New album info (as it rolls out...)

[Autotune]

Sure they do. But Headquarters does have a much better reputation that SS, SU, LDC, SDV2, Concert and Party. That's 6 for a start.

BFD. I gotcher effing reputation right here.  I'll take all those Beach Boys albums over 'Headquarters' all day and all night.

Headquarters.  From a group who can't even show up to Davy Jones' funeral!  Mike Nesmith didn't even want to join their reunions because of his huge ego! And when the 3 of them did reunite on the road, they couldn't do it for longer than a few months, if that!

That just seems irrelevant.

Regarding Foskett -- who can do better? The YT clip posted earlier suggests that Matt Jardine's voice has thinned out quite a bit. Adrian Baker is terrible. My take on it is that the falsetto slot is very hard to fill, period. Foskett isn't perfect, but to my ears he comes the closest, and is the most faithful to the music, of those available.

I know this is off-topic, but hey this is what we end up talking about when there's no news on the album.

1. Regarding the falsetto parts and who can do them besides Foskett or Matt, the answer is easy: the guy who sings in Mike and Bruce's band. He has a straightforward, unaffected delivery and a thick and easy tone throughout his whole falsetto register. However, Foskett earned his place in this reunion: he's been involved for three decades with this music, has Brian's trust and friendship, and is IMO a more complete artist than any of the other possiblities. He can sing the high parts and do jusice to them and plays really good guitar in a band that's full of guitar players (for whatever reason, his playing has also been bashed in this very board).

2. Brian did sing falsetto in the early years. Period. The tag to Fun Fun Fun, about 80% of DWB, about 90% of She knows me too well, 50% of Don't talk... I can go on and on... But we can take it out of this topic if needed.

[Wirestone]

Sure they do. But Headquarters does have a much better reputation that SS, SU, LDC, SDV2, Concert and Party. That's 6 for a start.

BFD. I gotcher effing reputation right here.  I'll take all those Beach Boys albums over 'Headquarters' all day and all night.

Headquarters.  From a group who can't even show up to Davy Jones' funeral!  Mike Nesmith didn't even want to join their reunions because of his huge ego! And when the 3 of them did reunite on the road, they couldn't do it for longer than a few months, if that!

That just seems irrelevant.

Regarding Foskett -- who can do better? The YT clip posted earlier suggests that Matt Jardine's voice has thinned out quite a bit. Adrian Baker is terrible. My take on it is that the falsetto slot is very hard to fill, period. Foskett isn't perfect, but to my ears he comes the closest, and is the most faithful to the music, of those available.

I know this is off-topic, but hey this is what we end up talking about when there's no news on the album.

1. Regarding the falsetto parts and who can do them besides Foskett or Matt, the answer is easy: the guy who sings in Mike and Bruce's band. He has a straightforward, unaffected delivery and a thick and easy tone throughout his whole falsetto register. However, Foskett earned his place in this reunion: he's been involved for three decades with this music, has Brian's trust and friendship, and is IMO a more complete artist than any of the other possiblities. He can sing the high parts and do jusice to them and plays really good guitar in a band that's full of guitar players (for whatever reason, his playing has also been bashed in this very board).

2. Brian did sing falsetto in the early years. Period. The tag to Fun Fun Fun, about 80% of DWB, about 90% of She knows me too well, 50% of Don't talk... I can go on and on... But we can take it out of this topic if needed.

1. Interesting. I guess that's Randall Kirsch. Here's DWB with him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OzFFLQiYuM. I like it!

2. I'm assuming you're talking about the touring. And it's true. But he never sang enough of it to qualify as the falsetto vocalist for the band -- he just did it now and then. I might quibble with your percentages -- he did all of DWB for quite awhile, although in a lower key. Not familiar with his version of SKMTW. And he did sing all of Don't Talk, at least at the Pet Sounds shows I saw -- again, in a lower key, but he definitely went into falsetto for it.

