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Author Topic: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)  (Read 46354 times)
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« Reply #75 on: May 28, 2012, 05:31:29 PM »

nor does he show signs of brain disfunctinality. He's still on top of his game with no evidence of schizo or other obvious brain abnormalities. Let me know if I'm wrong.

No one of sound mind would wear their hair like that, especially in combination with that moustache.

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« Reply #76 on: May 28, 2012, 05:34:45 PM »

Brian was an adult and made his decision. Many of us twist ourselves in knots defending Brian. Not content to merely excuse Brian's actions, we squarely place the blame for their consequences on the shoulders of anyone within spitting distance.

It is common for mental illnesses such as Schizophrenia to manifest themselves in the early to mid 20's. A stressful experience of any kind can trigger this, whether a bad acid trip, bad experience with marijuana, divorce, etc. It is my understanding that people will schizoaffective disorders should not smoke pot (technically a mild hallucinogen), let alone trip on acid.

Let's go back to the mid-60's. Brian tells Loren he wants to do acid. If Loren Schwartz has tripped with a lot of people before, what would make him worry that Brian would have a nervous breakdown as a result? Tons of people drop acid and do not have nervous breakdowns.

LSD is not for everyone, especially someone who we now know (with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight) was predisposed to schizophrenia, or some similar disorder.

I agree that Loren did not come off well in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary, and his insults towards Marilyn and others drag down his argument in this piece. Loren could be a misunderstood guy, or a douchebag, or a combination of both, but his personal merits and foibles are wholly immaterial. He is trying to defend actions that need no defending.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.
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« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2012, 05:37:30 PM »

I have a suspicion that, post-breakdowns, maybe Brian might have told Loren the breakdowns were fake, out of shame/embarrassment. I can see how that might happen--not wanting to look damaged or small to a friend.

This is based on nothing at all, just a hunch. Just because that's what Brian (might have) told Daro, that doesn't mean it's true.
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« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2012, 05:40:23 PM »

Fake post.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 05:43:10 PM by Mikie » Logged

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2012, 05:42:22 PM »

No one of sound mind would wear their hair like that, especially in combination with that moustache.

Good point. The guy's obviously deranged...
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2012, 05:46:13 PM »

But........as Brian said himself:  "I did the acid and it tore my head off". 

So maybe he knows.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2012, 05:51:45 PM »

Not even close.

There's a big difference between bias and/or embellishment versus flat out character assassination.





Mike Love might argue that Beautiful Dreamer was character assassination.  Just as Brian Wilson might argue that the ABC miniseries was as well.  Neither side is looking innocent in this little exchange.
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« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2012, 06:49:17 PM »

Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.
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« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2012, 06:56:35 PM »

Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.

Yeah, well Daro is a c*ck himself.  As are people who believe that anyone who's gone through what Brian Wilson has for the past fifty years is faking it.  Why do you bother being a Brian Wilson fan and hating Mike Love, if you think Brian is a liar and a phony about something like that?
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« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2012, 07:00:21 PM »

As for Loren, he comes off as a delusional (in the literal sense) egomaniac by claiming no less than two songs were written about him and his wife.  Crazy people believe things are about them.  If that is Loren.  If IJWMFTT isn't about Brian per se, it might be Tony Asher writing about young people in general, including himself, just as the song "That's Not Me" is about young adulthood.  The entire album has that theme, and Tony has said that's what the project was about, as well as Brian. 

Erm, John Lennon believed that both Hey Jude and Get Back were about him and Yoko. Paul McCartney believed that Nowhere Man was about him. Just because they're wrong doesn't mean that they are delusional and lacking credibility. I'm sure this happens frequently when you are close to someone and they write a lot of music and you see some personal connection to the lyrics.
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« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2012, 07:00:57 PM »

Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.

Yeah, well Daro is a c*ck himself.  As are people who believe that anyone who's gone through what Brian Wilson has for the past fifty years is faking it.  

Well, if you read Daro's comments, you know for certain that he doesn't think that.

That being said, I am sad to see his comments about Marilyn. She always seemed like kind of an ideal.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 07:04:07 PM by rockandroll » Logged
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« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2012, 07:11:14 PM »

Not even close.

There's a big difference between bias and/or embellishment versus flat out character assassination.





Mike Love might argue that Beautiful Dreamer was character assassination.  Just as Brian Wilson might argue that the ABC miniseries was as well.  Neither side is looking innocent in this little exchange.

Whoa, Jeff Mason.  What a delight to see that name again.
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« Reply #87 on: May 28, 2012, 07:38:11 PM »

Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.

