Four more years!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

A threat to WHAT business exactly.

And no one's even arguing with you anyway. You just need to stop being so ugly about this stuff.

I was using it as an example.

As far as being ugly about it...the people who support bullsh*t like Obamacare are the people who are supporting the destruction of the American job market. These are, coincidentally, the same people who bitch and moan left and right about their inability to find jobs. Gee, I wonder why? If I said "don't worry baby, everything will be all right", I'd be lying.

For the record, I work for a company that DOES pay benefits and I'm lucky to have that privilege.

Both sides bitch left and right, ya know? Sometimes it just becomes an irritating wind-tunnel and that's kind of where I'm at with it at the moment, and that's informing my tone.

Maybe it's also because I spent a year in Chile and tend to feel that rights are fragile and can be taken away when the wind blows the wrong way....

[Jason]

I'm sure Chileans circa 1973 would agree with that statement wholeheartedly.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And the only reason you have any freaking rights is because you are in a structured society that places a value on the word, otherwise it would be guys with more guns than you taking your damn rights from you and then making you lick their boots.

And we are also in a society that places the lowest possible value on labor performed, so don't try and pull that sh*t!

You're right...except in the case of business owners, they ARE having their rights taken away from them. The labor theory of value is a farce.

It is in no way a farce. I mean labor is IT. Without labor, you're f***ed... I mean unless you have slaves building the pyramids, you're f***ed. What rights do business owners even have if there's no business because there's no one to run the business or put up the walls???

[Jason]

If businesses want to keep employees they will work to ensure their employees are taken care of. Either they pay them a good wage or help with benefits. But it's down to the employee to find the best deal for him or herself.

For example, I was a shift manager making $10 years ago. My current job pays the same...with about half of the responsibilities, better benefits, paid vacation, and sick pay. I didn't exploit my employer to get those - they were offered to me. And even the employee handbook for my company says that their policy is subject to change. But it's neither here nor there...my employer and I entered into a voluntary agreement that was satisfactory to both. There's no reason that people who got their hours cut or their jobs canned because of this can't find another job that offers a better deal. They have to look and (GASP!) work hard to find it.

I just don't buy this "they're so helpless" farce. They're not helpless, they're lazy and in possession of a false sense of entitlement - like they're OWED something.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

And the only reason you have any freaking rights is because you are in a structured society that places a value on the word, otherwise it would be guys with more guns than you taking your damn rights from you and then making you lick their boots.

And we are also in a society that places the lowest possible value on labor performed, so don't try and pull that sh*t!

You're right...except in the case of business owners, they ARE having their rights taken away from them. The labor theory of value is a farce.

I'd wager you don't know what the labor theory of value is since Erik is not even talking about that.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Employee handbooks also pretty much say flat out that employer can fire you at any moment for any reason without explanation.

Do I have to rattle off a list of how the situation you describe is compromised and abused left and right on a daily basis?

It's not that what you're describing does not work and should not work. When it does, it's beautiful. I make quite a bit more than you with good benefits and I tell you, I didn't get there by being a nice guy and nodding my head and showing up for work. You have to do a certain amount or clawing or most jobs will happily let you sit there and stagnate forever.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

For someone who cries endlessly about his precious rights, you just feel completely comfortable rattling off a list of what other people DO NOT have a right too???

Your rights end where mine begin. Health care isn't a right. And no one has a right to health insurance simply because he or she is employed. Those benefits are a PRIVILEGE, not a right. If I agree to pay benefits to my employees, it's a non-issue; I already determined I can and want to pay those benefits. However, if I cannot or do not want to pay benefits, the government forcing me to do so under the pain of a penalty is an unjust deprivation of the product of my labor and a threat to my business.

It depends where you are. In every industrialized country, health care is considered a right and not a commodity. Because of course, it's not a commodity. And if it is, we should really privatize all sexual acts while we're at it.

[Jason]

For someone who cries endlessly about his precious rights, you just feel completely comfortable rattling off a list of what other people DO NOT have a right too???

