Joe Thomas 2.0

[Doo Dah]

Fascinating back story - a real life Celebrity Apprentice. I like hearing how Brian called the meeting and pretty much brought the issue to the fore. If true, it puts to bed many assumptions that he just coasts along and abdicates all facets of his career to his handlers. Brian is the Donald.

Joe...you're fired.
(13 years later...)
Joe...you're hired.

Wait a minute. Brian is the George. Steinbrenner.

[b00ts]

Was Joe involved at all in the production of Gettin' In Over My Head in 2004, or did they use some of Brian's old work with him ("How Could We Still Be Dancin'")? I would be interested to know when Brian and Joe buried the hatchet.

[Ron]

Fascinating back story - a real life Celebrity Apprentice. I like hearing how Brian called the meeting and pretty much brought the issue to the fore. If true, it puts to bed many assumptions that he just coasts along and abdicates all facets of his career to his handlers. Brian is the Donald.

Joe...you're fired.
(13 years later...)
Joe...you're hired.

Wait a minute. Brian is the George. Steinbrenner.

I think the story well illustrates Brian's manipulative behavior... he's a very passive agressive person.  I'm not knocking him, I just think it's part of his illness.  It's kind of textbook, actually. 

[I. Spaceman]

Yeah, Brian likes to get people in who seem to be controlling him, so they get the blame if it all goes wrong.

[Wirestone]

Was Joe involved at all in the production of Gettin' In Over My Head in 2004, or did they use some of Brian's old work with him ("How Could We Still Be Dancin'")? I would be interested to know when Brian and Joe buried the hatchet.

Joe was not directly involved with GIOMH. That album is an interesting story, because a good third or so of it is actually older recordings that have been gussied up. The credits do not acknowledge this.

-- Soul Searchin and Saturday Morning in the City are both recordings from the Paley sessions. They have a few vocal and instrumental overdubs.
-- Gettin' In Over My Head is actually an Imagination-era recording -- Joe's guys are credited in the musician list. Again, it has a new vocal and some overdubs.
-- Desert Drive is from sessions that predate the main album sessions by a year or so. It's also the only track that features Darian.

How Could We Still Be Dancin' seems to have been written after Imagination by Brian and Joe (he started talking about it in 99), but it was recorded during the main sessions for the album. (Not sure if any prior version exists.)

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Was Joe involved at all in the production of Gettin' In Over My Head in 2004, or did they use some of Brian's old work with him ("How Could We Still Be Dancin'")? I would be interested to know when Brian and Joe buried the hatchet.

Joe was not directly involved with GIOMH. That album is an interesting story, because a good third or so of it is actually older recordings that have been gussied up. The credits do not acknowledge this.

-- Soul Searchin and Saturday Morning in the City are both recordings from the Paley sessions. They have a few vocal and instrumental overdubs.
-- Gettin' In Over My Head is actually an Imagination-era recording -- Joe's guys are credited in the musician list. Again, it has a new vocal and some overdubs.
-- Desert Drive is from sessions that predate the main album sessions by a year or so. It's also the only track that features Darian.

How Could We Still Be Dancin' seems to have been written after Imagination by Brian and Joe (he started talking about it in 99), but it was recorded during the main sessions for the album. (Not sure if any prior version exists.)

Brian was probably bored to tears having to re-record that stuff. 

He expressed displeasure in a particular interview at the time, complaining of having no say in the song choices and being too weak to speak up for himself. Naturally, this was dismissed as Brian's depression acting up, and it very well may have been. But that doesn't make it untrue. If anybody has that interview or can locate it online I'd love to read it again.

[Ron]

I thought I read a story of Brian's band (who weren't around for the Paley sessions, right?) talking about how excited they were (in a fan, geeky way) to get to record "Saturday Morning in the city" one day when Brian came into the studio. 

This is just a story in the cobwebs of my brain, though, I may have it mixed up. 

[endofposts]

GIOMH is not a pretty chapter in Brian Wilson history.  One hopes the person responsible learned her lesson.  AHEM!

[Wirestone]

I thought I read a story of Brian's band (who weren't around for the Paley sessions, right?) talking about how excited they were (in a fan, geeky way) to get to record "Saturday Morning in the city" one day when Brian came into the studio. 

This is just a story in the cobwebs of my brain, though, I may have it mixed up. 

