured as well, being used as guinea pigs.  Just saying...

There are two sides to the coin.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 18, 2013, 08:03:51 AM

Thanks for that link. Pertussis is dangerous, and I should have included it in my catastrophic list. And my kids were vaccinated against it.  I qualified the vaccine issue. I'm not anti-vax, and I was pretty clear.  

As the article noted, the Congressman who spouted a ton of anti-vax rhetoric also prefaced the rhetoric by saying that he wasn't "anti-vax."

Quote
There is room for more flexibility in vaccine scheduling.

For absolutely no reason. A child could theoretically get 100,000 vaccines at once and it wouldn't cause any harm.

Quote
And more oversight, that is free from lobbying influence.  They get millions.  Some states have passed laws to prevent doctors from getting "gifts." It is a big business, no less than the oil and energy companies.  And, much of it is public information.

This doesn't explain that the scientific consensus that vaccines are harmless is not just a United States phenomenon. It is agreed by the overwhelming consensus of scentific communities that exist far outside the sphere of Big Pharma lobby influence.

Is Big Phara a big business? Yes. Is that problematic? Yes. You know what is also problematic? Hysteria "sky-is-falling" arguments like yours that undermine the real activist movement that are trying to raise awareness of the real problems associated with the health care industry. As long as people believe that the problem with Big Pharma is simply that they are over-vaccinating people to the extent that whooping cough numbers don't spike by 1300% then you can feel comforted by the fact that the system will continue forever. This is why big business adores conspiracy theories - nothing keeps big business going better than conspiracy theories.

Quote
Don't think that industry money is not painting "anti-vaxers" as "nut jobs" because they have a big bottom line to protect, government contracts to vaccinate the military, etc.

 ::)

I've researched conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists for years and this is such a familiar, virtually Xeroxed response from what must be a Conspiracy Theorist FAQ Handbook that I haven't come across yet. Holocaust deniers are painted as "nut jobs" because it's in the best interests of the Jews that are in control. 9/11 was an inside jobbers are painted as "nut jobs" because it's in the best interest of the government who stands to gain from 9/11.

In fact, the truth is much more plausible. People (not just "industry money") consider these conspiracy theorists to be "nut jobs" because they are, in fact, nut jobs. But, of course, what nut job who is already a paranoid conspiracy theorist would believe that they are actually a nut job rather than a victim of a conspiracy to make everyone think they are a nut job...right?

Quote
There are two sides to the coin.

Yes. One is true and one is false and driven by an industry to deviate people from real political activism and, as a result, cause enormous harm.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 18, 2013, 09:08:49 AM
Rockandroll - I disagree with your position, but respect your right to have it.  America was built on activism.  And, a three pronged system of checks and balances for a reason.  

Transparency is lacking as a result of influence peddling.  I won't apologize for my position, because it is a result of reading many legal cases, many of which, had what I consider to be an unfair and harsh result.  I am glad you concede that the business aspect of medicine could be problematic.  What ever happened to "first, do no harm?"

Just as an example, to analogize, we have a huge drug epidemic in this country. And when OxyContin was manufactured, the company knew the potential for abuse.  They knew (because they are supposed to test for misuse,) that it would produce a heroin high if chewed or snorted and was very dangerous if it fell into the wrong hands.  And it did.

The state of Kentucky was one of the first to sue, and recover monies for drug treatment for the victims.  That was the tip of the iceberg.  And the misrepresentations were huge. The president and chief medical officer pled guilty to charges of fraudulent marketing and making claims not supported by research.

If this industry behaves this way towards pain killers, do they behave differently with vaccine promotion?  I think not.  I've gone to too many funerals of former students who overdosed and started off with a very innocent looking pill.  If you hurt someone; you should pay.  And always good to know who funded a scientist's research.  Not to know is just looking through "rose colored glasses."

Parents whose precious kids got sick after a shot, deserve answers, and should have them.  JMHO

They don't get a pass from me.  

www.erinmariedaly/com/clips/ky_attorney_general_oxycontin.pdf

(For educational purposes)

Are all vaccines bad? Absolutely not.  Can they be made safer? Probably. Is there a moderate position? Parents in my era rarely heard of autism connected to vaccines, and we did not challenge a vaccine schedule. This is something that happened more frequently since that time and required some attention.  Do we need to artificially eliminate everything including colds, with vaccines?  

Does this industry need oversight when some of those in charge have been found guilty of falsehood?  You decide.

Mods - please move this thread.

Brian's health status concerns his doctors, his family and is none of our business.  JMHO
  


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: I. Spaceman on February 18, 2013, 09:12:10 AM
There is an incredible amount of truth in that post, Rocknroll. Thanks for that.
How do people think such a wide range of conspiracy theory gets on the big business/government controlled airwaves and web? If it is such outlaw, underground, suppressed information?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Don Malcolm on February 18, 2013, 09:49:19 AM
Mike, thanks for the yearly log. I agree with r'n'r that the incident after Friends (possibly in some way related to the first "plundering" of the SMILE material in that time frame) is an important interim step in what was a gradually escalating set of emotional difficulties. As I think virtually all of us agree, given all that happened to him, it's a freakin' miracle that he's still with us and still making music.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 18, 2013, 10:28:34 AM

Brian's health status concerns his doctors, his family and is none of our business.  JMHO
  

Brian's management has used his mental health concerns as a marketing slant ever since 1976's "Brian's Back" campaign.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 18, 2013, 10:52:35 AM

Brian's health status concerns his doctors, his family and is none of our business.  JMHO
  

Brian's management has used his mental health concerns as a marketing slant ever since 1976's "Brian's Back" campaign.

The discredited "medical" manager, who faced ethics violations? 

And, "Brian is Back" I think is a great song! Complete with the "You Still Believe in Me" measure, woven in, a sublime reference to Pet Sounds, and the Mike/Carl split lead.   ;)


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Mr. Cohen on February 18, 2013, 10:54:25 AM
I have it on good authority that Brian was a perfectly normal boy until he was vaccinated for polio. After that, he started obsessing over The Four Freshmen and drinking milkshakes.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on February 18, 2013, 11:50:44 AM
Mike, thanks for the yearly log. I agree with r'n'r that the incident after Friends (possibly in some way related to the first "plundering" of the SMILE material in that time frame) is an important interim step in what was a gradually escalating set of emotional difficulties. As I think virtually all of us agree, given all that happened to him, it's a freakin' miracle that he's still with us and still making music.

I think a really important part of Mike's chronology too is that 1967, while bad, was not quite what it has been made out to be. I think because the Smile myth looms so large, some fans can only think of the Beach Boys in terms of "pre-Smile-Smile-post-Smile." And because, in that narrative, Smile is such a hinge point people end up believing that this was the breaking point in Brian's mental health when in reality, as Mike points out, it was a bad bump in a long road that would see much worse declines and severe breaks. And it's also why people, I think somewhat incorrectly, place a great deal of misplaced blame on Brian's LSD trips which probably didn't help but was certainly not the catalyst that people made it out to be.

As far as this "private issue" is concerned, I agree to an extent. However, I think we would be breaking the rules of decency and decorum if we were looking to go find Brian and ask him about all these issues. No one is doing that. Instead, we are talking about issues that have been matters of public record for years, and discussed to a great extent in Beach Boys sanctioned documentaries, films, and books.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 18, 2013, 02:05:20 PM
Here's a good article about US Congress's relationship to the anti-vaccine conspiracy theory:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html)

Thank you for posting this rockandroll. That article confirms a lot of what I already mentioned in my previous posts.
The video from Canada told the story @52 minutes into the hearing.  The panelists gave the old "party line" and propaganda about "tools in the toolbox" but I bet they wish they had some Immodium when the video rolled.  They went to med school and took chemistry and must have seen lab evacuations if and when mercury was spilled.  Stall and frustrate parents.  Delay children services.  

Thanks for posting even if we don't agree.   ;)


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Bicyclerider on February 18, 2013, 02:09:02 PM
Mike, thanks for the yearly log. I agree with r'n'r that the incident after Friends (possibly in some way related to the first "plundering" of the SMILE material in that time frame) is an important interim step in what was a gradually escalating set of emotional difficulties. As I think virtually all of us agree, given all that happened to him, it's a freakin' miracle that he's still with us and still making music.