Your rights end where mine begin. Health care isn't a right. And no one has a right to health insurance simply because he or she is employed. Those benefits are a PRIVILEGE, not a right. If I agree to pay benefits to my employees, it's a non-issue; I already determined I can and want to pay those benefits. However, if I cannot or do not want to pay benefits, the government forcing me to do so under the pain of a penalty is an unjust deprivation of the product of my labor and a threat to my business.

It depends where you are. In every industrialized country, health care is considered a right and not a commodity. Because of course, it's not a commodity. And if it is, we should really privatize all sexual acts while we're at it.

I'm in favor of legalized prostitution...so make of that what you will. Hey, if medical professionals wish to offer their services for free, that's on them.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

For someone who cries endlessly about his precious rights, you just feel completely comfortable rattling off a list of what other people DO NOT have a right too???

Your rights end where mine begin. Health care isn't a right. And no one has a right to health insurance simply because he or she is employed. Those benefits are a PRIVILEGE, not a right. If I agree to pay benefits to my employees, it's a non-issue; I already determined I can and want to pay those benefits. However, if I cannot or do not want to pay benefits, the government forcing me to do so under the pain of a penalty is an unjust deprivation of the product of my labor and a threat to my business.

It depends where you are. In every industrialized country, health care is considered a right and not a commodity. Because of course, it's not a commodity. And if it is, we should really privatize all sexual acts while we're at it.

Oh no! Marcella's back in business

[Jason]

Employee handbooks also pretty much say flat out that employer can fire you at any moment for any reason without explanation.

Do I have to rattle off a list of how the situation you describe is compromised and abused left and right on a daily basis?

It's not that what you're describing does not work and should not work. When it does, it's beautiful. I make quite a bit more than you with good benefits and I tell you, I didn't get there by being a nice guy and nodding my head and showing up for work. You have to do a certain amount or clawing or most jobs will happily let you sit there and stagnate forever.

There's nothing wrong with clawing if it results in a decision that both can agree upon. Making a request is one thing, threatening violence is another.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm in favor of legalized prostitution...so make of that what you will. Hey, if medical professionals wish to offer their services for free, that's on them.

I'm talking about all sexual acts, not legalized prostitution. After all, one could easily say that sex is a privilege. Because, well, it is. So might as well put it on the profit model. If sexual professionals wish to offer sex for free, they can, but of course, they won't because if they can either profit or not profit, they will choose the former. So, please tell me, why shouldn't we make all sexual acts a for-profit enterprise?

[Jason]

If both sides agree to it, why not?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't understand how one's rights can be unassailable and holy but health care: a privilege!

Wouldn't this really mean your rights would be mere privileges too? I mean how can you separate well being and the ability to seek/receive medical attention as a privilege while there still being these so-called rights? I know our society has been set-up to cloud the subject but this does not make it right. I mean, if three guys are hunting in the woods and one guy accidentally shoots another and they can save the guy's life by stopping the bleeding etc etc, are the two other guys gonna stand back and go "Hey, wait! But what are you going to do for US"? Would it be criminal for the guys to refuse to save the guy's life when they are perfectly capable to do so?

[Jason]

I don't understand how one's rights can be unassailable and holy but health care: a privilege!

Wouldn't this really mean your rights would be mere privileges too? I mean how can you separate well being and the ability to seek/receive medical attention as a privilege while there still being these so-called rights? I know our society has been set-up to cloud the subject but this does not make it right. I mean, if three guys are hunting in the woods and one guy accidentally shoots another and they can save the guy's life by stopping the bleeding etc etc, are the two other guys gonna stand back and go "Hey, wait! But what are you going to do for US"?

Well, I'm an atheist, so I don't subscribe to the "God-given rights" bullshit.

Health care is a service. When it comes to a life and death matter like health care I think it's logical to want an ineffective, wasteful entity such as government as far away from it as possible. Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to be healthy and pay for what I use.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

If both sides agree to it, why not?

