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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: anazgnos on May 27, 2012, 10:22:36 PM



Title: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: anazgnos on May 27, 2012, 10:22:36 PM
http://www.collapseboard.com/everett-true/odd-comment-left-on-brian-wilson-blog-entry/

Weird situation.  As the author says, it's hard to know whether it is legit.  Worth a look all the same.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 27, 2012, 10:42:47 PM
If it all checks out, that could be one of the bigger myth-busting articles of recent years. I'm still digesting it, and it is pretty stunning information in light if what has been told for decades.

I'll second the "worth a look" description.  :)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 27, 2012, 10:49:46 PM
I've never understood the reverence Brian's "friends" from the '60s and '70s were held in.  Whatever terrible things Murry or Mike Love/Beach Boys or Capitol Records supposedly did to him, those people didn't sound any better and gave him a lot of support to take drugs, which made his problems that much worse.  Most of them also didn't seem to believe or understand anything about mental illness.  What "Daro" says about Marilyn Wilson is particularly pathetic.  He should be ashamed of himself, but he is 75, so I guess he's entitled to a senior citizen discount in the shame department.  


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 27, 2012, 10:57:02 PM
I've never understood the reverence Brian's "friends" from the '60s and '70s were held in.  Whatever terrible things Murry or Mike Love/Beach Boys or Capitol Records supposedly did to him, those people didn't sound any better and gave him a lot of support to take drugs, which made his problems that much worse.  Most of them also didn't seem to believe or understand anything about mental illness.  What "Daro" says about Marilyn Wilson is particularly pathetic.  He should be ashamed of himself, but he is 75, so I guess he's entitled to a senior citizen discount in the shame department.  

You got that impression from reading this particular article? Naturally it's taken with a grain of salt, but just the opposite is the impression I took away from Loren's comments about various folks who shared a family connection and according to the article plied Brian with drugs legal and illegal.

Once again it could be complete BS, all of it, but if it adds up it does change the narrative we've read for years.



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on May 27, 2012, 11:06:12 PM
Looks like a hoax to me - the mention of the 'salon' related directly to a BW book. Also, the mention of grammar school in a US contest is puzzling.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 27, 2012, 11:12:19 PM
Even if this is "Daro," the man who changed his name to be correct according to numerology, can anyone believe a word this guy says?  He says "Good Vibrations" was about his (Daro's) wife, Lynda, and that Brian was forced by the people around him to change the story to the song being about Audree Wilson, his mom.  Huh?  He also says that Brian's signature tune, "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" was about himself, Daro.  Not Brian.  He's trying to take away one of Brian most poignant signature pieces about himself.  Sure, Tony Asher wrote most of the words, but he supposedly wrote them about Brian.  Daro also takes credit for introducing him to both Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks.  Here's Daro's quote from his comments about GV and "Times":

All I can say in my defense is that it is universally understood that Brian’s best work followed in the next two years: ‘Pet Sounds’, ‘Good Vibrations’ (written about my wife, Lynda), and ‘Smile’, among others. (Incidentally, ‘I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times’ was written about me.) Mike Love hated all this new, modern work, and viciously attacked Brian about it again and again; for years, Mike employed teams of lawyers to harass him. He called ‘Good Vibrations’ “avant-garde sh*t”. Ask yourself, how you would have liked to have spent years on the road with (again, in my opinion), the detestable Mike Love?

Please keep in mind that Brian, to this day, is humble, self-effacing and eager to please others. He has always abhorred confrontation of any kind. He was unable to stand up to powerful villains like his father and Mike Love – not to mention Marilyn and a greedy herd of record business executives. Running away and pretending to be mentally ill was his only solution. He was fenced-in by selfish, narrow-minded mediocrities.

Because of this, Brian could not mention my name in public, or to any of them, except in ‘regretting’ his LSD experience. Brian’s mother, Audrey, became the inspiration for ‘Good Vibrations’. Just reading the lyrics will explode that myth. Also, that ‘I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times’ was about himself. ‘Not made for these times’? ‘What goes wrong’? It makes no sense.


BTW, Andrew, we do use the expression grammar school here in the states for the kindergarten through sixth grade years.  I'm not sure about the salon bit, but the fact that's in books may have originated with quotes from interviews with people who were around at the time, including Daro. The Gertrude Stein/salon thing is not that odd of a comparison, and some of the people involved were that pretentious.  It is a pretty well-laid out hoax if it is, though.  Not a very nice thing to do to Terry Satchen or Marilyn Wilson, whether it's a hoax or the actual Daro. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 27, 2012, 11:13:19 PM
Looks like a hoax to me - the mention of the 'salon' related directly to a BW book. Also, the mention of grammar school in a US contest is puzzling.


I've heard the term "Grammar School" used in the US since I was a kid, among people Loren's age it isn't uncommon that "elementary school" used to be called grammar school.

If he had said "primary school" as a US resident, I'd be very suspicious... ;D


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 27, 2012, 11:26:15 PM
Even if this is "Daro," the man who changed his name to be correct according to numerology, can anyone believe a word this guy says?  He says "Good Vibrations" was about his (Daro's) wife, Lynda, and that Brian was forced by the people around him to change the story to the song being about Audree Wilson, his mom.  Huh?  He also says that Brian's signature tune, "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" was about himself, Daro.  Not Brian.  He's trying to take away one of Brian most poignant signature pieces about himself.  Sure, Tony Asher wrote most of the words, but he supposedly wrote them about Brian.  Daro also takes credit for introducing him to both Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks.  Here's Daro's quote from his comments about GV and "Times":

I don't like doing this and casting doubt, but isn't there as much of a possibility that any of the statements above is true rather than false, or vice versa? The part about introducing Brian to Tony and Van Dyke...that makes sense. And it would make more sense if a story were concocted whenever they were asked how they met Brian to avoid having to say "There is this publicist guy in Hollywood who works with a lot of musicians, and he was also sitting on a stash of pure Owsley acid, great hash, and has great connections." See the Lovin' Spoonful for an example of what happened when someone did name names in this whole scene, not to mention the legal problems. :)

And if Daro knew Asher before knowing Brian, can we rule out the notion that maybe some of Tony's words were about Daro in some ways and Brian in others? It's a stretch, but this stuff does make you think about other possibilities.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 27, 2012, 11:45:31 PM
Even if this is "Daro," the man who changed his name to be correct according to numerology, can anyone believe a word this guy says?  He says "Good Vibrations" was about his (Daro's) wife, Lynda, and that Brian was forced by the people around him to change the story to the song being about Audree Wilson, his mom.  Huh?  He also says that Brian's signature tune, "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" was about himself, Daro.  Not Brian.  He's trying to take away one of Brian most poignant signature pieces about himself.  Sure, Tony Asher wrote most of the words, but he supposedly wrote them about Brian.  Daro also takes credit for introducing him to both Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks.  Here's Daro's quote from his comments about GV and "Times":

I don't like doing this and casting doubt, but isn't there as much of a possibility that any of the statements above is true rather than false, or vice versa? The part about introducing Brian to Tony and Van Dyke...that makes sense. And it would make more sense if a story were concocted whenever they were asked how they met Brian to avoid having to say "There is this publicist guy in Hollywood who works with a lot of musicians, and he was also sitting on a stash of pure Owsley acid, great hash, and has great connections." See the Lovin' Spoonful for an example of what happened when someone did name names in this whole scene, not to mention the legal problems. :)

And if Daro knew Asher before knowing Brian, can we rule out the notion that maybe some of Tony's words were about Daro in some ways and Brian in others? It's a stretch, but this stuff does make you think about other possibilities.

The biggest "possibility" and "myth-busting" I see in Daro's self-serving screed is that Brian is not mentally ill and has been malingering for years, just to get out of touring,etc.  According to Daro, and that's cruel.  A lot of mentally ill people don't see themselves that way and will discount their symptoms to other people, especially when it first starts occurring.  According to Daro's buddy, Tony Asher, Brian behaved oddly and had emotional outbursts when they were collaborating on "Pet Sounds."  None of that was to put on a show for the band or the record label.  Other than Daro's claim of Brian's not being mentally ill, I don't see any great revelations there.  Unless you count saying that Marilyn Wilson is "bovine," that his cousin Terry is the one responsible for getting Brian hooked on drugs, and that two of Brian's most lauded songs were written about Daro and his wife.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Jason Penick on May 27, 2012, 11:45:52 PM
I think it's legit, personally. Why would anyone go through the trouble to make that up?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 27, 2012, 11:55:09 PM
I think it's legit, personally. Why would anyone go through the trouble to make that up?

Adding to that point, what could be gained by pretending to be Loren Daro in 2012? The only gain might be someone's joy in watching Beach Boys diehards get all wound up over this. I'm just wondering why he chose what looks to be a lesser-known place on the web to post that statement, if clearing the air and his name were the goals.

It would have made one helluva magazine piece. :)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 27, 2012, 11:58:33 PM
I think it's legit, personally. Why would anyone go through the trouble to make that up?

I wonder if Tony Asher agrees with Daro's assessment of what those two songs are about, if that is Loren who posted?  Tony would know.  He not only wrote IJWMFTT, he also wrote the first set of lyrics for GV.  


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 28, 2012, 12:02:11 AM
Horrific bunch of garbage.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 28, 2012, 12:08:30 AM
A lot of it basically sounds like what Daro has said elsewhere. And while it might not have been Daro, I did read an interview from one of Brian's friends in the '60s that contained a less than flattering opinion of Marilyn, so that wouldn't come as a surprise, either. So whether it's the real Daro or not, the opinions are basically accurate - except for the songwriting bit. That could be either a prankster pulling our leg or Daro having false memories (not uncommon amongst old people that took lots of LSD).


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: GuyO on May 28, 2012, 12:19:18 AM
I think it's legit, personally. Why would anyone go through the trouble to make that up?
I'm just wondering why he chose what looks to be a lesser-known place on the web to post that statement, if clearing the air and his name were the goals.

I think this is real. Why choose to post a message there? Perhaps Loren at his age uses a select group of web sites, magazines, etc. for access to news. He's close in age to my grandfather. I'd imagine that if my grandfather would like to get something off his chest he'd contact a local news paper, instead of the currently hip nation-wide-read magazine.

I think there isn't a tremendous amount of information on Brian's group of friends ca. 1965/1966. But 'Loren' paints a picture in this article which has a lot of resemblance with 'images' I got from reading the book 'How Deep is the Ocean' and Loren's interview segments from the 'Beautiful Dreamer' doc.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: DonnyL on May 28, 2012, 01:10:31 AM
This seems totally legit.  In fact, I would say I'm fairly certain of it.

Of course, some of the anecdotes are a little off, but that's normal.

I think that us fans sometimes get a picture painted by the media, and when people who were actually there tell unfiltered stories, you get a sense of something more 'real'. I spent a lot of time with Durrie Parks in the late '90s, and while some of the facts were fuzzy, I felt like the 'stories behind the stories' revealed a truer sense of the '66-'67 period (and beyond actually).


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Shane on May 28, 2012, 01:46:35 AM
Here's one thing that might help reveal if this is a hoax or not.  Loren mentions he is "in my seventy-fifth year." 

Anybody know what Loren's birth-date is?  If it's true, he's a few years older than Brian... he sure seemed somewhat youthful in the Smile documentary interviews...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Loaf on May 28, 2012, 02:29:37 AM
It seems legitimate to me.

Is there anything in the story that we haven't heard before? I think the only "new" thing is IJWMFTT being about/influenced by Loren, but it's nice to hear it all from his angle. Sure, he could have been more diplomatic about Marilyn, but personally I don't have a problem with the man.



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: jeffcdo on May 28, 2012, 02:35:09 AM
What's here that's particularly revelatory?  That Brian may have at one point said he was "faking it"?  He also said he burned the SMiLE tapes.  Brian has a history of giving a short easy answer when he doesn't feel like pontificating on a particular topic.  What would you expect from Brian, a lengthy clinical explanation of his problems?!  Loren seems like somebody who felt accused and guilty for many years, and clearly doesn't have an understanding of mental illness (or hasn't followed Brian's subsequent life very closely, probably both).


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cabinessenceking on May 28, 2012, 02:43:31 AM
To put it this way, it is more believable than what Mike Love said in the Smile mini-episodes last November. That they (the group) were all astonished by the work. I think Dennis was the only one to support Brian back then, but he was not considered a worthy musician by the others as he had not written significant material yet, therefore his opinion was of no value. I think Bruce and Al were probably more on Mike Love's side, and ML obviously didnt like it. Brian has said so, why would he lie about it?

The text harshly criticises Marilyn and says that Brian had no love for her. I know about the part that he tried Marilyns sister but I always had the impression that they were affection towards each other.

Personally I do not hold this against ML 45 years after it happened, one has to move on. I bear a greater grudge against him for what happened with their hip credentials in the 70's and for making Brian do MIU. SIP is unforgivable but then again I don't really consider that a Beach Boys album. I give credit to him for doing these shows with Brian and the rest after all these years and problems.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 28, 2012, 04:40:38 AM
I don't know if this is legit but the first 8 paragraphs are very much like what Loren Darro told me in phone conversation some 10 or 12 years ago. Stuff like the 125 mics of Owsley and the fingering of Terry Sachen for instance were in our conversation and I don't remember that stuff being published anywhere publically. Anyways, whether this was posted by Loren or not I can't say but that first bit is the same things Loren told me save the bit about Brian faking to get off the road I don't remembering coming up.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Exapno Mapcase on May 28, 2012, 04:46:47 AM
I'm sure he's more like 65 - or maybe he's making that up!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 28, 2012, 05:00:45 AM
This article was very odd... This Darro guy seems just self-serving.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Lowbacca on May 28, 2012, 05:08:33 AM
His memories can be as off as anyone's at that age about things that happened half a century ago or especially about things Brian Wilson (..!) or anyone said. Would be nice to see VDP or Tony Asher chime in on this. I have a hard time believing the stuff he claims about the lyrics to GV and IJWMFTT (or that he wasn't really in love with Marilyn, for that matter).


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 28, 2012, 05:19:46 AM
The Marilyn angle also brings something rarely discussed... the story seems to basically go that Brian became a drug addict, went crazy, and became reclusive, thus killing his marriage.  But let's face it, Marilyn seems like an odd match for a post-LSD/mid-60s Brian. I've always found "In the Back of My Mind" very disturbing in the sense that Brian basically wrote a song foretelling all the trouble he was about to have in his marriage. It strikes me that Brian was being pulled in two directions - he was finding out who he really wanted to be, but at the same time, he wanted to still fit in and be the person all his loved ones expected him to be. People say that the Pet Sounds/Smile Brian wasn't the real Brian, but I look at Brian's decision to stop touring and hang out with his hip LA friends like him going off to college. He was young man meeting new people outside of his traditional social circles, figuring out who he was in the process. A lot of people came out of those situations as changed persons, and I think Brian was no different. It's telling that Brian has spent a good chunk of his time since the mid-60s passively aggressively avoiding his family.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Slow In Brain on May 28, 2012, 05:22:53 AM
Terry Satchen should be tracked down  :police: to counter the attack against his reputation. On beautiful Dreamer Daro looked and sounded dodgy.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 28, 2012, 05:30:28 AM
I mean, come on, Marilyn is like a real estate agent now. Brian Wilson, avant-garde pop composer, marries a real estate agent? Hmmm.....


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: The Heartical Don on May 28, 2012, 05:31:24 AM
I find his 'comment' on Marilyn repulsive enough to not bother one iota about the rest of the text.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: buddhahat on May 28, 2012, 05:34:01 AM
I never understood all the vitriol directed towards Loren Schwatz. He came across as slightly callous in the Beautiful Dreamer doc, but I think a lot of that is to do with the editing. What people continually forget is that Brian was an adult at the time and 100% responsible for his own actions.

If Loren has come forward to clear his reputation then more power to him, although I wouldn't be surprised if this was just another pointless hoax.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: EgoHanger1966 on May 28, 2012, 05:40:55 AM
It's hard to tell what is real and what is newly-created fiction in Loren's posting. For one, I doubt he chose to refuse Wilson pot and LSD when he asked for it. That sounds like something that Daro would say now to make himself look better. But....other things sound plausible. BW putting on the act of a nervous breakdown to stop touring. If Asher and Daro were best friends, it would also makes sens that IJWMFTT was written about him. I know we all want that to be a personal Brian song, but maybe that's all it is - a fan's want.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Zach95 on May 28, 2012, 06:00:06 AM
He spells Audree "Audrey"! Did anyone else notice that? That seems awfully odd, I mean he had to have known how to spell her name correctly.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: lance on May 28, 2012, 06:03:00 AM
Well...why? I don't know how to spell my best friend's moms name. I don't even know her name. But yeah, his comments on Marylyn* bug me. "Bovine". 


*yes, I know it's mis-spelled. Sue me.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: The Heartical Don on May 28, 2012, 06:11:14 AM
He spells Audree "Audrey"! Did anyone else notice that? That seems awfully odd, I mean he had to have known how to spell her name correctly.

Hm. A bit like the ongoing mis-spelling of 'Murry' as: 'Murray', or variations thereon.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 28, 2012, 06:29:20 AM
I mean, come on, Marilyn is like a real estate agent now. Brian Wilson, avant-garde pop composer, marries a real estate agent? Hmmm.....
Well he also married a used car salesperson...... ;)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 28, 2012, 06:35:38 AM
i thought it was weird that he said his wife was the inspiration for "good vibrations", then a paragraph later said audree was the inspiration for "good vibrations".  I'd be wary. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: William Bowe on May 28, 2012, 06:47:00 AM
Runaways, I believe he's saying that the story about Audree inspiring GV was concocted after the event, so as to write him out of the picture.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Kirk on May 28, 2012, 07:16:29 AM
Reading the post, regardless of whether it's real or fake, really makes me appreciate Danny Hutton. I was struck reading the "Darlin'" chapter in Mark's book how generous Danny is toward Marilyn---and how empathetic he is toward the position she was in at the time.  A lot of water under the bridge since the 70s (and the Leaf book), of course, but it's nice to see people who probably had reasons to be resentful during the darker years at being blamed for Brian's problems take a public position of "bygones." Granted, Brian and Danny are still friends, but whoever is calling Marilyn "bovine" seems unnecessarily cruel. She was a kid in those days!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: lance on May 28, 2012, 07:41:46 AM
Exactly. Maybe she just didn't like Brian's weirdo stoner friends, that's the way wives are, doesn't make them cows.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Loaf on May 28, 2012, 08:08:40 AM
i thought it was weird that he said his wife was the inspiration for "good vibrations", then a paragraph later said audree was the inspiration for "good vibrations".  I'd be wary. 

I'd read the article properly...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: aeijtzsche on May 28, 2012, 09:51:22 AM
Well, who wants to email the guy and get him over here--sounds like he wants to dialog?  We could find out pretty quick if he is who he says he is, at least.

lorrendaro@gmail.com


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 10:15:45 AM
Tried that a coupla times since the thread started.  Plus an alternate e-mail.  Seems he's now living in my neck of the woods...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 28, 2012, 10:25:47 AM
I think it's a pretty big deal to say Brian has made up his breakdowns.  Has anyone else ever brought this up?

i thought it was weird that he said his wife was the inspiration for "good vibrations", then a paragraph later said audree was the inspiration for "good vibrations".  I'd be wary.  

I'd read the article properly...

Yes, I read it wrong, as was already pointed out.  Care to finish your sentence? Or do you have trouble putting your snarky remarks together?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 10:29:33 AM
I wouldn't want a dialog with the guy, personally (should he ever choose to participate in this or other forums).  He's not going to change his opinion about how things were.  I do understand that he wants people to know he was a "serious" guy involved in the music industry, who held a series of steady day jobs, and wasn't some stoner drug dealer.  I just don't think he's particularly kind to Brian's family or to Brian, for that matter.   The person who could resolve whether those two songs were written about Loren and his wife would be Tony Asher, since Daro claims Brian can't be trusted.  But I don't think Asher would lower himself to responding to that even if he were asked, and Daro would refute what he'd have to say, anyways.

As for Brian "making up his breakdowns," yes, there have been other people who accused Brian of that.  Murry Wilson comes to mind.  In some ways, what happened on the plane can be described as a childish tantrum as much as a breakdown.  But it would be a stretch to say Brian was "making it up" in decades since, including a few stints in mental hospitals, which are hard to get due to the laws.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on May 28, 2012, 10:47:33 AM
I wouldn't want a dialog with the guy, personally (should he ever choose to participate in this or other forums).  He's not going to change his opinion about how things were.  I do understand that he wants people to know he was a "serious" guy involved in the music industry, who held a series of steady day jobs, and wasn't some stoner drug dealer.  I just don't think he's particularly kind to Brian's family or to Brian, for that matter.   The person who could resolve whether those two songs were written about Loren and his wife would be Tony Asher, since Daro claims Brian can't be trusted.  But I don't think Asher would lower himself to responding to that even if he were asked, and Daro would refute what he'd have to say, anyways.