[Craig Boyd]

I can understand why this might get moved, the thread's went off a little bit but I would like to chime in with one thing about the Jeff/Falsetto debate.

Why do we have to have just one guy do the falsetto? The fact is that some of the guys sound better on some songs, Matt Jardine was/is untouchable on things like Hushabye and the tag at the end of All This Is That whereas Jeff is better on other songs. I will say that I never ever liked Jeff's vocal on I Get Around, it doesn't work for me, i'd prefer someone like Randall Kirsch do that.

[Wirestone]

I can understand why this might get moved, the thread's went off a little bit but I would like to chime in with one thing about the Jeff/Falsetto debate.

Why do we have to have just one guy do the falsetto? The fact is that some of the guys sound better on some songs, Matt Jardine was/is untouchable on things like Hushabye and the tag at the end of All This Is That whereas Jeff is better on other songs. I will say that I never ever liked Jeff's vocal on I Get Around, it doesn't work for me, i'd prefer someone like Randall Kirsch do that.

I think it's perfectly fine to have this thread ebb and flow. It's not like there was much new news when it was focused, either. I did start a thread awhile back called "Let's all argue about Jeff Foskett here," but I accidentally put it in the "Welcome to the Smiley Smile Board" section. If some mod could move that into the "general discussions" section, we could migrate this talk over there.

I do think your point is good, but the problem is that you have to have a manageable group, size-wise, to tour with. It would be a strain on the budget to tour with five falsetto singers!

That being said, I know more people in Brian's band are capable of falsetto. I believe Probyn can sing in that range, for example, although with less power than Jeff. And of course Taylor did a few "falsetto" parts here and there.

[Autotune]

Sure they do. But Headquarters does have a much better reputation that SS, SU, LDC, SDV2, Concert and Party. That's 6 for a start.

BFD. I gotcher effing reputation right here.  I'll take all those Beach Boys albums over 'Headquarters' all day and all night.

Headquarters.  From a group who can't even show up to Davy Jones' funeral!  Mike Nesmith didn't even want to join their reunions because of his huge ego! And when the 3 of them did reunite on the road, they couldn't do it for longer than a few months, if that!

That just seems irrelevant.

Regarding Foskett -- who can do better? The YT clip posted earlier suggests that Matt Jardine's voice has thinned out quite a bit. Adrian Baker is terrible. My take on it is that the falsetto slot is very hard to fill, period. Foskett isn't perfect, but to my ears he comes the closest, and is the most faithful to the music, of those available.

I know this is off-topic, but hey this is what we end up talking about when there's no news on the album.

1. Regarding the falsetto parts and who can do them besides Foskett or Matt, the answer is easy: the guy who sings in Mike and Bruce's band. He has a straightforward, unaffected delivery and a thick and easy tone throughout his whole falsetto register. However, Foskett earned his place in this reunion: he's been involved for three decades with this music, has Brian's trust and friendship, and is IMO a more complete artist than any of the other possiblities. He can sing the high parts and do jusice to them and plays really good guitar in a band that's full of guitar players (for whatever reason, his playing has also been bashed in this very board).

2. Brian did sing falsetto in the early years. Period. The tag to Fun Fun Fun, about 80% of DWB, about 90% of She knows me too well, 50% of Don't talk... I can go on and on... But we can take it out of this topic if needed.

1. Interesting. I guess that's Randall Kirsch. Here's DWB with him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OzFFLQiYuM. I like it!

2. I'm assuming you're talking about the touring. And it's true. But he never sang enough of it to qualify as the falsetto vocalist for the band -- he just did it now and then. I might quibble with your percentages -- he did all of DWB for quite awhile, although in a lower key. Not familiar with his version of SKMTW. And he did sing all of Don't Talk, at least at the Pet Sounds shows I saw -- again, in a lower key, but he definitely went into falsetto for it.

I'm sorry. Point 2. was addressed at another poster who said that Brian's falsetto was not falsetto.