I think a really important part of Mike's chronology too is that 1967, while bad, was not quite what it has been made out to be. I think because the Smile myth looms so large, some fans can only think of the Beach Boys in terms of "pre-Smile-Smile-post-Smile." And because, in that narrative, Smile is such a hinge point people end up believing that this was the breaking point in Brian's mental health when in reality, as Mike points out, it was a bad bump in a long road that would see much worse declines and severe breaks. And it's also why people, I think somewhat incorrectly, place a great deal of misplaced blame on Brian's LSD trips which probably didn't help but was certainly not the catalyst that people made it out to be.

As far as this "private issue" is concerned, I agree to an extent. However, I think we would be breaking the rules of decency and decorum if we were looking to go find Brian and ask him about all these issues. No one is doing that. Instead, we are talking about issues that have been matters of public record for years, and discussed to a great extent in Beach Boys sanctioned documentaries, films, and books.

If I remember correctly Peter Carlin's book describes how Brian seemed "off" to some of his high school crowd to the point of making them uncomfortable.  So while not rising to the level of a breakdown or psychiatric diagnosis, the roots of Brian's problems seem to go back to his teenage years.  And to my mind to a large extent precipitated by mental and physical abuse by his father.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 18, 2013, 02:51:02 PM
Can we please stay on topic? Mike posted a lengthy response that was all but ignored except by a few.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: harrisonjon on February 18, 2013, 02:56:06 PM
How much is just adapting to being:

1) deaf in one ear

2) shy

3) freaked out by fame?

Then there's the eternal question of 'what is normal anyway?' Often normal is just being able to maintain a front, which is a skill Brian never really had. If anything he's too transparent. We can hide our discomfort around crowds but he never has, even in 1963.

How long did he truly enjoy being famous? Six months, maybe? Then it wore him down, as it would any extra-shy man. Then there was the pressure of two albums a year plus touring. I'd be f***ed as well if I were him in the 1960s.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: hypehat on February 18, 2013, 03:57:36 PM
Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on February 18, 2013, 04:07:40 PM
Can we please stay on topic? Mike posted a lengthy response that was all but ignored except by a few.

OK.....Mike, thanks for taking the time to do that post; that was a lot of typing! And, I agree with over 90% of it. I only take exception with two points.

First, yes, I believe that at times Brian was self-conscious about his high voice, or as he termed it "feminine" vocals. And, yes, I believe that he wanted a more masculine voice as he got older. And, yes, I agree that he sometimes intentionally sang more gruff and masculine. But, I will never concede that he intentionally tried to ruin his voice or get it to sound rougher or masculine by INTENTIONALLY ALTERING IT PHYSICALLY. He chained smoked because of his addictive personality and his addiction to nicotine. His vocal chords were irreparably damaged by excessive cocaine use. Essentially his vocal chords were scorched. I don't believe Brian knew the extent to which he was ruining his voice; it happened in a relatively short period of time.

Second, I do not believe that Brian's vocals in 1981 were THAT bad. I saw the Beach Boys a couple of times without Carl and Brian was given a few extra leads which he handled fine. Not great, but fine. I saw him nail the lead to "Don't Worry Baby" I think in Hershey, PA. I know I'm in the minority but I enjoyed parts - parts - of his vocals on that July 5, 1981 TV broadcast. Brian was wavering between trying to sing high or low. Yes, he struggled with his falsetto, but when he sang in a lower register it was strong. I mean, he was actually holding notes and appeared to be really "singing". It turned out to be a slight precursor to his solo career. When Brian emerged with Landy in 1983, almost all of Brian's vocals were deep, strong, and almost shouty. While I preferred the deep 1981 vocals, I never cared for his post-1982 vocals - at all.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 18, 2013, 04:20:24 PM
I think fair points are raised. The 1968 breakdown was a big deal, but as far as productivity it didn't slow him down near as much musically as his later issues. I also take into account that in 1969-70 Brian seemed to be doing better for a time. Some of the home movies of him in the late sixties show him playing with the kids, not acting withdrawn etc. These are seen in the A&E bio for one. A lot that are used during the 1966 era actually come between 1968-71. Now that can be dismissed I guess, but the home movies used in IJWMFTT in the Still I Dream Of It segement show that by 1973-75 he couldn't even smile for the camera.

I know the voice thing is hard to fathom, but I have had too many people tell me the same thing about Brian in 1975. He was trying to smoke constantly at that point to ruin his voice. Even Marilyn said that was the case at the time. She still felt bad that he did it saying that though she and everyone else liked his voice the way it was she couldn't convince him it was good at the time.

The vocal thing is subjective I suppose. I find the 1981-82 concert tapes to be hard going. I think the cocaine tape has some good singing mixed with some wild moments, and I also think Stevie is a better vocal than most stuff since. I do think the 1983-91 Landy voice is the worst so I guess we agree to a point.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: Mikie on February 18, 2013, 04:21:40 PM
Can we please stay on topic? Mike posted a lengthy response that was all but ignored except by a few.

Mike who?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on February 18, 2013, 04:32:20 PM
I know the voice thing is hard to fathom, but I have had too many people tell me the same thing about Brian in 1975. He was trying to smoke constantly at that point to ruin his voice. Even Marilyn said that was the case at the time. She still felt bad that he did it saying that though she and everyone else liked his voice the way it was she couldn't convince him it was good at the time.

Hey, Mike, thanks for the quick response. Not to get into a Jon Stebbins or Stephen Desper situation, but I'm wondering.....Did BRIAN ever state, in any interview, that he was chain smoking to intentionally alter the sound of his voice?
 
There's a lot of regrettable situations and circumstances in Brian Wilson's life and career, but his emotional and physical decline in 1974-76 is, to me, the most tragic.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Mikie on February 18, 2013, 04:45:54 PM
Many, many times I've wanted to start a thread on that very subject. Especially after all the threads that talk about coke and hash and cigarette abuse around '74 and '75. I have a real hard time believing the cigarettes on purpose angle. Always have. Brian may have stated it once or twice, but until I hear him admit it in person in an interview, I'm relucrtant to believe it. Even then, he'll say one thing in an interview and another thing during another so what are you to believe???????


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 18, 2013, 04:54:42 PM
Well again I know it seems impossible but I talked to at least four or five  people around Brian at the time who told me the exact same story including Marilyn so I think it is true. I did ask Brian about the vocal change without bringing up any self destructive behavior. He said he wanted to "try something new".


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Cam Mott on February 18, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
How much is just adapting to being:

1) deaf in one ear

2) shy

3) freaked out by fame?

Then there's the eternal question of 'what is normal anyway?' Often normal is just being able to maintain a front, which is a skill Brian never really had. If anything he's too transparent. We can hide our discomfort around crowds but he never has, even in 1963.

How long did he truly enjoy being famous? Six months, maybe? Then it wore him down, as it would any extra-shy man. Then there was the pressure of two albums a year plus touring. I'd be f***ed as well if I were him in the 1960s.

I wonder too. And to be a genius who just thinks and does different by definition. I agree with Mike but to me you can see his early time as just a special guy with a special superstitious mind who has an occasional panic attack. Later he seems like a brilliant competitive guys who doesn't meet his def of being competitive anymore. I'm sure drug abuse was a problem and I can believe mental illness or brain damage eventually was in play. I don't know what I'm talking about and anyone with definitive knowledge would be prohibited from talking about Brian I suppose anyway, but I sometimes feel mental illness has been gone to too easily and which is maybe a function of the Brian-as-victim ethos that somehow got started long ago.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Mikie on February 18, 2013, 05:52:44 PM
I have a hard time with it. If he knew he couldn't sing high anymore or maintain that same trademark falsetto that made he and the Beach Boys famous, why would he mess with that on purpose. He used (tried) his falsetto on 15 Big Ones and Love You and beyond and with the exception of Matchpoint Of Our Love, it sounded forced and not quite up to standard. I wonder what he thought then after he and the other Beach Boys heard that played back. Even it the harmony stack with the original Beach Boys, it would never be the same. I'm sure they were dismayed and I'll bet you anything they new it wasn't contrived - Brian had no choice in the matter - his vocal chords were permanately damaged. Now if he said that he did it on purpose after he'd already damaged it, that would make sense. He speaking voice in general and singing voice started deteriorating in late 1974 and REALLY deteriorated in 1975. So when he wanted to sing high, he could, but not like he did even in the early 70's. So you can still see that he wanted to sing high during some songs post 1975, but he couldn't quite hit those same high notes that he did in the 60's and early 70's because of the smokes and cokes. He had a chance to reverse it, then when it was too late, he couldn't and had no choice in the matter.  

