Things that I just don't get about my favorite band (and that piss me off!)

[gfac22]

And by the way, how this crazy bunch could still play 'Fun,Fun,Fun' during those days? Were their BBs greatest hits part of the setlists they played with the Grateful Dead? I mean...come on....

Well, when they played with the Dead at the Fillmore they did Good Vibrations and I Get Around and then performed Help Me, Rhonda with the Dead.  So the hits were still being played, but to look at setlists from that period, not nearly as many as before or later in the 70s (and forever more...)

[Micha]

Somebody hand Mike a baseball cap, please!!!

[schiaffino]

And by the way, how this crazy bunch could still play 'Fun,Fun,Fun' during those days? Were their BBs greatest hits part of the setlists they played with the Grateful Dead? I mean...come on....

Well, when they played with the Dead at the Fillmore they did Good Vibrations and I Get Around and then performed Help Me, Rhonda with the Dead.  So the hits were still being played, but to look at setlists from that period, not nearly as many as before or later in the 70s (and forever more...)

Thanks for the clarification! From the stuff they could have played from their back catalog, those songs are actually a cool choice...fitting nicely with the 'Surf's Up' mood IMO

[schiaffino]

Ok, here's come one big, big question that I've always had and that makes me really, really angry...

...how come it took sooooo long for Carl, Marilyn (or whomever) to press charges against Landy's 'management' of Brian? I know the trigger was the change in Brian's will back in the late 80s or early 90s, but come on, there was more evidence of negligence, illegal appropriation of work/financial resources, criticism of the given medical treatment, etc.

Was it because Carl was battling his own demons that it took so long for him to protect Brian? Was it because of the divorce and the long separation that Marilyn did not act? What about the rest of Brian's family (his Mother, his cousin - some Mike Love guy I believe)? No one cared?

Do you imagine how much more functional Brian would be today if he had been rescued earlier from that madman? If I see a picture of my brother/friend in a situation like this, damn it, I would react and get angryyyyy!!!



I know this post will stir 'heated' arguments, I would like it to be handled as respectfully as possible (in consideration to Brian!)

[Jukka]

You're right, but keep in mind that these things are never easy. And for a while, I guess they were just happy to see Brian not trying to kill himself with drugs and alcohol. It took some time to see the ugly truth after the initial delight. And I'm sure Landy did his best to keep Brian's family from intervening. And Brian was a grown man, and if he didn't want out, it was hard to do anything about it. Luckily they finally did do something.

I mean, there are people joining creepy cults and abandoning their families every day. I'm sure their relatives aren't too happy about it, but whatcha gonna do?

[Sheriff John Stone]

...how come it took sooooo long for Carl, Marilyn (or whomever) to press charges against Landy's 'management' of Brian?

Because Brian lost 130 lbs, was jogging 5 miles a day, was not abusing illegal drugs, released a critically acclaimed solo album (which many people on this board really like), was still occasionally working with The Beach Boys, appeared - appeared - to finally be living an adult, prosperous life, and, Brian's family didn't welcome the alternative which was having a conservator put in place, which is basically having Brian determined to be incompetent.

It took $$$$$$$$$$, changing the will and taking money away from family members to start legal proceedings.

Don't misunderstand my post. Landy caused irreversible damage to Brian which is a tragedy, a real tragedy.

[hypehat]

I think Landy's secrecy around Brian 'helped' a lot - remember, Carl, Audree, Marilyn, Wendy and Carnie couldn't talk to Brian of their own accord during that period. Carl & Brian wouldn't have seen each other outside of a recording studio or a concert stage during choice moments in the second Landy era.

[schiaffino]

I think Landy's secrecy around Brian 'helped' a lot - remember, Carl, Audree, Marilyn, Wendy and Carnie couldn't talk to Brian of their own accord during that period. Carl & Brian wouldn't have seen each other outside of a recording studio or a concert stage during choice moments in the second Landy era.

Yes, I agree with you. But its actually the family's inability to react to this secrecy that upsets me. But again, the Wilsons were a specially family and their relationships were equally non-standard.

[schiaffino]

...how come it took sooooo long for Carl, Marilyn (or whomever) to press charges against Landy's 'management' of Brian?