Band members claimed they re-recorded SMITC and SS. But if you listen to the tracks side by side, they are basically identical. You can still hear Andy Paley singing the bass parts in the bridge of SMITC, for example, and SS still has its organ solo -- just with a sax solo inexplicably being played over the top of it.

[Ron]

Maybe they tried changing the tempo or something, but eventually settled on using the original track, who knows?  Thanks for clearing that up though, I thought I remembered something about that. 

[Wirestone]

GIOMH is not a pretty chapter in Brian Wilson history.  One hopes the person responsible learned her lesson.  AHEM!

Heh. Y'know, I have to forgive Melinda for this, if only because it was the first point where her really pushing Brian to do something hadn't paid off. You know, she encouraged him to work with Joe, and Imagination turned out reasonably well. She pushed him to tour, and he really liked that and got great notices. So I'm sure she felt that she could push him to do a "trunk songs" album and he would eventually get into it. David Leaf seemed to think it was a good idea, too.

But for whatever reason, Brian was just fitfully engaged. I like GIOMH a lot personally, but I accept that it doesn't always show Brian at his best, and probably should have been delayed / re-recorded / scrapped.

[endofposts]

GIOMH is not a pretty chapter in Brian Wilson history.  One hopes the person responsible learned her lesson.  AHEM!

Heh. Y'know, I have to forgive Melinda for this, if only because it was the first point where her really pushing Brian to do something hadn't paid off. You know, she encouraged him to work with Joe, and Imagination turned out reasonably well. She pushed him to tour, and he really liked that and got great notices. So I'm sure she felt that she could push him to do a "trunk songs" album and he would eventually get into it. David Leaf seemed to think it was a good idea, too.

But for whatever reason, Brian was just fitfully engaged. I like GIOMH a lot personally, but I accept that it doesn't always show Brian at his best, and probably should have been delayed / re-recorded / scrapped.

Brian didn't really produce it and wasn't even around for a lot of the mix-downs.  That's how totally disengaged he was.  I think it was something they owed the label but it's clear his heart wasn't in it and it's not a good piece of work.  Even his singing on it is worse than usual.

[Runaways]

i still don't own GIOMH, but i always enjoy 30 second clips of the album when i hear it.  i guess i'm missing the parts when brian is out of it.  I do think City Blues was butchered though.  Not as good as the low quality bootleg.

[Wirestone]

Brian didn't really produce it and wasn't even around for a lot of the mix-downs.

The first part of your sentence has been said of every one of Brian's solo albums. So I have no idea why it would be more or less true for GIOMH. Do you have any specific reason to believe it here?

As for mixing, I think that's a red herring. Brian hasn't been involved in the mixing stage of several of his albums -- and given that he can't even hear stereo properly, he's not a good person to do it anyway.

[Ron]

We don't really know what Brian's 'therapy' is like, either.  Melinda has done a great job of pushing him (Lovingly, I presume) to be successful, even if successful just means doing something, anything, with his career and his god given talent. 

Even if Brian's working on a sub-par album, he's working, and he's being productive... and he's employing people, and creating jobs, and making music that some will get inspiration out of.  He's giving, he's living, he's producing. 

Not everybody enjoyed the album, but some people did, and some people probably were really inspired by it, because there's a little bit of inspiration in most of Brian's work.  All that came about beacuse Brian was pushed to do that album, and got out of bed. 

Also it's worth noting, that was a stepping stone to BWPS, and where Brian is today. 

[Wirestone]

I actually wrote a long essay in praise of that album -- and happen to believe there's a great deal of worthwhile stuff there.

I'm a big fan of the tag of "You Touched Me," for instance. And despite dodgy intonation on a few notes, Brian's vocal on "Fairy Tale" is pretty neat.

Ultimately, it's an interesting, rather flawed record. But Brian has made a lot of those!

[Ron]

Yeah I'm with you on both of those songs.  The end of "you Touched Me" is really great.  The RonnieSpectorish "Baby, Baby, I Love You!" at the end of "Fairy Tale" is worth suffering through the bum notes earlier in the song. 

Brian's great, really great... sometimes.  He's also bad, really bad, sometimes.  Similarly that album is great, and bad. 


It's almost like when the bar gets lowered so much by a lot of the tracks, that when he does pull something off that's really great, it makes it that much better in comparison. 

[b00ts]

Brian didn't really produce it and wasn't even around for a lot of the mix-downs.