When I think of this issue, I think about what McCartney said after he did acid, but not too much. He said he just wanted to be able to come back afterwards. Brian's original voice never really did come back afterwards.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Kurosawa on February 18, 2013, 09:05:30 PM
Has Brian ever had his vocal cords worked on?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: KittyKat on February 18, 2013, 10:31:11 PM
Has Brian ever had his vocal cords worked on?

I doubt it. If he did, he should sue the surgeon just like Julie Andrews did.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 18, 2013, 10:54:21 PM
Some of Brian's vocal changes weren't necessarily entirely related to damage. He had damage, yes, but he was also using his voice differently, even when singing high. Oddly enough, some of his Landy-era demos, such as 'Don't Let Her Know She's an Angel' and 'Walking on Water', feature him trying to sing in his old style, only by this time his voice was shot. The weird part is, once it came time to record songs for albums, he sang them completely differently.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: Jay on February 18, 2013, 11:07:23 PM
Some of Brian's vocal changes weren't necessarily entirely related to damage. He had damage, yes, but he was also using his voice differently, even when singing high. Oddly enough, some of his Landy-era demos, such as 'Don't Let Her Know She's an Angel' and 'Walking on Water', feature him trying to sing in his old style, only by this time his voice was shot. The weird part is, once it came time to record songs for albums, he sang them completely differently.
I was just thinking the other day that in that demo of DLHKSAA, Brian seems to have a certain tone to his voice that sounded similar to his 1960's voice. Not the actual singing per se, but he would say certain words, or parts of words, and it struck me at how similar it sounded to the old Brian.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: filledeplage on February 19, 2013, 05:24:52 AM
Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Paul J B on February 19, 2013, 07:25:46 AM
He's a public figure. People will be discussing his mental state long after he is gone. No different than talking about Vincent van Gogh. After exiting the 50th tour at the Marcus Theater last July, A woman walking close to me commented to someone else......" He suffered a major stroke you know so it's amazing he is even out there onstage".......I almost corrected her, but decided I could not begin to explain what we know or think we know so I let it go.

This thread could be broken down to "seem off' to who? family, friends, colleges, fans........Did fans think much of anything until his '75-'76 "comeback" when he came back into the public eye and was clearly not the same Beach Boy Brian they had known? I first became a fan in '74 and had no idea at first that the big gruff overweight guy was responsible for the whole thing and was the one belting out the trademark falsetto all over Endless Summer.  Hal Blaine comments in one of the video bio's that Brian would show signs of mental disorder in the studio sessions way back.





Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 19, 2013, 05:17:43 PM
Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 
I do try to be sensitive in that I don't make anything public that I think would hurt anyone. I just wanted people to realize that the changes started early and were very slow in manifesting themselves.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Jim V. on February 19, 2013, 06:39:41 PM
Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 
I do try to be sensitive in that I don't make anything public that I think would hurt anyone. I just wanted people to realize that the changes started early and were very slow in manifesting themselves.

You know what would be awesome?? The publication of your book, Mike! Pleeeeeeeeeeeease.

Sorry to take the thread off-topic, but we NEED your book. What's goin' on?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Shady on February 19, 2013, 07:17:32 PM
Marilyn once put it to me like this. Brian always had good days and bad days but the bad gradually became more frequent. 
Here are the changes over the years I perceived or have been told about.
1963-He already wants off the road and is putting on weight. Brian said in a 1964 interview that he had a health food diet in high school but found it harder to maintain on the road. His bad eatting habits stuck with him from then on.
1964-We have panic attacks on the Europe tour, and the big breakdown at the end of the year.
1965-Brian was still pretty active, and would still make the effort to go on TV or hometown gigs. It was reported later that he had a few panic attacks, but not quite breakdowns.
1966-The Pet Sounds sessions seem very tight, but by the end of the year he seems to not be as certain. He was becoming a perfectionist to the point where he would tinker too much on things. Not going on the road much at all, but still concerned enough with the live act to rehearse them hard on Good Vibrations
1967-This wasn't the big meltdown it has been made out to be. Yes his actions were odd at times, yes he seems to have lost some of his drive but he seems to have made a conscious decision to not be as competitive. He also seems to have rediscovered the joy of working with the guys. Consider this, in the 12 months after Smile (June 1967-68)  he headed three unconventional but great albums., He also played Hawaii, worked at saving it for a faux-live  studio project, and recorded roughly another LP worth of outtakes.
1968-The year began well, but by the middle of the year he seemed to be burning out for real. He went to an institution briefly, and some feel he was different when he came out. Others told me they didn't see a real difference yet. He did seem to be excited about being a dad initially, but Marilyn told Stephen Gaines that it was after they had the children that she began to get concerned. One thing should be made clear, he may not have been taking the helm like before, but he was still active in the studio the last six months of 1968 with and without The Beach Boys. He also was still making public appearances if not doing any shows. Yellow Submarine premiere, a concert where he signed autographs with the others in the entrances etc. First time he missed sessions though.
1969-Brian seems to have bounced back to a certain point. He was working a lot during this time and his focus was on the group again. He was concerned about their record sales and with Break Away tried to make a difference. A real damaging thing happened at the end of the year when Murry sold Sea Of Tunes. I feel it made him lose a little confidence, but not completely yet. He seemed to enjoy owning the Radiant Radish the first year or so.
1970-While Brian sometimes seemed unsure of himself, and was prone to panic attacks once in a while, this was one of his most active years. He lost weight, played some shows, and actually seemed to want to participate when he did. Then again he did seem torn about signing the Warner's contract and acted somewhat passive aggressive about it.
1971-Brian said this was the point he felt the Beach Boys could really record extensively without him. Through the Surf's Up sessions he was there most of the time, but he wasn't writing as much. I feel the use of Surf's Up ended his desire to be a Beach Boy for a long time. He still worked with the group but again started missing a lot of sessions. Spring seemed to perk him up briefly, but even his work there was in fits and starts.
1972-Carl once said it was here he saw Brian being self destructive with drug's cocaine. Others have told me he changed when he came back from Holland. Less willing to go out, putting on a little weight. In 1976 he said his second major breakdown happened then. In Holland I think was when Brian really started showing signs of decline.
1973 His Iowa session seemed to find him in a good frame of mind. David Sandler has told me that Brian was a pretty normal guy around him when they knew each other well from 1970-73. He did note that he wasn't into drugs so Brian didn't do them around him. Early in the year he was still well groomed, and willing to even sing a little at a local Beach Boys show. When Murry died the bottom fell out. I think this was a huge moment for him sinking further into addiction and depression. Up till then he could still appear conduct himself with some poise, not so after.
1974-He was gaining massive weight, being thrown out of clubs, stopped cutting his hair, didn't seem to shave. While word got out that Brian was eccentric as early as 1966, this was when mental illness and drug abuse really started getting talked about. He had really changed
1975-He just got worse, blanking out on old friends etc. Now he didn't even look washed, and he set about to destroy his voice on purpose.
1976-Landy seemed to help the first time, but the nervous tremors started hands shaking, leg jiggling. His issues were made fully public that year (Nick Kent's 1975 article had done the same thing but not in a media blitz) and he became an erratic performer in the studio and on stage. He still seemed aware of everything around him though, and could converse with some ease in the right mood.
1977-He seemed in good shape as a whole, but drifted slowly back into self destruction. Also the odd public behavior hadn't stopped.
1978-Now he was worse than ever as far as drugs, or depression. A lot of time was spent in the hospital, plus his presence at Beach Boys sessions crawled to a halt as LA Light began to take shape.
1979-A brief weight loss helped, but by the end of the year he was heavy again. He also seemed a but flustered at times, zoned out in interviews during the LA Light promotion. Funny enough as he began to gain weight, he briefly rallied. No incidents seemed to happen on the road, he was touring regularly, and participating in KTSA sessions. Stephen Desper was working with the group again for about a year on and off, and he noticed Brian was less confident, less of a leader than he had been from 1967-72 (Stephen left in late 1971 but helped finish the Spring album in 1972).
1980-Brian still seems on for the most part. He continued to gain weight, but he did some very lucid interviews around this time. On stage he wasn't doing much at the shows, but there was still hope he was getting better.
1981-All of a sudden Brian takes a sharp decline. Heavier than ever, his stage singing was awful. The drugs went into very high gear again, plus he seemed to stop combing his hair, wearing clean clothes etc.
1982 Well it was an all time low. He was huge, putting himself in bad situations and acting very strange on stage.
1983-92. Robot Landy Brian. Never seemed quite as aware as before. Looked good, occasionally came up with a good song, but his work declined quite a bit with Eugene in general. Most of their work (discounting a good deal of Brian Wilson the LP) was in fact terrible. Didn't make his own decisions, was no longer as lucid. Seemed damaged, not always aware.
1993-now. He's had ups and downs, but his life no longer seemed in danger. Obviously he has done some great work in the last ten years, he hadn't acted so much a vital part of the group since the early seventies during the reunion. IJWMFTT found him a little more talkative than later, but by the time he hit his late fifties you could tell that some part of him was lost forever in the cocktails Landy gave him. Part of that is age, but he never totally lost the slur in his voice. He often is stiff in public.  It's not all sad though, he still can be pretty bright, and "with it" when he is in a quiet situation. Certainly he proved he can still write, sing, and perform when he is feeling good.