Because Brian lost 130 lbs, was jogging 5 miles a day, was not abusing illegal drugs, released a critically acclaimed solo album (which many people on this board really like), was still occasionally working with The Beach Boys, appeared - appeared - to finally be living an adult, prosperous life, and, Brian's family didn't welcome the alternative which was having a conservator put in place, which is basically having Brian determined to be incompetent.

It took $$$$$$$$$$, changing the will and taking money away from family members to start legal proceedings.

Don't misunderstand my post. Landy caused irreversible damage to Brian which is a tragedy, a real tragedy.

Agree Sheriff! It all came down to the dirty money...once everyone saw Brian-generated money re-distributed to a third party, decisions were made.

Very, very sad 

[schiaffino]

Another thing I don't get and that although doesn't make me completely angry, it bugs me a lot...Dennis.

Like many other things with the Beach Boys, I have a love/hate relationship with Dennis & what he represents to the band. One thing I don't quite grasp is how his 'affairs with the wives' situation was handled. I know Mike's brother, Stan, got physical with Dennis over something related to this, but what about the rest of the band? Were they like 'oh, ok, sure, he's the hot guy in the BBs, he can do whatever he wants'?

I mean, for whatever liberal conceptions you may have of marriage/relationships/sex, a situation like this for Al, Carl, Brian gotta definitely suck.

Like I said before, I admire many things from Dennis, but this one particular element in his life...I don't understand. Was he an asshole? Should this affect my understanding of his legacy? Or was this just another of the many different dynamics in that big, weird family called The Beach Boys?

Oh Dennis...!

[Letsgoawayforawhile]

.

[MBE]

That's very exaggerated and I think they never doubted Brian in the sixties too much, it was more Van Dyke's lyrics. Mid seventies on if Brian was doubted that's understandable until Landy was gone.

[schiaffino]

That's very exaggerated and I think they never doubted Brian in the sixties too much, it was more Van Dyke's lyrics. Mid seventies on if Brian was doubted that's understandable until Landy was gone.

Hi Mike, what exactly do you find exaggerated? Sorry, cant find the quote to your comment.

[MBE]

I guess they edited it out. Just a comment that the others didn't support Brian which is by and large not true. No band is going to agree 100 percent on every song, but The Beach Boys did overall go along with his wishes until the use of Surf's Up.

[schiaffino]

I guess they edited it out. Just a comment that the others didn't support Brian which is by and large not true. No band is going to agree 100 percent on every song, but The Beach Boys did overall go along with his wishes until the use of Surf's Up.

In the Brian Wilson Songwriter dvd (first period) there's an interesting comment from Bruce. He says that back in the day (pre-Smile), they didn't question Brian 'cause he was always right. He said it in a very sincere, nostalgic way.

Now after Smile was scrapped in 67, the rest of the bands had something to reference when 'questioning' Brian's decisions. Although to be honest, I think Brian's tight leading of the band was not the same post Smile - meaning, the challenging from the others was not met by fierce opposition from Brian. Just a thought, I sometimes think he just didn't care (that much) anymore.

If you look at the musical choices post Smile, who most likely drove the decisions:

• Smiley Smile: driven mainly by the need to fulfill contractual obligation, market need. Brian took the group into a less complex production, not necessarily out of conviction, but maybe because of need (fast recording sessions, reduce costs from session musicians) and Brian's lost of interest.
• Wild Honey: more 'bluesy'/'funkier' musical direction, opposite to the 'raw' sounds in Smiley. IMO this is the result of a band with no direction, where everyone was pulling different sides.
• Friends: It's a more coherent album in the sense of the waltz-feeling in so many songs. I believe Brian was in better shape then, but completely out of synch with market expectations. And I guess the rest of the band was as lost as Brian, so no case for opposition there.
• 20/20: If Wild Honey was everyone starting to pull in different directions, My God this is one of their most incoherent works ever. You got the nostalgic camp (Do it Again), the folky advocates (Cotton-Fields), the pseudo-rockers (Bluebirds) and the desperate recycling of Smile songs. Do you think Brian led this project? And if so, there was opposition to his musical direction? Wouldn't see how, since there was no musical direction at all.
• Sunflower: a group production, according to many in this board, and (coincidentally) their worst performing album charts-wise. I guess the band saw they needed a leader urgently and Brian was not the man - unfortunately.
• Surf's Up

: So the band got a leader, not one of their own, but someone from the outside - their new manager Jack R. I guess his decisions might have the begining of opposition, breaking of the band in different camps afterwards ('progressive' vs nostalgia) but in any case Brian was not the questioned leader.
[/list]

And anything after Surf's Up is a different story.