As for Brian "making up his breakdowns," yes, there have been other people who accused Brian of that.  Murry Wilson comes to mind.  In some ways, what happened on the plane can be described as a childish tantrum as much as a breakdown.  But it would be a stretch to say Brian was "making it up" in decades since, including a few stints in mental hospitals, which are hard to get due to the laws.

The person 'claiming to be' Loren stated that the early 'break downs' were fake. But he did mention that:

"Brian’s descent was exacerbated by his excess intake of food, tobacco, cocaine, speed, downers, more LSD, as well as many other drugs given to him by, among others, Terry Satchen, as Brian related to me."




Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 28, 2012, 11:03:20 AM
Well, who wants to email the guy and get him over here--sounds like he wants to dialog?  We could find out pretty quick if he is who he says he is, at least.

lorrendaro@gmail.com

Does Charles Manson have an email address? He might be able to provide some interesting Beach Boys anecdotes as well!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: anazgnos on May 28, 2012, 11:04:40 AM
I wouldn't want a dialog with the guy, personally (should he ever choose to participate in this or other forums).  He's not going to change his opinion about how things were.  I do understand that he wants people to know he was a "serious" guy involved in the music industry, who held a series of steady day jobs, and wasn't some stoner drug dealer.  I just don't think he's particularly kind to Brian's family or to Brian, for that matter.   The person who could resolve whether those two songs were written about Loren and his wife would be Tony Asher, since Daro claims Brian can't be trusted.  But I don't think Asher would lower himself to responding to that even if he were asked, and Daro would refute what he'd have to say, anyways.

As for Brian "making up his breakdowns," yes, there have been other people who accused Brian of that.  Murry Wilson comes to mind.  In some ways, what happened on the plane can be described as a childish tantrum as much as a breakdown.  But it would be a stretch to say Brian was "making it up" in decades since, including a few stints in mental hospitals, which are hard to get due to the laws.

The person 'claiming to be' Loren stated that the early 'break downs' were fake. But he did mention that:

"Brian’s descent was exacerbated by his excess intake of food, tobacco, cocaine, speed, downers, more LSD, as well as many other drugs given to him by, among others, Terry Satchen, as Brian related to me."




Yeah, whatever else the guy is saying, he's not saying Brian isn't now, or never was, really ill.  He acknowledges that Brian became "pathological" and descended into full-blown addiction. 

There have been many discussions here about where the boundary is between how Brian "really is" vs. the possibility that he plays things up, or uses his supposed fragility or oddness to get out of obligations or avoid confrontation.  This seemed germane to all that.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: stack-o-tracks on May 28, 2012, 11:09:02 AM
Well, who wants to email the guy and get him over here--sounds like he wants to dialog?  We could find out pretty quick if he is who he says he is, at least.

lorrendaro@gmail.com

Does Charles Manson have an email address? He might be able to provide some interesting Beach Boys anecdotes as well!

Not quite email, but:

Charles Manson
B-33920
4A4R51
PO Box 3476
Corcoran, CA 93212-3476

Somebody drop him a line.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 11:11:39 AM
I think Hutton was worse than Loren Schwanz.  For years, Hutton use to snort big hog rails of coke with Brian.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: DonnyL on May 28, 2012, 11:30:05 AM
Well, who wants to email the guy and get him over here--sounds like he wants to dialog?  We could find out pretty quick if he is who he says he is, at least.

lorrendaro@gmail.com

I emailed him since it seems like he's in the bay area. Although I'm not sure it's a good idea to refer him to this place!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: buddhahat on May 28, 2012, 11:44:35 AM
I think Hutton was worse than Loren Schwanz.  For years, Hutton use to snort big hog rails of coke with Brian.

This is a good point. Demonizing Schwartz just seems like double standards to me. Hell, didn't Brian give one of his daughters smack or something?

I honestly think this whole perception of Schwartz/Daro stems from his demeanor on the Beautiful Dreamer doc. The context of his interview within the narrative of the doc & the way he laughs about Brian's trip makes him appear unsavory, but I doubt this reflects the reality of the man. I just think he was the victim of manipulative editing. Does anybody have any other 'dirt' on this guy besides him giving Brian his first trip, and him describing Marilyn as 'bovine'? I seem to remember AGD having a less than glowing opinion of him so maybe he could shed some light ...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 12:14:22 PM
I honestly think this whole perception of Schwartz/Daro stems from his demeanor on the Beautiful Dreamer doc. The context of his interview within the narrative of the doc & the way he laughs about Brian's trip makes him appear unsavory, but I doubt this reflects the reality of the man. I just think he was the victim of manipulative editing.

Agreed.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 28, 2012, 12:49:34 PM
I wish somebody would get him to come over here and post. Though I didn't agree with the tone of all his remarks, they all seemed pretty plausible.

The idea that Brian married Marilyn after being rejected by Diane is pretty telling, and we've talked about that "love triangle" (don't know what else to call it), a few times on this board.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SG7 on May 28, 2012, 12:59:25 PM
What's with the ax to grind for Marilyn?  ::)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 28, 2012, 01:03:43 PM
What's with the ax to grind for Marilyn?  ::)

Jealousy.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Custom Machine on May 28, 2012, 01:40:21 PM
While Marilyn has complained bitterly about the "hangers on" around Brian, which would most certainly include Mr. Daro, the comment Loren Daro makes here about Marilyn sure doesn't put this guy in a good light.

If I had to wager I'd say this was probably written by Loren Darro Schwartz, but the following scenario seems highly unlikely to me:

Several nights a week when I was off the road, I held in my home what could be termed a ‘salon’ – much like Gertrude Stein did in the Paris of the Twenties. Many young artists, musicians and celebrities of the period attended. Almost everyone smoked marijuana except Brian. I would not allow him to. A full year later, I finally relented and gave Brian a joint.

In other words, Mr. Daro is saying that he frequently invited Brian to his home, where almost everyone was smoking marijuana, but for an entire year there was one guest, Brain Wilson, whom Mr. Daro would not allow to smoke a joint, and that he apparently instructed his guests not to offer Brian a hit, a request to which they dutifully complied.  This scenario seems highly improbable to me.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 28, 2012, 02:03:08 PM
I don't know if this is legit but the first 8 paragraphs are very much like what Loren Darro told me in phone conversation some 10 or 12 years ago. Stuff like the 125 mics of Owsley and the fingering of Terry Sachen for instance were in our conversation and I don't remember that stuff being published anywhere publically. Anyways, whether this was posted by Loren or not I can't say but that first bit is the same things Loren told me save the bit about Brian faking to get off the road I don't remembering coming up.

I urge everyone to read what Cam wrote here, and try to weave it into this newly-posted article supposedly from Loren. I trust Cam Mott's research and history of actually searching out and talking with these people at a time when Smile and the history of it were nowhere near as "open" as the topics as they are now in light of the past 10 years. Listen to Cam!  :)

A few quick points from me: First, the one about Tony Asher. This info can be found in other books and sources, but it remains a fact that Loren and Tony Asher did go to school together and were friends. The anecdote about how Tony and Brian got together either starts at Western Studios as early as 63-64 when Tony was there recording advertising jingles for his agency and Brian was there making his music, and Tony introduced Brian to Loren. OR, it was a case of that meeting being a random, inconsequential thing and Brian connected with Tony during one of the meetings/gatherings being held at Loren's place, which led to Brian getting his number later and asking if he wished to write with him on the album that became Pet Sounds.

This is fact, there was a connection, we can and have established that. No B.S.

About IJWMFTT - Writers carry ideas around on notebooks, slips of paper, or even in their memory sometimes for years until they come out in the right song...it does not seem implausible that, having known each other and traveled in the same circles since they were teenagers, that an Asher lyric which he crafted around something with Loren or his life would later manifest itself in a song he was working on with Brian, and in the Pet Sounds context, a song which took on a meaning about Brian...of course it's speculation, of course one way to confirm would be to ask, but the *possibility* to me is not something to dismiss entirely because of who is saying it. It is very possible, same thing with perhaps lyrical themes or ideas that would come out in that original, more trippy lyric theme of the Pet Sounds "Good Vibrations".

I can't get out of my mind how many of that "inner circle" around 65-66 which became Brian's Smile crew and close confidantes have said there are issues they do not discuss and have not discussed, and how some versions of stories we have all heard are not exactly the way it played out. Look at an older Mark Volman interview for an example of this, mentioning a specific aspect of it that was nowhere to found in his writing for the Smile box set. And several prominent characters in that same Smile saga were regular visitors to and friends of...Loren. It could be said Brian gravitated to that scene and they in turn gravitated toward Brian and what he was doing musically and otherwise. Judge for yourself the results we have seen...

Re: Marilyn. Pure, unbridled speculation here, but hear me out. Several of the Smile crew, including Anderle, have gone on record saying Murry Wilson was waging a not-so-secret campaign against Brian's friends at this time, and drugs were one of the main issues. They said someone did in fact find surveillance devices in Brian's car, and was there not rumor about Murry hiring people to track Brian and his friends? What if it was implied Brian's wife had been involved in something which led to something else which caused some trouble for some of those friends, and it may have been connected to Murry's "War On Drugs" surrounding his sons which was less well-known than his active campaign to criticize Brian and get these newcomers out of his life and music?

Speculation aside, Murry was doing these things...perhaps some felt he had more help than should have been given?

I know, wild, WILD speculation but it is something to consider.

And don't think we know even 1% of what really happened during this time. We can't read interviews and books and even pretend to know anything close to what things were like on, say, a random night in May 1966 when Brian might either be hanging with Loren, eating on the Sunset Strip, watching Gilligan's Island on TV, playing a game of catch, or bowling with the Rovell family, or any normal daily activity which may have had some significance to something much bigger and which we simply will never know.

I wouldn't write it off so easily until we know for sure that the article itself can be authenticated.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 02:12:30 PM
Some of the people around Brian in the mid-'60s made critical remarks about Marilyn in various interviews and biographies.  I think it seemed odd for outsiders that a young, successful guy living in Beverly Hills would be married to a woman who looked and acted like a regular person.  I'm sure if Marilyn were some air-headed, tall, slim, beautiful model or actress type, they would have accepted her more, even if she did criticize his choice of company and use of drugs.  She also wasn't very hip.  There's some bio where one of his friends didn't like the fact she served things like steak at dinner.  Some of them were just snobby guys.  

As for Loren, he comes off as a delusional (in the literal sense) egomaniac by claiming no less than two songs were written about him and his wife.  Crazy people believe things are about them.  If that is Loren.  If IJWMFTT isn't about Brian per se, it might be Tony Asher writing about young people in general, including himself, just as the song "That's Not Me" is about young adulthood.  The entire album has that theme, and Tony has said that's what the project was about, as well as Brian. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: juggler on May 28, 2012, 02:17:38 PM
I'm sure he's more like 65 - or maybe he's making that up!

Huh, Brian is a few weeks away from 70.  And, IIRC, Tony Asher is 3 or 4 years older than Brian.  Loren could indeed be 75 (or at least turning 75 this year).


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: MBE on May 28, 2012, 03:06:48 PM
I think Loren comes off bad. He has a twisted view on things and seems to be trying to blame everyone but the few "hipsters" he was also friends with for Brian's troubles. Just to talk about Marilyn that way or even Mike (who wrote lyrics about Loren's wife?) is just sad. We weren't there but it's not so black and white ever in life.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 03:20:20 PM
Code:
My understanding was that Brian started smoking pot around the beginning of the Today sessions in late 1964. Marilyn found a shoebox with dope in it on the table in their apartment and confronted him. She and Murry were pissed at him. But I didn't think Brian dropped acid unti 1965. He said himself he wrote California Girls while on acid. And right around that time in early March of '65, if you listen closely to the Rhonda vocal sessions, you can hear Brian say, "Loren, can you get the guys?" So you know Loren was   around at that time.All I'm saying here is in the article that Loren says Brian did LSD as early as '64 - that seems a little early to me compared to what I've read elsewhere.

And yes, the undiluted acid that he took (Owsley) was very strong, especially to today's standards. But how many trips Brian took is still in question. He still seemed to function normally after '65 and '66. Unless he dropped it post '66, then I'm starting to agree with many on message boards through the years that have dropped acid who don't think the after-effects of the drug are what caused Brian brain damage. While it does react differently with various physical and psyques in different people, I'm just not sure anymore what the acid did to him. I've always thought that the acid is what messed him up (maybe even kicked in years after the fact), I just wonder now.

Brian wasn't forced to do acid (or pot). He really wanted to. And notice he hasn't blamed anyone for his drug problems but himself. He was a very willing participant, and Loren Schwartz wasn't the only source of LSD in L.A. at the time - if Brian didn't get it from him, he would have found it from somebody else. Like at a party on Cielo Drive....


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 28, 2012, 03:25:38 PM
Quote
I think Loren comes off bad. He has a twisted view on things and seems to be trying to blame everyone but the few "hipsters" he was also friends with for Brian's troubles. Just to talk about Marilyn that way or even Mike (who wrote lyrics about Loren's wife?) is just sad. We weren't there but it's not so black and white ever in life.

So if it isn't black and white ever in life, extend that thinking to Mr. Loren here and look at it from his aged hipster shoes. Sure LSD is "walking with the King" as Hunter Thompson called it, but emotionally traumatic experiences in your 20s tend to be the sort of thing that trigger schizophrenia and similar stuff. If it wasn't playing the riff of California Girls endlessly whilst fried on lysergic, it would've been something else. A breakdown, a breakup, etc. He wasn't exactly Mr Sane predrugs, so you can understand Daro feeling more than a bit pissed at authors and lazy journalists blaming him and his yes, hilariously dated pretensions at a Steinien salon for causing Brian to crack up.

... and you're telling me you don't understand the dynamic with conspiratorial new best friends/drug buddies and girlfriends/wives? This is S.O.P. -- he does look tacky decades later complaining about it, but it's not like he hasn't been attacked as well. And who knows what was said in private.

Fun albeit disturbing gossip... and yeah, a thoroughly mixed, decidedly un-black and white bag.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: MBE on May 28, 2012, 03:30:07 PM
Quote
I think Loren comes off bad. He has a twisted view on things and seems to be trying to blame everyone but the few "hipsters" he was also friends with for Brian's troubles. Just to talk about Marilyn that way or even Mike (who wrote lyrics about Loren's wife?) is just sad. We weren't there but it's not so black and white ever in life.

So if it isn't black and white in real life, extend that thinking to Mr. Loren here and look at it from his aged hipster shoes. Sure LSD is "walking with the King" as Hunter Thompson called it, but emotionally traumatic experiences in your 20s tend to be the sort of thing that trigger schizophrenia and similar stuff. If it wasn't playing the riff of California Girls endlessly whilst fried on lysergic, it would've been something else. A breakdown, a breakup, etc. He wasn't exactly Mr Sane predrugs, so you can understand Daro feeling more than a bit pissed at authors and lazy journalists blaming him and his yes, hilariously dated pretensions at a Steinien salon for causing Brian to crack up.

... and you're telling me you don't understand the dynamic with conspiratorial new best friends/drug buddies and girlfriends/wives? This is S.O.P.
I never have blamed him for it, Brian chose to take drugs and that's the end of it. Still I don't think putting others down makes you look better. Quite the opposite which is all I have ever said for those to this day try to make us think that the mean evil Beach Boys are trying to steal Brian's soul.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 28, 2012, 03:31:55 PM
I think Loren comes off bad. He has a twisted view on things and seems to be trying to blame everyone but the few "hipsters" he was also friends with for Brian's troubles. Just to talk about Marilyn that way or even Mike (who wrote lyrics about Loren's wife?) is just sad. We weren't there but it's not so black and white ever in life.

This could be true, but if you flip it over you'll have a situation where one guy is being blamed for the subsequent decades of problems, in some cases years after he was out of the picture, while other members of the family and the other circles of friends were there in the aftermath and saw the same man in question nearly die several times from abuse and over-consumption.

Not saying there is no blame to go around, but maybe the article is coming from someone who was made a scapegoat for decades for far more than actually happened.

I just realized too that proof of the blame/scapegoat issue can be found in that whitewash of a biography that was shown on ABC television in two parts.

The era of Pet Sounds and Smile was shown in such a false, cartoonishly untrue way yet some people might still believe some of the scenes shown there. Take note of the Loren/Van Dyke caricatures when watching. I could see where people portrayed that way might be just a bit upset even years later.



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 03:33:25 PM
Notice the spelling of "Terry Satchen" in the article. All of the label credits say "Sachen". Sachen helped write "Hang Onto Your Ego", didn't he? Supposedly a reference to an LSD trip? I read that somewhere. Wasn't that the reason the lyrics were changed? Mike Love objected and said something about it being Brian's drug music? I forgot.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 28, 2012, 03:33:53 PM
Yeah, but the other folks sure throw some acid and bile around too, huh? Nobody looks entirely classy here.

Whatever his influence, putting Tony Asher in his orbit sure makes up for a million barbs and bullsh*t!

If it's really him, somebody needs to poke him with a stick and ask some more questions if he's feeling chatty. Why not? If it's not him, let's see how Andy Kaufman it gets. To the email!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 28, 2012, 03:38:25 PM

I just realized too that proof of the blame/scapegoat issue can be found in that whitewash of a biography that was shown on ABC television in two parts.

The era of Pet Sounds and Smile was shown in such a false, cartoonishly untrue way yet some people might still believe some of the scenes shown there. Take note of the Loren/Van Dyke caricatures when watching. I could see where people portrayed that way might be just a bit upset even years later.



Beautiful Dreamer is just as much of a whitewash, but with different heroes.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Doo Dah on May 28, 2012, 04:11:55 PM
Not even close.

There's a big difference between bias and/or embellishment versus flat out character assassination.





Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 28, 2012, 04:15:47 PM
Code:
My understanding was that Brian started smoking pot around the Today sessions in late 1964. Marilyn found a shoebox with dope in it on the table in their apartment and confronted him. She and Murry were pissed at him. But I didn't think Brian dropped acid unti 1965. He said himself he wrote California Girls while on acid. And right around that time in early March of '65, if you listen closely to the Rhonda vocal sessions, you can hear Brian say, "Loren, can you get the guys?" So you know Loren was   around at that time.All I'm saying here is in the article that Loren says Brian did LSD as early as '64 - that seems a little early to me compared to what I've read elsewhere.

And yes, the undiluted acid that he took (Owsley) was very strong, especially to today's standards. But how many trips Brian took is still in question. He still seemed to function normally after '65 and '66. Unless he dropped it post '66, then I'm starting to agree with many on message boards through the years that have dropped acid who don't think the after-effects of the drug are what caused Brian brain damage. While it does react differently with various physical and psyques in different people, I'm just not sure anymore what the acid did to him. I've always thought that the acid is what messed him up (maybe even kicked in years after the fact), I just wonder now.

Brian wasn't forced to do acid (or pot). He really wanted to. And notice he hasn't blamed anyone for his drug problems but himself. He was a very willing participant, and Loren Schwartz wasn't the only source of LSD in L.A. at the time - if Brian didn't get it from him, he would have found it from somebody else. Like at a party on Cielo Drive....

This is a good post worth reviewing. The last paragraph is especially valid: No one forced him to do it. If we believe the story, Brian was *asking* for it. Now here is the scenario:

LSD was legal until well into 1966. The most pure LSD was coming from the "official" Sandoz labs, in liquid form which could be dispensed in specific doses, mostly at that time onto sugar cubes. Owsley enters the picture as one of those scary genius/mad scientist types who among many hats he wore was that of a chemist, audio engineer, etc. So he found a way to formulate LSD close to if not more pure than that coming from Sandoz (less frequently by the year), and along with chemist friends he set up labs where he would make it and sell it. Eventually he found a way to make it into a capsule or pill form containing a specific dose, and got equipment to make his own pills for sale to the various distributors who would buy his stuff. These are the origins of the names "Blue Cheer", "Purple Haze", "Orange Sunshine", "Blue Barrels", etc...it was the LSD in capsules being produced by Owsley, and the early capsules looked more like barrels due to the crude pill machine process, hence the name.

Sandoz LSD was the liquid kind found in vials and dispensed with an eye-dropper, and was beginning to dry up in areas like SF and LA when Owsley stepped into the scene. Owsley had liquid and pill forms coming out of the lab(s), his supply traveling back and forth in luggage going to various bus terminals to avoid detection, and the street issue of how much of a dosage to get the effect was still an issue and the results of too much or of the incorrect dosage could be tragic.

Back to 1965-66: It is still a legal drug, yet there are reports of houses being robbed around Hollywood because word got out there was a vial of Sandoz being kept there - typical celebrity/Hollywood Babylon stuff that would later play out in public with Sharon Tate. So you have a friend who wants to experience the drug, and is going around (supposedly) asking for it. As an entertainment biz kind of guy, an agent/press agent whatever, your job is to cater to the whims of your clients.

Watch Mad Men last night? Joan basically got pimped out to a car dealer in an attempt to win an account with Jaguar. It was a devastating episode, but that's all about large sums of money and power. Naturally.

So you have clients who like to drink and gamble, find them an after-hours speakeasy and casino in the back room. You have clients who enjoy hookers, find a brothel. You are an agent in LA in 1965, you have clients who smoke weed, you know where to get good weed - David Crosby knows. Clients who enjoy acid, you know where to get that too.