The first part of your sentence has been said of every one of Brian's solo albums. So I have no idea why it would be more or less true for GIOMH. Do you have any specific reason to believe it here?

As for mixing, I think that's a red herring. Brian hasn't been involved in the mixing stage of several of his albums -- and given that he can't even hear stereo properly, he's not a good person to do it anyway.

This is why I think he must have had a good amount of influence over post-production (mixing in particular) on Gettin' In Over My Head... the mix is pretty mono-sounding for much of the album. Unfortunately, as you said, Brian is not the ideal person to mix his own material. This is the case with most artists, whether they hear in mono or stereo.

The fact that people doubt Brian's involvement in his own records has to do in part with the collaborators he surrounds himself with. Brian has always been a consummate collaborator, with isolated incidents of nearly pure auterism (Love You, for one example). I always enjoy the fact that Brian highlights the contributions of others, such as on the Pet Sounds box set. Many people think that the whole album is genius Brian Wilson pulling all the strings, but the brilliant musicians Had quite a lot of input, as we hear in those sessions.

The reverse seems to be true for many of the solo albums where people suspect Brian isn't doing anything but singing. The staged studio shots from his DVDs do little to dispell this notion.

[monicker]

The GIOMH reaction has always seemed odd to me. I certainly don’t love it (nor any BW solo album, though i’m pretty close to loving 88), but i think, all things considered, it’s a strong album, and most importantly, the production and arranging are much better than anything in Brian’s solo career. The low point is definitely Eric Clapton’s presence (what a disaster), with Fairy Tale and DLHKSAA sagging toward the end, as well as some poor vocals. But i think as a whole GIOMH annihilates Imagination (the black hole of BW’s solo albums) and IJWMFTT (the pits). Granted, not that that really says anything at all. But then i think it’s actually better than his last three albums too (though there’s not as great of a difference in quality as there is with the other two). GIOMH has more memorable songwriting. It has, by far, the most organic and natural production of any of his albums. It’s warmer, subtler, and more tasteful. Everything doesn’t sound so separated like it does on the later albums. b00ts mentioned that the mix is pretty mono sounding. I hear that too and i think it helps the sound a lot. I actually really dig some of the bass tones and wish that the later albums and especially TWGMTR had similar bass tones. The worst sounding aspect of the production style of all of Brian’s solo records has been the drums, but they sound better on this album than on any other. Then the arrangements themselves are more vibrant, exciting, and, i hate to use this word but, edgier than anything that came after. They take more risks, and are generally more characteristic of BW’s sound. I guess in the end i prefer to hear BW chord progressions and melodies “Wilsonized” in a BW/BB-by-numbers pastiche than having the rather lifeless arrangements and bland production of TLOS and BWRG, or Joe Thomas (who i don’t think understands Brian’s music at all) coming in and putting a disgusting, synthetic, slick sheen over his compositions, and placing him in an Adult Contemporary mold. How can THAT be better than just aping his own old sound? I’d also rather hear BW overdub himself any day than have his band handling the background vocals, as i really dislike their sound/style/blend (or lack thereof).

In my personal ranking of BW solo albums GIOMH is #2 after BW88.

EDIT: What’s the reason that Desert Drive was the only track to feature  backing vocals by Brian’s band? I always found it surprising that, for so many years in his solo career, Brian had the patience to record all the backing vocals himself.

[Loaf]

Back to the original message, from what I can recall, when the Beach Boys/High Llamas album discussion was shelved back around 1995-6, it was because the Brian Wilson camp wanted to put out a solo album first, and the plan was then to do a Beach Boys album afterwards.

It is therefore entirely possible that most/all of the songs on the new album date from a BW/JT songwriting period in which they were creating songs not only for Brian's solo album (Imagination), but also for a BBs album that never came to pass... until now. After the nastiness of the lawsuits following Imagination, from JT and other members of the BBs camp, it would appear that these songs were destined never to be used.

Once the 50th Anniversary negotiations were complete, and the band needed some BBs songs quick, there was the option of returning to the stash of songs originally written for a BBs project. Joe Thomas also has experience of directing and recording live shows, and i imagine that a live DVD will eventually be released, if album sales are strong enough, of the reunion and tour.


Seems logical to me.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

All interesting replies, thanks.