What do you think, Mike?

[bossaroo]

Brian did contend with second-guessing by his bandmates and received much less support in the late 60s and early 70s.

We know that songs like We're Together Again and Old Man River were not included on any official release in those days. Til I Die was certainly not embraced by the rest of the band. Songs like Mess Of Help and Sail On Sailor were completely overhauled lyrically. Mt. Vernon and Fairway was also rejected outright initially. He was shamed out of writing and producing for outside projects like Redwood.

Regardless of the reasons: erratic behavior, questionable material, or the group coming into their own as songwriters, the fact is that Brian did receive much more resistance in those days... something he had never had to deal with before.

[MBE]

I guess they edited it out. Just a comment that the others didn't support Brian which is by and large not true. No band is going to agree 100 percent on every song, but The Beach Boys did overall go along with his wishes until the use of Surf's Up.

In the Brian Wilson Songwriter dvd (first period) there's an interesting comment from Bruce. He says that back in the day (pre-Smile), they didn't question Brian 'cause he was always right. He said it in a very sincere, nostalgic way.

Now after Smile was scrapped in 67, the rest of the bands had something to reference when 'questioning' Brian's decisions. Although to be honest, I think Brian's tight leading of the band was not the same post Smile - meaning, the challenging from the others was not met by fierce opposition from Brian. Just a thought, I sometimes think he just didn't care (that much) anymore.

He cared, he once spoke of how his heart was broken when the late sixties singles didn't do as well. He still had a leadership type of role as late as 1968 and even at times in 1969-70. Till 1971 they pretty much deferred to him

If you look at the musical choices post Smile, who most likely drove the decisions:

• Smiley Smile: driven mainly by the need to fulfill contractual obligation, market need. Brian took the group into a less complex production, not necessarily out of conviction, but maybe because of need (fast recording sessions, reduce costs from session musicians) and Brian's lost of interest.

Brian spoke glowingly of the sessions in early 1968 and he led the direction whole heartedly.

• Wild Honey: more 'bluesy'/'funkier' musical direction, opposite to the 'raw' sounds in Smiley. IMO this is the result of a band with no direction, where everyone was pulling different sides.

Again Brian had a lot to do with the album and so did Mike and Carl. Brian told me Stevie Wonder led him to want to do something like this. No dissention

• Friends: It's a more coherent album in the sense of the waltz-feeling in so many songs. I believe Brian was in better shape then, but completely out of synch with market expectations. And I guess the rest of the band was as lost as Brian, so no case for opposition there.

We know Brian led this one

• 20/20: If Wild Honey was everyone starting to pull in different directions, My God this is one of their most incoherent works ever. You got the nostalgic camp (Do it Again), the folky advocates (Cotton-Fields), the pseudo-rockers (Bluebirds) and the desperate recycling of Smile songs. Do you think Brian led this project? And if so, there was opposition to his musical direction? Wouldn't see how, since there was no musical direction at all.

Brian had a lot of final say even then according to some of my interviews. The Smile songs were done with his participation, but there was a disagreement about Old Man River. Still this was just one song and while Desper was there he said they always deferred to Brian on most things. I mean if Brian wanted to work on a song the others would stop whatever they were doing. That says respect to me. Maybe they didn't always like every single one of his ideas, but this isn't some form of treason. Al, Carl, Dennis, and Bruce had their own music they wanted to contribute and though Brian sometimes had mixed feelings, he didn't want to be a leader so much as a member of the band by the late sixties so other times he welcomed their stuff. He wasn't always there at these sessions but partially that is due to him going through a rough patch during part of recording.

• Sunflower: a group production, according to many in this board, and (coincidentally) their worst performing album charts-wise. I guess the band saw they needed a leader urgently and Brian was not the man - unfortunately.

