Four more years!

[Bean Bag]

Your rights end where mine begin. Health care isn't a right. And no one has a right to health insurance...

That's right.

It's simple.  Health Care is a service...provided by Health Care professionals.  To have a right to their services is ...well, kinda like how Democrats viewed the world in the 1860s.  'Cept back then, they used chains -- now it's hanging chads and food stamps.

Slavery never ended...it "evolved" into welfare state measures. If you can't see that welfare was designed to keep the minorities down, you're seriously fooling yourself.

Oh, I see it bro.  They always have a sales pitch, too.  For welfare, it was "the safety net."    The holy safety net.  For slavery (and the current open borders/sub-cheap labor debate) -- it's the economy.  "It's the economy stupid."  

This is the depraved mind of a Stateist -- Americans are lacking something only they, the State can provide.  The safety net did not exist until they, the State arrived to declare it so.   Things will be fair now -- ObamaCare is here!!  They're astonished when people care for each other.  Human beings, caring for themselves and one another -- without them -- literally blows their minds.  Pisses 'em off.  Because, in their world, people are helpless turds who need their intellect.

They're smart.  We're not.  A State system -- administered by the Stateist -- is always needed.  And they won't stop until that's achieved.  Because that's how they've defined "equality."

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I assume your bags are packed and you'll be on the next flight out of here and away from the state. Meaanwhile, you take full advantage of regulations of the state and can comfortably presume the plane won't fall from the sky.

You are all a bunch of crybaby hypocrites preaching from the comfort of your parent's basements and protected by the efforts of others to lavish you with your precious rights and all you can do is blather about the way thinga are with zero altruism or redeeming factors whatsoever and you bitch and bitch about those less fortunate then your fat greedy selves. Good riddence.... And then there are your bad points which I won't even get into. You guys personify the stupid, mean and ugly American in all his pathetic splendor and you know it and consider it a strength.

[Dunderhead]

I assume your bags are packed and you'll be on the next flight out of here and away from the state. Meaanwhile, you take full advantage of regulations of the state and can comfortably presume the plane won't fall from the sky.

You are all a bunch of crybaby hypocrites preaching from the comfort of your parent's basements and protected by the efforts of others to lavish you with your precious rights and all you can do is blather about the way thinga are with zero altruism or redeeming factors whatsoever and you bitch and bitch about those less fortunate then your fat greedy selves. Good riddence.... And then there are your bad points which I won't even get into. You guys personify the stupid, mean and ugly American in all his pathetic splendor and you know it and consider it a strength.

Calm down, just calm down already, I repeat, CALM DOWN. You're going over the edge every other post you make, and you just aren't showing good judgement in what you're posting. I'm not telling you this to be mean to you, I'm telling you this as your friend who thinks that you're doing yourself a disservice by carrying on like this. Be the bigger man for once, you're taking the discussion here way too personally and you let yourself be set off by anything whether it was directed at you or not. You're acting shamefully, and I don't care who you think started it or if you think someone else was just as bad, you're an adult, and you need to start acting like it.

[hypehat]

Men who are pro-life hate women. It's probably that simple. Tied up with a lot of religious hokum. It's their right to choose, for either way, and men should gtfo of it unless they are the potential father. But that's it.

Hypehat, I'm beginning to think that rational thought is beyond you.  You clearly think with your heart, but you should try thinking with your head, because you can say some truly ridiculous things sometimes (such as Eric Clapton being some horrible racist. Remember that humdinger?).  Try this one on for size: I consider myself pro-life, with a few obvious exceptions.  I am not religious.  I simply believe that if a couple is sexually active, then they are taking the responsibility with it.  I don't view it as any rights being denied here (except maybe the right to life).  There are plenty of things a couple can do to responsibly avoid procreation.  Please, explain to me how that makes me hate women?  Go on...I'm waiting...

Dude, Eric Clapton went up on a stage and lectured a crowd in one of the most racially diverse cities in Britain about Enoch Powell and that they should 'Keep Britain White'. So, not racist.  

It makes you hate women because you're telling them that they can't get contraception. That's the implication when you say 'I'm pro-life'. It's no skin off your nose. You won't get pregnant. The implication that when a woman gets pregnant she is being 'irresponsible' for having sex, when of course being responsible would go hand in hand with easy contraceptive access and abortions and using those resources and being able to have a child when they want, is sexist and insulting.


Of course, I'm not implying that either you and Rab (whose reasons make a whole lot more sense than your responsibility guff) are members of the Westboro Baptists or something, we're all just kicking these balls around on the internet.

I go away for one weekend, huh....  