[Craig Boyd]

I can understand why this might get moved, the thread's went off a little bit but I would like to chime in with one thing about the Jeff/Falsetto debate.

Why do we have to have just one guy do the falsetto? The fact is that some of the guys sound better on some songs, Matt Jardine was/is untouchable on things like Hushabye and the tag at the end of All This Is That whereas Jeff is better on other songs. I will say that I never ever liked Jeff's vocal on I Get Around, it doesn't work for me, i'd prefer someone like Randall Kirsch do that.

I think it's perfectly fine to have this thread ebb and flow. It's not like there was much new news when it was focused, either. I did start a thread awhile back called "Let's all argue about Jeff Foskett here," but I accidentally put it in the "Welcome to the Smiley Smile Board" section. If some mod could move that into the "general discussions" section, we could migrate this talk over there.

I do think your point is good, but the problem is that you have to have a manageable group, size-wise, to tour with. It would be a strain on the budget to tour with five falsetto singers!

That being said, I know more people in Brian's band are capable of falsetto. I believe Probyn can sing in that range, for example, although with less power than Jeff. And of course Taylor did a few "falsetto" parts here and there.

Obviously the size of the band has to be taken into account but like you say there are other people in the band already who could cover some of those parts. Probyn has a great voice, I think he covers Bruce's part at the end of California Girls doesn't he? I'm sure I seen him sing that part and he captured the essence and character of that line perfectly.

[hypehat]

Dr Lenny, according to the highly esteemed, and well-trained in the field of music poster aeijtzsche, Brian sings in a very high head voice, which accounts for his very full tone up in those ranges. Falsetto is just a term for 'high vocals' no matter what is actually going on. I was also kidding a little 

[AndrewHickey]

1. Regarding the falsetto parts and who can do them besides Foskett or Matt, the answer is easy: the guy who sings in Mike and Bruce's band. He has a straightforward, unaffected delivery and a thick and easy tone throughout his whole falsetto register. However, Foskett earned his place in this reunion: he's been involved for three decades with this music, has Brian's trust and friendship, and is IMO a more complete artist than any of the other possiblities. He can sing the high parts and do jusice to them and plays really good guitar in a band that's full of guitar players (for whatever reason, his playing has also been bashed in this very board).

There are actually two people taking the falsetto parts in Mike & Bruce's band - Randell Kirsch and Scott Totten. Randell (who's actually collaborated with Foskett off and on for more than thirty years) has a thicker, stronger voice, while Scott has a thinner voice but appears to be able to hit the high notes more comfortably than Randell. They often double each other. Randell will take leads like Don't Worry Baby which are at the low end of the falsetto. Scott takes fewer leads, but when he does (Let Him Run Wild, Ballad Of Ole Betsy) he's scarily good - he sounds spookily like mid-60s Brian on Let Him Run Wild.

Scott T is in the touring band for the reunion tour, so hopefully we'll see him take the 'Brian' parts of the harmony stack while Jeff takes 'Carl', as that would suit both their voices.

[vintagemusic]

A lot of people seem interested in micro managing Beach Boy decisions, about who should
sing the falsetto, who should produce, what the new songs should emulate in terms of past work.
Who should get to co-write, how many they should get to co-write. Which archival songs  they
should rework for the new album. What artwork they should use.

I have never seen a band so beloved on the one hand, and where those same people believe
they know what decisions should be made, rather than the band itself. It's very odd, I love the
Beach boys, but they should do this, and not do that, this is wrong, this is right.

How can you say you love a band on the one hand, and want to micromanage and control
everything on the other? from the songwriting, to the vocal blend, to the artwork, archival tracks
choice of producer, and on and on and on. How can you love something if you have no faith or
interest in the choices they themselves make?
for one percent of the overall information on the album. They chose to go with a guy who has been with
them 25-30 years. They could have picked somebody else, they could have asked Jimmy Webb to write songs
or McCartney, they could flown to Hawaii to get a tropical vibe, with a mobile studio on a beach, they could
have hired a hip younger backing band with some rock n roll chops, they could have brought in a true  name
producer with chops on these sort of new old album from old sixties people. Producers like Rick Rubin, or T Bone
Burnett. Or even Jeff Lynne. They could have brought in Van Dyke Parks, they could have done anything, but
they made some decisions and that's the way it is.