Brian was writing more, producing more, and participating more. He took something of a lead role here, Bruce has spoken about that many times. Carl did a lot of the mixing, but again you must understand this was a happy period for the group amongst each other. They were close then and if it was a democracy, it was one Brian still wanted to be a big part of

• Surf's Up

: So the band got a leader, not one of their own, but someone from the outside - their new manager Jack R. I guess his decisions might have the begining of opposition, breaking of the band in different camps afterwards ('progressive' vs nostalgia) but in any case Brian was not the questioned leader.
[/list]By this point Brian wasn't leading but he still was a major member of the band as far as participation. He once said that he didn't feel it was until 1971 that they could really do records without giving some sort of input. Now that didn't mean that they hadn't been recording without him (mainly during 1968) but I took that to mean that everything was at least run by him for approval before. The remake of Surf's Up was the first major thing he was against but he decided to work on it anyway. He was too troubled to lead after this

And anything after Surf's Up is a different story.

What do you think, Mike?

[MBE]

One last thing is that Brian couldn't do stereo mixes without some sort of help. By 1968 mono was gone for LPs so that alone meant Carl had to get behind the boards more.

My book has a lot on this period. I can't reveal it all but the late sixties and early seventies were a much more up period for the band in the studio than the myth has it. Brian had problems, Brian sometimes lost interest, but the group offered him a hell of a lot of support which did help him. There wasn't this big move to take the band away or make Brian feel bad. By 1972 he was just in too bad a place to lead. The group did fight a lot, some opposed Brian's stuff , but most of that occurred from the mid seventies on. Even when Al did Cotton Fields again Brian sang on it so there wasn't this big us against Brian movement. The worst fights were caused directly from Landy and in the aftermath of those periods.

[MBE]

Brian did contend with second-guessing by his bandmates and received much less support in the late 60s and early 70s. That is way too strongly worded.


We know that songs like We're Together Again and Old Man River were not included on any official release in those days. The former was not an issue among the band whatsoever. Brian didn't even write the song, which may be the reason they didn't go with it. Brian didn't fight for it to come out, it was just not a major contender as good as it is. The latter was an isolated incident and his obsessive working on it caused somewhat understandable confusion Til I Die was certainly not embraced by the rest of the bandThere is sad to be one member who didn't like it, that didn't stop it from coming out nor from them working on it.  Many assumed it was Mike but if so  his view has changed greatly. Bruce certainly loved it for one, can't image Carl or Dennis not liking it.. Songs like Mess Of Help and Sail On Sailor were completely overhauled lyricallyThat was more Rieley and you are getting to a different period by here where Brian couldn't be counted on to do much. Sail On Sailor had a long gestation and many people were involved. There were lyrics about being coked out at one point, and Brian didn't write any of them anyhow.. Mt. Vernon and Fairway was also rejected outright initially.Carl didn't know what to make of it, but the fact that it was used says a lot. Mike liked it by the way. He was shamed out of writing and producing for outside projects like Redwood.Shamed is too strong a word here. They did want him to themselves to a certain extent but the crying in the studio story is ridiculous and not based in fact. They never much liked him working for other groups even in 1962-63 (who knew Redwood would become Three Dog Night) and it was a fair thought as a Beach Boy to want Brian to give his best work to the group.

Regardless of the reasons: erratic behavior, questionable material, or the group coming into their own as songwriters, the fact is that Brian did receive much more resistance in those days... something he had never had to deal with before.

Again everyone dropped anything for Brian. They wanted him to work-very much so. They didn't creatively fight with Brian to any huge extent until the use of Surf's Up. Mike didn't like some of Parks lyrics but he didn't end the Smile LP, he didn't refuse to work on it, and he frankly did some excellent work for it. Brian Wilson was in a band, one that suppored him as much as any other band would have. Maybe more as they were family. Look what happened to Syd Barrett or Brian Jones. Brian Wilson in the late sixties and early seventies was still held in some form of awe, but he wasn't unassailable and it wasn't an atmosphere where he made the others feel like they couldn't say their opinion. All bands are going to disagree sometimes but Brian led the direction on all the albums through Friends and had a lot to do with how Sunflower came out too along with Carl and Dennis. The fights later on were bad enough, why do people need to see Brian as this victim as a Beach Boy? That didn't happen until 1976 when he was put back out on the road and in the studio when he was obviously not well. Also he did have to deal with dissention before Pet Sounds, Carl for one was very against the fuzzy tone Brian wanted him to use on Little Honda. Just because Brian was in better health in 1964 doesn't mean that he didn't sometimes have to stand up for his ideas.