It's part of that game. Mad Men is fiction, Entourage is fiction, all the stories out there about the Sunset Strip scene - but the fiction comes from some measure of truth. An agent or rep wasn't necessarily a pusher if he/she knew where to get what a client was asking for, legal or not. More often not...

So your friend says I want to try LSD, you know what is good and bad and who is selling some potentially dangerous stuff around the area that isn't controlled, but you know where to get Owsley's "Blue Cheer" or whatever it was called at the time, and you know you can control the experience so your friend doesn't wind up wandering around naked in traffic at 1 AM...you know he'll try it no matter what, and you can possibly ensure a "safe" experience compared to what else may be out there under less controlled situations.

Do you do it?

It would also be naive to think the music circles especially in LA and even more in San Francisco were not saturated with the LSD influence, and the whole sub-culture surrounding it. Watch Monterey Pop, notice the "STP" auto fuel additive sticker on David Crosby's Gibson guitar...was Crosby advertising a fuel additive, or was he a gearhead? No way: STP was a potent form of LSD with a methamphetamine component which didn't turn out as well. STP was also connected to at least one of those friends murdered alongside Sharon Tate by the Manson clan. All of the songs, the sly references, the imagery...

It stands to reason someone in the Los Angeles music scene between 1964 and 1968 would have had ample opportunity to try LSD, if they were determined to try it, and would be able to find it easily. If the choice was your friend going to someone shady, or getting something known to be of a high quality - assuming they were going to do it soon no matter what, again which would you choose?

Disclaimer: I'm in no way advocating or taking sides or doing anything of the sort, but this past year I have read some very fascinating, very in-depth histories on these topics and specifically Owsley and the history of the drug back to Sandoz, especially how it tied into the mid 60's music world...as pure interest in history and the people/dates/places. nothing more or less than that.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on May 28, 2012, 04:27:49 PM


Is there anything in the story that we haven't heard before? I think the only "new" thing is IJWMFTT being about/influenced by Loren, but it's nice to hear it all from his angle. Sure, he could have been more diplomatic about Marilyn, but personally I don't have a problem with the man.

I'm with Loaf on this one. This is just more of Mike Love was bad/argued with Brian, Marilyn was actively trying to get Brian away from "the drainers", and Brian composed his most creative music while under the influence of drugs.

Have we ever seen any other stories about the meaning of IJWMFTT that would contradict Daro? Couldn't "Good Vibrations", the title, be a reference to Audree and dogs, but the true inspiration be a real-life lady?

I think Loren Schwartz first became "the villain" when David Leaf published his book 35 years ago? Maybe Leaf tried to give Schwartz, now Daro, a chance to explain himself in Beautiful Dreamer. Well, we know how THAT turned out. Daro probably has read/heard the flak, doesn't give a crap anymore, and just feels like talking. If you don't believe him, fine. Dismiss him. But, I'm not quick to call it a bunch of fiction either. We had this discussion recently on another thread. Who are you gonna believe anymore? Brian, Joe Thomas, Marilyn Wilson, Bruce Johnston, Loren Daro?

The one area where I completely disagree with Daro is Brian faking mental illness. As somebody else posted, Brian - no matter how good he could fake things - would've been exposed very quickly in a hospital setting if he attempted that. And, I mean, just look at the guy (Brian). Yeah, Daro can claim, if it makes him feel better, that the specific LSD dosage and consequent drugs that he furnished to Brian didn't cause the future problems. But, if I so much as contributed one drug to Brian - ever - and saw what subsequently happened to Brian, I would feel guilt, not defensive or dismissive.

Oh, BTW, Loren Scwartz received a Master's Degree from U.C.L.A. in 1960.

EDIT: The Diane thing...Didn't Tony Asher discuss in an interview his feelings about Brian's personal life, and saying something like (and I'm paraphrasing), "Why did he get married anyway..." Apparently Brian was telling Tony all kinds of things about his inner feelings about women in his life. And, is Diane younger or older than Marilyn? Marilyn met Brian in 1963 when she was 15 or 16. So, how old was Diane then? 13 or 14? Jeez....Whole lot of shakin' goin' on!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 04:35:39 PM
I can't find anything particularly laudable about Daro.  He was a pencil pusher in an entertainment agency, no matter how much of a psuedo-intellectual he was (and having an advanced degree doesn't mean he's not of the psuedo variety), or who he introduced Brian to (and there are stories that he didn't introduce Brian to either Asher or Parks, they all just happened to run in similar circles).  He never wrote or produced anything in the arts, he just hung out with people who did.  His ratting out Terry Satchen is an attempt to make Brian's family largely responsible for his problems, because  Terry is a cousin just like Mike Love is a cousin.  He doesn't deserve the attention he's gotten in the bios, or the documentaries, or "American Family," or this latest blog post.  He may be right that he's not that influential in the direction of Brian's life.  He mostly got attention because he was unintentionally humorous. If you change your name due to the influence of numerology, that can happen.  


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on May 28, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
I can't find anything particularly laudable about Daro.  

I don't think anyone is singing his praises or defending him. The discussion is basically centered around whether what he wrote is fiction or non-fiction.

True, Schwartz/Daro didn't write the music or play the instruments (although he was a folk singer in his earlier days), but he was AROUND during 1965-66, and that makes him a person of interest. That period is among the most fascinating, the most discussed, and whenever somebody from that period speaks, it will get attention. Just the fact - if it is a fact - that he was integral in hooking Brian up with BOTH Tony Asher and Van Dyke Parks makes him a part of Beach Boys' history.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 28, 2012, 05:11:31 PM
We've known Brian was interested in Diane before Marilyn for some time now. In fact, I don't think there's any "new" info here aside from the allegations that Brian was faking mental illness, which is a line of bullsh*t. I'm not gonna say the guy never exaggerated it to others in his life, I really don't know, but faking it outright? Come on.

I guess there's also the bit about who certain lyrics were about. I'd find it odd that Brian would lie for decades, saying "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" wasn't about himself, but about a friend. What purpose would it serve?

So yeah. It wouldn't be difficult for even one of us who've been attentive to information over the years to post this.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SG7 on May 28, 2012, 05:17:15 PM
If this was really him, I don't think this helps his image that much.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 05:18:15 PM
Right on, Guitarfool. And regarding Crosby, you KNOW what he was talking about with that STP sticker on his guitar. Saw CSN live a few years ago and he called himself a human waste dump. But after all the acid and other drugs he did, he isn't a vegetable, nor does he show signs of brain disfunctinality. He's still on top of his game with no evidence of schizo or other obvious brain abnormalities. Let me know if I'm wrong.

I also don't agree with Daro suggesting that Brian was feigning breakdowns and mental illness. Docs would have put that to rest quickly. Yeah, he wanted to stay home and write and with the reclusiveness in the late 60's and early 70's and recruiting Landy, well, the Wilson families know the truth about that. Brian was seeing doctors and admitted to hospitals as far back as 1968. Daro's comments here compromise the integrity of his article a little bit right there.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 28, 2012, 05:26:20 PM
nor does he show signs of brain disfunctinality. He's still on top of his game with no evidence of schizo or other obvious brain abnormalities. Let me know if I'm wrong.

No one of sound mind would wear their hair like that, especially in combination with that moustache.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 05:31:29 PM
nor does he show signs of brain disfunctinality. He's still on top of his game with no evidence of schizo or other obvious brain abnormalities. Let me know if I'm wrong.

No one of sound mind would wear their hair like that, especially in combination with that moustache.

(http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/david-crosby-2011-aftra-amee-awards-1y4nU4.jpg)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: b00ts on May 28, 2012, 05:34:45 PM
Brian was an adult and made his decision. Many of us twist ourselves in knots defending Brian. Not content to merely excuse Brian's actions, we squarely place the blame for their consequences on the shoulders of anyone within spitting distance.

It is common for mental illnesses such as Schizophrenia to manifest themselves in the early to mid 20's. A stressful experience of any kind can trigger this, whether a bad acid trip, bad experience with marijuana, divorce, etc. It is my understanding that people will schizoaffective disorders should not smoke pot (technically a mild hallucinogen), let alone trip on acid.

Let's go back to the mid-60's. Brian tells Loren he wants to do acid. If Loren Schwartz has tripped with a lot of people before, what would make him worry that Brian would have a nervous breakdown as a result? Tons of people drop acid and do not have nervous breakdowns.

LSD is not for everyone, especially someone who we now know (with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight) was predisposed to schizophrenia, or some similar disorder.

I agree that Loren did not come off well in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary, and his insults towards Marilyn and others drag down his argument in this piece. Loren could be a misunderstood guy, or a douchebag, or a combination of both, but his personal merits and foibles are wholly immaterial. He is trying to defend actions that need no defending.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 28, 2012, 05:37:30 PM
I have a suspicion that, post-breakdowns, maybe Brian might have told Loren the breakdowns were fake, out of shame/embarrassment. I can see how that might happen--not wanting to look damaged or small to a friend.

This is based on nothing at all, just a hunch. Just because that's what Brian (might have) told Daro, that doesn't mean it's true.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 05:40:23 PM
Fake post.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
No one of sound mind would wear their hair like that, especially in combination with that moustache.

Good point. The guy's obviously deranged...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 28, 2012, 05:46:13 PM
But........as Brian said himself:  "I did the acid and it tore my head off". 

So maybe he knows.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Jeff Mason on May 28, 2012, 05:51:45 PM
Not even close.

There's a big difference between bias and/or embellishment versus flat out character assassination.





Mike Love might argue that Beautiful Dreamer was character assassination.  Just as Brian Wilson might argue that the ABC miniseries was as well.  Neither side is looking innocent in this little exchange.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Autotune on May 28, 2012, 06:49:17 PM
Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 06:56:35 PM
Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.

Yeah, well Daro is a c*ck himself.  As are people who believe that anyone who's gone through what Brian Wilson has for the past fifty years is faking it.  Why do you bother being a Brian Wilson fan and hating Mike Love, if you think Brian is a liar and a phony about something like that?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 28, 2012, 07:00:21 PM
As for Loren, he comes off as a delusional (in the literal sense) egomaniac by claiming no less than two songs were written about him and his wife.  Crazy people believe things are about them.  If that is Loren.  If IJWMFTT isn't about Brian per se, it might be Tony Asher writing about young people in general, including himself, just as the song "That's Not Me" is about young adulthood.  The entire album has that theme, and Tony has said that's what the project was about, as well as Brian. 

Erm, John Lennon believed that both Hey Jude and Get Back were about him and Yoko. Paul McCartney believed that Nowhere Man was about him. Just because they're wrong doesn't mean that they are delusional and lacking credibility. I'm sure this happens frequently when you are close to someone and they write a lot of music and you see some personal connection to the lyrics.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 28, 2012, 07:00:57 PM
Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.

Yeah, well Daro is a c*ck himself.  As are people who believe that anyone who's gone through what Brian Wilson has for the past fifty years is faking it.  

Well, if you read Daro's comments, you know for certain that he doesn't think that.

That being said, I am sad to see his comments about Marilyn. She always seemed like kind of an ideal.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: aeijtzsche on May 28, 2012, 07:11:14 PM
Not even close.

There's a big difference between bias and/or embellishment versus flat out character assassination.





Mike Love might argue that Beautiful Dreamer was character assassination.  Just as Brian Wilson might argue that the ABC miniseries was as well.  Neither side is looking innocent in this little exchange.

Whoa, Jeff Mason.  What a delight to see that name again.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: oldsurferdude on May 28, 2012, 07:38:11 PM
Disturbing read. But I can identify with his comments about Brian's schizoid behavior. I always thought that Brian's odd behavior was/is manufactured to a certain degree.

There's a lovely comment beneath the Daro text. Makes you grateful for the internet.

Yeah, well Daro is a c*ck himself.  As are people who believe that anyone who's gone through what Brian Wilson has for the past fifty years is faking it.  Why do you bother being a Brian Wilson fan and hating Mike Love, if you think Brian is a liar and a phony about something like that?
Understandable question but whether it's b/s or not, he certainly nailed the Myke Luhv take on Brian's "modern music".


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 28, 2012, 07:38:58 PM
I don't know about this particular post but I found his contact back in the day through a public post looking for a coronet I think it was. He hasn't been hiding. He was very generous with his time and conversation and kindly to me.

I think he is being judged pretty harshly on a few out of context quotes in a documentary without any conversation.

Thanks Craig.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 28, 2012, 10:09:55 PM
There is some definite truth to the idea that Brian was never "really" mentally ill. In one interview Brian says he first started hearing voices one week after taking LSD. If that's true it suggests coincidence. I've posted this before, but that seems like a very atypical experience. The onset of schizophrenia is commonly linked to stressful events, "voices" begin giving commands and suggestions when someone is troubled and unable to cope with the demands imposed upon them by their lives. A psychedelic experience does not cause schizophrenia, that is a myth and it always has been a myth. LSD is only a possible trigger for the onset of symptoms due to the incredibly potent psychological effect, which is in of itself, a type of stress.
The effect of LSD does not last forever, within 24 hours Brian would have returned to normal. If he really did begin hearing voices a week after that experience, it suggests that the beginning of symptoms was caused by additional factors which have been mis-attributed to LSD.


I would also like to add that Brian does not speak like someone with schizophrenia. There is a particular manner which people with schizophrenia seem to speak with. I cannot describe what this is like specifically, but there is a shared character that is unmistakable. I have read a good deal written by authors who lapsed into madness in their later careers, and Brian has never sounded in an interview like them. He doesn't have that particular cadence, or dissociative element that seems common. He speaks normally.

I find it highly questionable that Brian ever experienced a schizophrenic break. Especially because he received no professional treatment for his symptoms until the late 70s (and possible for a few weeks in 1968), even then Landy was brought in primarily because of issues with addiction that were actively threatening Brian's life, and not because of schizophrenia. It seems more than a little unlikely that Brian experienced these hallucinations for over 10 years and managed so well, and even managed to continue using LSD.

Of course sometimes Brian makes it sound like he always had hallucinations. So who knows. The story seems to change every time it's told. Brian is clearly lying to someone, whether it's his doctors, his family, himself, or the media no one can say. In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

LSD and schizophrenia are still poorly understood, and there are gray areas of diagnosis, especially in the later part of the 60s when doctors were still coping with the impact of psychedelics. It's conceivable that Brian was able to mask parts of his dishonesty through appeal to these poorly understood areas. A few misreported symptoms, a mention of LSD use and a doctor dismissive of psychedelics could have led to some very dangerous consequences.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 10:13:16 PM

There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 28, 2012, 10:20:27 PM
In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

This is kind of where i draw the line on brian faking his mental illness.  No sane person would let themselves get done to them what was done.  Even if he was just faking what they said he had and going along, then there was still something wrong with him.  I do actually know what you're talking about when you talk about how schizophrenics talk.  It's sort of like their tone of voice is always like when someone says "oh i just remembered what you were talking about" or "oh yeah i remember that", but when they don't know what you're talking about.  Everyone has done it, but sometimes that's how their tone always is. To me anyway.

I actually get a hint of it in these interviews of brian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_n0ITu2qJU

Some people say he's so on the ball here, but I think there's something completely off about him, and it's really unsettling to hear him talk back then.  And I don't think he talks like this now either, sometimes he just sounds like an old man who's a bit slower than everyone else.  



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 28, 2012, 10:21:05 PM

There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html


"Armando Aguilar of the Miami Fraternal Order of Police told WSVN: 'What's happening is whenever we see that a person has taken all of his clothes off and has become violent, it’s indicative of this excited delirium that's caused by overdose of drugs.

'What's happening is inside their body their organs are burning up alive.'"

This is so ridiculous. Believe it or not there are books written about LSD by actual doctors, read "The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience" for some actual thoughtful, clinical observations of people under the influence of LSD. People who insist that LSD is really dangerous and that you can overdose on it and that it causes brain damage have likely never done it or read about it.

It sounds much more like he was using amphetamines.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: lance on May 28, 2012, 10:28:20 PM
If you 'fake' breakdowns for several days just to get out of doing something....uh...that's kind of crazy. Normal people do not pretend to be mentally ill to get out of unpleasant duties.



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 28, 2012, 10:31:18 PM
In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

This is kind of where i draw the line on brian faking his mental illness.  No sane person would let themselves get done to them what was done.  Even if he was just faking what they said he had and going along, then there was still something wrong with him.  I do actually know what you're talking about when you talk about how schizophrenics talk.  It's sort of like their tone of voice is always like when someone says "oh i just remembered what you were talking about" or "oh yeah i remember that", but when they don't know what you're talking about.  Everyone has done it, but sometimes that's how their tone always is. To me anyway.

I actually get a hint of it in these interviews of brian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_n0ITu2qJU

Some people say he's so on the ball here, but I think there's something completely off about him, and it's really unsettling to hear him talk back then.  And I don't think he talks like this now either, sometimes he just sounds like an old man who's a bit slower than everyone else.  




Well what were his options? He could either take dangerous drugs (something he had already been doing willingly for years), or admit that for a decade he had been exaggerating his mental illness in order to get out of doing work. In the latter instance I can't even imagine the falling out that would have resulted within the band. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SG7 on May 28, 2012, 10:37:36 PM
This seems to me like such a 60s mentality regarding mental illness. He may have manipulated people, but he did really have problems. Unfortunately he lived in the wrong era to get the help he needed then.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 10:43:07 PM
It's hard to explain it to people who would accuse someone who has been drugged and been through the mill for 50 years of "faking it."  I've never had a conversation with Brian, but I've been in his presence a couple of times close enough to see his eyes and he doesn't seem that different than some of the homeless mentally ill people I've seen walking the streets of San Francisco, sorry.  He did a book signing in the early '90s in San Francisco, and he stared into space and needed someone else to turn the page to the part of the book he'd place his signature.  I guess you could accuse him of "faking" it because he didn't want to be there.  But he never seemed to blink and his gaze never wavered from whatever distant place he had it.  My sister went to the same signing half an hour after I did, and she's not a fan.  She went to get autographed copies of his book to give to me as a gift (she didn't know I already had been there) and for a Beach Boy freak friend of hers back east.  She said Brian reminded her of the people walking around on Market Street pushing shopping carts (as in homeless mentally ill people) more than a rock star.  As she put it, "The only thing scarier than seeing Brian Wilson is being Brian Wilson." She found him very disturbing and sad to be around, and like I say, it's not like she's a fan or cared that much about him.  It's just a vibe you pick up from being around someone, without their even speaking.  He improved when I saw him years later in concert, but there's something odd about his gaze.  He's also been said not to be schizophrenic, but bipolar with some symptoms of that disease, so supposedly he's not that bad.  But it's pretty bad.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: DonnyL on May 28, 2012, 10:45:35 PM
Sometimes the treatments for mental illness cause more damage than this illness itself.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: b00ts on May 28, 2012, 11:29:28 PM

There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html

I didn't say LSD was harmless in the first place, so you are fabricating an argument that I did not put forth. In fact, I said that LSD can indeed be harmful specifically to those predisposed to schizoaffective disorders.

When someone is on "their LSD trip," as you put it, they are not likely to brutalize other people, and pointing to this laughable Daily Mail article shows that you have very little knowledge on the subject beyond misinformation. If my source had been Wikipedia, it would still be more reputable than The Daily Mail. However, a lot has been written in scientific journals about the clinical effects of LSD, which worked marvelously as a legal antidepressant until the counterculture began abusing it.

What's more, there have been clinical studies done on LSD that show it to be an effective treatment for alcoholism - more efficacious than 12-step programs, in fact. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120308224524.htm


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 28, 2012, 11:31:49 PM
Quote
My sister went to the same signing half an hour after I did, and she's not a fan.  She went to get autographed copies of his book to give to me as a gift (she didn't know I already had been there) and for a Beach Boy freak friend of hers back east.  She said Brian reminded her of the people walking around on Market Street pushing shopping carts (as in homeless mentally ill people) more than a rock star.  As she put it, "The only thing scarier than seeing Brian Wilson is being Brian Wilson."

Well, part of the argument is that you have to look at Brian Wilson more like how you'd look at, say, eccentric royalty - he's wealthy, famous, and is surrounded by people that will indulge his whims. He's not like you and me, and he's allowed to get away with almost whatever he wants. If he doesn't want to give a sh*t about something, people will turn the page or sing a line for him. He doesn't get a lot of negative reinforcement like you or I would. As long as he stays on stage during a concert, for example, just about everything else is excused (and notice how he's never actually ran off on a concert). Add in decades of hard drugs of both the legal and illegal variety, and kooks like Landy telling Brian outlandish things constantly, and it's easy to see how Brian was made to be even further detached from reality than he otherwise would have been. You become your character, because in your character was an element of truth about yourself.

So, Brian can take a couple Xanax and maybe have a beer, on top of whatever else he's prescribed, and then go and do a signing or meet and greet and stare off into space. No one will say anything. Yes, he was naturally different, but if you watch Brian in his better late '70s interviews, he sounds like a grumpy person that's been in an environment detached from the real world for too long. It's not hard to understand.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 28, 2012, 11:40:44 PM
I don't know if it's a generation gap or what, but I can't relate to some of the posters here.  Oh, sure, LSD is a great thing!  It will cure people of so many of their ills.  You say I'm "misinformed." Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

Or saying Brian is just a spoiled brat who does things to get his way.  Uh, okay, I give up.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 28, 2012, 11:41:20 PM
don't they put LSD into TVs to make them look better. Why would you drink it


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: AvanTodd on May 28, 2012, 11:48:51 PM
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?