Well, let's put aside the fact that commodity culture de-humanizes all of us and making sex strictly an object of exchange reinforces that. This is hardly a matter of what "both sides agree to" - the majority of the American population have long called for a public option in health care so I find it hard to believe that your stance on health care has anything to do with what anyone "agrees to" do.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't understand how one's rights can be unassailable and holy but health care: a privilege!

Wouldn't this really mean your rights would be mere privileges too? I mean how can you separate well being and the ability to seek/receive medical attention as a privilege while there still being these so-called rights? I know our society has been set-up to cloud the subject but this does not make it right. I mean, if three guys are hunting in the woods and one guy accidentally shoots another and they can save the guy's life by stopping the bleeding etc etc, are the two other guys gonna stand back and go "Hey, wait! But what are you going to do for US"?

Well, I'm an atheist, so I don't subscribe to the "God-given rights" bullsh*t.

Health care is a service. When it comes to a life and death matter like health care I think it's logical to want an ineffective, wasteful entity such as government as far away from it as possible. Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to be healthy and pay for what I use.

I don't believe in God either, so leave him/it out of this.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't understand how one's rights can be unassailable and holy but health care: a privilege!

Wouldn't this really mean your rights would be mere privileges too? I mean how can you separate well being and the ability to seek/receive medical attention as a privilege while there still being these so-called rights? I know our society has been set-up to cloud the subject but this does not make it right. I mean, if three guys are hunting in the woods and one guy accidentally shoots another and they can save the guy's life by stopping the bleeding etc etc, are the two other guys gonna stand back and go "Hey, wait! But what are you going to do for US"?

Well, I'm an atheist, so I don't subscribe to the "God-given rights" bullsh*t.

Health care is a service. When it comes to a life and death matter like health care I think it's logical to want an ineffective, wasteful entity such as government as far away from it as possible. Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to be healthy and pay for what I use.

I'm asking you to think!!!  Sh*t happens....... If we're hiking in the woods and you slip and crack your head open and I refuse to carry you back to camp and to help because you have no money on you and can't pay me and I look at hauling you back to camp as A SERVICE and you die. What does this make me???

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Health care is a service. When it comes to a life and death matter like health care I think it's logical to want an ineffective, wasteful entity such as government as far away from it as possible. Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to be healthy and pay for what I use.

This though is delusional since the United States has the health care system with the least government involvement in the industrialized world and is the most wasteful and expensive and doesn't even cover everybody, making it the most inefficient health care system in a first world country. As studies have shown, the United States can eliminate their deficit by adopting a public health care system - such is the understood waste of the private health care model.

[Jason]

I don't understand how one's rights can be unassailable and holy but health care: a privilege!

Wouldn't this really mean your rights would be mere privileges too? I mean how can you separate well being and the ability to seek/receive medical attention as a privilege while there still being these so-called rights? I know our society has been set-up to cloud the subject but this does not make it right. I mean, if three guys are hunting in the woods and one guy accidentally shoots another and they can save the guy's life by stopping the bleeding etc etc, are the two other guys gonna stand back and go "Hey, wait! But what are you going to do for US"?

Well, I'm an atheist, so I don't subscribe to the "God-given rights" bullsh*t.

Health care is a service. When it comes to a life and death matter like health care I think it's logical to want an ineffective, wasteful entity such as government as far away from it as possible. Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to be healthy and pay for what I use.

I'm asking you to think!!!  Sh*t happens....... If we're hiking in the woods and you slip and crack your head open and I refuse to carry you back to camp and to help because you have no money on you and can't pay me and I look at hauling you back to camp as A SERVICE and you die. What does this make me???

I think you're reaching really far with this, but I doubt that would be the first thought in your mind if that ever happened. Your first response would be to help. I doubt payment would be an issue especially if it was a friend of yours who was injured.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I don't understand how one's rights can be unassailable and holy but health care: a privilege!