[hypehat]

And Fishmonk, this is exactly what I mean when I say I don't trust businessmen. They are clearly not expressing any consideration for the customer by manipulating bloody gas prices in a recession.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/12/libor-like-manipulation-gas-markets

(as an aside, just edited a book on the FSA and there are cases coming out of their ears about people in The City manipulating the markets for personal gain. Not isolated)

Oh, and there's this - Did you know, Starbucks 'doesn't make a profit in the UK', so they don't pay any income or corporation tax? What charity!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/12/amazon-google-starbucks-diverting-uk-profits

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It makes you hate women because you're telling them that they can't get contraception. That's the implication when you say 'I'm pro-life'.

Not with everybody. I believe that abortion is okay if a woman is raped (take THAT, teabillies) or if there is a high probability that the mother and/or the baby won't survive the pregnancy. I don't agree with it if it was a case where there was consensual sex and then the two people are like 'oh noes....we don't want a baby'. Well, should have thought of that first, huh? It's called using protection.

[SMiLE Brian]

It makes you hate women because you're telling them that they can't get contraception. That's the implication when you say 'I'm pro-life'.

Not with everybody. I believe that abortion is okay if a woman is raped (take THAT, teabillies) or if there is a high probability that the mother and/or the baby won't survive the pregnancy. I don't agree with it if it was a case where there was consensual sex and then the two people are like 'oh noes....we don't want a baby'. Well, should have thought of that first, huh? It's called using protection.

New term:Teabillies

[Mike's Beard]

As an Englishman I would be interested to hear American posters perspectives on our NHS. The plus for us is we never have to worry about not being able to afford being treated if we become ill, the minus is it is funded by our excessive tax system. Our government would tax us everytime we lifted our leg and farted if they could figure out a way to do so. Plus half of Eastern fucking Europe sneak over here to abuse our healthcare system when they are not entitled to.

If you could pick, either system what would it be?

[Jason]

It makes you hate women because you're telling them that they can't get contraception. That's the implication when you say 'I'm pro-life'. It's no skin off your nose. You won't get pregnant. The implication that when a woman gets pregnant she is being 'irresponsible' for having sex, when of course being responsible would go hand in hand with easy contraceptive access and abortions and using those resources and being able to have a child when they want, is sexist and insulting.

I don't believe people shouldn't have access to contraception. But at the same time I don't want to and shouldn't have to pay for someone else's behaviors. But this whole idea of "free contraception" and "free abortions" as of late is just off the map. I am pro-choice and understand the value of contraception beyond its usual prescribed use. But it's not my problem and certainly not my responsibility to ensure that someone else who wants contraceptives or wants an abortion gets them at no charge to them but at a charge to me via taxation under Obamadoesn'tcare.

Contraceptives should be as easily available as condoms. Period. I don't think you'll find a more pro-women deal than that.

Not with everybody. I believe that abortion is okay if a woman is raped (take THAT, teabillies) or if there is a high probability that the mother and/or the baby won't survive the pregnancy. I don't agree with it if it was a case where there was consensual sex and then the two people are like 'oh noes....we don't want a baby'. Well, should have thought of that first, huh? It's called using protection.

You mean like the "legitimate rape" that led to Roe v. Wade?

[Jason]

As an Englishman I would be interested to hear American posters perspectives on our NHS. The plus for us is we never have to worry about not being able to afford being treated if we become ill, the minus is it is funded by our excessive tax system. Our government would tax us everytime we lifted our leg and farted if they could figure out a way to do so. Plus half of Eastern f***ing Europe sneak over here to abuse our healthcare system when they are not entitled to.

If you could pick, either system what would it be?

Private. Always. If a public option ever became the standard in the United States I would hope it's an OPTION. I don't want to wait six months to see a doctor when I can pay for the privilege and get it done.

Like they say...

Good service cheap won't be fast.
Cheap service fast won't be good.
Fast service good won't be cheap.

[hypehat]

It makes you hate women because you're telling them that they can't get contraception. That's the implication when you say 'I'm pro-life'.

Not with everybody. I believe that abortion is okay if a woman is raped (take THAT, teabillies) or if there is a high probability that the mother and/or the baby won't survive the pregnancy. I don't agree with it if it was a case where there was consensual sex and then the two people are like 'oh noes....we don't want a baby'. Well, should have thought of that first, huh? It's called using protection.

I don't wanna beef with you, man, but accidents happen even with protection. If a woman does not want to be pregnant, that's all there is to it.

(As you all may have guessed, I am not sympathetic to the plight of the foetus...)

TRBB, I've been to my GP tonnes lately and haven't had to wait more than, ooo, a week at the very latest, for an appointment. Most of the time I get appointments the same day. On the other hand, I have to wait months to see my private dentist. You don't know jack about the NHS, outside of the Daily Mail.