This is a fantastic post.

Thank you!


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Jay on February 19, 2013, 08:30:55 PM
Indeed, Mike's post is one of the better things I've ever read on this board. Although, I would say that Brian's onstage behavior I think may have been worse than implied. Take this clip from Maryland 1977 for example. Watch what Brian does after Feel Flows. While Carl introduces Dennis(who then introduces the next song), Brian is completely zoned out, singing and playing bass to whatever is playing in his head. It's like he forgot that he and his band are in front of thousands of people, and supposed to be playing a concert. I think that he might have been in far worse shape at the Knebworth than what the dvd and cd would have you believe. He pretty much ruined the first minute or so of In My Room by loudly banging out a fast boogie woogie riff that had absolutely nothing to do with the song. I'm not sure if it's on the officially released version, but on the bootleg audio Brian can also be heard playing Rhapsody in Blue right as the band goes into California Girls.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: KittyKat on February 20, 2013, 12:02:44 AM
If we didn't discuss personal matters that are really only business of family and friends, this board could blow away like a tumbleweed. Crickets would chirp. It's a major issue among Beach Boys fans and always has been. No one would care as much if Brian were "normal." It would be like discussing Syd Barrett and only wanting to discuss the chords to "See Emily Play," lest his family and the remaining members of Pink Floyd get offended.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: dwtherealbb on February 20, 2013, 12:18:09 AM
Indeed, Mike's post is one of the better things I've ever read on this board. Although, I would say that Brian's onstage behavior I think may have been worse than implied. Take this clip from Maryland 1977 for example. Watch what Brian does after Feel Flows. While Carl introduces Dennis(who then introduces the next song), Brian is completely zoned out, singing and playing bass to whatever is playing in his head. It's like he forgot that he and his band are in front of thousands of people, and supposed to be playing a concert. I think that he might have been in far worse shape at the Knebworth than what the dvd and cd would have you believe. He pretty much ruined the first minute or so of In My Room by loudly banging out a fast boogie woogie riff that had absolutely nothing to do with the song. I'm not sure if it's on the officially released version, but on the bootleg audio Brian can also be heard playing Rhapsody in Blue right as the band goes into California Girls.

another clip from that concert is where they take a break between songs and starting at 4:29, Brian starts to do some bizarre warm-up routine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwNfIDtRJs


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Mike's Beard on February 20, 2013, 01:00:06 AM
They sound absolutely terrible here.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Dave in KC on February 20, 2013, 04:37:27 PM
Wow, that's the only year since 1968 I didn't see the group live. Thankfully.

But looking back, I totally understand.

 


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 20, 2013, 09:01:30 PM
Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 
I do try to be sensitive in that I don't make anything public that I think would hurt anyone. I just wanted people to realize that the changes started early and were very slow in manifesting themselves.

You know what would be awesome?? The publication of your book, Mike! Pleeeeeeeeeeeease.

Sorry to take the thread off-topic, but we NEED your book. What's goin' on?
Hey glad to see the continued interest. I mentioned in another thread that I am going to be updating it as it finishes right before the release of TSS box. I need to add 2012 and the Grammy win and then I can work on submitting it. The last 14 months have been taken up with my first solo book to be issued, Elvis Music FAQ


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 20, 2013, 09:02:31 PM
Marilyn once put it to me like this. Brian always had good days and bad days but the bad gradually became more frequent. 
Here are the changes over the years I perceived or have been told about.
1963-He already wants off the road and is putting on weight. Brian said in a 1964 interview that he had a health food diet in high school but found it harder to maintain on the road. His bad eatting habits stuck with him from then on.
1964-We have panic attacks on the Europe tour, and the big breakdown at the end of the year.
1965-Brian was still pretty active, and would still make the effort to go on TV or hometown gigs. It was reported later that he had a few panic attacks, but not quite breakdowns.
1966-The Pet Sounds sessions seem very tight, but by the end of the year he seems to not be as certain. He was becoming a perfectionist to the point where he would tinker too much on things. Not going on the road much at all, but still concerned enough with the live act to rehearse them hard on Good Vibrations
1967-This wasn't the big meltdown it has been made out to be. Yes his actions were odd at times, yes he seems to have lost some of his drive but he seems to have made a conscious decision to not be as competitive. He also seems to have rediscovered the joy of working with the guys. Consider this, in the 12 months after Smile (June 1967-68)  he headed three unconventional but great albums., He also played Hawaii, worked at saving it for a faux-live  studio project, and recorded roughly another LP worth of outtakes.
1968-The year began well, but by the middle of the year he seemed to be burning out for real. He went to an institution briefly, and some feel he was different when he came out. Others told me they didn't see a real difference yet. He did seem to be excited about being a dad initially, but Marilyn told Stephen Gaines that it was after they had the children that she began to get concerned. One thing should be made clear, he may not have been taking the helm like before, but he was still active in the studio the last six months of 1968 with and without The Beach Boys. He also was still making public appearances if not doing any shows. Yellow Submarine premiere, a concert where he signed autographs with the others in the entrances etc. First time he missed sessions though.
1969-Brian seems to have bounced back to a certain point. He was working a lot during this time and his focus was on the group again. He was concerned about their record sales and with Break Away tried to make a difference. A real damaging thing happened at the end of the year when Murry sold Sea Of Tunes. I feel it made him lose a little confidence, but not completely yet. He seemed to enjoy owning the Radiant Radish the first year or so.
1970-While Brian sometimes seemed unsure of himself, and was prone to panic attacks once in a while, this was one of his most active years. He lost weight, played some shows, and actually seemed to want to participate when he did. Then again he did seem torn about signing the Warner's contract and acted somewhat passive aggressive about it.
1971-Brian said this was the point he felt the Beach Boys could really record extensively without him. Through the Surf's Up sessions he was there most of the time, but he wasn't writing as much. I feel the use of Surf's Up ended his desire to be a Beach Boy for a long time. He still worked with the group but again started missing a lot of sessions. Spring seemed to perk him up briefly, but even his work there was in fits and starts.
1972-Carl once said it was here he saw Brian being self destructive with drug's cocaine. Others have told me he changed when he came back from Holland. Less willing to go out, putting on a little weight. In 1976 he said his second major breakdown happened then. In Holland I think was when Brian really started showing signs of decline.
1973 His Iowa session seemed to find him in a good frame of mind. David Sandler has told me that Brian was a pretty normal guy around him when they knew each other well from 1970-73. He did note that he wasn't into drugs so Brian didn't do them around him. Early in the year he was still well groomed, and willing to even sing a little at a local Beach Boys show. When Murry died the bottom fell out. I think this was a huge moment for him sinking further into addiction and depression. Up till then he could still appear conduct himself with some poise, not so after.
1974-He was gaining massive weight, being thrown out of clubs, stopped cutting his hair, didn't seem to shave. While word got out that Brian was eccentric as early as 1966, this was when mental illness and drug abuse really started getting talked about. He had really changed
1975-He just got worse, blanking out on old friends etc. Now he didn't even look washed, and he set about to destroy his voice on purpose.
1976-Landy seemed to help the first time, but the nervous tremors started hands shaking, leg jiggling. His issues were made fully public that year (Nick Kent's 1975 article had done the same thing but not in a media blitz) and he became an erratic performer in the studio and on stage. He still seemed aware of everything around him though, and could converse with some ease in the right mood.
1977-He seemed in good shape as a whole, but drifted slowly back into self destruction. Also the odd public behavior hadn't stopped.
1978-Now he was worse than ever as far as drugs, or depression. A lot of time was spent in the hospital, plus his presence at Beach Boys sessions crawled to a halt as LA Light began to take shape.
1979-A brief weight loss helped, but by the end of the year he was heavy again. He also seemed a but flustered at times, zoned out in interviews during the LA Light promotion. Funny enough as he began to gain weight, he briefly rallied. No incidents seemed to happen on the road, he was touring regularly, and participating in KTSA sessions. Stephen Desper was working with the group again for about a year on and off, and he noticed Brian was less confident, less of a leader than he had been from 1967-72 (Stephen left in late 1971 but helped finish the Spring album in 1972).
1980-Brian still seems on for the most part. He continued to gain weight, but he did some very lucid interviews around this time. On stage he wasn't doing much at the shows, but there was still hope he was getting better.
1981-All of a sudden Brian takes a sharp decline. Heavier than ever, his stage singing was awful. The drugs went into very high gear again, plus he seemed to stop combing his hair, wearing clean clothes etc.
1982 Well it was an all time low. He was huge, putting himself in bad situations and acting very strange on stage.
1983-92. Robot Landy Brian. Never seemed quite as aware as before. Looked good, occasionally came up with a good song, but his work declined quite a bit with Eugene in general. Most of their work (discounting a good deal of Brian Wilson the LP) was in fact terrible. Didn't make his own decisions, was no longer as lucid. Seemed damaged, not always aware.
1993-now. He's had ups and downs, but his life no longer seemed in danger. Obviously he has done some great work in the last ten years, he hadn't acted so much a vital part of the group since the early seventies during the reunion. IJWMFTT found him a little more talkative than later, but by the time he hit his late fifties you could tell that some part of him was lost forever in the cocktails Landy gave him. Part of that is age, but he never totally lost the slur in his voice. He often is stiff in public.  It's not all sad though, he still can be pretty bright, and "with it" when he is in a quiet situation. Certainly he proved he can still write, sing, and perform when he is feeling good.