Really??

As to the book signing, isn't it pretty well established that the events of that tour are what led to finally removing Landy from Brian's life?  So yeah, no sh*t he was out of it.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 28, 2012, 11:57:02 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 12:01:39 AM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 29, 2012, 12:13:47 AM
I use to be a moron.

About 30 years ago I was listening to "Dark Side Of The Moon" and after dropping a tab of Window Pane I saw elephants flying and landing on the tops of telephone poles.  That was good enough for me....


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: 18thofMay on May 29, 2012, 12:17:23 AM
I had a mate dropped one tab of LSD and never came back. He cannot function within the normal realms of society. Why do people defend it? Fishmonk we have been down this path before!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 12:18:18 AM

There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html

I didn't say LSD was harmless in the first place, so you are fabricating an argument that I did not put forth. In fact, I said that LSD can indeed be harmful specifically to those predisposed to schizoaffective disorders.

When someone is on "their LSD trip," as you put it, they are not likely to brutalize other people, and pointing to this laughable Daily Mail article shows that you have very little knowledge on the subject beyond misinformation. If my source had been Wikipedia, it would still be more reputable than The Daily Mail. However, a lot has been written in scientific journals about the clinical effects of LSD, which worked marvelously as a legal antidepressant until the counterculture began abusing it.

What's more, there have been clinical studies done on LSD that show it to be an effective treatment for alcoholism - more efficacious than 12-step programs, in fact. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120308224524.htm

There was a very effective trial done in Europe where PTSD was treated in Holocaust survivors using LSD. You should check out the book I mentioned a few posts up boots, it's a pretty down to Earth affair with psychologists making observations on common types of experiences seen during their experiments with LSD.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 12:26:30 AM
I had a mate dropped one tab of LSD and never came back. He cannot function within the normal realms of society. Why do people defend it? Fishmonk we have been down this path before!

But I don't disagree with you! Why the hostility? You have to be impartial 18thofmay, LSD isn't black magic. I have read more than one book on the subject, and some of them are bad or amateurish, but some of them are serious and written by professional psychiatrists. You are making an argument based on one case, and I am talking about the drug in a much broader context. Some prescription non-narcotic medicines can cause fatal reactions in a small number of patients, but you can't take those cases out of context.
LSD use is not without possible complications, but you're grossly overstating the risk. LSD does not cause people to become cannibals or stare at the sun, you cannot practically overdose on it and clinical studies have been done that showed no evidence of permanent physical or psychological damage in chronic users. These are just hard, impartial facts and are not just made up by people on wikipedia.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Aegir on May 29, 2012, 12:28:30 AM
I thought Mike Love wrote Good Vibrations, why would he write it about Loren's wife?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 12:31:43 AM
I thought Mike Love wrote Good Vibrations, why would he write it about Loren's wife?

Tony Asher did lyrics too. I imagine Brian came up with the kernel of the song, Tony Asher did lyrics, and then Mike Love rewrote them for the final version.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 12:32:03 AM
It is true that some people have done LSD multiple times, not just once, and didn't have super-negative effects.  Cary Grant comes to mind, who supposedly had multiple "trips" under a doctor's supervision.  But he was under a doctor's supervision. When many people have taken it, they were with people also taking it (or were alone) and taking LSD where they didn't know where it came from or what dose they were taking.  There were also bad reactions in medical trials with people who were labeled as having a pre-existing condition.  But since in some cases the doctors didn't know those people had a pre-existing condition, wasn't that taking a gamble to do that experiment?  It also seems that people who had "bad" trips, even without having any lasting damage, were labeled as being somehow responsible for that fact.  That's like expecting people to have control over their dreams at night. I'd have to wonder how LSD experiments in psychiatry pass ethical and scientific muster.  I'm not sure if they do.

That story about the guy in Miami is a real story, by the way.  It wasn't made up by the Daily Mail.  Whether the guy was on LSD or some other drug or combination of drugs still has to be confirmed by his autopsy.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: DonnyL on May 29, 2012, 12:36:47 AM
People who do drugs are morons.

Most people do drugs.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 29, 2012, 12:40:49 AM
Mcg... wow, just wow. It seems you enjoy being told what to think and making observations based on no personal experiential evidence. I will say that LSD probably isn't recommended for your average suburbanite. You have to be intellectually conditioned to enjoy it.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 12:42:47 AM
I thought Mike Love wrote Good Vibrations, why would he write it about Loren's wife?

Tony Asher did lyrics too. I imagine Brian came up with the kernel of the song, Tony Asher did lyrics, and then Mike Love rewrote them for the final version.

The guy speaks as though Brian wrote the lyrics to those two songs, though. His allegation that Brian wrote "Good Vibrations" about his wife when Mike, the guy who is claimed in the same post to not have hung around with Brian's "followers" (including Loren), wrote the lyrics kind of debunks the whole thing. Why would Loren or whoever is claiming to be Loren basically say that Brian wrote the song about his wife? Why would Mike be writing about Loren's wife, someone who he presumably didn't know very well, if at all?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 29, 2012, 12:43:13 AM
Steve Jobs took acid when he was young, and he still managed to be a productive citizen, after all.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 12:45:42 AM
Mcg... wow, just wow. It seems you enjoy being told what to think and making observations based on no personal experiential evidence. I will say that LSD probably isn't recommended for your average suburbanite. You have to be intellectually conditioned to enjoy it.

Pseudo intellectually conditioned is more like it.  


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mr. Cohen on May 29, 2012, 12:46:51 AM
 :3d


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 01:06:40 AM
I thought Mike Love wrote Good Vibrations, why would he write it about Loren's wife?

Tony Asher did lyrics too. I imagine Brian came up with the kernel of the song, Tony Asher did lyrics, and then Mike Love rewrote them for the final version.

The guy speaks as though Brian wrote the lyrics to those two songs, though. His allegation that Brian wrote "Good Vibrations" about his wife when Mike, the guy who is claimed in the same post to not have hung around with Brian's "followers" (including Loren), wrote the lyrics kind of debunks the whole thing. Why would Loren or whoever is claiming to be Loren basically say that Brian wrote the song about his wife? Why would Mike be writing about Loren's wife, someone who he presumably didn't know very well, if at all?

I just answered that in the post you're responding to. Tony Asher wrote lyrics for the song before Mike Love did. Loren explicitly states that he was friends with Asher even before Brian entered into the picture. Tony Asher has also said that Brian told him what theme to use in his lyrics or what emotion the lyrics needed to express. I think it's plausible that the two of them decided to do a song at least partially inspired by Loren's wife.
Mike Love came in at a later date and rewrote or revised the original lyrics. He didn't change every line, or change the "Good Vibrations" aspect of the song, he just made a few alterations. Compare some of the versions that are out there, the BWPS version, the early version from March, 1966 on TSS and many fan versions on SMiLE comps use the Asher lyrics.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Aegir on May 29, 2012, 01:11:33 AM
there is no similarity between the Love lyrics and the Asher lyrics aside from variations of the phrases "Good vibrations" and "I'm picking up good vibrations".


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: DonnyL on May 29, 2012, 01:16:09 AM
I think perhaps we should not take Mr. Daro's comments literally with regard to specific lyrics. It seems pretty clear that he was referring to the 'inspiration' for these songs.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 01:25:52 AM
there is no similarity between the Love lyrics and the Asher lyrics aside from variations of the phrases "Good vibrations" and "I'm picking up good vibrations".

To be honest I don't know the precise difference between the two sets off the top of my head. I know that the released version and the BWPS version both start off "I love the colorful..." but the second line on BWPS changes to "and she's already working on my brain". Which Mike changed to "and the way the sunlight plays upon her hair".
I think it's clear the combination of the "Good Vibrations" idea with a love song came from Brian and Asher, and the lines that were changed by Mike were done so while maintaining the core idea. You may be right that Mike changed more lines than I remember, I maybe spoke too hastily, but I think my general point still stands. Mike didn't invalidate the original idea of the lyrics with any rewrites he did, the core premise appears to have remained the same. And so far I don't see anything that greatly challenges the idea that the original lyrics (to which Loren may have been referring to in the first place) were about Loren's wife, and that the Mike Love lyric was still beholden to the original inspiration for the song in his modifications.  


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 01:37:37 AM
I thought Mike Love wrote Good Vibrations, why would he write it about Loren's wife?

Tony Asher did lyrics too. I imagine Brian came up with the kernel of the song, Tony Asher did lyrics, and then Mike Love rewrote them for the final version.

The guy speaks as though Brian wrote the lyrics to those two songs, though. His allegation that Brian wrote "Good Vibrations" about his wife when Mike, the guy who is claimed in the same post to not have hung around with Brian's "followers" (including Loren), wrote the lyrics kind of debunks the whole thing. Why would Loren or whoever is claiming to be Loren basically say that Brian wrote the song about his wife? Why would Mike be writing about Loren's wife, someone who he presumably didn't know very well, if at all?

I just answered that in the post you're responding to. Tony Asher wrote lyrics for the song before Mike Love did. Loren explicitly states that he was friends with Asher even before Brian entered into the picture. Tony Asher has also said that Brian told him what theme to use in his lyrics or what emotion the lyrics needed to express. I think it's plausible that the two of them decided to do a song at least partially inspired by Loren's wife.
Mike Love came in at a later date and rewrote or revised the original lyrics. He didn't change every line, or change the "Good Vibrations" aspect of the song, he just made a few alterations. Compare some of the versions that are out there, the BWPS version, the early version from March, 1966 on TSS and many fan versions on SMiLE comps use the Asher lyrics.

Hrm? Mike changed every line of the song sans the "Good, good, good, good vibrations" part in the chorus. I have to even wonder if Mike even heard Tony Asher's original lyrics. Also, not sure what you mean about different versions - there are only two sets of lyrics out there, Mike's and Tony's. If Tony wrote lyrics about Loren's wife, cool, but why would Mike? And why would Loren still say the song was "written about my wife" if it refers to unused Tony Asher lyrics instead of the known lyrics of the final version?

And Donald, I just don't know about that. He says "'I Just Wasn't Made For These Times' was about me." As someone else said, it'd be kind of shitty of him to take that song away from Brian. He also said "Good Vibrations" was "written about my wife". His assertion that "I Just Wasn't..." makes no sense as to being about Brian is a totally ridiculous claim, too.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 01:43:19 AM

To be honest I don't know the precise difference between the two sets off the top of my head.

Two totally different sets of lyrics. The BWPS uses Mike's opening line as the opening line for Tony Asher's lyric was either lost or never existed to begin with. Here are Mike's lyrics next to Tony's for comparison - absolutely nothing in common, really.

I love the colorful clothes she wears / ...
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair / And she's already workin' on my brain
I hear the sound of a gentle word / I only looked in her eyes
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air / But I picked up something I just can't explain
... / And I'm pickin' up...

Close my eyes, she's somehow closer now / I bet I know what she's like
Softly smile, I know she must be kind / And I can tell how right she'd be for me
When I look in her eyes / It's weird how she comes in so strong
She goes with me to a blossom world / And I wonder what she's pickin' up from me
... / I hope it's...

Both sets come down to it being a "girl song", true, but they're fairly different in other ways. Asher's lyric focuses more on wondering what this person's like, trying to interpret the signals they give off, that sort of thing. Mike's deals more with the senses while seeming pretty damn confident that this girl is into him. If Brian was directing these kids, saying, "This song is about Loren's wife and how I want to bang her," he must have given pretty different directions to both Tony and to Mike.

If we're talking inspiration alone, Brian claims it was his mother, at an early age, talking about the vibrations people give to others. It was never claimed to be how he thinks his mom is hot or something as Loren alleges in his post (which is an important detail, too - he's not talking about inspiration there, he's talking what the song is about, saying people think "Good Vibrations" is about Brian's mom when no one has ever said that. Thus it's pretty clear he is indeed saying those songs are about people, not merely inspired by them).

If you want to buy what he says about the story of the song being deliberately twisted to exclude Loren's wife at all, how about David Marks claiming the "vibrations" story about the dog was actually something his mother said to Brian, not Audree? Why do both he and Brian give a fairly similar story (albeit with a different mother) as to the song's inspiration when David wasn't even in the picture in 1966?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Loaf on May 29, 2012, 02:13:36 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 02:18:37 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.

"He was always bullied and intimidated by these people, and found that the only way he could get away from them was to feign mental illness – hiding in his bedroom with a pillow over his head, acting erratic and unstable, etc."

"He performed this act for so long, and with everyone in his life (with the exception of myself and a few trusted friends), that eventually he became pathological."

This seems to point much more toward accusing Brian of faking mental illness in the grand scheme than just the once on the airplane. This is what people are taking issue with.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 02:19:21 AM

To be honest I don't know the precise difference between the two sets off the top of my head.

Two totally different sets of lyrics. The BWPS uses Mike's opening line as the opening line for Tony Asher's lyric was either lost or never existed to begin with. Here are Mike's lyrics next to Tony's for comparison - absolutely nothing in common, really.

I love the colorful clothes she wears / ...
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair / And she's already workin' on my brain
I hear the sound of a gentle word / I only looked in her eyes
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air / But I picked up something I just can't explain
... / And I'm pickin' up...

Close my eyes, she's somehow closer now / I bet I know what she's like
Softly smile, I know she must be kind / And I can tell how right she'd be for me
When I look in her eyes / It's weird how she comes in so strong
She goes with me to a blossom world / And I wonder what she's pickin' up from me
... / I hope it's...

Both sets come down to it being a "girl song", true, but they're fairly different in other ways. Asher's lyric focuses more on wondering what this person's like, trying to interpret the signals they give off, that sort of thing. Mike's deals more with the senses while seeming pretty damn confident that this girl is into him. If Brian was directing these kids, saying, "This song is about Loren's wife and how I want to bang her," he must have given pretty different directions to both Tony and to Mike.

If we're talking inspiration alone, Brian claims it was his mother, at an early age, talking about the vibrations people give to others. It was never claimed to be how he thinks his mom is hot or something as Loren alleges in his post (which is an important detail, too - he's not talking about inspiration there, he's talking what the song is about, saying people think "Good Vibrations" is about Brian's mom when no one has ever said that. Thus it's pretty clear he is indeed saying those songs are about people, not merely inspired by them).

If you want to buy what he says about the story of the song being deliberately twisted to exclude Loren's wife at all, how about David Marks claiming the "vibrations" story about the dog was actually something his mother said to Brian, not Audree? Why do both he and Brian give a fairly similar story (albeit with a different mother) as to the song's inspiration when David wasn't even in the picture in 1966?

But none of these seemingly contradictory stories necessarily preclude one another. I think in these types of discussions we become too eager to flatten out the truth.

Brian had an experience when he was young where someone told him about dogs perceiving "vibrations" that people give off. Brian carried around that idea in his head for years and felt an urge to use it as the basis of a song. He and Tony Asher decided to do a song about Loren's wife, who may have had a very singular personality that Loren's friends all recognized. Brian suggested the "vibrations" idea, and Tony Asher wrote a song that combined the two themes. Something necessitated a rewrite later on, perhaps Brian was unsatisfied with them, or maybe Mike didn't like them, who knows. In any event Mike rewrote the song based around the thematic combination that was already present. The inspiration and chorus remained the same, but Mike put a slightly different spin on things.

Loren heard or read the original lyrics, or was told by Brian or Asher that the song was inspired by his wife. Over time details have been corrupted but, honestly, I don't really understand the insistence that these things are all mutually exclusive. In fact, maybe Brian had the lyrics changed because he felt the Asher ones were too brazen and would have made Loren uncomfortable about Brian's relationship with his wife. Who knows, the point is, the creative process is complex and any work of art bears the stamp of many ideas and impressions.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 02:34:07 AM
Obviously I have no idea what went on back then, but I'd consider Mike's lyrics much more "brazen" than Tony's if it were somehow known to Loren at that time that Brian was writing a song about his wife. Tony's lyrics were always pretty plainly stated, and this is no exception. Tony has even said that his lyrics weren't meant to be the final, just a working set of lyrics, but Mike ended up writing the final.

Overall, Loren's story here just has a lot of small holes in it, to me. It doesn't really add up in a lot of ways. Why would the entire world, including Tony Asher (who's given some pretty honest answers in the past) go along with "I Just Wasn't..." being about Brian, among other things Loren says in an attempt to claim everyone involved, even his own friends, wanted to bury him?

True enough, though, that "the creative process is complex and any work of art bears the stamp of many ideas and impressions".


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Lowbacca on May 29, 2012, 02:55:06 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.
I can only say that any account I've ever read/heard of Brian's first major nervous breakdown has all the signs of an actual nervous breakdown. If (part of) it was faked, it was quite a performance.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 03:01:41 AM
Obviously I have no idea what went on back then, but I'd consider Mike's lyrics much more "brazen" than Tony's if it were somehow known to Loren at that time that Brian was writing a song about his wife. Tony's lyrics were always pretty plainly stated, and this is no exception. Tony has even said that his lyrics weren't meant to be the final, just a working set of lyrics, but Mike ended up writing the final.

Overall, Loren's story here just has a lot of small holes in it, to me. It doesn't really add up in a lot of ways. Why would the entire world, including Tony Asher (who's given some pretty honest answers in the past) go along with "I Just Wasn't..." being about Brian, among other things Loren says in an attempt to claim everyone involved, even his own friends, wanted to bury him?

True enough, though, that "the creative process is complex and any work of art bears the stamp of many ideas and impressions".

I don't see that as being a hole, just one part of the truth that maybe has been overstated. I don't think anything said so far has really offered much proof that the post a hoax. Maybe it is, I'm not saying definitely either way, only that the information is plausible.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: The Heartical Don on May 29, 2012, 03:02:04 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.
I can only say that any account I've ever read/heard of Brian's first major nervous breakdown has all the signs of an actual nervous breakdown. If (part of) it was faked, it was quite a performance.

Same here. And no one can keep up doing 'fake breakdowns' or fake disorders of the mind for 45+ years without ever being exposed. Way too far-fetched.

I can't understand why someone should believe that no one in the long, long list of professionals that saw Brian for medical reasons should have detected his behaviour being of the theatrical/untrue kind.

Pish!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Slow In Brain on May 29, 2012, 03:36:48 AM
In Daros email Terry Satchen/Sachen is mentioned as the cousin from Chicagos' friend. Was the cousin Steve Kothof ? These dudes could throw some light  on what Loren is saying.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Jeff Mason on May 29, 2012, 04:20:09 AM
Not even close.

There's a big difference between bias and/or embellishment versus flat out character assassination.





Mike Love might argue that Beautiful Dreamer was character assassination.  Just as Brian Wilson might argue that the ABC miniseries was as well.  Neither side is looking innocent in this little exchange.

Whoa, Jeff Mason.  What a delight to see that name again.

Aw, thanks, Josh...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Jeff Mason on May 29, 2012, 04:28:25 AM
BTW one comment on this -- I believe that Peter Reum has discussed Brian's stay in an institution in the late 60's and getting put on Thorazine, and that people say his behavior changed radically after the Thorazine was administered (which is a known issue with that med).  Definitely think that the treatment could have made the problem worse, especially given that and the battery of meds Landy gave him.  Treatment could have made a not-quite-so-bad problem into a huge one.  Maybe.  We'll never know.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Loaf on May 29, 2012, 04:58:05 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.
I can only say that any account I've ever read/heard of Brian's first major nervous breakdown has all the signs of an actual nervous breakdown. If (part of) it was faked, it was quite a performance.

Same here. And no one can keep up doing 'fake breakdowns' or fake disorders of the mind for 45+ years without ever being exposed. Way too far-fetched.

I can't understand why someone should believe that no one in the long, long list of professionals that saw Brian for medical reasons should have detected his behaviour being of the theatrical/untrue kind.

Pish!

This is exactly what i was talking about! why are you talking about Brian faking illness for 45 years? Loren's post didn't say that.

And anyway... Loren says that Brian faked it because that's what Brian told him... who says that Brian told him the truth?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Loaf on May 29, 2012, 05:05:15 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.

"He was always bullied and intimidated by these people, and found that the only way he could get away from them was to feign mental illness – hiding in his bedroom with a pillow over his head, acting erratic and unstable, etc."

"He performed this act for so long, and with everyone in his life (with the exception of myself and a few trusted friends), that eventually he became pathological."

This seems to point much more toward accusing Brian of faking mental illness in the grand scheme than just the once on the airplane. This is what people are taking issue with.

How long was Loren in Brian's life? What time frame are we talking about here... 1964-1966? Into 1967? After that, Loren's accounts would only be second-hand. So, his "pathological" comment might refer only to the timeframe in which Loren knew Brian firsthand.

And again...how did Loren form his opinion of Brian's "faked" breakdown? Is that what Brian told him? Did Brian tell Loren the truth? What if Loren refused to give him LSD if he knew Brian had had a "real" breakdown? Would Brian have lied and said it was mostly a put-on?