[Mike's Beard]

As an Englishman I would be interested to hear American posters perspectives on our NHS. The plus for us is we never have to worry about not being able to afford being treated if we become ill, the minus is it is funded by our excessive tax system. Our government would tax us everytime we lifted our leg and farted if they could figure out a way to do so. Plus half of Eastern f***ing Europe sneak over here to abuse our healthcare system when they are not entitled to.

If you could pick, either system what would it be?

Private. Always. If a public option ever became the standard in the United States I would hope it's an OPTION. I don't want to wait six months to see a doctor when I can pay for the privilege and get it done.

Like they say...

Good service cheap won't be fast.
Cheap service fast won't be good.
Fast service good won't be cheap.

We have private healthcare over here too such as BUPA and anyone that can afford it usually chooses to do so rather than use the NHS.

[Jason]

TRBB, I've been to my GP tonnes lately and haven't had to wait more than, ooo, a week at the very latest, for an appointment. Most of the time I get appointments the same day. On the other hand, I have to wait months to see my private dentist. You don't know jack about the NHS, outside of the Daily Mail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/7127602.stm
http://www.theinformationdaily.com/2007/09/24/csr-07-health-the-public-expects

I'm thankful I never had to live in Britain and you couldn't pay me a billion g*ddamned dollars to live there either with a system that you guys call "health care".

As an Englishman I would be interested to hear American posters perspectives on our NHS. The plus for us is we never have to worry about not being able to afford being treated if we become ill, the minus is it is funded by our excessive tax system. Our government would tax us everytime we lifted our leg and farted if they could figure out a way to do so. Plus half of Eastern f***ing Europe sneak over here to abuse our healthcare system when they are not entitled to.

If you could pick, either system what would it be?

Private. Always. If a public option ever became the standard in the United States I would hope it's an OPTION. I don't want to wait six months to see a doctor when I can pay for the privilege and get it done.

Like they say...

Good service cheap won't be fast.
Cheap service fast won't be good.
Fast service good won't be cheap.

We have private healthcare over here too such as BUPA and anyone that can afford it usually chooses to do so rather than use the NHS.

Except people have to pay twice to use those services. Either you pay for one or the other, not both. That's not fair. Why should someone pay both for a product they will use and a product they won't use in order to receive the product they will use?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I assume your bags are packed and you'll be on the next flight out of here and away from the state. Meaanwhile, you take full advantage of regulations of the state and can comfortably presume the plane won't fall from the sky.

You are all a bunch of crybaby hypocrites preaching from the comfort of your parent's basements and protected by the efforts of others to lavish you with your precious rights and all you can do is blather about the way thinga are with zero altruism or redeeming factors whatsoever and you bitch and bitch about those less fortunate then your fat greedy selves. Good riddence.... And then there are your bad points which I won't even get into. You guys personify the stupid, mean and ugly American in all his pathetic splendor and you know it and consider it a strength.

Calm down, just calm down already, I repeat, CALM DOWN. You're going over the edge every other post you make, and you just aren't showing good judgement in what you're posting. I'm not telling you this to be mean to you, I'm telling you this as your friend who thinks that you're doing yourself a disservice by carrying on like this. Be the bigger man for once, you're taking the discussion here way too personally and you let yourself be set off by anything whether it was directed at you or not. You're acting shamefully, and I don't care who you think started it or if you think someone else was just as bad, you're an adult, and you need to start acting like it.

I'm sorry, Fishmonk but it was a well deserved tirade. Why don't you try calming down and asking yourself if you truly have anything to contribute to any such discussion beyond name calling and tiresome droning. Please ask yourself.... And it is personal! This is serious stuff and you guys are acting like a bunch of spoiled babies and are myopic in your views to the extreme...

This crap isn't rocket science. People like TRBB advocating no government and privatization across the board have their points, but in both the short run and long run, it is impracticable and borderline suicidal and anyone for complete and total government rule over every aspect of society(which no one here is even doing)  has issues as well. There has to be another way of doing things. Rattling on and on and on how thing simply run/work as-is, is not helping anything and that's why you annoy me, Fishmonk. You've brought nothing to the discussion. If I was here at work asking how we can knock the ratings up for a program, I'd have you sitting to my right smugly droning on and on and on about how the ratings system works, and it wouldn't help anyone.

[Mike's Beard]

Exactly. As a very soon to be ex NHS employee I'd love for it to disappear. In fact it's not so much of a question as will the NHS will go as when. They have made such a balls up of it and now we have reached the point where NHS hospitals are being taken over by private companies because they are such money pits. They have made cutback after cutback in an attempt to save money which has resulted in overworked staff who are unable to provide proper healthcare and fucking hate their jobs.