Something I found from July 2011:

Wilson's St. Charles years weren't without strife. Wilson and Thomas ended up filing nasty lawsuits against each other in 1999 over the “Imagination” album, and settled them out of court a year later. Details of the settlement were not disclosed, Rolling Stone magazine reported.

Wilson and Thomas have since mended fences and resumed their close friendship and working relationship, Thomas said.

“Brian's one of those guys who can just walk over to your house, open the refrigerator, and make himself a sandwich,” Thomas said.

Wilson might be doing just that, because he plans to stay with his former neighbor when he's in town for a greatest hits show Saturday, July 30, at the Arcada Theatre in St. Charles.

Thomas wouldn't reveal details during an interview last week, but don't be surprised if Wilson stays in St. Charles and writes some new songs while he's here.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110719/news/707199985/

[Autotune]

I’d also rather hear BW overdub himself any day than have his band handling the background vocals, as i really dislike their sound/style/blend (or lack thereof).

EDIT: What’s the reason that Desert Drive was the only track to feature  backing vocals by Brian’s band? I always found it surprising that, for so many years in his solo career, Brian had the patience to record all the backing vocals himself.

I'm with you here. But can't forget that at the time one of the reasons for fans' backslashing the album were Brian's stacked backing vocals. He hasn't done it since, except for the hidden track on TLOS. I conclude: Brian obviously reads this board.

[Runaways]

yeah i don't like it when it's just brian's voice stacked. 

[Melt Away]

I personally love the Wall of Brian's and a lot of  GIOMH. At least it shows Brian for who he was and how he sounded at that time. I almost feel greasy after listening to Imagination because of the slickness. At first I couldn't believe why in the hell they would pick JT again but it doesn't sound like he's over cheesed the new record so whatever. The guy is helping them get a new record out and helping with a dvd etc so it's hard to hate him right now but I wish Brian had some damn gull to go in there and write some completely new tunes like the genius he is but that's never gonna happen again. I don't know where I'm going with this other than JT isn't as much of a BB criminal as I thought but I still don't trust him till I hear/see everything he's involved with.

[Sheriff John Stone]

A lot of areas covered in this thread. Good discussion. This is my opinion , granted just from what I/we've heard so far...

We talked a lot about Mike's lawsuits as an obstacle to the reunion, but, it is interesting to recall the whole Melinda/Joe Thomas legal scuffle. And the lawsuit against Al's choice of band name. And, going way back, The Beach Boys suing Capitol Records (granted ancient history, different times/different people) which is now again their record company. And, the fairly recent tensions that David Marks had with Mike(?). All of those things seem like a long time ago, don't they? It's a good example of people putting things behind them when working for a common goal.

Yeah, I believe Brian and the group and Capitol Records wanted those old B. Wilson/J. Thomas songs. When they scoured Brian's unreleased back catalog, these were probably the most accessible, Beach Boyish songs. Certainly the safest and least quirky. But, I think Joe Thomas was brought back, not because of Imagination, but because of....drum roll...Stars And Stripes. Yes, Stars And Stripes, the album, wasn't the most popular release for fans like us, but, the project did have some redeeming qualities. With Joe running the show, the guys DID work together. They appeared on TV. Did a few shows together to promote the record. And, they appeared to be happy. Regardless of the chosen country artists, the song selections, and Joe's backing track production, THE GUYS SOUNDED GREAT! And, that's what Capitol Records wanted for this reunion. For the group to be happy and to SOUND great. I can almost picture a Capitol Records executive saying to Joe, "Remember what you did with the Stars And Stripes project. We want you to do THAT with this project..." So far, I think things worked out pretty well.

We may never know how much Joe contributed to the songwriting on TWGMTR, but I have a hunch his and the third writers' contributions were significant. However, I think Joe's biggest influence is on the production. I'm not sure Brian could produce something like this. Good or bad - you decide - this is a modern production. I don't know if Brian could make a leap like this (a lot like the Steve Levine-driven 1985 album). I think if you want an example of what a Brian-produced album would sound like, go to GIOMH or his Christmas album. This record sounds nothing like that. I'm sure, though, the forthcoming DVD will have the obligatory scenes with Brian in the studio, making suggestions. Don't misunderstand me, I like what I'm hearing, I really do. And, I'm glad Brian's aboard.

Somebody above wrote that they think Brian reads this board. You think so? I'd bet on Scott Totten.