There is so much we don't know, why are people taking issue with things that they have no idea even if the people involved are telling the truth and at what points? Why are people extrapolating a single internet post into "the grand scheme" of Brian's entire mental health picture for the last 50 years and beating him up over it?

The original post from "Loren" seemed credible in that it is backed up by other sources and didn't actually contain much "new" information. Why not assume that the man was telling the truth from his point of view? People seem to be attacking him for putting forward what he believes to be his honest viewpoint.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 05:17:06 AM
In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

This is kind of where i draw the line on brian faking his mental illness.  No sane person would let themselves get done to them what was done.  Even if he was just faking what they said he had and going along, then there was still something wrong with him.  I do actually know what you're talking about when you talk about how schizophrenics talk.  It's sort of like their tone of voice is always like when someone says "oh i just remembered what you were talking about" or "oh yeah i remember that", but when they don't know what you're talking about.  Everyone has done it, but sometimes that's how their tone always is. To me anyway.

I actually get a hint of it in these interviews of brian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_n0ITu2qJU

Some people say he's so on the ball here, but I think there's something completely off about him, and it's really unsettling to hear him talk back then.  And I don't think he talks like this now either, sometimes he just sounds like an old man who's a bit slower than everyone else.  




Well what were his options? He could either take dangerous drugs (something he had already been doing willingly for years), or admit that for a decade he had been exaggerating his mental illness in order to get out of doing work. In the latter instance I can't even imagine the falling out that would have resulted within the band. 

If he was faking it, then he probably would have had the sense to not get taken over by Landy and beg to go somewhere else. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 29, 2012, 05:19:43 AM
Sachen has passed away, not sure about Korthoff.

I don't know anything either way but my sense is Brian was certainly capable of "faking" to get his way though he seems to me to have usually just simply and plainly flat out refused to do that which he didn't want to do you had to deal with it.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 05:55:07 AM
The truth about these issues may come down somewhere in the middle. We've all heard about instances where Brian has faked symptoms to get out of difficult situations. Remember Melinda's story about Brian driving himself to the hospital and laying down on a gurney? As soon as Melinda mentioned "going to dinner," he was mysteriously fine. It doesn't mean he's not legitimately ill, but he may very well have faked some stuff in the 60s to get out of difficult situations.

Also, where Darro demonizes Marilyn, people's perceptions of others can become exaggerated if they only see one side. Don't you have friends who demonize others because they only see one side of them? Brian's 60s friends apparently didn't like Marilyn because she made it clear she thought they were bad for Brian. She probably wasn't nice to them for that reason. The other side is that she had a lot of responsibilities put on her at a young age, including protecting Brian, and had to put her foot down sometimes. But Darro saw her as someone who wasn't nice to him--even though in his words he was a friend to Brian.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on May 29, 2012, 05:59:51 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.
I can only say that any account I've ever read/heard of Brian's first major nervous breakdown has all the signs of an actual nervous breakdown. If (part of) it was faked, it was quite a performance.

Actually, I've seen two fairly recent interviews with Marilyn (I'm sorry, I don't recall where I saw them, maybe Beautiful Dreamer was one of them?), and she DISPUTES that it was actually a "beakdown" that Brian experienced on the plane when he decided to end his touring days. I'm really paraphrasing here, but she said something like, "I don't know, I wouldn't call it a breakdown, it was more like a panic attack..."


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Lowbacca on May 29, 2012, 06:15:10 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.
I can only say that any account I've ever read/heard of Brian's first major nervous breakdown has all the signs of an actual nervous breakdown. If (part of) it was faked, it was quite a performance.

Actually, I've seen two fairly recent interviews with Marilyn (I'm sorry, I don't recall where I saw them, maybe Beautiful Dreamer was one of them?), and she DISPUTES that it was actually a "beakdown" that Brian experienced on the plane when he decided to end his touring days. I'm really paraphrasing here, but she said something like, "I don't know, I wouldn't call it a breakdown, it was more like a panic attack..."
Which begs the question on what ground Marilyn bases her opinion. As fas as I know she's not a medical doctor.  ;D Speaking of which.. was there a proper diagnosis made on the 'plane incident'? If not.. well, then anybody could have their take on what might have happened actually.
All I know is that the accounts of the eye-witnesses seem pretty convincing to me. And Brian wasn't in no theatre club at highschool, either.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 06:18:43 AM
It's hard to explain it to people who would accuse someone who has been drugged and been through the mill for 50 years of "faking it."  

Since you keep repeating this falsehood, I suppose we need to keep repeating that he NEVER SAYS THIS!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 06:26:32 AM
Speaking of which.. was there a proper diagnosis made on the 'plane incident'? If not.. well, then anybody could have their take on what might have happened actually.
All I know is that the accounts of the eye-witnesses seem pretty convincing to me. And Brian wasn't in no theatre club at highschool, either.

Probably only Brian knows what happened on that plane. He went on and did another show after the incident, before flying home, right? Seems like a nervous breakdown would not render him able to do a show. A panic attack is quite frightening (and with very physical symptoms) but maybe doesn't have the same longterm effects as a nervous breakdown--the way I think of the two, anyway.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Lowbacca on May 29, 2012, 06:40:53 AM
Speaking of which.. was there a proper diagnosis made on the 'plane incident'? If not.. well, then anybody could have their take on what might have happened actually.
All I know is that the accounts of the eye-witnesses seem pretty convincing to me. And Brian wasn't in no theatre club at highschool, either.

Probably only Brian knows what happened on that plane. He went on and did another show after the incident, before flying home, right?
He pulled himself together and played the gig that evening, yeah.

Seems like a nervous breakdown would not render him able to do a show. A panic attack is quite frightening (and with very physical symptoms) but maybe doesn't have the same longterm effects as a nervous breakdown--the way I think of the two, anyway.
Well he could've done the show in either case, I suppose. Always depends on the level of what went down.
A nervous breakdown always has a history of stresses and strains, which Brian obviously had. But who knows.. may have been a panic attack, may have been a nervous breakdown, may have been something else entirely.. who knows. I just don't thing Brian actually "faked" it.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: rab2591 on May 29, 2012, 06:41:32 AM
Perhaps he did tell Loren that the breakdowns/panic-attacks were fake.....Maybe Brian wanted his closest friends to believe he wasn't insane.

Who hasn't lied (at one point or another) to keep a sense of normalcy in their lives?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Lowbacca on May 29, 2012, 06:45:55 AM
Who hasn't lied (at one point or another) to keep a sense of normalcy in their lives?
You're right. I never seriously considered building a BW shrine in my living room, for that matter.







 ;D


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: rab2591 on May 29, 2012, 06:48:05 AM
:lol


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 07:01:22 AM
How long was Loren in Brian's life? What time frame are we talking about here... 1964-1966? Into 1967? After that, Loren's accounts would only be second-hand. So, his "pathological" comment might refer only to the timeframe in which Loren knew Brian firsthand.

And again...how did Loren form his opinion of Brian's "faked" breakdown? Is that what Brian told him? Did Brian tell Loren the truth? What if Loren refused to give him LSD if he knew Brian had had a "real" breakdown? Would Brian have lied and said it was mostly a put-on?


There is so much we don't know, why are people taking issue with things that they have no idea even if the people involved are telling the truth and at what points? Why are people extrapolating a single internet post into "the grand scheme" of Brian's entire mental health picture for the last 50 years and beating him up over it?

The original post from "Loren" seemed credible in that it is backed up by other sources and didn't actually contain much "new" information. Why not assume that the man was telling the truth from his point of view? People seem to be attacking him for putting forward what he believes to be his honest viewpoint.

Doesn't "He performed this act for so long, and with everyone in his life (with the exception of myself and a few trusted friends), that eventually he became pathological. Brian’s descent was exacerbated by his excess intake of food, tobacco, cocaine, speed, downers, more LSD," give us a bit of a timeline, not to mention following it up with Landy points.  

If Loren's relationship with Brian was only in the mid-60s, and what he says about the 70s/Landy is second-hand then don't you think it's fair that people would have issue with him stating what he is about those time periods?

There are a couple words in that sentence that can sort of change the meaning depending on what he means, "descent" and "pathological".  It almost sounds like he's saying Brian kept up this act for so long that that became an illness itself (if he's using pathological by the definition).  And the "descent" seems to back that up.  
I think a timeline for what he's saying is: mid-60s Brian started faking breakdowns, which continued to the 70s when he started doing a lot more drugs and actually did lose his mind.  

Also, Loren pretty clearly says that Brian told him he faked breakdowns.  And y'know, I agree that I don't think it's fair to make Loren a villain here.  The only person to blame for Brian's drug use is Brian.  Loren seems to be giving his honest opinion on things, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  It's hard to know if Brian was lying to him about faking the breakdowns.  What if that was Loren's hold up on giving Brian drugs, so Brian just lied about it. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: The Demon on May 29, 2012, 07:07:45 AM
There is some definite truth to the idea that Brian was never "really" mentally ill. In one interview Brian says he first started hearing voices one week after taking LSD. If that's true it suggests coincidence. I've posted this before, but that seems like a very atypical experience. The onset of schizophrenia is commonly linked to stressful events, "voices" begin giving commands and suggestions when someone is troubled and unable to cope with the demands imposed upon them by their lives. A psychedelic experience does not cause schizophrenia, that is a myth and it always has been a myth. LSD is only a possible trigger for the onset of symptoms due to the incredibly potent psychological effect, which is in of itself, a type of stress.
The effect of LSD does not last forever, within 24 hours Brian would have returned to normal. If he really did begin hearing voices a week after that experience, it suggests that the beginning of symptoms was caused by additional factors which have been mis-attributed to LSD.


I would also like to add that Brian does not speak like someone with schizophrenia. There is a particular manner which people with schizophrenia seem to speak with. I cannot describe what this is like specifically, but there is a shared character that is unmistakable. I have read a good deal written by authors who lapsed into madness in their later careers, and Brian has never sounded in an interview like them. He doesn't have that particular cadence, or dissociative element that seems common. He speaks normally.

I find it highly questionable that Brian ever experienced a schizophrenic break. Especially because he received no professional treatment for his symptoms until the late 70s (and possible for a few weeks in 1968), even then Landy was brought in primarily because of issues with addiction that were actively threatening Brian's life, and not because of schizophrenia. It seems more than a little unlikely that Brian experienced these hallucinations for over 10 years and managed so well, and even managed to continue using LSD.

Of course sometimes Brian makes it sound like he always had hallucinations. So who knows. The story seems to change every time it's told. Brian is clearly lying to someone, whether it's his doctors, his family, himself, or the media no one can say. In fact Brian's problems post-Landy may have been seriously exasperated by his exaggeration or fabrication of symptoms which led to unnecessary treatments which caused permanent damage.

LSD and schizophrenia are still poorly understood, and there are gray areas of diagnosis, especially in the later part of the 60s when doctors were still coping with the impact of psychedelics. It's conceivable that Brian was able to mask parts of his dishonesty through appeal to these poorly understood areas. A few misreported symptoms, a mention of LSD use and a doctor dismissive of psychedelics could have led to some very dangerous consequences.

Great post.  It is funny to see how so many "fans" run to the drug explanation and never the child abuse.  At his worst, Brian speaks like someone who is very afraid of how people will react to what he'll say, probably from years of child abuse.  See here:

http://youtu.be/tn_0JNiqLio (http://youtu.be/tn_0JNiqLio)



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 07:15:22 AM

Great post.  It is funny to see how so many "fans" run to the drug explanation and never the child abuse.  At his worst, Brian speaks like someone who is very afraid of how people will react to what he'll say, probably from years of child abuse.  See here:

http://youtu.be/tn_0JNiqLio (http://youtu.be/tn_0JNiqLio)


Well that's how he talked in the mid 90s.  I still think all of his interviews from like 1976 show someone completely out it.  It's probably just because the drug use of that time, but he sounds totally unstable and scary to me.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 29, 2012, 07:23:48 AM
Why are some people deliberately misinterpreting Loren (if it was Loren)'s comments about Brian "faking" breakdowns?

Bearing in mind that Loren probably wasn't expecting a detailed textual analysis of what he wrote, he said that Brian faked a breakdown to get out of touring. We all know that Brian didn't like touring anyway. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brian played-up his nerves in order to get off the airplane and out of touring.

This does not equate to Brian has been faking mental illness for 50 years. This does not mean that Brian did not need mental health treatment in 1968, the first (?) reported instance of Brian being hospitalised.

Let's try to stick to what the man said in his post rather than extrapolating for our own personal agendas.
I can only say that any account I've ever read/heard of Brian's first major nervous breakdown has all the signs of an actual nervous breakdown. If (part of) it was faked, it was quite a performance.

Actually, I've seen two fairly recent interviews with Marilyn (I'm sorry, I don't recall where I saw them, maybe Beautiful Dreamer was one of them?), and she DISPUTES that it was actually a "beakdown" that Brian experienced on the plane when he decided to end his touring days. I'm really paraphrasing here, but she said something like, "I don't know, I wouldn't call it a breakdown, it was more like a panic attack..."

I haven't seen Marilyn's quote but that is my impression of what happened; a "panic attack" has gotten blown up to nervous breakdown status.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amanda Hart on May 29, 2012, 07:29:48 AM
We have to put the nervous breakdown thing in the context of the times, too. Even less was understood about mental illness and anxiety in the mid-'60s. I think we are getting bogged down in the difference between the terms "nervous breakdown" and "panic attack" using modern definitions, not taking into account that the people who were first hand witnesses to the event did not use these same definitions and probably had never heard of a panic attack at that point. "Nervous breakdown" was the best way for them to describe what they saw.

Based on the accounts of the time, I assume he actually had a panic attack. Like Amy B. said, a panic attack can be very physical and very scary to watch if you've never seen someone have one or experienced one yourself. For anyone else that's every had one, that first one especially is awful. Everything seems to point to this being Brian's first full on attack, you feel so out of control; you don't understand what's happening or how to get a handle on yourself. Even after you've rationally worked out whatever put you in the attack, the physical symptoms are still there. The fact that he played a show that night is pretty impressive, because even a minor panic attack is totally exhausting.

With these Daro comments, my guess regarding the faking the breakdown, is that Brian told him he faked it. Probably a lie because of the stigma attached to mental problems and because he was afraid it would make it harder to get drugs. He wanted to look cool in front of his hip friends, so he lied.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 07:43:00 AM

Based on the accounts of the time, I assume he actually had a panic attack. Like Amy B. said, a panic attack can be very physical and very scary to watch if you've never seen someone have one or experienced one yourself. For anyone else that's every had one, that first one especially is awful. Everything seems to point to this being Brian's first full on attack, you feel so out of control; you don't understand what's happening or how to get a handle on yourself. Even after you've rationally worked out whatever put you in the attack, the physical symptoms are still there. The fact that he played a show that night is pretty impressive, because even a minor panic attack is totally exhausting.


Yes, a panic attack isn't just someone saying, "Oh my God, I'm nervous," or "I can't do what I have to do because it's scary." It can involve chest pains, a racing heart beat, violent trembling, numbness, shortness of breath, and temporary loss of the use of limbs (like your legs feel like jelly). And though it's the result of stress or anxiety, it can seemingly come out of nowhere-- you can even wake up with one. I've had them before, and with the first one you think you're having either a heart attack, a stroke, or both. Then in 10 minutes it all ends, but you're certainly shaken up and definitely scared that it will happen again. So if Brian had that, it's nothing to sneeze at, and would be pretty hard to fake. And I would think someone witnessing it might have thought Brian was having a nervous breakdown and then maybe thought he was faking it when the symptoms were gone by the end  of the hour. And I could see Brian claiming later he had faked it because it doesn't seem very "macho" --or sane, for that matter.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 29, 2012, 07:45:32 AM
Wow, this one really exploded in a matter of 8 hours...

I know a lot of it gets lost, but it does seem like too much is being read into what the article actually says, and conclusions are being drawn which simply don't have any evidence in fact to back them up.

The song credit thing: Please go back to page 3 and read what is a possible/probable explanation for this. If someone can prove that there is no basis for this theory, it will be dropped, but until then consider that writers in any genre or format make notes *constantly* whenever inspiration strikes, and some of those notes can be carried around for years if not decades before finding the right outlet. Tony Asher and Loren knew each other since they were at least teenagers, and were friends - it is entirely possible if not plausible that something Tony wrote in, say, 1963 about something could later manifest itself when he was writing words to fit Brian's chord progressions and general themes.

I don't think it can be easily explained away or totally dismissed as fast as some are doing, and it would appear the basis of that comes from a dislike of Loren Daro rather than a look at the historical possibilities in light of hard evidence. Page 3 of this thread.



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: The Heartical Don on May 29, 2012, 07:45:43 AM
I think we've landed in far too speculative territory here, so I'll refrain from guesswork all the way back to '64 (which is nearly half a century ago, after all). In this type of debate, a consensual outcome is impossible, but rows and insults certainly are not.

Child abuse is a very bad, tragic thing, and it leaves scars for life. Emotional instability is often one of the results. I don't think that demarcating 'breakdown' and 'panic attack' is very fruitful, the two may co-occur, or flow into each other.

Combating the effects of child abuse with street drugs is also a bad, tragic thing; but the chance of it occurring in an environment like that of rock music, and where money is not a problem, is very high. It is a very unhappy method of self-medication, that can work for a limited time - until the terrible period announces itself that the beneficial effects on mood are, say, 10 minutes long, and the aftermath, marked by terrible withdrawal symptoms and fears, perhaps delirium, can last for days, a week, or more. By all accounts (I am thinking of Nick Kent's personal report here), Brian suffered mightily from the latter - and it would take a genius psychiatrist (so not one dr Landy) to separate the symptoms of trauma themselves from that of withdrawal.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 07:51:23 AM
Child abuse is a very bad, tragic thing, and it leaves scars for life. Emotional instability is often one of the results. I don't think that demarcating 'breakdown' and 'panic attack' is very fruitful, the two may co-occur, or flow into each other.


I think the reason we were attempting to demarcate the two was to determine how and why witnesses perceived Brian's behavior one way as opposed to another.
And again, it's all just speculation.
I find it interesting that a lot of the people who were in Brian's life in the 60s will acknowledge that Murry abused Brian but are more apt to link the CAUSE of Brian's symptoms with drugs than with abuse. I suppose it's partly generational...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: The Heartical Don on May 29, 2012, 07:56:55 AM
Child abuse is a very bad, tragic thing, and it leaves scars for life. Emotional instability is often one of the results. I don't think that demarcating 'breakdown' and 'panic attack' is very fruitful, the two may co-occur, or flow into each other.


I think the reason we were attempting to demarcate the two was to determine how and why witnesses perceived Brian's behavior one way as opposed to another.
And again, it's all just speculation.
I find it interesting that a lot of the people who were in Brian's life in the 60s will acknowledge that Murry abused Brian but are more apt to link the CAUSE of Brian's symptoms with drugs than with abuse. I suppose it's partly generational...

I agree. At least in Holland, so long ago, the whole concept of 'child abuse' did not carry the load it does nowadays. On the contrary, a 'corrective blow' was seen as part of a normal upbringing, as were other types of physical punishment. People did not think in terms of trauma for later life, and the psychiatric disorders that can result from handling kids thus.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on May 29, 2012, 08:09:12 AM
Yes, almost by process of elimination do you have to consider the effects of child abuse, or at least the overall negative effects of Murry on his son(s).

In 1964-66, the period that Daro was addressing, Brian was on top of the world. He married a woman he loved, he moved into a mansion, was a millionaire, had commercial and critical success with his art, had a number of friends, got out of touring, had the Wrecking Crew at his disposal, and basically lived life as he chose. If you had to find something that was "bothering" him emotionally, yes, the effects of an abusive father has to be seriously considered.

I wonder if Schwartz/Daro wasn't portrayed in such a negative vein in David Leaf's book, along with his self-inflicted wound in Beautiful Dreamer, if we wouldn't be so skeptical about what he wrote. Again, I go back to WHO we are to believe in the Brian Wilson story. Daro gave drugs to Brian, doesn't like Marilyn, didn't contribute to the music, and appears cocky - well, we can't believe him.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amanda Hart on May 29, 2012, 08:13:18 AM
Don's always got the right idea when it comes to stuff like this. Anxiety all comes down to fear, and fear played a large roll in Brian's life, mostly because of the abuse he suffered as a child. Your ability to think rationally is inhibited and your sense of self is screwed up. Drugs may have sped up or exaggerated Brian's anxiety and mental issues, but those seeds were planted before he started using drugs and probably would have manifested themselves at some point.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 29, 2012, 08:14:04 AM
For those interested in the historical context, some of the approved, sanctioned treatments for a variety of mental illness in the decades surrounding the 60's included electro-shock therapy and lobotomy, not to mention various clinically-approved drugs like the Thorazine mentioned earlier.

So there is a case where the learned, licensed medical professionals whom we trust with these issues and who dedicated their lives to the study and treatment of these issues of the mind, came to the conclusion well into the 70's in some countries that an acceptable treatment involved cutting away parts of the human brain.