This is a fantastic post.

Thank you!
I'm glad you liked it.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 20, 2013, 09:05:25 PM
Indeed, Mike's post is one of the better things I've ever read on this board. Although, I would say that Brian's onstage behavior I think may have been worse than implied. Take this clip from Maryland 1977 for example. Watch what Brian does after Feel Flows. While Carl introduces Dennis(who then introduces the next song), Brian is completely zoned out, singing and playing bass to whatever is playing in his head. It's like he forgot that he and his band are in front of thousands of people, and supposed to be playing a concert. I think that he might have been in far worse shape at the Knebworth than what the dvd and cd would have you believe. He pretty much ruined the first minute or so of In My Room by loudly banging out a fast boogie woogie riff that had absolutely nothing to do with the song. I'm not sure if it's on the officially released version, but on the bootleg audio Brian can also be heard playing Rhapsody in Blue right as the band goes into California Girls.
Thanks Jay. I think he was very erratic on stage from 1976-98. I didn't mean to underplay it. I would still say 1976 finds him more aware of what's going on than 1977. Landy drugs already had changed him a little.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on February 20, 2013, 09:46:28 PM
As I was listening to those 1980 KTSA radio interviews in the other thread, I was impressed at how well Brian sounded. He appeared very lucid. Yeah, he was starting to gain weight in 1980 and probably using at that time also. But it also sheds more light on how much Landy destroyed Brian from 1983 - 1992.

I remember reading a post a few years ago from somebody who appeared to be a very knowledgeable person, at least in the field of medications. Actually, I think the post(er)  and thread was on this board. Anyway, this person stated emphatically that the medications that Landy (illegally) prescribed, while powerful, could not inflict permanent damage. This poster felt it was other "problems".

Now, I want to make this clear. I don't agree with that position, but I wouldn't mind exploring it. Does anybody know specifically what drugs Landy was pumping into Brian the second time around? And, is there anybody who might agree with the poster I was talking about, meaning that the drugs couldn't cause permanent brain damage?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: Myk Luhv on February 20, 2013, 10:18:10 PM
I suspect just knowing what drugs Landy was giving him would not be enough to answer such a question? You'd likely also need to know at what dosage amount and with what frequency of use as well, which seem even less likely to be known to fans than the drug names themselves.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 20, 2013, 11:14:01 PM
I don't know what other stuff Landy gave Brian but in addition to smoking weed, Brian was abusing Xanax at the time.  There is a video for Let's Go to Heaven in my car where he asks him for 'a dime and some Xanax...a couple of bars.'

Edit

It is. Look for part two. I cannot copy and paste the link from my cell phone but it is there. Actually he asks for half a xanax and a quarter. He is asked 'anything else' and I can't make out his response. All I can make out is 'and a '  then it cuts to something else.


Title: Re: Drug Transaction
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 21, 2013, 01:12:36 PM
Here it is. From about 0:20 through 1:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAeXSYOrXhE

Anybody know what a 'heel' is? I'm not familiar with that term.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Iron Horse-Apples on February 21, 2013, 03:05:37 PM
I'm interested in the Landy / weed thing. Didn't know this. So Brian still smoked through the Landy years eh?

For such an addictive personality as his, I wonder if he still dabbles in stuff


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 21, 2013, 03:20:55 PM
Yeah, he sure did. I'm still trying to figure out what a 'heel' is (what Brian asked for twice). Never heard that term before, so I'm assuming it's a kind of pharm.

I doubt he does anything now aside from drinking the occasional beer.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: halblaineisgood on February 21, 2013, 03:59:15 PM
.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 21, 2013, 04:04:28 PM
His Landy-related problems are not so much mental as they are neurological.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on February 21, 2013, 04:51:07 PM
Heel sounds like half of a xanax bar, or possibly some sort of smoking device. Either way, benzos and weed do not make a great combo. No wonder Brian seemed so "off" back then. I don't think people go off and stay off, though. He's on now, as on as an old  man can be. I don't really get on board with this "Permanent Landy Damage" stuff.

I respect your opinion and applaud you for stating it. Would you care to elaborate? It's almost unanimous that Landy PERMANENTLY damaged Brian. I'm just trying to find out - for my own knowledge, not to start anything - just what Landy gave Brian that permanently damaged him. Can you shed any light?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: Cam Mott on February 21, 2013, 04:57:12 PM
His Landy-related problems are not so much mental as they are neurological.

That sounds right to me but what do I know.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Dunderhead on February 23, 2013, 03:38:42 AM
Here's something I posted in another thread, I feel like Brian's issues are really avoidance/anxiety issues more than anything else.

Quote from: Brian Wilson
I'm never, ever still. Always in turmoil, you know? Hoping that somebody will save me, or that someone will come along and save my life, or save my day. That the world won't blow up, the universe won't explode. We'll never have each other again you know.

I think that quote basically lays Brian's entire psychology bare. We've muddied the waters when it comes to discussing the nature of his illness, and 'break downs' and 'freak outs' and the like are thrown out a little carelessly in my opinion.

The way I see it, Brian simply has a problem with agency. He doesn't like confrontation, he doesn't feel comfortable standing up for himself or telling others explicitly how he feels about something. He's always waiting for some twist of fate, or coincidence, or change of fortune, or divine intervention to sweep his problems away for him, which is why he's such a fatalist and believes in astrology and other "systems" of life.

Brian at times just seems to get into a groove that he isn't strong enough to break out of, he'll go along with a plan, say yes the whole time through hoping that he'll just be able to take the next exit off the freeway when it comes up, but he just doesn't have the nerve for that. The pressure builds and builds and in his mind things become more and more desperate until he, psychologically, only has one way out, to have an anxiety or panic attack. That's really his only release valve.

So I don't believe that Brian is having this panic attacks exactly for the reasons we tend to say that he does. I don't see it as being something that's so delusional and truly "insane" in a classical sense, but rather something that comes about more from his inability or unwillingness to cope with everyday stress.  