In an ideal world I'd like to see an end to the NHS - which in theory should give us much lower tax rates, cheaper VAT etc..  Cheap basic Healthcare Insurance Companies would become the norm and Doctors, G.Ps, Dentists and Specialists would then be forced to make their rates competitive to gain custom like any other form of business.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Exactly. As a very soon to be ex NHS employee I'd love for it to disappear. In fact it's not so much of a question as will the NHS will go as when. They have made such a balls up of it and now we have reached the point where NHS hospitals are being taken over by private companies because they are such money pits. They have made cutback after cutback in an attempt to save money which has resulted in overworked staff who are unable to provide proper healthcare and f***ing hate their jobs.

In an ideal world I'd like to see an end to the NHS - which in theory should give us much lower tax rates, cheaper VAT etc..  Cheap basic Healthcare Insurance Companies would become the norm and Doctors, G.Ps, Dentists and Specialists would then be forced to make their rates competitive to gain custom like any other form of business.

Now here we go! Someone presenting an actual idea! I may not agree with it completely, but it's forward thinking at least.

[Jason]

Exactly. As a very soon to be ex NHS employee I'd love for it to disappear. In fact it's not so much of a question as will the NHS will go as when. They have made such a balls up of it and now we have reached the point where NHS hospitals are being taken over by private companies because they are such money pits. They have made cutback after cutback in an attempt to save money which has resulted in overworked staff who are unable to provide proper healthcare and f***ing hate their jobs.

In an ideal world I'd like to see an end to the NHS - which in theory should give us much lower tax rates, cheaper VAT etc..  Cheap basic Healthcare Insurance Companies would become the norm and Doctors, G.Ps, Dentists and Specialists would then be forced to make their rates competitive to gain custom like any other form of business.

Now here we go! Someone presenting an actual idea! I may not agree with it completely, but it's forward thinking at least.

I said the exact same thing (albeit worded differently).

[hypehat]

TRBB, I've been to my GP tonnes lately and haven't had to wait more than, ooo, a week at the very latest, for an appointment. Most of the time I get appointments the same day. On the other hand, I have to wait months to see my private dentist. You don't know jack about the NHS, outside of the Daily Mail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/7127602.stm
http://www.theinformationdaily.com/2007/09/24/csr-07-health-the-public-expects

I'm thankful I never had to live in Britain and you couldn't pay me a billion goshdarned dollars to live there either with a system that you guys call "health care".

So what you're saying is that your information on the NHS is five years old? One of them is about EU Law, and the other says that people were too optimistic about the NHS when a new Prime Minister took office? What's your point?

Oh right, it's another instance of 'white' to your 'black' so you dismiss it out of hand.

Mike's Beard, what if the government actually stopped cutting the NHS and invested money in it (not that that's going to happen soon with this fuckin govt)? It's been cut back and attacked since the eighties, no wonder it's in a state. The government sold them off because of the neoliberal ideas that you are suggesting.

[Jason]

The fact that the government decides the funding for the NHS is the most damning part of it. I just don't get why anyone would entrust their health care to the government.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

The fact that the government decides the funding for the NHS is the most damning part of it. I just don't get why anyone would entrust their health care to the government.

Yeah, and it's the wording around here that sets off the wrong buttons....

And I could say the same thing about entrusting my health care to a unregulated private company looking out for its shareholders/profit first and foremost. Sure, they might curb their behavior to suit public demand/outcry but probably not until after some serious disasters.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The fact that the government decides the funding for the NHS is the most damning part of it. I just don't get why anyone would entrust their health care to the government.

Because it turns out you get typically better care. According to the World Health Report, despite spending the most on health care, the US ultimately ranks 15th in overall performance.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

In an ideal world I'd like to see an end to the NHS - which in theory should give us much lower tax rates,

No it wouldn't. The UK spends half as much on healthcare per person as the US.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Rocknroll, we're dealing with people who have an irrational hatred of the Government in any form. These are people who are basically saying something akin to "Our prison system isn't working so let's let all the prisoners out and because they're now free, all the rapists and killers will behave because if they don't behave, people won't like them".... Pure fantasy land. There is no point discussing with them. You can present facts but they don't hear them. This is a VERY personal thing with them. This seething hatred of government. It's easy to do some psychoanalyzing as to perhaps why: but that would be cruel and uncalled for. This is a message board, mind you.  

[Jason]

To say that the opposition to myself, Fishmonk, Mike's Beard, and Bean Bag have provided "facts" would be giving the opposition WAY too much credit.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

To say that the opposition to myself, Fishmonk, Mike's Beard, and Bean Bag have provided "facts" would be giving the opposition WAY too much credit.

Well, at least SOME credit is due the opposition as opposed to the other side...... So there....

I'm signing off for good. Soon, Rocknroll, Hyphat, Guitarfool will bow out and the circle jerk will go on unabated.

One silly Beer-Hall-Putsch with no Hitler..... THE BEER HALL PUTZ!

Ciao.