Yet the application of a drug such as LSD under controlled dosages and a controlled environment is off-limits to even consider as a form of clinical, psychiatric or psychological treatment, even with reports of success dating back to the early 60's?

There is the conundrum and the ultimate conflict - it could be argued that the cure was in fact far worse than the disease. Understanding that doctors of psychiatry were not randomly going around to sanitariums and lobotomizing or electro-shocking patients at will, the fact that a Nobel prize was even awarded to a doctor who was an advocate of lobotomy as treatment is more than a bit scary to consider, not to mention the thousands who were subjected to it thinking they would be "cured", only to have their life destroyed. It was not too long ago in context.

And as far as abuse and overuse of anything: If you take too much of any medication, or drug, or recreational substance, the side-effects will be serious up to and including death. If you drink 4 urns of coffee in a matter of a few hours, the caffeine might cause heart failure, it's actually called a "caffeine overdose"...so is coffee a dangerous substance? If you drink massive quantities of vodka or whiskey or whatever, alcohol poisoning could kill you. Yet that is legal to adults, as is coffee. It's all about controlling the dosages and the old warning "use only as directed".

Just sayin'.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: The Heartical Don on May 29, 2012, 08:19:30 AM
Don's always got the right idea when it comes to stuff like this. Anxiety all comes down to fear, and fear played a large roll in Brian's life, mostly because of the abuse he suffered as a child. Your ability to think rationally is inhibited and your sense of self is screwed up. Drugs may have sped up or exaggerated Brian's anxiety and mental issues, but those seeds were planted before he started using drugs and probably would have manifested themselves at some point.

Thank you, Amanda. Yes, the seeds were planted, and from what I read, Brian and his brothers suffered particularly vicious forms of abuse (i.e. methods that truly were threatening and damaging the sense of self, and of being a worthy person).

Adolescents who don't have a history of abuse also are prone to experiment with drugs. But the thing is: these don't have that special effect of alleviating excess fear and depression, these simply aren't present in ill-making amounts. So for them, the first hangover often only results in the resolve to not let that happen again.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 08:29:31 AM
Well, I found this incredibly fascinating and want to know more -- so I initiated contact and got back a lengthy, rather charming reply. If it's a hoax, it's a ridiculously detailed one with a real master of the craft.

 I think it's time for another interview for another round of Rashomon. Anybody have any burning questions they'd like answered? Be ludicrously specific.



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: b00ts on May 29, 2012, 09:20:57 AM
I don't know if it's a generation gap or what, but I can't relate to some of the posters here.  Oh, sure, LSD is a great thing!  It will cure people of so many of their ills.  You say I'm "misinformed." Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

Or saying Brian is just a spoiled brat who does things to get his way.  Uh, okay, I give up.
Yes, I have been around many people on LSD, and I have done it myself. I have never known anyone whose life was ruined by LSD, although the same can't be said for alcohol, cocaine, and many other drugs.

I had a very close loved one die from alcohol poisoning (alcohol is a drug, so I hope you don't partake). If you were to link me to an article about how the resveritrol in wine can slow the aging process, do you think I would get all indignant about it? This isn't a generation gap, it is a propaganda gap. You believe what you want to believe.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: b00ts on May 29, 2012, 09:23:45 AM

There is a lot of misinformation out there about LSD, and it has become a bogeyman in Brian's life story. Loren Schwartz/Loren Daro/Loren Daro-Schwartz, regardless of his personal merits or follies, is a casualty of that narrative.

Also, lysergic acid does not cause brain damage, seep into your spinal fluid, or any of that.


Oh, yeah, we all know LSD is quite harmless, including when one is on their LSD trip.  The person that wrote the article about it in Wikipedia says it's harmless, so it must be true.  Here's a news story of the past couple of days of what one guy having an LSD trip did to another, resulting in his own death at the hands of the police (warning, graphic content, unless you consider a person high on LSD chewing a man's face off to not be graphic content):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151098/Naked-man-high-LSD-eats-face-victim-police-shoot-Miami.html

I didn't say LSD was harmless in the first place, so you are fabricating an argument that I did not put forth. In fact, I said that LSD can indeed be harmful specifically to those predisposed to schizoaffective disorders.

When someone is on "their LSD trip," as you put it, they are not likely to brutalize other people, and pointing to this laughable Daily Mail article shows that you have very little knowledge on the subject beyond misinformation. If my source had been Wikipedia, it would still be more reputable than The Daily Mail. However, a lot has been written in scientific journals about the clinical effects of LSD, which worked marvelously as a legal antidepressant until the counterculture began abusing it.

What's more, there have been clinical studies done on LSD that show it to be an effective treatment for alcoholism - more efficacious than 12-step programs, in fact. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120308224524.htm

There was a very effective trial done in Europe where PTSD was treated in Holocaust survivors using LSD. You should check out the book I mentioned a few posts up boots, it's a pretty down to Earth affair with psychologists making observations on common types of experiences seen during their experiments with LSD.
Very interesting, Fishmonk. I will have to check the book out. Between LSD and Psilocybin, science is discovering new uses for hallucinogens and it is pretty incredible, especially after all the propaganda that has been out there for so long.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 09:33:33 AM

Yes, I have been around many people on LSD, and I have done it myself. I have never known anyone whose life was ruined by LSD, although the same can't be said for alcohol, cocaine, and many other drugs.

I had a very close loved one die from alcohol poisoning (alcohol is a drug, so I hope you don't partake). If you were to link me to an article about how the resveritrol in wine can slow the aging process, do you think I would get all indignant about it? This isn't a generation gap, it is a propaganda gap. You believe what you want to believe.
[/quote]

People tend to get so worked up about LSD, maybe because it's so foreign to a lot of us and is linked (rightly or not) to a counterculture. The effects are mysterious. You don't hear about people going to rehab for LSD. You don't learn about the effects of LSD in school. If Brian had only ever taken LSD and no other drugs--and if he had a happy childhood and was otherwise well adjusted--maybe we could speculate that his later behavior had something to do with LSD, not knowing well enough the effects of acid. But this is someone who had so many other possible causes for his behavior-- amphetamines, alcohol, cocaine, and the known cause of anxiety and psychological issues-- child abuse. Looking at it that way, why DO people demonize Loren Daro? Tons of other people supplied Brian with drugs, and if Brian didn't get them from Daro and really wanted them, he would have found a way to get them.





Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: b00ts on May 29, 2012, 09:37:52 AM

Yes, I have been around many people on LSD, and I have done it myself. I have never known anyone whose life was ruined by LSD, although the same can't be said for alcohol, cocaine, and many other drugs.

I had a very close loved one die from alcohol poisoning (alcohol is a drug, so I hope you don't partake). If you were to link me to an article about how the resveritrol in wine can slow the aging process, do you think I would get all indignant about it? This isn't a generation gap, it is a propaganda gap. You believe what you want to believe.

People tend to get so worked up about LSD, maybe because it's so foreign to a lot of us and is linked (rightly or not) to a counterculture. The effects are mysterious. You don't hear about people going to rehab for LSD. You don't learn about the effects of LSD in school. If Brian had only ever taken LSD and no other drugs--and if he had a happy childhood and was otherwise well adjusted--maybe we could speculate that his later behavior had something to do with LSD, not knowing well enough the effects of acid. But this is someone who had so many other possible causes for his behavior-- amphetamines, alcohol, cocaine, and the known cause of anxiety and psychological issues-- child abuse. Looking at it that way, why DO people demonize Loren Daro? Tons of other people supplied Brian with drugs, and if Brian didn't get them from Daro and really wanted them, he would have found a way to get them.




[/quote]
Thanks Amy. This was basically my point in my first post on this thread. Loren Daro may be one thing or another, and he certainly comes off poorly in the post, but he cannot be blamed for Brian's actions.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 29, 2012, 10:01:12 AM
The first episode of what was called "Dragnet 1967", Jack Webb's return to television with his beloved crime drama after several years on hiatus, focused on LSD. The storyline was about a young man named "Blue Boy" - looking back on it with more history under my belt, maybe this was a reference to Owsley's 'Blue Cheer' and 'Blue Barrels' which had been the preferred dosage of LSD in Los Angeles around this time - and the episode ends with Webb's Joe Friday character finally tracking down Blue Boy and having to pull him out of a mound of dirt in a field somewhere, as his face is all painted up blue...

This kind of episode may have crossed into "Reefer Madness" territory as high camp for a certain audience, but at the time *this* kind of message was what many in America took to be the factual evidence of the horrors of LSD, especially as seen in and around Los Angeles and the mythology of the Sunset Strip during that time. Here's the thing: I love Dragnet, I enjoy Jack Webb's work, but it was at the time a very earnest and honest message they were delivering with that show. Interviews with Webb promoting Dragnet 67 back this up - it was serious, no matter how much kitsch it looks like today.

If you take the imagery of a young guy with a blue face freaking out on LSD and put it into millions of living rooms as the problems with abuse of the drug, that will probably stick in a lot of minds, and form opinions for decades to come, short of experiencing this firsthand.

I do agree with others posting here that it is not honest to lump LSD into the same category as Cocaine and Heroin, or even Ecstasy, meth, PCP, and the like. Any drugs are dangerous, but it has to be remembered too that there was a very focused and goal-oriented campaign against LSD and warnings about LSD which relied on data that was not always accurate or proven.

It is definitely not advocating its use by pointing out the history of it. And it is possible to see how successful the campaign was going from national magazines in the early 60's writing serious articles about the possible benefits of the drug to that night on television in 1967 when Blue Boy showed up having a freak-out on Dragnet. That's just one example.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 10:07:12 AM
What a wonderful post! I knew there had to be a link to Dragnet in here somewhere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xg7vTRBx0E

If only we had a picture of Brian with his face painted green.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 29, 2012, 10:11:14 AM
I wonder if Schwartz/Daro wasn't portrayed in such a negative vein in David Leaf's book, along with his self-inflicted wound in Beautiful Dreamer, if we wouldn't be so skeptical about what he wrote.

Maybe Lorren will show up and he can clarify. As I remember Loren was not contacted by David Leaf for the books. I hope I remember that right.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 10:17:11 AM
Didn't someone used to post here under the name Loren Daro? Was it verified whether that was him? I don't remember the types of things that person posted.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 29, 2012, 10:43:15 AM
Ontor-
Are you able to publish any of the reply you received?

As for questions:
- Are you able to recall any specific details of what Brian may have said during his trip, besides what we have seen in Leaf's doc?
- Did he go through more than one demeanor during the trip? Happy, sad, scared?
- Any particular insights he imparted during that time?
- Ridiculously specific: what was he wearing at the time?
- Did you discuss the event with Brian at later dates after it was over and there was time to reflect?

That's all for now...
onkster


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 10:48:37 AM
I'll ask and report back!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: aeijtzsche on May 29, 2012, 10:53:22 AM
Ontor-
Are you able to publish any of the reply you received?

As for questions:
- Are you able to recall any specific details of what Brian may have said during his trip, besides what we have seen in Leaf's doc?
- Did he go through more than one demeanor during the trip? Happy, sad, scared?
- Any particular insights he imparted during that time?
- Ridiculously specific: what was he wearing at the time?
- Did you discuss the event with Brian at later dates after it was over and there was time to reflect?

That's all for now...
onkster

I would ask what a typical day was like for Brian.  I think that's where history truly falls through the cracks.  History books can bring us closer to what it was really like, and stuff like the session tape can bring us really close.  But to really understand it, not only do we have to take all these different perspectives into account, Darro's, Murry's, Mike's, Brian's, Marylin's, etc, etc, but we also have to track the mundane, I think.  It's the mundane stuff that makes up life.  If the human body is mostly water, the human life is mostly mundane.

We have to know what it was like to go bowling with the Rovells.  We have to know what it was like to wait by Brian's front door to leave for a late-night snack while Brian hit the john.  We have to go with Marilyn to the grocery store.  We have to ride with Chuck Britz in his car while he goes to get gas on his way home from a session.  We have to wait with Tony Asher at the DMV while he gets his license renewed.  

Only then will we really get what's going on.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 29, 2012, 10:55:48 AM
We have to know if Brian ever enjoyed sneaking off to Pacific Ocean Park.

Especially if it's with Loren, or even a damaged stereo-repair guy from Texas.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 11:11:48 AM

I would ask what a typical day was like for Brian.  I think that's where history truly falls through the cracks.  History books can bring us closer to what it was really like, and stuff like the session tape can bring us really close.  But to really understand it, not only do we have to take all these different perspectives into account, Darro's, Murry's, Mike's, Brian's, Marylin's, etc, etc, but we also have to track the mundane, I think.  It's the mundane stuff that makes up life.  If the human body is mostly water, the human life is mostly mundane.

We have to know what it was like to go bowling with the Rovells.  We have to know what it was like to wait by Brian's front door to leave for a late-night snack while Brian hit the john.  We have to go with Marilyn to the grocery store.  We have to ride with Chuck Britz in his car while he goes to get gas on his way home from a session.  We have to wait with Tony Asher at the DMV while he gets his license renewed.  

Only then will we really get what's going on.


If only Brian had a reality show in the 60s.  :-D  "This week's episode: Brian and entourage accompany Tony Asher to the DMV. Hilarity ensues when Loren Daro slips some LSD to the woman behind the counter."


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 11:14:32 AM
Quote
If only Brian had a reality show in the 60s.  Cheesy  "This week's episode: Brian and entourage accompany Tony Asher to the DMV. Hilarity ensues when Loren Daro slips some LSD to the woman behind the counter."

Next week, it's a barrel of laughs when the boys pretend they actually read Siddhartha and try to expound on it intelligently under the influence of powerful hash!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 29, 2012, 11:27:13 AM
Quote
If only Brian had a reality show in the 60s.  Cheesy  "This week's episode: Brian and entourage accompany Tony Asher to the DMV. Hilarity ensues when Loren Daro slips some LSD to the woman behind the counter."

Next week, it's a barrel of laughs when the boys pretend they actually read Siddhartha and try to expound on it intelligently under the influence of powerful hash!

Cue the "impending doom" music in the background for the next preview teaser:

A haggard-looking Dennis walks in and says "Bri, man, you should have seen this group of girls I just picked up hitch-hiking, they're stopping by with a guy named Charlie later tonight..."

(tight shot of Brian's raised eyebrows, fade to black...)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 29, 2012, 11:37:22 AM
"Oh hi, Charlie...Dennis isn't home right now..."
"That's okay, just tell him this is for him..." Hand overs bullet, shot in close-up.
Laugh track: Ahhhh-hahahahahaha!
Off scared look of recipient: "Fear is just awareness, man!"
Laugh track: Ahh-hahahaha! (appreciative clapping)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Amy B. on May 29, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
"Oh hi, Charlie...Dennis isn't home right now..."
"That's okay, just tell him this is for him..." Hand overs bullet, shot in close-up.
Laugh track: Ahhhh-hahahahahaha!
Off scared look of recipient: "Fear is just awareness, man!"
Laugh track: Ahh-hahahaha! (appreciative clapping)

Laugh track on a reality show?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 11:39:54 AM
If you condense his post on that blog down to just one claim, which is that two songs were written about him and his wife, why do a few people on this board seem to believe him about that?  Or perhaps I'm not understanding.  There's a difference between believing it's possible, and believing it's an absolute fact that Brian wrote those two songs about Mr. and Mrs. Darro.  I also find it a little strange that these claims have never been published before, in spite of the fact that Lorren has spoken to multiple authors of Beach Boys biographies.  You'd think he would have bragged to those authors that he was the subject of those songs, not just making that claim for the first time just a few days ago on an obscure blog.

My problem with Mr. Darro is that if one looks at the CV/resume attached to his post, his overall honesty is questionable.  The guy sounds like a narcissist, conflating his credits greatly.  He claims he was not only the tour manager for a number of bands, he was the highest paid tour manager in the music industry.  Really?  How would he even know what fellow tour managers were being paid and talked to them all to compare notes (for example, he knows for a fact he was higher paid than the tour managers for Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd)?  What I find even more curious is I've never found reference to him being tour manager to at least some of the bands mention, including The Who.  I'm not sure he was ever a road manager for the Beach Boys, either, but perhaps he was before he got kicked out of the band's inner circle.  He goes on about the books he published, but both were self-published, "vanity" books.  One of his books claims to condense 150,000 English words down to the only 5,000 words you'll ever need.  For all his lavish claims, it seems like no one knew where he was for years, as though he disappeared off the radar screens and was hard to find.  Funny that people didn't know what happened to a guy who now claims to be so accomplished at so many things.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 29, 2012, 11:48:26 AM
I'm shocked....shocked...that anyone in LA, especially in the honorable business that is Music/Show Business, would lie or exaggerate on their resume.

onkster
(aka, best documentarian in LA/Hollywood!)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 29, 2012, 11:49:05 AM
"Oh hi, Charlie...Dennis isn't home right now..."
"That's okay, just tell him this is for him..." Hand overs bullet, shot in close-up.
Laugh track: Ahhhh-hahahahahaha!
Off scared look of recipient: "Fear is just awareness, man!"
Laugh track: Ahh-hahahaha! (appreciative clapping)

Laugh track on a reality show?


Sorry, I was thrown off by the "ominous music" thing earlier, and started imagining a sitcom...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 12:04:51 PM
If you condense his post on that blog down to just one claim, which is that two songs were written about him and his wife, why do a few people on this board seem to believe him about that?  Or perhaps I'm not understanding.  There's a difference between believing it's possible, and believing it's an absolute fact that Brian wrote those two songs about Mr. and Mrs. Darro.

Since he never once uses the term "fact" or "absolute fact" (those are your words, not his) then I am really unclear of the distinction. I guess my question is, how do you interpret whether people "believe something is possible" or "believe something is an absolute fact." Is it simply a matter of if you don't like the person, you assume they believe it's an absolute fact so you can more easily criticize them for something they, in fact, never said?

Again, because you are not really reading the responses on this thread, I will offer my other examples again. John Lennon believed that both Hey Jude and Get Back were written about him and Yoko. As far as I know, Paul has always gone on record as saying that Hey Jude was strictly about Julian. The fact that John Lennon believed that (whether he believed it was "possible" or an "absolute fact", I don't know) is not all that surprising to me, quite honestly, and furthermore, despite the fact the songs were not about him and Yoko, this does not serve to undermine Lennon's overall perception of that era.

Quote
I also find it a little strange that these claims have never been published before, in spite of the fact that Lorren has spoken to multiple authors of Beach Boys biographies.  You'd think he would have bragged to those authors that he was the subject of those songs, not just making that claim for the first time just a few days ago on an obscure blog.

My hunch is you wouldn't believe it regardless.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 12:14:35 PM
Rockandroll, I read your previous post.  I was referring to people who keep bringing up that Asher went to school with Darro, like they're trying to give more credence to Darro being right about those songs being about him and his wife. With absolutely nothing else to go on other than that single blog post.   The comparison to Lennon and McCartney isn't that salient, either.  You really think the relationship between John and Paul, that was much closer than any of the people involved here, is somehow relevant?  I don't.  Brian knew Darro for a year or two, tops.  Asher knew him a bit longer, but they weren't living together as Lennon and McCartney were at times, or collaborators in a business venture like the Beatles.   Darro is an egomaniac.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 12:22:39 PM
As for the claim that Darro never said those songs were about him for a fact, that he merely implied it was possible, and I'm the one who is putting words in his post just because I don't like him, here are Darro's words.  He seems to believe that those songs are about him in fact, not in possibility:

All I can say in my defense is that it is universally understood that Brian’s best work followed in the next two years: ‘Pet Sounds’, ‘Good Vibrations’ (written about my wife, Lynda), and ‘Smile’, among others. (Incidentally, ‘I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times’ was written about me.) Mike Love hated all this new, modern work, and viciously attacked Brian about it again and again; for years, Mike employed teams of lawyers to harass him. He called ‘Good Vibrations’ “avant-garde sh*t”. Ask yourself, how you would have liked to have spent years on the road with (again, in my opinion), the detestable Mike Love?

Please keep in mind that Brian, to this day, is humble, self-effacing and eager to please others. He has always abhorred confrontation of any kind. He was unable to stand up to powerful villains like his father and Mike Love – not to mention Marilyn and a greedy herd of record business executives. Running away and pretending to be mentally ill was his only solution. He was fenced-in by selfish, narrow-minded mediocrities.

Because of this, Brian could not mention my name in public, or to any of them, except in ‘regretting’ his LSD experience. Brian’s mother, Audrey, became the inspiration for ‘Good Vibrations’. Just reading the lyrics will explode that myth. Also, that ‘I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times’ was about himself. ‘Not made for these times’? ‘What goes wrong’? It makes no sense.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 12:23:55 PM
Rockandroll, I read your previous post.  I was referring to people who keep bringing up that Asher went to school with Darro, like they're trying to give more credence to Darro being right about those songs being about him and his wife. With absolutely nothing else to go on other than that single blog post.   The comparison to Lennon and McCartney isn't that salient, either.  You really think the relationship between John and Paul, that was much closer than any of the people involved here, is somehow relevant?  I don't. 