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: halblaineisgood on February 23, 2013, 05:44:01 AM
.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: halblaineisgood on February 23, 2013, 05:44:56 AM
.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Heteronym on February 23, 2013, 07:15:00 AM
I've recently watched a video on youtube of Brian talking to some journalist or whoever backstage. The camera appeared to be hidden or something of the kind, so him and guy are seen from distance and the image is kinda blur. Anyway, Brian seemed MUCH more normal than I've seen in other interviews. Even his voice was okay and he was acting very comfortably. Shame I don't remember the name of the video, but that got me thinking that we can't really judge his current state from what we've seen of him in interviews or even shows. To me, aside from the neurological damage which I know nothing of, he's bored. He looks like someone who has a lot of thoughts in his head so every social obligation is annoying because it distracts him from his own personal world. It's like when you have a strong thought in your head, you're really working on it and have to make small talk with someone in the elevator. Being interviewed for 50 years must be incredibly boring. Rhapsody in Blue, Be My Baby, how my brothers and I would sing on our room, how I got the California Girl's bass line from Bach, etc, etc. Plus, there's also the fact that he does not like to perform. I think he just doesn't bother about fulfilling social protocols. For some people it's just harder than normal.

By the way, when the slurriness on his voice first appeared?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Cam Mott on February 23, 2013, 07:18:33 AM
I think you're right that we've got it wrong but I don't see Brian in actual fact having any problem with standing up for himself or in opposition to others. He did not "confront" in the classic sense he just had so much self confidence that he would just politely dismiss that which he did not want or agree with. He would just tell musicians, Boys, suits, Murry, to their face "naw we aren't goin do that" in a way that just was not offensive but was definitive. He would listen to opinions/suggestions and might even give them a try and if he didn't like or want to go with it he would just say so.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Dunderhead on February 23, 2013, 08:27:54 AM
But then again 'definitive' was often anything but wasn't it? From what I've read it doesn't sound like Brian wanted to go to Holland for example, but he still went eventually. I think, when it came to artistic decisions he definitely had more confidence than in other parts of his life, and was able to speak his mind the majority of the time, but when it came to other, more far-reaching decisions, decisions of a personal or professional nature, about the long-term future of the group, he tended to avoid being explicit.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Cam Mott on February 23, 2013, 10:14:59 AM
It could be, I'll have to bone up on Holland. I assumed it is was case of Brian wanting to and then not wanting to. Still if that is the only example, it would sort of prove the rule maybe: Brian didn't really do that which he didn't want to do.

I still tend toward a sort of a fan over-diagnosis which sort of excuses Brian from responsibility of actions and decisions he did/made which we fans don't wish him to be truly responsible for.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: halblaineisgood on February 26, 2013, 03:05:02 AM
.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Paul J B on February 26, 2013, 06:43:47 AM
I've recently watched a video on youtube of Brian talking to some journalist or whoever backstage. The camera appeared to be hidden or something of the kind, so him and guy are seen from distance and the image is kinda blur. Anyway, Brian seemed MUCH more normal than I've seen in other interviews. Even his voice was okay and he was acting very comfortably. Shame I don't remember the name of the video, but that got me thinking that we can't really judge his current state from what we've seen of him in interviews or even shows. To me, aside from the neurological damage which I know nothing of, he's bored. He looks like someone who has a lot of thoughts in his head so every social obligation is annoying because it distracts him from his own personal world. It's like when you have a strong thought in your head, you're really working on it and have to make small talk with someone in the elevator. Being interviewed for 50 years must be incredibly boring. Rhapsody in Blue, Be My Baby, how my brothers and I would sing on our room, how I got the California Girl's bass line from Bach, etc, etc. Plus, there's also the fact that he does not like to perform. I think he just doesn't bother about fulfilling social protocols. For some people it's just harder than normal.

That is a great post. There is no doubt Brian does not like the camera in his face and being questioned by some dimwit reporter or such. My only question is why he/the management seems to put himself in that position over and over. I know he needs to market himself and the Beach Boys but there should be STRICT guidelines as to who has access to him and when.

Board indeed............unless Brian goes to David Leaf or someone else that has regular access to him and says "I've got an interesting story or two that most people have never heard about"....or...."here are the Smile tapes I said I burned, you can play them if you want" or something like that then people should leave him alone and stop asking the same stupid questions over and over and over.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Heteronym on February 26, 2013, 06:47:56 PM
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/2700cc9c7c94b8be852563b7006b5bff/9b59a01f892cb86a8525792d00713c7c/$FILE/A&O%20-%20Dysfunction%20&%20creativity%20-%20Brian%20Wilson%20in%20sci-amer-mind1205-36.pdf

Did you guys check this? That quote from 1976 (15 Big Ones, most likely) is new to me. It actually explains a lot WHY Brian didn't sit down and record an album in the early 70's, considering that the little output of his musical material was still brilliant. Plus, we can also understand why Brian was apparently easy to exploit.

EDIT: Paul J B, just now I saw your post. Thank you! And as for your question, I've read somewhere Brian saying to one interviewer that it's a "good thing" for him, since it makes him interact or something of the kind. But, again, there are different kinds of interviews...when the interviewers is up to the job, Brian can talk a little bit more, but you can tell he's nervous. I myself rush the words and talk a little funny when in situations like that.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: rab2591 on February 26, 2013, 07:00:00 PM
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/2700cc9c7c94b8be852563b7006b5bff/9b59a01f892cb86a8525792d00713c7c/$FILE/A&O%20-%20Dysfunction%20&%20creativity%20-%20Brian%20Wilson%20in%20sci-amer-mind1205-36.pdf

Did you guys check this? That quote from 1976 (15 Big Ones, most likely) is new to me. It actually explains a lot WHY Brian didn't sit down and record an album in the early 70's, considering that the little output of his musical material was still brilliant. Plus, we can also understand why Brian was apparently easy to exploit.

Makes sense.

Also, not to stray too far from the topic, but is Brian's placing a sandbox in his house really considered a plausible warning sign for mental sickness? Firstly, it's the coolest idea ever. Secondly, the man was a millionaire and could do it...why not? I don't at all see the connection between a millionaire's indoor sandbox and his mental health issues (spelled out it sounds ridiculous though haha).


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 26, 2013, 07:01:56 PM
That was a fascinating article...thank you for sharing it!


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: kookadams on February 26, 2013, 08:15:22 PM
Rockandroll - I disagree with your position, but respect your right to have it.  America was built on activism.  And, a three pronged system of checks and balances for a reason.  

Transparency is lacking as a result of influence peddling.  I won't apologize for my position, because it is a result of reading many legal cases, many of which, had what I consider to be an unfair and harsh result.  I am glad you concede that the business aspect of medicine could be problematic.  What ever happened to "first, do no harm?"

Just as an example, to analogize, we have a huge drug epidemic in this country. And when OxyContin was manufactured, the company knew the potential for abuse.  They knew (because they are supposed to test for misuse,) that it would produce a heroin high if chewed or snorted and was very dangerous if it fell into the wrong hands.  And it did.

The state of Kentucky was one of the first to sue, and recover monies for drug treatment for the victims.  That was the tip of the iceberg.  And the misrepresentations were huge. The president and chief medical officer pled guilty to charges of fraudulent marketing and making claims not supported by research.

If this industry behaves this way towards pain killers, do they behave differently with vaccine promotion?  I think not.  I've gone to too many funerals of former students who overdosed and started off with a very innocent looking pill.  If you hurt someone; you should pay.  And always good to know who funded a scientist's research.  Not to know is just looking through "rose colored glasses."

Parents whose precious kids got sick after a shot, deserve answers, and should have them.  JMHO

They don't get a pass from me.  

www.erinmariedaly/com/clips/ky_attorney_general_oxycontin.pdf

(For educational purposes)

Are all vaccines bad? Absolutely not.  Can they be made safer? Probably. Is there a moderate position? Parents in my era rarely heard of autism connected to vaccines, and we did not challenge a vaccine schedule. This is something that happened more frequently since that time and required some attention.  Do we need to artificially eliminate everything including colds, with vaccines?  

Does this industry need oversight when some of those in charge have been found guilty of falsehood?  You decide.

Mods - please move this thread.