Yeah, well Daro is a c*ck himself.  As are people who believe that anyone who's gone through what Brian Wilson has for the past fifty years is faking it.  Why do you bother being a Brian Wilson fan and hating Mike Love, if you think Brian is a liar and a phony about something like that?
Understandable question but whether it's b/s or not, he certainly nailed the Myke Luhv take on Brian's "modern music".
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« Reply #88 on: May 28, 2012, 07:38:58 PM »

I don't know about this particular post but I found his contact back in the day through a public post looking for a coronet I think it was. He hasn't been hiding. He was very generous with his time and conversation and kindly to me.

I think he is being judged pretty harshly on a few out of context quotes in a documentary without any conversation.

Thanks Craig.
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« Reply #89 on: May 28, 2012, 10:09:55 PM »

There is some definite truth to the idea that Brian was never "really" mentally ill. In one interview Brian says he first started hearing voices one week after taking LSD. If that's true it suggests coincidence. I've posted this before, but that seems like a very atypical experience. The onset of schizophrenia is commonly linked to stressful events, "voices" begin giving commands and suggestions when someone is troubled and unable to cope with the demands imposed upon them by their lives. A psychedelic experience does not cause schizophrenia, that is a myth and it always has been a myth. LSD is only a possible trigger for the onset of symptoms due to the incredibly potent psychological effect, which is in of itself, a type of stress.
The effect of LSD does not last forever, within 24 hours Brian would have returned to normal. If he really did begin hearing voices a week after that experience, it suggests that the beginning of symptoms was caused by additional factors which have been mis-attributed to LSD.


I would also like to add that Brian does not speak like someone with schizophrenia. There is a particular manner which people with schizophrenia seem to speak with. I cannot describe what this is like specifically, but there is a shared character that is unmistakable. I have read a good deal written by authors who lapsed into madness in their later careers, and Brian has never sounded in an interview like them. He doesn't have that particular cadence, or dissociative element that seems common. He speaks normally.

I find it highly questionable that Brian ever experienced a schizophrenic break. Especially because he received no professional treatment for his symptoms until the late 70s (and possible for a few weeks in 1968), even then Landy was brought in primarily because of issues with addiction that were actively threatening Brian's life, and not because of schizophrenia. It seems more than a little unlikely that Brian experienced these hallucinations for over 10 years and managed so well, and even managed to continue using LSD.

Of course sometimes Brian makes it sound like he always had hallucinations. So who knows. The story seems to change every time it's told. Brian is clearly lying to someone, whether it's his doctors, his family, himself, or the media no one can say. In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

LSD and schizophrenia are still poorly understood, and there are gray areas of diagnosis, especially in the later part of the 60s when doctors were still coping with the impact of psychedelics. It's conceivable that Brian was able to mask parts of his dishonesty through appeal to these poorly understood areas. A few misreported symptoms, a mention of LSD use and a doctor dismissive of psychedelics could have led to some very dangerous consequences.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 10:15:08 PM by Fishmonk » Logged

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« Reply #90 on: May 28, 2012, 10:13:16 PM »


There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html
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« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2012, 10:20:27 PM »

In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

This is kind of where i draw the line on brian faking his mental illness.  No sane person would let themselves get done to them what was done.  Even if he was just faking what they said he had and going along, then there was still something wrong with him.  I do actually know what you're talking about when you talk about how schizophrenics talk.  It's sort of like their tone of voice is always like when someone says "oh i just remembered what you were talking about" or "oh yeah i remember that", but when they don't know what you're talking about.  Everyone has done it, but sometimes that's how their tone always is. To me anyway.

I actually get a hint of it in these interviews of brian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_n0ITu2qJU

Some people say he's so on the ball here, but I think there's something completely off about him, and it's really unsettling to hear him talk back then.  And I don't think he talks like this now either, sometimes he just sounds like an old man who's a bit slower than everyone else.  

« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 10:22:32 PM by Runaways » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2012, 10:21:05 PM »


There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html


"Armando Aguilar of the Miami Fraternal Order of Police told WSVN: 'What's happening is whenever we see that a person has taken all of his clothes off and has become violent, its indicative of this excited delirium that's caused by overdose of drugs.

'What's happening is inside their body their organs are burning up alive.'"

This is so ridiculous. Believe it or not there are books written about LSD by actual doctors, read "The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience" for some actual thoughtful, clinical observations of people under the influence of LSD. People who insist that LSD is really dangerous and that you can overdose on it and that it causes brain damage have likely never done it or read about it.

It sounds much more like he was using amphetamines.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 10:23:31 PM by Fishmonk » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2012, 10:28:20 PM »

If you 'fake' breakdowns for several days just to get out of doing something....uh...that's kind of crazy. Normal people do not pretend to be mentally ill to get out of unpleasant duties.