Sorry, I was unaware of your argument that the closeness between Loren and Brian was the hinge that makes his claims about I Just Wasn't Made and Good Vibrations more or less believable. Please point me to the point in the conversation where you said that.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 12:27:43 PM
As for the claim that Darro never said those songs were about him for a fact, that he merely implied it was possible, and I'm the one who is putting words in his post just because I don't like him, here are Darro's words.  He seems to believe that those songs are about him in fact, not in possibility:

All I can say in my defense is that it is universally understood that Brian’s best work followed in the next two years: ‘Pet Sounds’, ‘Good Vibrations’ (written about my wife, Lynda), and ‘Smile’, among others. (Incidentally, ‘I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times’ was written about me.) Mike Love hated all this new, modern work, and viciously attacked Brian about it again and again; for years, Mike employed teams of lawyers to harass him. He called ‘Good Vibrations’ “avant-garde sh*t”. Ask yourself, how you would have liked to have spent years on the road with (again, in my opinion), the detestable Mike Love?

Please keep in mind that Brian, to this day, is humble, self-effacing and eager to please others. He has always abhorred confrontation of any kind. He was unable to stand up to powerful villains like his father and Mike Love – not to mention Marilyn and a greedy herd of record business executives. Running away and pretending to be mentally ill was his only solution. He was fenced-in by selfish, narrow-minded mediocrities.

Because of this, Brian could not mention my name in public, or to any of them, except in ‘regretting’ his LSD experience. Brian’s mother, Audrey, became the inspiration for ‘Good Vibrations’. Just reading the lyrics will explode that myth. Also, that ‘I Just Wasn’t Made for These Times’ was about himself. ‘Not made for these times’? ‘What goes wrong’? It makes no sense.

Please highlight the "fact" words in there and then when you can't do that (because the word appears exactly zero times) be prepared to argue that everybody should always add the phrase, "in my opinion" to the end of every single sentence they ever speak in their entire lives. Most rational people however, understand that those words are always already implicit in every sentence, that no one ever speaks of things as if they are objective facts unless they actually outright say so.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 12:36:05 PM
Rockandroll, I read your previous post.  I was referring to people who keep bringing up that Asher went to school with Darro, like they're trying to give more credence to Darro being right about those songs being about him and his wife. With absolutely nothing else to go on other than that single blog post.   The comparison to Lennon and McCartney isn't that salient, either.  You really think the relationship between John and Paul, that was much closer than any of the people involved here, is somehow relevant?  I don't.  

Sorry, I was unaware of your argument that the closeness between Loren and Brian was the hinge that makes his claims about I Just Wasn't Made and Good Vibrations more or less believable. Please point me to the point in the conversation where you said that.

I'm not even sure what you're saying here.  Loren and Brian weren't that close, certainly not that much closer than the rest of the hangers-on around at that time.  If Loren wants to believe those songs were about him, what's to stop anyone else around at the time to claim the songs were about them?  I recall a story about Brian claiming Michael Vosse's wife was sending out telepathic messages to him and he thought she was a witch.  Isn't it possible that "Good Vibrations" is about Michael Vosse's wife and not Darro's?  

You're the one thinking that "in my opinion" is added to the end of everyone's sentences.  Most people don't have those qualifiers.  That's like saying that people who go around saying "I accept Jesus Christ as my savior" are silently implying "in my opinion" at the end of their sentence.  Maybe the word isn't "fact" so much as "belief," but for the believer, it is a fact.  Darro believes those songs are about him and his wife and his way of stating it without qualification makes it clear.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
I'm not even sure what you're saying here.  Loren and Brian weren't that close, certainly not that much closer than the rest of the hangers-on around at that time.  If Loren wants to believe those songs were about him, what's to stop anyone else around at the time to claim the songs were about them?

Nothing.

Quote
 I recall a story about Brian claiming Michael Vosse's wife was sending out telepathic messages to him and he thought she was a witch.  Isn't it possible that "Good Vibrations" is about Michael Vosse's wife and not Darro's?  

Yep. My point is that Loren believing those songs are about him do absolutely nothing to discredit him or his post, just as John Lennon believing that Hey Jude, Get Back, Too Many People, 3 Legs, etc. were about him didn't do anything to discredit him even though he was probably wrong.

Quote
You're the one thinking that "in my opinion" is added to the end of everyone's sentences.

It is. For instance:

Quote
 Most people don't have those qualifiers.  That's like saying that people who go around saying "I accept Jesus Christ as my savior" are silently implying "in my opinion" at the end of their sentence.  

They are not implying it, but the opinion is there nevertheless.

Quote
Maybe the word isn't "fact" so much as "belief," but for the believer, it is a fact.  Darro believes those songs are about him and his wife and his way of stating it without qualification makes it clear.

So, in other words, you'd be happier if he said, "I believe these songs are about him but other people believe that, say, Good Vibrations is about Audree." Oh, wait a minute. That's exactly what he did say.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 01:03:16 PM
I'm not even sure that post is the actual Darro,  because the timeline seems completely off.  He says that he gave Brian LSD in 1964, after being friends with Brian and hanging out with him at their homes and recording studios, and that Brian had been begging him for the entire three years to get him LSD.  Was he friends with Brian going all the way back to 1961 or 1962, when Brian was presumably still hanging out with surf and car people like Gary Usher? 

BTW, he says that other people believe that GV is about Audree because Brian lied to cover up that it was about Darro's wife.  That's a bit of a difference than saying that people are of a different opinion and that's okay.  He seems a little upset that people don't know that the song is about his wife because Brian has been lying all these years to avoid being associated with Darro and his wife.  If Darro has some kind of story about why he thinks the song is about his wife, or why the other song is about him, then it would have been helpful if he had offered those stories.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 01:07:52 PM
I'm not even sure that post is the actual Darro,  because the timeline seems completely off.  He says that he gave Brian LSD in 1964, after being friends with Brian and hanging out with him at their homes and recording studios, and that Brian had been begging him for the entire three years to get him LSD.  Was he friends with Brian going all the way back to 1961 or 1962, when Brian was presumably still hanging out with surf and car people like Gary Usher?

I'm not entirely sold on it either, though the quote from Cam Mott on page one makes me fairly close to being certain. I certainly wouldn't question the legitimacy of something just because a man in his mid 70s is fuzzy on dates from 50 years ago. I guess Lennon could have been an imposter too for saying that the Lennon and McCartney songwriting partnership ended in 1962.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Paulos on May 29, 2012, 01:08:29 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: endofposts on May 29, 2012, 01:12:34 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Paulos on May 29, 2012, 01:16:40 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Yes, I jumped on this thread just to say this. Or, I was reading and enjoying the thread when I became incensed by your deliberately provocative statement and felt compelled to respond. Oh, and my posts generally aren't very deep and thoughtful so I wouldn't get your hopes up.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 01:20:15 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Didn't you yourself make a sweeping generalization that cast an entire cultural group as morons?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 29, 2012, 01:22:03 PM
I also find it a little strange that these claims have never been published before, in spite of the fact that Lorren has spoken to multiple authors of Beach Boys biographies.  You'd think he would have bragged to those authors that he was the subject of those songs, not just making that claim for the first time just a few days ago on an obscure blog.

Just to be clear, ten years ago I'm pretty sure Lorren told me he had never talked to David Leaf, he had not been interviewed by anyone for publication. I'm pretty sure I remember that right because it was surprising at the time. Since then maybe someone has published something from interviewing Lorren [besides Beautiful Dreamer], I'm not sure. PAC maybe?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: pixletwin on May 29, 2012, 01:51:34 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Didn't you yourself make a sweeping generalization that cast an entire cultural group as morons?

There are a few Mormon forum members here who weren't to thrilled about being called morons. I have to agree that Paulos' comment was somewhat douche-like.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: bgas on May 29, 2012, 02:22:44 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Didn't you yourself make a sweeping generalization that cast an entire cultural group as morons?

There are a few Mormon forum members here who weren't to thrilled about being called morons. I have to agree that Paulos' comment was somewhat douche-like.

ahh jeez, he was making light  before he called the spade a spade; still, he obviously hit too close to home for those moronic Mormons reading at that point.  ( in my opinion, of course)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: anazgnos on May 29, 2012, 02:30:27 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Didn't you yourself make a sweeping generalization that cast an entire cultural group as morons?

Heck, he even called The Beach Boys morons!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: pixletwin on May 29, 2012, 02:33:55 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Didn't you yourself make a sweeping generalization that cast an entire cultural group as morons?

There are a few Mormon forum members here who weren't to thrilled about being called morons. I have to agree that Paulos' comment was somewhat douche-like.

ahh jeez, he was making light  before he called the spade a spade; still, he obviously hit too close to home for those moronic Mormons reading at that point.  ( in my opinion, of course)

Just out of curiousity, does "bgas" stand for Big Ass?  ::)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 02:44:56 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Didn't you yourself make a sweeping generalization that cast an entire cultural group as morons?

There are a few Mormon forum members here who weren't to thrilled about being called morons. I have to agree that Paulos' comment was somewhat douche-like.

So I assume you feel the post that Paulos was parodying where Mcg called people who do drugs morons was equally offensive?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: bgas on May 29, 2012, 03:29:29 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

 

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

You jump on this thread just to say this?  Nice guy.  I'll remember that whenever I read your thoughtful posts.

Didn't you yourself make a sweeping generalization that cast an entire cultural group as morons?

There are a few Mormon forum members here who weren't to thrilled about being called morons. I have to agree that Paulos' comment was somewhat douche-like.

ahh jeez, he was making light  before he called the spade a spade; still, he obviously hit too close to home for those moronic Mormons reading at that point.  ( in my opinion, of course)

Just out of curiousity, does "bgas" stand for Big Ass?  ::)

Nah, it's a class in drag racing, or was; but if it makes you happy to think it does, my world won't be impacted


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 29, 2012, 03:40:18 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 29, 2012, 04:57:58 PM
[Just out of curiousity, does "bgas" stand for Big Ass?  ::)

Hey!  Quit stealing my material!!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 05:08:15 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

hey hey let's not drag LDS folk into this!!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 05:19:47 PM
Quote
Have you even met anyone whose done LSD?  I have.  I even have a person in my immediate family who did it.  It didn't sound a positive experience to me. 

I've tripped. Have you? So what? Your mind is a mountain of propaganda.

People who do drugs are morons.

Apparently McG has clearly never had a cup of coffee or tea and definitely not a glass of Cola or can of Red Bull. Neither has he ever suffered from any ailment, illness or injury which would necessitate medication and has most certainly never tried the evil that is tobacco. McG also doesn't imbibe alcohol in any shape or form, I heard he's never even used one of those alcohol hand sanitizers lest some alcohol seep into his system and turn him into one of the 'morons' he so despises. He also had a friend who once walked past some kids smoking pot; three weeks later that same friend spontaneously combusted, coincidence?  

I can only conclude that McG is a Mormon. Sorry, I mean moron.

hey hey let's not drag LDS folk into this!!

Isn't that the stuff Spock did too much of in the 60s?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Jeff Mason on May 29, 2012, 05:31:53 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 05:34:23 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...
This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board. 

Oooohhhh not the Record Room people!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Jeff Mason on May 29, 2012, 05:50:10 PM
Well, just responding to some gripes made here about comments made on the Record Room board. 

Forget about that a second -- do you really think that the direction that this argument is going makes any sense whatsoever?  Or that it's accomplishing anything?  Is this the type of discussion you like?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 29, 2012, 05:51:03 PM
What do the Record Room people say about this board?  Tell me now so I can go over there and...........and..........well, give 'em the what for!!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 05:51:50 PM
Well, just responding to some gripes made here about comments made on the Record Room board. 

Forget about that a second -- do you really think that the direction that this argument is going makes any sense whatsoever?  Or that it's accomplishing anything?  Is this the type of discussion you like?

Not if the Record Room people don't think so.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 29, 2012, 05:54:27 PM
Can't we all stop fighting like the central park BBs of 1977. I think the smiley smile and record room are both awesome message boards with great posters.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Jeff Mason on May 29, 2012, 06:22:21 PM
Well, just responding to some gripes made here about comments made on the Record Room board. 

Forget about that a second -- do you really think that the direction that this argument is going makes any sense whatsoever?  Or that it's accomplishing anything?  Is this the type of discussion you like?

Not if the Record Room people don't think so.

Never mind.

 ::)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SG7 on May 29, 2012, 06:43:43 PM
What other band has fans that trash each other on other boards like we do? I bet the Beatles don't have these problems!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: doinnothin on May 29, 2012, 06:45:34 PM
This is why we can't have nice things!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: bgas on May 29, 2012, 06:58:02 PM
What do the Record Room people say about this board?  Tell me now so I can go over there and...........and..........well, give 'em the what for!!

maybe you could just go over there and give them my big ass, Mikie


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 29, 2012, 06:59:19 PM
Well, just responding to some gripes made here about comments made on the Record Room board. 

Forget about that a second -- do you really think that the direction that this argument is going makes any sense whatsoever?  Or that it's accomplishing anything?  Is this the type of discussion you like?

Not if the Record Room people don't think so.

Never mind.

 ::)

You can't argue with communists, Jeff.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 07:12:30 PM
Well, just responding to some gripes made here about comments made on the Record Room board. 

Forget about that a second -- do you really think that the direction that this argument is going makes any sense whatsoever?  Or that it's accomplishing anything?  Is this the type of discussion you like?

Not if the Record Room people don't think so.

Never mind.

 ::)

You can't argue with communists, Jeff.

 :lol


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 29, 2012, 07:13:31 PM
Can't we all just get along?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on May 29, 2012, 07:14:23 PM
And then it turns out the whole comment was fake


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 29, 2012, 07:22:03 PM
maybe you could just go over there and give them my big ass, Mikie.

Shiiiiit. Your big ass wouldn't fit over there, Bgas!!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Mikie on May 29, 2012, 07:24:31 PM
Can't we all just get along?

And who are you, Rotney King?   :-D


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 29, 2012, 07:33:09 PM
Can't you turn the other cheek bgas?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Bubba Ho-Tep on May 29, 2012, 07:39:50 PM
This is the correct sequence for Smile:

Prayer
H&V
Wonderful
Holidays
Cabinessence
Fire
Child is Father of the Man

Good Vibrations
Vegetables
Look
Wind Chimes
Do You Like Worms
Surfs Up



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 07:43:09 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.

I don't think you have to say something like that, I like posting back and forth and I know others do too.  These people can talk however they want to, usually someone gets put in their place if they say something ridiculous and usually there's an apology somewhere.  I'm not sure why you think the RR is important enough that we have to care about what they think about this board, if posts on the RR wanna call people here "clueless morons" and that "they wanna stomp their faces until death" then go right ahead.  That's pretty silly too. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on May 29, 2012, 07:52:18 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.

Surely you can't critique pointless silly fights/comments on these boards with Spaceman as a main RR contributer   :lol

Meh, it's a meaningless entry in an apparently long-running petty gradeschool message board ping pong competition. There's a thread about this thread going on over there right now talking about our big mouths and small brains. It's infantile and what's worse is they seem to look for just about any excuse to "prove" how superior "they" are to "us". I don't particularly care - board allegiance is a sad thing - but it is an explanation for a few of the messages here.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 08:04:40 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.

Surely you can't critique pointless silly fights/comments on these boards with Spaceman as a main RR contributer   :lol

Meh, it's a meaningless entry in an apparently long-running petty gradeschool message board ping pong competition. There's a thread about this thread going on over there right now talking about our big mouths and small brains. It's infantile and what's worse is they seem to look for just about any excuse to "prove" how superior "they" are to "us". I don't particularly care - board allegiance is a sad thing - but it is an explanation for a few of the messages here.

Yeah, i edited my post after you quoted me.  But whatever, it really doesn't matter what anyone says about another on here.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 29, 2012, 08:46:52 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.

Surely you can't critique pointless silly fights/comments on these boards with Spaceman as a main RR contributer   :lol

Meh, it's a meaningless entry in an apparently long-running petty gradeschool message board ping pong competition. There's a thread about this thread going on over there right now talking about our big mouths and small brains. It's infantile and what's worse is they seem to look for just about any excuse to "prove" how superior "they" are to "us". I don't particularly care - board allegiance is a sad thing - but it is an explanation for a few of the messages here.

It isn't long-running. That thread is about the same subject as this one, someone just mentioned the discussion about it over here, and that became a part of the conversation. The folks that want to speak negatively about things that are said on this board don't have to look far or obsess over it to find what they dislike. Anyone casting aspersion on that type of behavior here is a hypocrite, that same thing has gone on in several threads here.
Personally, I don't care much about any of it any more really, because the two boards aren't even attempting to do the same thing. This is a conversation board about The Beach Boys that angles towards the fan-casual. The "Beach Boys" section of The Record Room is a splinter section that at times has gone bereft of posts for months at a time. What that place is mainly about is lengthy, ongoing writings on music, such as the marathon Motown, Elvis, Zappa, Dylan etc. threads. It ain't a competition, because it ain't the same race.
There will always be a type of attitude there about this place, just because the two folks who started The Smile Shop are there, and they hate Charles LePage. There are people there who severed their affiliation with the board under bad circumstances. But it is silly, because the same people aren't really involved in the argument, virtually everyone here came along after that. So it is pointless, and the ties should be totally severed, and I would be happy if The Record Room was never mentioned here again. It was a mistake to point out anything that was posted there about the new Beach Boys album.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 09:21:22 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.

Surely you can't critique pointless silly fights/comments on these boards with Spaceman as a main RR contributer   :lol

Meh, it's a meaningless entry in an apparently long-running petty gradeschool message board ping pong competition. There's a thread about this thread going on over there right now talking about our big mouths and small brains. It's infantile and what's worse is they seem to look for just about any excuse to "prove" how superior "they" are to "us". I don't particularly care - board allegiance is a sad thing - but it is an explanation for a few of the messages here.

It isn't long-running. That thread is about the same subject as this one, someone just mentioned the discussion about it over here, and that became a part of the conversation. The folks that want to speak negatively about things that are said on this board don't have to look far or obsess over it to find what they dislike. Anyone casting aspersion on that type of behavior here is a hypocrite, that same thing has gone on in several threads here.
Personally, I don't care much about any of it any more really, because the two boards aren't even attempting to do the same thing. This is a conversation board about The Beach Boys that angles towards the fan-casual. The "Beach Boys" section of The Record Room is a splinter section that at times has gone bereft of posts for months at a time. What that place is mainly about is lengthy, ongoing writings on music, such as the marathon Motown, Elvis, Zappa, Dylan etc. threads. It ain't a competition, because it ain't the same race.
There will always be a type of attitude there about this place, just because the two folks who started The Smile Shop are there, and they hate Charles LePage. There are people there who severed their affiliation with the board under bad circumstances. But it is silly, because the same people aren't really involved in the argument, virtually everyone here came along after that. So it is pointless, and the ties should be totally severed, and I would be happy if The Record Room was never mentioned here again. It was a mistake to point out anything that was posted there about the new Beach Boys album.

Nice post.  I had never heard of the Record Room, but was happy to hear about it.  Nobody here really talks about the RR as far as I can tell.  The only ones who bring it up are RR posters, so I don't think you'll have to worry about that heh.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 09:32:40 PM
And now for something completely the same.

DARO: "I was of the Beat Generation, never a hippie... Just re-read what was written about me in books about Brian after many years. It's simply astonishing how so much is inaccurate, made up out of whole cloth. Events that never even happened turned into long, involved anecdotes. I was their favorite voodoo doll, their pens were their needles..."

on the acid trip: "No particular insights -- they came later as the experience sunk in. he did see God, as I thought he might... We discussed every aspect endlessly. It was, to him, a completely positive experience."

Question time for the next volley! I'll add the "typical day" question to that one for wacky sitcom purposes.





Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 09:43:43 PM
I'm actually confused by Loren's current "positive" look on Brian's first LSD trip.  Didn't Loren say Brian went into his room and put his head in the pillow, and Brian said he was crying for his parents or something??


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 09:45:37 PM
Right, he mentions that Leaf doc story again first but I snipped it. It's not uncommon to have difficult moments and then laugh about them when you realize it's all in your head and simply getting out of bed or going into another room with "enough of THAT!" is enough to break the spell. I think he means the rest of it was positive.

DARO: "I was around almost all the time in the months following his trip. yes, California Girls, and other later hits emerged during that time. He was at the piano constantly..."


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 09:55:56 PM
Right, he mentions that Leaf doc story again first but I snipped it. It's not uncommon to have difficult moments and then laugh about them when you realize it's all in your head and simply getting out of bed or going into another room with "enough of THAT!" is enough to break the spell. I think he means the rest of it was positive.

DARO: "I was around almost all the time in the months following his trip. yes, California Girls, and other later hits emerged during that time. He was at the piano constantly..."

I wonder what Loren would say to Brian saying he wish he didn't take LSD (though I think Brian overplays what LSD did compared to the antipsychotics).