Brian's health status concerns his doctors, his family and is none of our business.  JMHO
  


The drug epidemic is due to a combination of TWO things- 1 the "war on drugs" and how bad the government has gotten with it. 2 The constantly growing decline of pretty much EVERYTHING in society in the past few decades.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: adamghost on February 26, 2013, 11:53:30 PM
Can we please stay on topic? Mike posted a lengthy response that was all but ignored except by a few.

OK.....Mike, thanks for taking the time to do that post; that was a lot of typing! And, I agree with over 90% of it. I only take exception with two points.

First, yes, I believe that at times Brian was self-conscious about his high voice, or as he termed it "feminine" vocals. And, yes, I believe that he wanted a more masculine voice as he got older. And, yes, I agree that he sometimes intentionally sang more gruff and masculine. But, I will never concede that he intentionally tried to ruin his voice or get it to sound rougher or masculine by INTENTIONALLY ALTERING IT PHYSICALLY. He chained smoked because of his addictive personality and his addiction to nicotine. His vocal chords were irreparably damaged by excessive cocaine use. Essentially his vocal chords were scorched. I don't believe Brian knew the extent to which he was ruining his voice; it happened in a relatively short period of time.

Second, I do not believe that Brian's vocals in 1981 were THAT bad. I saw the Beach Boys a couple of times without Carl and Brian was given a few extra leads which he handled fine. Not great, but fine. I saw him nail the lead to "Don't Worry Baby" I think in Hershey, PA. I know I'm in the minority but I enjoyed parts - parts - of his vocals on that July 5, 1981 TV broadcast. Brian was wavering between trying to sing high or low. Yes, he struggled with his falsetto, but when he sang in a lower register it was strong. I mean, he was actually holding notes and appeared to be really "singing". It turned out to be a slight precursor to his solo career. When Brian emerged with Landy in 1983, almost all of Brian's vocals were deep, strong, and almost shouty. While I preferred the deep 1981 vocals, I never cared for his post-1982 vocals - at all.

His "God Only Knows" at the Long Beach concert was very good.  Nobody remembers because "Don't Worry Baby" was next on the setlist...


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on February 27, 2013, 01:02:22 AM
Notice how he was less gruff in 1981 than in 1976?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on February 27, 2013, 03:29:53 AM
Brian has been quoted as saying that he felt his abilities to make music easily changed in 1971. Saying that was the year it started to slip for him, he said after that point he didn't have a hold on what happened. I think the Sounds 1976 interview explans a lot of what happened after 1970, Brian is very "on" and seems to have a good grasp of his career in that article.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Micha on March 05, 2013, 12:16:09 AM
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/2700cc9c7c94b8be852563b7006b5bff/9b59a01f892cb86a8525792d00713c7c/$FILE/A&O%20-%20Dysfunction%20&%20creativity%20-%20Brian%20Wilson%20in%20sci-amer-mind1205-36.pdf

Did you guys check this? That quote from 1976 (15 Big Ones, most likely) is new to me.

Which one are you talking of?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: TerryWogan on March 05, 2013, 03:36:53 AM
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/2700cc9c7c94b8be852563b7006b5bff/9b59a01f892cb86a8525792d00713c7c/$FILE/A&O%20-%20Dysfunction%20&%20creativity%20-%20Brian%20Wilson%20in%20sci-amer-mind1205-36.pdf

Did you guys check this? That quote from 1976 (15 Big Ones, most likely) is new to me.

Which one are you talking of?

This one I think:
"Something happened to my concentration—I don’t know exactly what, but it weakened for some reason—and I lost the ability to concentrate enough to follow through.”


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Amy B. on March 05, 2013, 04:56:34 AM
I've recently watched a video on youtube of Brian talking to some journalist or whoever backstage. The camera appeared to be hidden or something of the kind, so him and guy are seen from distance and the image is kinda blur. Anyway, Brian seemed MUCH more normal than I've seen in other interviews. Even his voice was okay and he was acting very comfortably. Shame I don't remember the name of the video, but that got me thinking that we can't really judge his current state from what we've seen of him in interviews or even shows. To me, aside from the neurological damage which I know nothing of, he's bored. He looks like someone who has a lot of thoughts in his head so every social obligation is annoying because it distracts him from his own personal world. It's like when you have a strong thought in your head, you're really working on it and have to make small talk with someone in the elevator. Being interviewed for 50 years must be incredibly boring. Rhapsody in Blue, Be My Baby, how my brothers and I would sing on our room, how I got the California Girl's bass line from Bach, etc, etc. Plus, there's also the fact that he does not like to perform. I think he just doesn't bother about fulfilling social protocols. For some people it's just harder than normal.

By the way, when the slurriness on his voice first appeared?

I wouldn't say that just because he's being more normal when he thinks he's off camera it means he doesn't have the enormous issues when he knows he's on camera. Maybe not neurological, but psychological. Maybe the camera gives him anxiety that triggers some of those symptoms we see. Anxiety can have an enormous physical impact on a person.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: Sound of Free on March 05, 2013, 03:45:31 PM
Mikie's post was great and I think he and other people are right when they mention how Murry's death threw Brian and Dennis for a loop. The fact that they didn't go to the funeral speaks volumes.

If I could change anything about the Beach Boys history, it would be these two things.

1. Brian and Dennis begin therapy in 1973, speaking honestly about Murry with a therapist who can get past their father issues. Dennis supposedly was talking a lot about Murry in his final, awful months, and Brian mentioned Murry's death at the press conference they had after Dennis died. Neither one ever got over the damage Murry did to them.

2. Sometime around 1990 or so, Carl's doctor tells him that since he smoked so much, he should get a chest x-ray or MRI once a year to make sure if anything develops they can catch it early.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Heteronym on March 05, 2013, 03:58:25 PM
I've recently watched a video on youtube of Brian talking to some journalist or whoever backstage. The camera appeared to be hidden or something of the kind, so him and guy are seen from distance and the image is kinda blur. Anyway, Brian seemed MUCH more normal than I've seen in other interviews. Even his voice was okay and he was acting very comfortably. Shame I don't remember the name of the video, but that got me thinking that we can't really judge his current state from what we've seen of him in interviews or even shows. To me, aside from the neurological damage which I know nothing of, he's bored. He looks like someone who has a lot of thoughts in his head so every social obligation is annoying because it distracts him from his own personal world. It's like when you have a strong thought in your head, you're really working on it and have to make small talk with someone in the elevator. Being interviewed for 50 years must be incredibly boring. Rhapsody in Blue, Be My Baby, how my brothers and I would sing on our room, how I got the California Girl's bass line from Bach, etc, etc. Plus, there's also the fact that he does not like to perform. I think he just doesn't bother about fulfilling social protocols. For some people it's just harder than normal.

By the way, when the slurriness on his voice first appeared?

I wouldn't say that just because he's being more normal when he thinks he's off camera it means he doesn't have the enormous issues when he knows he's on camera. Maybe not neurological, but psychological. Maybe the camera gives him anxiety that triggers some of those symptoms we see. Anxiety can have an enormous physical impact on a person.

Sure, he DOES have issues, wether they are neurological or pshychological. I just don't know how to describe them and we've read a lot of people doing so with amazing knowledge of the matter, so I wouldn't add anything to that. I was just saying that it's hard to judge just by "the looks of it", especially because Brian has on and off days, even in concerts. I mean, he could maybe look better and still be going through a emotional hell, so...

By the way, in a 1998 interview he reveals, almost by accident, that he's not happy. He then tries to rephrase that and everything, but it seemed honest.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on March 05, 2013, 05:09:16 PM
I would have sent Carl with them considering the late seventies.  I also would have had Brian and Mike sue Murry in 1970.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: KittyKat on March 05, 2013, 09:37:34 PM
Therapy doesn't always help, or at least not at a particular point in life if a person isn't ready for it. Brian certainly had a lot of therapy over the years, including the late '60s. People have to help themselves, when they're ready to make that change, and even the best therapist can only facilitate it.