Nobody does this to the Stones or Bob Dylan or Paul McCartney, or Bruce Springsteen, you don't see threads
no no they should fire that drummer, they hire this guy, why is it with the Beach Boys, people do this? Like
they don't have brains of their own or something.

As far as comparing the Monkees to a real band or comparing discographies between the Beach Boys and Monkees
it would be more fair to compare Boyce and Hart, and say that Boyce and Hart used the Monkees as their vehicle.
Not unlike saying all the Phil Spector sixties groups were really him as the actual artist, and the groups merely his
vehicle. When the Monkees indeed began to write and produce their own aterial, no one liked it very much. Which is
why Lester Sill or whoever was running the deal didn't want them writing and producing in the first place.

Nesmith did go on to a critically acclaimed solo career, but to my knowledge ever had a hit record of any stature
whatsoever. None of that is really a fair comparison to the artistry of Brian Wilson.

As far as comparing the Zombies Odyssey and Oracle album as a great work worthy to stand alongside other great
sixties works, that's valid, I agree with AGD and his point, that was something when he heard it, it was like wow this
is great work, brilliant. The Monkees were not even in that league. The Monkees hits were good because Boyce and Hart
and Neil Diamond and people like that wrote those songs, great people played the tracks, and good producers supervised
but the real artists were Boyce and Hart and the wrecking crew not the Monkees themselves, they were merely a vehicle
to frame the work.


Is there any news whatsoever about the album., are they in the studio, what are they doing, how many songs are
scheduled for the album, apparently they cut all the backing tracks first, and are now going back to do all the vocals
that in itself is very interesting, and recalls the methods used on Pet Sounds and other albums. That is not a given that
you would do it that way, very often you wouldn't do it that way. you would work on one or two, go back cut another
track, work on that , cut one or two more, etc etc.

[Craig Boyd]

Oh actually I forgot about Scotty T and his vocal on Betsy, i'm sure they did it when I seen them in 08 and I was mighty impressed then!

The reason we have opinions on who should sing what is surely because we're fans? Why should fans sit back and have no opinion on details like that? And let's be honest, with all due respect to my favourite group, at various points in the bands history they've shown their decision making to be dubious at best. I mean do you think it was really the best idea to force Brian out front in the early 80's and have him tackle leads like Don't Worry Baby? You mention McCartney and Springsteen's bands and I agree to the best of my knowledge their fans don't argue on details like we do here. Looking beyond that though, the BB's have an unprecedented number of quality vocalists connected with the band in one way or another so it's only natural that we start asking things like - "Would such and such sound better on that part of the song?" Personally I love Darian's voice and he really channels Carl when he sings Darlin' but I don't like it when he sings Bruce's part at the end of God Only Knows and think that Probyn would be a better fit for this in Brian's live shows, obviously Bruce will handle this part himself on the reunion tour.

I wish we had some album news to talk about!!  

[Phoenix]

Sure they do. But Headquarters does have a much better reputation that SS, SU, LDC, SDV2, Concert and Party. That's 6 for a start.

BFD. I gotcher effing reputation right here.  I'll take all those Beach Boys albums over 'Headquarters' all day and all night.

Headquarters.  From a group who can't even show up to Davy Jones' funeral!  Mike Nesmith didn't even want to join their reunions because of his huge ego! And when the 3 of them did reunite on the road, they couldn't do it for longer than a few months, if that!

That just seems irrelevant.