[Mike's Beard]

Mike I really want your book to come out!!

[MBE]

Mike I really want your book to come out!!

So do I. I am planning to write an addition about this year and will start sending it around again early next year.

[schiaffino]

Mike I really want your book to come out!!

So do I. I am planning to write an addition about this year and will start sending it around again early next year.

Yes Mike, really looking forward to reading your book.

[schiaffino]

One last thing is that Brian couldn't do stereo mixes without some sort of help. By 1968 mono was gone for LPs so that alone meant Carl had to get behind the boards more.

My book has a lot on this period. I can't reveal it all but the late sixties and early seventies were a much more up period for the band in the studio than the myth has it. Brian had problems, Brian sometimes lost interest, but the group offered him a hell of a lot of support which did help him. There wasn't this big move to take the band away or make Brian feel bad. By 1972 he was just in too bad a place to lead. The group did fight a lot, some opposed Brian's stuff , but most of that occurred from the mid seventies on. Even when Al did Cotton Fields again Brian sang on it so there wasn't this big us against Brian movement. The worst fights were caused directly from Landy and in the aftermath of those periods.

Thanks for all the comments, Mike, I've learned a lot about Brian from you. To be honest I've based my previous posts on my own personal analysis, on how I believe things may have happened back then. So any lights into the actual events is always very, very enriching.

I have one point thought that I want to share with you & ask your opinion.

The Beach Boys were the greatest band in the world in the summer/early fall of 1966 - when 'Good Vibrations' hit the #1 spot in both sides of the Atlantic. They were bigger at that time than The Beatles, Stones, Birds, whatever. The band got to know what being top-of-the-world meant: money, girls, drugs, the works. Brian was the one who made that possible, Dennis once said something along those lines.

You got very competitive commercial people like Mike Love in the band. You have also people like Dennis who don't want loose the perks from being a rock star. Meaning you have a band accustomed to success, being great and respected.

Then 'Smile' is scrapped, the band falls from grace. Regardless of how much we like some of the songs after 1967, none was ever regarded as highly both commercially and artistically as 'Good Vibrations'. Even 1971's version of 'Surf's Up', although the most attractive thing the band had put out by then, didn't bring them back the momentum they once had in the mid sixties.

So, in that context, I find it hard to believe the band was so cohesively behind Brian. The fall was very, very steep - by late 1967 the band was no longer relevant charts-wise. 'Friends' which you said was personally led by Brian, failed miserably in the charts; 'Sunflower' did even worst. Brian was not delivering the goods required for them to have that position of power again.

And power, once you've felt it, had it, it's very difficult to let go.

The rest of the band did attempt in writing, none to the level of Brian's heyday. That was a desperate attempt to get things back in track. So they chose to play live intensively, change their image - all things without Brian's involvement. This was in the early 70s, gained some respect, had some sell-out concerts and eventually via nostalgia got their only #1 album.

They gave the reigns back to Brian...what happens? Everything blows up in flames again.

I sincerely admire Brian Wilson. I think he should have been left alone, not forced to record/produce/tour after 'Smile'. He was pushed, coerced, blackmailed, fired from the band, bullied in so many emotional ways. That pisses me off.

[I. Spaceman]

The Beach Boys weren't bigger than The Beatles. I personally think his stepping down from his position as leader of the band is due to his own mental problems, and no one else is to blame for it.

[schiaffino]

The Beach Boys weren't bigger than The Beatles. I personally think his stepping down from his position as leader of the band is due to his own mental problems, and no one else is to blame for it.

If we take music critics as a point of reference in evaluating the relevance of a particular band at any given time in history, then British media (Melody Maker?) considered The Beach Boys bigger than The Beatles in late 1966.

In my very own, personal opinion, I think Brian Wilson was the most amazing musician of the 20th century - even more due to the impact of his work in such a short period of time. He made the band relevant in the 60s, his decline led to the band's irrelevance.