Wouldn't this really mean your rights would be mere privileges too? I mean how can you separate well being and the ability to seek/receive medical attention as a privilege while there still being these so-called rights? I know our society has been set-up to cloud the subject but this does not make it right. I mean, if three guys are hunting in the woods and one guy accidentally shoots another and they can save the guy's life by stopping the bleeding etc etc, are the two other guys gonna stand back and go "Hey, wait! But what are you going to do for US"?

Well, I'm an atheist, so I don't subscribe to the "God-given rights" bullsh*t.

Health care is a service. When it comes to a life and death matter like health care I think it's logical to want an ineffective, wasteful entity such as government as far away from it as possible. Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to be healthy and pay for what I use.

I'm asking you to think!!!  Sh*t happens....... If we're hiking in the woods and you slip and crack your head open and I refuse to carry you back to camp and to help because you have no money on you and can't pay me and I look at hauling you back to camp as A SERVICE and you die. What does this make me???

I think you're reaching really far with this, but I doubt that would be the first thought in your mind if that ever happened. Your first response would be to help. I doubt payment would be an issue especially if it was a friend of yours who was injured.

It's remarkable that in our most basic relationships, we find the tenets of free market capitalism to be largely useless.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't understand how one's rights can be unassailable and holy but health care: a privilege!

Wouldn't this really mean your rights would be mere privileges too? I mean how can you separate well being and the ability to seek/receive medical attention as a privilege while there still being these so-called rights? I know our society has been set-up to cloud the subject but this does not make it right. I mean, if three guys are hunting in the woods and one guy accidentally shoots another and they can save the guy's life by stopping the bleeding etc etc, are the two other guys gonna stand back and go "Hey, wait! But what are you going to do for US"?

Well, I'm an atheist, so I don't subscribe to the "God-given rights" bullsh*t.

Health care is a service. When it comes to a life and death matter like health care I think it's logical to want an ineffective, wasteful entity such as government as far away from it as possible. Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to be healthy and pay for what I use.

I'm asking you to think!!!  Sh*t happens....... If we're hiking in the woods and you slip and crack your head open and I refuse to carry you back to camp and to help because you have no money on you and can't pay me and I look at hauling you back to camp as A SERVICE and you die. What does this make me???

I think you're reaching really far with this, but I doubt that would be the first thought in your mind if that ever happened. Your first response would be to help. I doubt payment would be an issue especially if it was a friend of yours who was injured.

But I would consider the same to apply to a stranger who I see fall and crack their head open.

And I'm not reaching. "Reaching" is the situation we are in as a nation health-care-wise.

[Bean Bag]

Your rights end where mine begin. Health care isn't a right. And no one has a right to health insurance...

That's right.

It's simple.  Health Care is a service...provided by Health Care professionals.  To have a right to their services is ...well, kinda like how Democrats viewed the world in the 1860s.  'Cept back then, they used chains -- now it's hanging chads and food stamps.

Say...Erik, what do you do for a living?  Don't answer... it don't matter.  I want your services anyhow.  How does 2 AM sound?  Doesn't matter... I comin' round, and I have a right to them.  So, if you hear a knock.. 

Ain't Obama's Amerika grand?



Erik H -- you know I'm kidding about 2 am, right?  I'm just making a point.   

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

My alarm is set regardless 

[Jason]

Your rights end where mine begin. Health care isn't a right. And no one has a right to health insurance...

That's right.

It's simple.  Health Care is a service...provided by Health Care professionals.  To have a right to their services is ...well, kinda like how Democrats viewed the world in the 1860s.  'Cept back then, they used chains -- now it's hanging chads and food stamps.

Slavery never ended...it "evolved" into welfare state measures. If you can't see that welfare was designed to keep the minorities down, you're seriously fooling yourself.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Go tell this to all the poor white trash on Gov assistance in the God Fearing,  Romney voting Bible-belt.

OK, so we instantly do away with all Gov assistance to the poor/needy. What happens then? Let's hear it!