Regarding Foskett -- who can do better? The YT clip posted earlier suggests that Matt Jardine's voice has thinned out quite a bit. Adrian Baker is terrible. My take on it is that the falsetto slot is very hard to fill, period. Foskett isn't perfect, but to my ears he comes the closest, and is the most faithful to the music, of those available.

My sentiments EXACTLY!

[Shady]

Just to say something on topic, I am so excited for this album 

[southbay]

Just to say something on topic, I am so excited for this album  

Awesome.  And I can't stand Adrian Baker, Randell Kirsch or the Monkees (what the heck, may as well chime in)

[vintagemusic]

Yeah Craig Boyd, I understand, and live is something else. But for the studio, opinions is one thing
Oh I think Matt Jardine would have been better on the falsetto, thats an opinion. But it goes way
beyond that, it gets into minutiea

and rancor, I can easily see why they went with the guy who is close to Wilson for some 30 years
now, if you were trying to get a guy, to duplicate the original falsetto sound, they probably could have
found some guy off the street via auditions, but realistically, in most cases, you pick someone who is
part of your crowd, when the Stones got Ron Wood, it was as much for his being a mate, and fitting in
that way, there are always zillions of guys who can play or sing, but the chemistry of fitting in at rehearsal
and sitting in the studio and the personal vibe is important, I can certainly understand why they made that
choice.

It goes beyond opinions. it gets into micro managing, something I have not seen before in fan sites for
other groups, with passionate followers.

Can someone give us some news about the albums progress or song titles or some kind of info we don't have yet.

[Sound of Free]

Wow, talk about a buzzkill.

I'm off the board for a couple of days and see that the "new album" thread that had been proceeding slowly has seven new pages!

Have more song titles come out? Has one of the band members given a big interview dropping hints of great new tunes? Maybe even a track has leaked!

What? It's almost all about the Monkees?  

Although since we're still debating a title for the new Beach Boys album, maybe they can call it "Gemini, Pisces, Virgo, Leo and Johnston." 

[Jonathan Blum]

As far as comparing the Monkees to a real band or comparing discographies between the Beach Boys and Monkees it would be more fair to compare Boyce and Hart, and say that Boyce and Hart used the Monkees as their vehicle.

...I think the phrase might be "their f***in' messengers".  :-)  And again, as with the Beach Boys when Brian stepped back, the messengers proved they could do damn good stuff without them.

Incidentally, AGD -- if you look for one Monkees deep cut, I'd suggest "Goin' Down" (not on any actual album, but the B-side to "Daydream Believer").  It's the one that converted me.  And yeah, the Monkees didn't write those lyrics -- Diane Hildebrand was their Tony Asher...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Phoenix]

As far as comparing the Monkees to a real band or comparing discographies between the Beach Boys and Monkees
it would be more fair to compare Boyce and Hart, and say that Boyce and Hart used the Monkees as their vehicle.
Not unlike saying all the Phil Spector sixties groups were really him as the actual artist, and the groups merely his
vehicle. When the Monkees indeed began to write and produce their own aterial, no one liked it very much. Which is
why Lester Sill or whoever was running the deal didn't want them writing and producing in the first place.

Just two points of clarification:

1.  Kirshner was the one in charge of the music at the beginning and he didn't want them writing, not for lack of talent but because it was his job to get songs for the group.  Even under Kirshner, Nesmith was promised two spots on each album to be written and produced by him so it wasn't like he thought they (or at least Mike had NO talent.)  Once Raybert (specifically Bert Schneider) sided with the group over Kirshner, he was out of a job, just like he knew he'd be.  (Sill was put in place as the liaison between the band and the songwriters and studios, once Kirshner was gone.) 

The problem is, the Monkees didn't mind outside songwriters.  Why would they, since the majority of them (not the ones Kirshner was giving album slots to just because they were his personal friends) were top notch craftsmen (and women)?  They also didn't mind supplemental players (as they did use a handful, sparingly, even on Headquarters).  The control they wanted was the opportunity to perform on the instrumental tracks (rather than be forbidden to) and the right to approve or veto any of the musical supervisor's choices.  And even the second request isn't as crazy as it sounds when you listen to Kirshner approved tracks like "Laugh" and (their absolute worst track, hands down) "The Day We Fall In Love".