I don't think demonizing Murry is the answer. If anything, the sons seemed to get some healing in Murry mellowing a bit in his later years and getting to spend more time with him and seeing him as vulnerable and human.  They were sad because they missed him, not because they hated him. The older you get, the more you realize your parents aren't gods/goddesses and their flaws and failings are often because they just didn't know any better or learn any better from their own parents or the society that they grew up in. I'm sure the Wilson brothers knew how badly Murry was treated by his dad, and Buddy Wilson was no doubt abused by his own father. I think Brian eventually forgave Murry, and that may have been partly through what he learned from some therapist or other (not Landy, who blamed Murry for everything). But it was at the point that Brian was ready for it. He may not have been prior that.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Peter Reum on March 07, 2013, 07:44:06 PM
The history of violence in the Wilson family is well documented in The Nearest Faraway Place. The estimate nationally is that approximately 75% of domestic violence occurs during use of mood altering chemicals. It is also well documented that numbing unresolved anger is a major trigger for chemical abuse. Children who are beaten emotionally or physically by their chemically dependent parents are prone to repeat this behavior when they become adults. Children who are abused emotionally by chemically dependent parents historically are more highly prone  to evince such mental health conditions as social anxiety, agoraphobia, depression, narcissism, oppositional defiance, and failure to bond successfully. Different conditions manifest in each family constellation. Add to this the already discovered genetic proneness to chemical dependence in families with a history of it in their ancestry, and there is no mystery regarding any family's behavior. To Brian's credit, while he was absent from his first family's lives often, he did not hit his children.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: dwtherealbb on March 07, 2013, 09:04:03 PM
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and say: if the BB's had never took off as a group, would the Wilson bros have done better? I actually asked a similar question on one of the earlier threads. In particular, it might have helped Dennis since he wouldn't have all that money to piss away.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: kookadams on March 07, 2013, 09:06:39 PM
The history of violence in the Wilson family is well documented in The Nearest Faraway Place. The estimate nationally is that approximately 75% of domestic violence occurs during use of mood altering chemicals. It is also well documented that numbing unresolved anger is a major trigger for chemical abuse. Children who are beaten emotionally or physically by their chemically dependent parents are prone to repeat this behavior when they become adults. Children who are abused emotionally by chemically dependent parents historically are more highly prone  to evince such mental health conditions as social anxiety, agoraphobia, depression, narcissism, oppositional defiance, and failure to bond successfully. Different conditions manifest in each family constellation. Add to this the already discovered genetic proneness to chemical dependence in families with a history of it in their ancestry, and there is no mystery regarding any family's behavior. To Brian's credit, while he was absent from his first family's lives often, he did not hit his children.
The Nearest Faraway Pl, Heroes & Villains and In their Own Words are real good BBs books that go in depth.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Dave in KC on March 08, 2013, 04:40:10 PM
The history of violence in the Wilson family is well documented in The Nearest Faraway Place. The estimate nationally is that approximately 75% of domestic violence occurs during use of mood altering chemicals. It is also well documented that numbing unresolved anger is a major trigger for chemical abuse. Children who are beaten emotionally or physically by their chemically dependent parents are prone to repeat this behavior when they become adults. Children who are abused emotionally by chemically dependent parents historically are more highly prone  to evince such mental health conditions as social anxiety, agoraphobia, depression, narcissism, oppositional defiance, and failure to bond successfully. Different conditions manifest in each family constellation. Add to this the already discovered genetic proneness to chemical dependence in families with a history of it in their ancestry, and there is no mystery regarding any family's behavior. To Brian's credit, while he was absent from his first family's lives often, he did not hit his children.
Peter, I respect your knowledge and have learned things from you over the years. But do you think Brian would have ever struck his daughters?



Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: Peter Reum on March 10, 2013, 01:47:52 PM
What I think is that I have worked with hundreds of men, who when sober, would not DREAM of striking their children or wives. Bu when they were mood altered, struck their children and their wives. Their anguish and guilt over that was a factor in their continuing that behavior, despite their terrible feelings when they cleaned up. The fact that Brian did not, even when mood altered, is quite significant.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on March 10, 2013, 11:49:53 PM
Brian isn't a violent guy, I think he spanked Carnie once and felt really bad about it. In fact I think that's why he shaved his head in 1977.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on March 10, 2013, 11:56:14 PM
That was on the TSS box!


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem
Post by: kookadams on March 11, 2013, 01:06:01 AM
Brian isn't a violent guy, I think he spanked Carnie once and felt really bad about it. In fact I think that's why he shaved his head in 1977.
did he really shave his head or jus cut his hair real short? cuz from the pics Ive seen in 77 of his short hair it didnt looked shaved all the way down/


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: phirnis on March 11, 2013, 01:55:30 AM
(http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Galleries/Famous%20Recluses/recluses-brian-wilson-sized.jpg)

This?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: kookadams on March 11, 2013, 10:04:16 AM
Thats in '77 right?


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: KittyKat on March 11, 2013, 11:29:30 AM
Random fact: hair grows at the rate of half an inch a month. He could have shaved it just a month or two before that pic was taken and had that much hair.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: phirnis on March 12, 2013, 12:29:51 AM
Always thought he was just ahead of his time, cutting off the long hair a couple of years before everybody else did.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on March 12, 2013, 03:21:27 AM
I've seen ones maybe a month before that of him and Marilyn and he's almost totally shaven. Goes with a story Carnie tells and fits the time frame.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: meltedwhiskeyinmyhand on March 12, 2013, 08:43:00 AM
Has anyone had personal experience with someone going off the deep end from using psychedelics?  I've known some serious acid heads in  my day but I dont think I've ever seen anyone go so far that they have trouble getting back. Just curious.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: phirnis on March 12, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
I've seen ones maybe a month before that of him and Marilyn and he's almost totally shaven. Goes with a story Carnie tells and fits the time frame.

Here's a somewhat different story by Ed Roach: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=6052.125 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=6052.125)

Not that it really matters, just a bit of trivia that for whatever reason I could remember upon reading this thread...


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: halblaineisgood on April 09, 2013, 09:21:09 PM
.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on April 09, 2013, 10:48:53 PM
brian's voice
I couldn't remember where the hotspot was for Brian Wrecked His Voice On Purpose discussion. I searched Eder Voice Destroy and this thread came up. I was looking to maybe talk with Mike Eder obviously, Mike you around? Let me lay this on you, it just occurred to me while I was driving home today. It's a new theory. At least it's new to me.  Maybe(probably) I am repeating stuff, but here goes....

Brian was tired of singing in the falsetto voice, he wanted to try something new. Nothing tragic or unhealthy about that. He already made his reputation and fortune doing that type of style for 10 years, I sense a healthy curiosity in that desire, and nothing more. What if his desire to "try something new" was honestly the artistic choice he wished to make. This was his own private free will, it was his desire long before it became his wife's favorite excuse. Before it became the easiest way to get the wife out his space, so that he could get high for some reason. dramatic reenactment: " I'm not ruining my voice Mare, I'm trying something new remember?" then  she'd leave him alone. It wasn't a lie, it was just kind of... deception. or misdirection.  "But, Dear I WANt to try something new "   she thought "oh my he sounds even worse than the last time he said that"    and then worse and worse until he's nearly at the breaking point of no return still explaining to her " I WANT TO TRY SOMETHING NEW"....Marilyn apparently takes him at his word to the bitter end, and is either a very loving partner or not very smart or she was co-dependent or something .His desire predated his vocal decline. It was just a coincidence that he one day no longer was able to sing in the old style and that he literally HAD to "try something new".   I don't think I am saying anything new, or anything at all here...but perhaps ...
Well I am not sure because I felt I should tread lightly when asking him about it. Meaning I didn't attach anything negative to the question. I sensed he knew I was asking "what happened" so to speak and was happy he would talk about it a little. I didn't press him because I didn't want to make him feel I was judging him on his decision. My feeling is that he told me the truth without going into the self destructive way it came about. The tone of the interview didn't really encompass emotional issues because I felt he would be bored talking about it. We just really stuck to obscure music things I hadn't seen him asked about in detail.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: halblaineisgood on April 09, 2013, 10:59:49 PM
.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: halblaineisgood on April 09, 2013, 11:08:57 PM
.


Title: Re: at what point did Brian start to seem \
Post by: MBE on April 09, 2013, 11:27:46 PM
I guess because it didn't get recorded as much as his voice since that time, I treasure that clear voice of Brian's. I do like some of his vocals from the 1975-62 era a lot, but usually not the ones that came out at that time. Dennis I like the early voice best too, though I think he was able to use his rasp more effectively.