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 09:58:24 PM
Yeah, his story sure seems to change depending on mood, year, interviewer, color of shirt, etc. I'll ask that, tho.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 29, 2012, 10:03:44 PM
Well, didn't the voice hallucinations start because of LSD?  I guess that's soooorta a big deal


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 10:04:11 PM
I've never seen Brian speak positively of his experiences with LSD. He always speaks of it "shattering his mind" and whatnot. The folks who run his life surely wouldn't approve of him saying something pro-drug, but when he talks about LSD shattering his mind etc., there's just something in his voice that sounds very genuine with regret. He sounds kind of hurt sometimes, really.

If Loren is really spinning it as positive because hey, while it shattered his mind and made him hear voices that he hears to this day, it directly caused Brian to write his best material (which is debatable, anyway), then that's kind of sick.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 29, 2012, 10:09:30 PM
And yet he'll blurt excitedly that it "gave him" California Girls.

  Is he telling the truth when he insists it was just the once? Is that likely?

And can you really draw a straight line from does 125 mics of acid to "hears voices for decades?"

And I'm guessing he was glowing and positive to his hepcat New Best Friend Slash Guru and mulled over the experience endlessly into the night. Those 60s discussions that Lorren is remembering wouldn't be tinged by decades of therapy, Landy's take, Melinda's take, many DECADES of endlessly repeating the same soundbites to the press, etc.

Who knows. How can you write about somebody's acid trip and how it affects their life when the person in question already has more than a few, um, factors going? How is anybody going to arrive at any "answers," anyway...  it's interesting to hear this fella's take, tho.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 10:31:22 PM
Naw, I agree. Not a simple issue by any means.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 29, 2012, 10:37:57 PM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.

Surely you can't critique pointless silly fights/comments on these boards with Spaceman as a main RR contributer   :lol

Meh, it's a meaningless entry in an apparently long-running petty gradeschool message board ping pong competition. There's a thread about this thread going on over there right now talking about our big mouths and small brains. It's infantile and what's worse is they seem to look for just about any excuse to "prove" how superior "they" are to "us". I don't particularly care - board allegiance is a sad thing - but it is an explanation for a few of the messages here.

It isn't long-running. That thread is about the same subject as this one, someone just mentioned the discussion about it over here, and that became a part of the conversation. The folks that want to speak negatively about things that are said on this board don't have to look far or obsess over it to find what they dislike. Anyone casting aspersion on that type of behavior here is a hypocrite, that same thing has gone on in several threads here.
Personally, I don't care much about any of it any more really, because the two boards aren't even attempting to do the same thing. This is a conversation board about The Beach Boys that angles towards the fan-casual. The "Beach Boys" section of The Record Room is a splinter section that at times has gone bereft of posts for months at a time. What that place is mainly about is lengthy, ongoing writings on music, such as the marathon Motown, Elvis, Zappa, Dylan etc. threads. It ain't a competition, because it ain't the same race.
There will always be a type of attitude there about this place, just because the two folks who started The Smile Shop are there, and they hate Charles LePage. There are people there who severed their affiliation with the board under bad circumstances. But it is silly, because the same people aren't really involved in the argument, virtually everyone here came along after that. So it is pointless, and the ties should be totally severed, and I would be happy if The Record Room was never mentioned here again. It was a mistake to point out anything that was posted there about the new Beach Boys album.

Nice post.  I had never heard of the Record Room, but was happy to hear about it.  Nobody here really talks about the RR as far as I can tell.  The only ones who bring it up are RR posters, so I don't think you'll have to worry about that heh.

People here were happy to bring up the RR when it had information they didn't know about their "precious", that's for damn sure. And on the RR, this place has only been mentioned 2 or 3 times over the last five or so years, to which the response is usually "that place still exists, where people talk about The Beach Boys 24/7?". So, this place, that place, can go back to doing what they do, respectively, and stop wasting time.
Back to Daro. Have fun.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 10:51:25 PM
There's not even a difference between the boards, and it seems most people who post over there have accounts here too. Whenever the record room is brought up here I go over there and read a few posts and it's all the same sh*t. I mean, Jeff Mason was the one who brought up the record room here in the first place, and he's over in the record room thread rolling his eyes over our discussion of something that *he* brought up.

It's just ridiculous. Nobody cares about whatever stupid feud you guys have with eachother, just shut up about it already. I forget what the source of the drama even was, though I did bother to look through old threads here once to find out and it was some of the stupidest and most inconsequential stuff imaginable. Just drop it you guys, it's moronic.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 29, 2012, 10:56:52 PM
what if you had the power to spray diarrhea all over your car windshield at over a hundred miles per hour


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on May 29, 2012, 11:12:01 PM
what if you had the power to spray diarrhea all over your car windshield at over a hundred miles per hour
Does it have to be my windshield it would be totally awesome to do this to people


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 29, 2012, 11:16:44 PM
There's not even a difference between the boards, and it seems most people who post over there have accounts here too. Whenever the record room is brought up here I go over there and read a few posts and it's all the same sh*t. I mean, Jeff Mason was the one who brought up the record room here in the first place, and he's over in the record room thread rolling his eyes over our discussion of something that *he* brought up.

It's just ridiculous. Nobody cares about whatever stupid feud you guys have with eachother, just shut up about it already. I forget what the source of the drama even was, though I did bother to look through old threads here once to find out and it was some of the stupidest and most inconsequential stuff imaginable. Just drop it you guys, it's moronic.

I already dropped it, so be quiet, shithead.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 29, 2012, 11:26:46 PM
I'm here. Say what you need to say.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist on May 29, 2012, 11:33:43 PM
I'm here. Say what you need to say.

Butts.

Definitely butts.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: guitarfool2002 on May 29, 2012, 11:39:13 PM
I'm here. Say what you need to say.

Butts.

Definitely butts.

Seymour?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Dunderhead on May 29, 2012, 11:57:26 PM
There's not even a difference between the boards, and it seems most people who post over there have accounts here too. Whenever the record room is brought up here I go over there and read a few posts and it's all the same sh*t. I mean, Jeff Mason was the one who brought up the record room here in the first place, and he's over in the record room thread rolling his eyes over our discussion of something that *he* brought up.

It's just ridiculous. Nobody cares about whatever stupid feud you guys have with eachother, just shut up about it already. I forget what the source of the drama even was, though I did bother to look through old threads here once to find out and it was some of the stupidest and most inconsequential stuff imaginable. Just drop it you guys, it's moronic.

I already dropped it, so be quiet, sh*thead.

Chill out, my post wasn't even directed at you, rather the topic in general. Watch the attitude, you have a huge chip on your shoulder that is constantly polluting discussion. You may have dropped it in this thread, but it's not like it won't come up again. You seem to be at the center of drama again and again, in this thread, in the new album info thread, in the thread about combining Sunflower and Surf's Up, in the thread about Amazon samples. When your posts are normal there isn't a problem, but you get carried away all too often by posting bitter, condescending remarks. And then when people get angry or call you out on it you just try and dismiss them with an ironic wave of the hand. Just knock it off already. If you're going to drop it just drop it and stop provoking other posters in every other thread you contribute to. It's really tiresome.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: buddhahat on May 30, 2012, 02:00:38 AM
*Sigh* This is getting really ugly...

This is the sort of thing that causes the people on the Record Room to say what they say about this board.  Of course it isn't all that, there's cool people and discussion here,  but this is getting pretty silly.

Surely you can't critique pointless silly fights/comments on these boards with Spaceman as a main RR contributer   :lol

Meh, it's a meaningless entry in an apparently long-running petty gradeschool message board ping pong competition. There's a thread about this thread going on over there right now talking about our big mouths and small brains. It's infantile and what's worse is they seem to look for just about any excuse to "prove" how superior "they" are to "us". I don't particularly care - board allegiance is a sad thing - but it is an explanation for a few of the messages here.

It isn't long-running. That thread is about the same subject as this one, someone just mentioned the discussion about it over here, and that became a part of the conversation. The folks that want to speak negatively about things that are said on this board don't have to look far or obsess over it to find what they dislike. Anyone casting aspersion on that type of behavior here is a hypocrite, that same thing has gone on in several threads here.
Personally, I don't care much about any of it any more really, because the two boards aren't even attempting to do the same thing. This is a conversation board about The Beach Boys that angles towards the fan-casual. The "Beach Boys" section of The Record Room is a splinter section that at times has gone bereft of posts for months at a time. What that place is mainly about is lengthy, ongoing writings on music, such as the marathon Motown, Elvis, Zappa, Dylan etc. threads. It ain't a competition, because it ain't the same race.
There will always be a type of attitude there about this place, just because the two folks who started The Smile Shop are there, and they hate Charles LePage. There are people there who severed their affiliation with the board under bad circumstances. But it is silly, because the same people aren't really involved in the argument, virtually everyone here came along after that. So it is pointless, and the ties should be totally severed, and I would be happy if The Record Room was never mentioned here again. It was a mistake to point out anything that was posted there about the new Beach Boys album.

It strikes me certain members, yourself included, indulge in a perverse sort of bear-bating where you dip your toe back in to the waters here, then report back about how hopeless this place is. If that's how you get your kicks ....  But spare us the tedious rationalization, please. You have just as strong feelings about LePage as Jon Hunt et al, but at least those guys have the decency not to post here.
 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SMiLE-Holland on May 30, 2012, 02:22:05 AM
There's not even a difference between the boards, and it seems most people who post over there have accounts here too. Whenever the record room is brought up here I go over there and read a few posts and it's all the same sh*t. I mean, Jeff Mason was the one who brought up the record room here in the first place, and he's over in the record room thread rolling his eyes over our discussion of something that *he* brought up.

It's just ridiculous. Nobody cares about whatever stupid feud you guys have with eachother, just shut up about it already. I forget what the source of the drama even was, though I did bother to look through old threads here once to find out and it was some of the stupidest and most inconsequential stuff imaginable. Just drop it you guys, it's moronic.

I already dropped it, so be quiet, sh*thead.

that was totally unnecessary.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 30, 2012, 07:59:02 AM

It strikes me certain members, yourself included, indulge in a perverse sort of bear-bating where you dip your toe back in to the waters here, then report back about how hopeless this place is. If that's how you get your kicks ....  But spare us the tedious rationalization, please. You have just as strong feelings about LePage as Jon Hunt et al, but at least those guys have the decency not to post here.
 

Jon Hunt has posted here, genius. And if you could have been bothered to read what I actually said, you would have seen that there was no rationalisation involved, I was attempting to end the whole thing, with a measure of kindness. But of course, utterly lame jackals like you and Fishmonk have to come along and stoke the whole thing back up.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 30, 2012, 08:01:48 AM
There's not even a difference between the boards, and it seems most people who post over there have accounts here too. Whenever the record room is brought up here I go over there and read a few posts and it's all the same sh*t. I mean, Jeff Mason was the one who brought up the record room here in the first place, and he's over in the record room thread rolling his eyes over our discussion of something that *he* brought up.

It's just ridiculous. Nobody cares about whatever stupid feud you guys have with eachother, just shut up about it already. I forget what the source of the drama even was, though I did bother to look through old threads here once to find out and it was some of the stupidest and most inconsequential stuff imaginable. Just drop it you guys, it's moronic.



I already dropped it, so be quiet, sh*thead.

that was totally unnecessary.


Sorry. His post was unnecessary as well.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: I. Spaceman on May 30, 2012, 08:03:51 AM
There's not even a difference between the boards, and it seems most people who post over there have accounts here too. Whenever the record room is brought up here I go over there and read a few posts and it's all the same sh*t. I mean, Jeff Mason was the one who brought up the record room here in the first place, and he's over in the record room thread rolling his eyes over our discussion of something that *he* brought up.

It's just ridiculous. Nobody cares about whatever stupid feud you guys have with eachother, just shut up about it already. I forget what the source of the drama even was, though I did bother to look through old threads here once to find out and it was some of the stupidest and most inconsequential stuff imaginable. Just drop it you guys, it's moronic.

I already dropped it, so be quiet, sh*thead.

Chill out, my post wasn't even directed at you, rather the topic in general. Watch the attitude, you have a huge chip on your shoulder that is constantly polluting discussion. You may have dropped it in this thread, but it's not like it won't come up again. You seem to be at the center of drama again and again, in this thread, in the new album info thread, in the thread about combining Sunflower and Surf's Up, in the thread about Amazon samples. When your posts are normal there isn't a problem, but you get carried away all too often by posting bitter, condescending remarks. And then when people get angry or call you out on it you just try and dismiss them with an ironic wave of the hand. Just knock it off already. If you're going to drop it just drop it and stop provoking other posters in every other thread you contribute to. It's really tiresome.


The conversation WASN'T STARTED BY ME! For f*ck's sake.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 30, 2012, 08:31:35 AM
If calling someone sh*thead is a measure of kindness, I'd hate to hear you in a cruel moment.

This board is continuing to fall into suckishness. Thanks, guys.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 30, 2012, 08:34:53 AM
Any news, confirmation, debunkation Ontor?


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: buddhahat on May 30, 2012, 08:41:51 AM
.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: rab2591 on May 30, 2012, 08:42:22 AM
This board is continuing to fall into suckishness. Thanks, guys.

Honestly. I'm really tired of reading about the Record Room in every freakin' thread. I'm getting tired of having to ignore all the adolescent posts made here. I'm getting tired of the name-calling, the accusations, etc. This place is becoming such a mess. I'm not blaming any one person here, but those of you who spark these childish arguments know who you are. Please stop. Thanks.

Whatev. No one's gonna pay my post any attention anyways.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 30, 2012, 09:10:26 AM
This board is continuing to fall into suckishness. Thanks, guys.

Honestly. I'm really tired of reading about the Record Room in every freakin' thread. I'm getting tired of having to ignore all the adolescent posts made here. I'm getting tired of the name-calling, the accusations, etc. This place is becoming such a mess. I'm not blaming any one person here, but those of you who spark these childish arguments know who you are. Please stop. Thanks.

Whatev. No one's gonna pay my post any attention anyways.

I agree. 


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: SMiLE Brian on May 30, 2012, 09:12:17 AM
This board is continuing to fall into suckishness. Thanks, guys.

Honestly. I'm really tired of reading about the Record Room in every freakin' thread. I'm getting tired of having to ignore all the adolescent posts made here. I'm getting tired of the name-calling, the accusations, etc. This place is becoming such a mess. I'm not blaming any one person here, but those of you who spark these childish arguments know who you are. Please stop. Thanks.

Whatev. No one's gonna pay my post any attention anyways.

I agree. 
Yeah I am not happy either.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Cam Mott on May 30, 2012, 09:25:04 AM
Pot here calling kettle black. I've started and participated in and kept going some pretty heated discussions so I can't fault anybody for passion. Could we however tone down the name calling and character assassination? The only high ground I might be able to claim is that I never called names or besmirched characters. [cue multiple reposts of me calling people morons and insulting wives]

Amen. End of sermon. Benediction. Exit pews. Feel free to make fun of me, call me names and besmirch my character at will for this post..


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Murry the Friendly Ghost ♯♫♩🐇 on May 30, 2012, 09:28:01 AM
Quote
Honestly. I'm really tired of reading about the Record Room in every freakin' thread. I'm getting tired of having to ignore all the adolescent posts made here. I'm getting tired of the name-calling, the accusations, etc. This place is becoming such a mess. I'm not blaming any one person here, but those of you who spark these childish arguments know who you are. Please stop. Thanks.

I'm tired of all this sh*t as well. I could give a flying koala dump about who started what... I'm finishing it. I don't want to see a reply to this post from *anybody*, saying "oh, but so and so started it, wah wah wah". I don't care. I really don't.  It ends NOW. Or else.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Runaways on May 30, 2012, 09:31:01 AM
Quote
Honestly. I'm really tired of reading about the Record Room in every freakin' thread. I'm getting tired of having to ignore all the adolescent posts made here. I'm getting tired of the name-calling, the accusations, etc. This place is becoming such a mess. I'm not blaming any one person here, but those of you who spark these childish arguments know who you are. Please stop. Thanks.

I'm tired of all this sh*t as well. I could give a flying koala dump about who started what... I'm finishing it. I don't want to see a reply to this post from *anybody*, saying "oh, but so and so started it, wah wah wah". I don't care. I really don't.  It ends NOW. Or else.

On a happy note fellow texan, 9 days till woodlands show :-D


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Murry the Friendly Ghost ♯♫♩🐇 on May 30, 2012, 09:44:13 AM
Oh yeah... I'm excited as f***! Looking forward to hearing Isn't it Time live :)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ontor pertawst on May 30, 2012, 09:53:43 AM
Any news, confirmation, debunkation Ontor?

I posted a few snippets from last night on the last page and am about to fire off another volley!

So! Now that we're all done clucking our disapproval about The Other Guys, let's go back to insulting each other and arguing about drugs! C'mon, guys! Who's got the Reddi-Wip?



Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Murry the Friendly Ghost ♯♫♩🐇 on May 30, 2012, 09:56:52 AM
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/318272_4040248882015_1155573488_3844269_1285343885_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: onkster on May 30, 2012, 10:12:17 AM
Any news, confirmation, debunkation Ontor?

I posted a few snippets from last night on the last page and am about to fire off another volley!

So! Now that we're all done clucking our disapproval about The Other Guys, let's go back to insulting each other and arguing about drugs! C'mon, guys! Who's got the Reddi-Wip?



Wish I could find those snippets. Sadly, I can't, after wading through a load of juvenile crap. Perhaps when you post your next batch of stuff, you could include the last as well? Thanks...


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: buddhahat on May 30, 2012, 10:15:38 AM
This board is continuing to fall into suckishness. Thanks, guys.

Honestly. I'm really tired of reading about the Record Room in every freakin' thread. I'm getting tired of having to ignore all the adolescent posts made here. I'm getting tired of the name-calling, the accusations, etc. This place is becoming such a mess. I'm not blaming any one person here, but those of you who spark these childish arguments know who you are. Please stop. Thanks.

Whatev. No one's gonna pay my post any attention anyways.

Ok point taken. I've blanked my latest post as I think it served little point other than to flame the ill feeling. Apologies to all!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: lance on May 30, 2012, 12:38:17 PM
Damn, I guess I'm the only one enjoying all this!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Bill Tobelman on May 31, 2012, 03:58:21 PM
It amazes me that if this is a fake-- the person even went to the trouble to set up an email account with "lorrendaro" in it.

I did receive a response from the person & it was on topic.

The "bovine" comment about Marilyn was troubling until I checked Brian's bogus auto-bio and found her railing against Loren constantly. This may have led to such a point of view on his part.

Oh bogus bio....why do you tempt me so?

For as all informed reality-bound folks on this board know: a book can only an authoritative work or a completely worthless work. There is no in-between in "real reality."


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Lumen on May 31, 2012, 06:49:07 PM
What an obnoxious human being.  Elevating his own self-importance, slashing and burning practically everyone in Brian Wilson's life except for the true creative forces (imagine that).  All the while exalting himself as virtuous. 

I don't know any of these people, at all.  But I do know that this letter reeks of self-aggrandizement and historical re-writing. 

I'm an enormous Brian Wilson fan, as big as anyone else, but even I am comfortable admitting that he is no saint.  If one takes Marilyn Wilson at her word (and why wouldn't you?) she raised their daughters on her own.  Brian was absolutely an absentee father.  Regardless of his rare creative genius, he had major faults as a man.  And, ultimately, that's okay, it's part of the human experience.

But to blatantly slander the mother of his children that way is absolutely uncalled for.  It says more about the person saying it than it ever would say about Marilyn. 

The creative differences with Mike love and the rest of the band is not anything ground breaking.  I mean, really, if you are at all familiar with the Brian Wilson story, you know the lineage of his spiral.  Whoopty F*****' Doo.

And, frankly, to the root of this story -- has anyone ever really vilified this man?  Brian Wilson was an adult when he began using LSD.  The last time I checked, any fan that isn't an absolute sycophant would realize that Brian (and no one else) is ultimately responsible for his actions.  If the LSD did "shatter his mind" as he has said many times (and I believe him) then so be it.  If it was all an act, so be it.  But I find it a little ironic that the Wilson is perhaps one of the most well known people with schizoaffective disorder and yet this guy who likely hasn't seen him in nearly 50 years diagnoses him based on decades old remembrances.  The next thing we'll find out about this guy is that he's a relative of Bill Frist.  Wouldn't surprise me.

To think that a 75 year old man would write something more fitting to have been penned by a 16 year old in their underwear at 3 AM on Facebook; I sure hope that by my mid-70's I'm in a much more mature place than this, umm, gentleman is.


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: runnersdialzero on May 31, 2012, 06:51:17 PM
*applause*


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: Zach95 on May 31, 2012, 07:42:04 PM
This board is continuing to fall into suckishness. Thanks, guys.

Honestly. I'm really tired of reading about the Record Room in every freakin' thread. I'm getting tired of having to ignore all the adolescent posts made here. I'm getting tired of the name-calling, the accusations, etc. This place is becoming such a mess. I'm not blaming any one person here, but those of you who spark these childish arguments know who you are. Please stop. Thanks.

Whatev. No one's gonna pay my post any attention anyways.

Hey! I'm an adolescent!


Title: Re: Loren Daro comments on Brian & LSD (possibly...)
Post by: hideyotsuburaya on August 07, 2016, 12:52:05 PM
VDP's twitter "Why am I always the last to know.....this explains everything!"  response is uproarious