2.  As for the Monkees being Boyce & Hart's messengers, that's another exaggerated myth.  Tommy (when he was alive) and Bobby have at least one song on every original Monkees album, with the exception of Head and 1996's fully self-penned Justus.  However, they only produced the majority of ONE Monkees album (their debut).  Kirshner was behind the eight ball when he was hired so he gave the album (with the exception of Mike's two tracks) to Boyce & Hart, because time was running out and they could work fast and cheap.  While they put together the album, Kirshner starting mining his resources for the next LP.  By the time it was released Boyce & Hart were just as surprised as Nesmith, as both he and them were led to believe the second album would be "theirs".  (Nesmith was promised more songs and a greater say, while Boyce & Hart were told the album would be made up completely of songs from their sessions with the group.  As it was, both of those entities (Nesmith and Boyce & Hart) got only two songs each on the second album.

In the end, the Monkees recorded a bunch of Tommy & Bobby's songs because they liked them personally (and therefore worked well with them) and they respected them as songwriters, and further appreciated that they could write specifically for the group's main vocalists and overall sound (since they helped establish it).  However,  The Monkees only RELEASED a total of 20 songs on 10 albums (including 8 on their debut) during the 60's.  Since then, they've released two initially unreleased tracks on the Missing Links rarities collection and two more new (at the time) Bobby Hart tracks during the 80's.  That's a grand total of 24.  By comparison, they're released 22 written by Nesmith during the 60's, with an additional 12 since, for a total of 36!

And just for the sake of curiosity here's a few more breakdowns:
Gerry Goffin and/or Carole King - 10 + 4 = 14 (The second largest number of songs provided by any outside songwriters, behind Boyce & Hart)
Micky Dolenz - 8 + 9 = 17
Davy Jones - 8 + 9 = 17
Peter Tork - 6 + 7 = 13

So contrary to popular belief, Boyce & Hart weren't nearly as much as "the guys who wrote 'em", as we've been led to believe.

[Mike's Beard]

In the defence of Davy Jones, as the heartthrob of the group, he was often handed slush to make all the little girls gooey.

[vintagemusic]

As far as comparing the Monkees to a real band or comparing discographies between the Beach Boys and Monkees
it would be more fair to compare Boyce and Hart, and say that Boyce and Hart used the Monkees as their vehicle.
Not unlike saying all the Phil Spector sixties groups were really him as the actual artist, and the groups merely his
vehicle. When the Monkees indeed began to write and produce their own aterial, no one liked it very much. Which is
why Lester Sill or whoever was running the deal didn't want them writing and producing in the first place.

Just two points of clarification:

1.  Kirshner was the one in charge of the music at the beginning and he didn't want them writing, not for lack of talent but because it was his job to get songs for the group.  Even under Kirshner, Nesmith was promised two spots on each album to be written and produced by him so it wasn't like he thought they (or at least Mike had NO talent.)  Once Raybert (specifically Bert Schneider) sided with the group over Kirshner, he was out of a job, just like he knew he'd be.  (Sill was put in place as the liaison between the band and the songwriters and studios, once Kirshner was gone.) 

The problem is, the Monkees didn't mind outside songwriters.  Why would they, since the majority of them (not the ones Kirshner was giving album slots to just because they were his personal friends) were top notch craftsmen (and women)?  The also didn't mind supplemental players (as they did use a handful, sparingly, even on Headquarters).  The control they wanted was the opportunity to perform on the instrumental tracks (rather than be forbidden to) and the right to approve or veto any of the musical supervisor's choices.  And even the second request isn't as crazy as it sounds when you listen to Kirshner approved tracks like "Laugh" and (their absolute worst track, hands down) "The Day We Fall In Love".