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« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2012, 10:31:18 PM »

In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

This is kind of where i draw the line on brian faking his mental illness.  No sane person would let themselves get done to them what was done.  Even if he was just faking what they said he had and going along, then there was still something wrong with him.  I do actually know what you're talking about when you talk about how schizophrenics talk.  It's sort of like their tone of voice is always like when someone says "oh i just remembered what you were talking about" or "oh yeah i remember that", but when they don't know what you're talking about.  Everyone has done it, but sometimes that's how their tone always is. To me anyway.

I actually get a hint of it in these interviews of brian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_n0ITu2qJU

Some people say he's so on the ball here, but I think there's something completely off about him, and it's really unsettling to hear him talk back then.  And I don't think he talks like this now either, sometimes he just sounds like an old man who's a bit slower than everyone else.  




Well what were his options? He could either take dangerous drugs (something he had already been doing willingly for years), or admit that for a decade he had been exaggerating his mental illness in order to get out of doing work. In the latter instance I can't even imagine the falling out that would have resulted within the band. 
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« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2012, 10:37:36 PM »

This seems to me like such a 60s mentality regarding mental illness. He may have manipulated people, but he did really have problems. Unfortunately he lived in the wrong era to get the help he needed then.
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« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2012, 10:43:07 PM »

It's hard to explain it to people who would accuse someone who has been drugged and been through the mill for 50 years of "faking it."  I've never had a conversation with Brian, but I've been in his presence a couple of times close enough to see his eyes and he doesn't seem that different than some of the homeless mentally ill people I've seen walking the streets of San Francisco, sorry.  He did a book signing in the early '90s in San Francisco, and he stared into space and needed someone else to turn the page to the part of the book he'd place his signature.  I guess you could accuse him of "faking" it because he didn't want to be there.  But he never seemed to blink and his gaze never wavered from whatever distant place he had it.  My sister went to the same signing half an hour after I did, and she's not a fan.  She went to get autographed copies of his book to give to me as a gift (she didn't know I already had been there) and for a Beach Boy freak friend of hers back east.  She said Brian reminded her of the people walking around on Market Street pushing shopping carts (as in homeless mentally ill people) more than a rock star.  As she put it, "The only thing scarier than seeing Brian Wilson is being Brian Wilson." She found him very disturbing and sad to be around, and like I say, it's not like she's a fan or cared that much about him.  It's just a vibe you pick up from being around someone, without their even speaking.  He improved when I saw him years later in concert, but there's something odd about his gaze.  He's also been said not to be schizophrenic, but bipolar with some symptoms of that disease, so supposedly he's not that bad.  But it's pretty bad.
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« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2012, 10:45:35 PM »

Sometimes the treatments for mental illness cause more damage than this illness itself.
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« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2012, 11:29:28 PM »


There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html

I didn't say LSD was harmless in the first place, so you are fabricating an argument that I did not put forth. In fact, I said that LSD can indeed be harmful specifically to those predisposed to schizoaffective disorders.

When someone is on "their LSD trip," as you put it, they are not likely to brutalize other people, and pointing to this laughable Daily Mail article shows that you have very little knowledge on the subject beyond misinformation. If my source had been Wikipedia, it would still be more reputable than The Daily Mail. However, a lot has been written in scientific journals about the clinical effects of LSD, which worked marvelously as a legal antidepressant until the counterculture began abusing it.

What's more, there have been clinical studies done on LSD that show it to be an effective treatment for alcoholism - more efficacious than 12-step programs, in fact. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120308224524.htm
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« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2012, 11:31:49 PM »

Quote
My sister went to the same signing half an hour after I did, and she's not a fan.  She went to get autographed copies of his book to give to me as a gift (she didn't know I already had been there) and for a Beach Boy freak friend of hers back east.  She said Brian reminded her of the people walking around on Market Street pushing shopping carts (as in homeless mentally ill people) more than a rock star.  As she put it, "The only thing scarier than seeing Brian Wilson is being Brian Wilson."

Well, part of the argument is that you have to look at Brian Wilson more like how you'd look at, say, eccentric royalty - he's wealthy, famous, and is surrounded by people that will indulge his whims. He's not like you and me, and he's allowed to get away with almost whatever he wants. If he doesn't want to give a sh*t about something, people will turn the page or sing a line for him. He doesn't get a lot of negative reinforcement like you or I would. As long as he stays on stage during a concert, for example, just about everything else is excused (and notice how he's never actually ran off on a concert). Add in decades of hard drugs of both the legal and illegal variety, and kooks like Landy telling Brian outlandish things constantly, and it's easy to see how Brian was made to be even further detached from reality than he otherwise would have been. You become your character, because in your character was an element of truth about yourself.

So, Brian can take a couple Xanax and maybe have a beer, on top of whatever else he's prescribed, and then go and do a signing or meet and greet and stare off into space. No one will say anything. Yes, he was naturally different, but if you watch Brian in his better late '70s interviews, he sounds like a grumpy person that's been in an environment detached from the real world for too long. It's not hard to understand.
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