2.  As for the Monkees being Boyce & Hart's messengers, that's another exaggerated myth.  Tommy (when he was alive) and Bobby have at least one song on every original Monkees album, with the exception Head and 1996's fully self-penned Justus.  However, they only produced the majority of ONE Monkees album (their debut).  Kirshner was behind the eight ball when he was hired so he gave the album (with the exception of Mike's two tracks) to Boyce & Hart, because time was running out and they could work fast and cheap.  While they put together the album, Kirshner starting mining his resources for the next LP.  By the time it was released Boyce & Hart were just as surprised as Nesmith, as both he and them were led to believe the second album would be "theirs".  (Nesmith was promised more songs and a greater say, while Boyce & Hart were told the album would be made up completely of songs from their sessions with the group.  As it was, both of those entities (Nesmith and Boyce & Hart) got only two songs each on the second album.

In the end, the Monkees recorded a bunch of Tommy & Bobby's songs because they liked them personally (and therefore worked well with them) and they respected them as songwriters, and further appreciated that they could write specifically for the group's main vocalists and overall sound (since they helped establish it).  However,  The Monkees only RELEASED a total of 20 songs on 10 albums (including 8 on their debut) during the 60's.  Since then, they've released two initially unreleased tracks on the Missing Links rarities collection and two more new (at the time) Bobby Hart tracks during the 80's.  That's a grand total of 24.  By comparison, they're released 22 written by Nesmith during the 60's, with an additional 12 since, for a total of 36!

And just for the sake of curiosity here's a few more breakdowns:
Gerry Goffin and/or Carole King - 10 + 4 = 14 (The second largest number of songs provided by any outside songwriters, behind Boyce & Hart)
Micky Dolenz - 8 + 9 = 17
Davy Jones - 8 + 9 = 17
Peter Tork - 6 + 7 = 13

So contrary to popular belief, Boyce & Hart weren't nearly as much as "the guys who wrote 'em", as we've been led to believe.

That's a very good synopsis of the credits and story behind it. I think since the first album launched them that first album was a vehicle
for Boyce and Hart. In so far as the songwriting credits, by the band, no doubt Nesmith had the goods, but he couldn't write "hit monkee songs"
Dolen I think was a decent Lead vocalist, sounds good on a lot of their best tunes. The original songs they wrote, were not generally well regarded
by the public at the time, but hey I like their hits, and grew up with them, and liked the TV show.

I remember Richie Podolor had a group Fountain of Youth with Jimmy Panza and Gary Itri, trying to cash in on that whole craze, and Lester
Sill was behind that whole deal with Colgems or whatever it was called.

Its a fascinating expose of how the LA session machine worked , the LA sound in te sixties, similar to the Beach Boy machine except the Monkees
couldn't sing great harmony and didint have a Brian Wilson, in their membership.

I like the LA sound, I grew up with it, and I think it's important to recognize, that while the LA groups were not self contained entities with the in house
talent of the Beatles or Beach Boys, the wrecking crew, Boyce and Hart, a lot of the writers, the LA product was just as hip and slick as the London product
but the LA product was more manufactured by industry people and packaged as a group. of course there were some great LA groups, like the Beach Boys
but there were lots of great records made, but they were usually assembled by a crew of producers. session men, impresarios....but shortly after that an
explosion of self contained California groups began recording to great success with their own songs, self contained units, Steppenwolf, Three Dog Night, Iron Butterfly, Electric Prunes, Byrd's and many others. When Jim Gordon and Glen Campbell, and Hal Blaine and Tedesco and Leon Russell, are cutting your tracks
those are some pretty good people.

But the monkees were a manufactured parcelled out thing, bands rehearse, grow up together, develop their own sounds, have a signature and unique element to their style, the drumming or writing or the sound of the guys voice, the Monkees were very generic, Nesmith did go on to be something, but he couldn't really
do the Monkee hit single thing....

[Phoenix]

You bring up a lot of great points that people tend to forget.  The difference between London and L.A was like day and night.  In L.A., "everyone" used session musicians; usually the same guys.   Melcher even (initially) used the Wrecking Crew with the Byrds, leaving McGuinn the only band member playing on "Mr. Tambourine Man".  I understand the circumstances that brought the Monkees together but with the L.A. recording scene being what it was, they were more of a "real" band than most of them.  Groups like the Temptations or The Mamas and The Papas all used backing musicians but you never saw Mama Cass or any "band member" behind the drums when they went on tour. 

The Monkees live shows always get forgotten (or never known about).  Not only were their shows longer than most of their contemporaries, they actually put on a real show, using stuff like multimedia and costume changes from day one.  And with the exception of the band's opening act backing three of the four individual Monkees' solo spots, it was just those four guys on stage.  Even after Tork left in 1969, the band's next appearance (on the Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour) saw the band perform as a three piece, with Jones on bass.  (On that performance, they mimed to their newest single but played a live medley of their hits).  It was only for the 1969 tour that they first played with ANY backing musicians (aside from the previously mentioned solo spots).

One last thing to think about when considering them being a "real" band (beyond their origins) is that absolutely no backing musicians were used on their 1996 album AND on more than half (one full set, plus the encores) of each performance on their 1997 British tour.  That's something many "real" bands like The Beach Boys, The Eagles, The Bee Gees, and The Rolling Stones haven't done for a very, very long time.

[AndrewHickey]

Its a fascinating expose of how the LA session machine worked , the LA sound in te sixties, similar to the Beach Boy machine except the Monkees
couldn't sing great harmony and didint have a Brian Wilson, in their membership.

Actually they *could* sing great harmony, they just didn't very often because that wasn't their sound - go to youtube and watch the video of them singing Riu Chiu together - that's as good an a capella performance as I've seen.

But the monkees were a manufactured parcelled out thing, bands rehearse, grow up together, develop their own sounds, have a signature and unique element to their style, the drumming or writing or the sound of the guys voice, the Monkees were very generic, Nesmith did go on to be something, but he couldn't really
do the Monkee hit single thing....

The Monkees *did* do all that - just after, rather than before, their first two albums. And they did have a unique sound - Micky Dolenz's voice.

BTW some people in this thread seem to be crediting the Wrecking Crew for playing on the early Monkees records. They played on very little, and none of the hits. The sessions produced by Boyce & Hart used Boyce & Hart's band, The Candy Store Prophets, augmented by a couple of other musicians. The sessions produced by Jeff Barry or Goffin & King used New York session players. On the first two albums it's actually only Nesmith's tracks, plus Laugh and The Day We Fall In Love (the two mentioned earlier as the two worst tracks they ever did - also the only two Carol Kaye is known to have played on) that the Wrecking Crew played on. And Peter Tork played on the Nesmith tracks too.

[AndrewHickey]

As far as comparing the Monkees to a real band or comparing discographies between the Beach Boys and Monkees
it would be more fair to compare Boyce and Hart, and say that Boyce and Hart used the Monkees as their vehicle.
Not unlike saying all the Phil Spector sixties groups were really him as the actual artist, and the groups merely his
vehicle. When the Monkees indeed began to write and produce their own aterial, no one liked it very much. Which is
why Lester Sill or whoever was running the deal didn't want them writing and producing in the first place.

Except that they had more hit singles after the Monkees took over making their own records than before, as well as the huge hit albums Headquarters (second biggest selling album of 67 after Sgt Pepper), Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn and Jones Ltd, and The Birds, The Bees And The Monkees.

The Monkees hits were good because Boyce and Hart
and Neil Diamond and people like that wrote those songs, great people played the tracks, and good producers supervised
but the real artists were Boyce and Hart and the wrecking crew not the Monkees themselves, they were merely a vehicle
to frame the work.

Pleasant Valley Sunday and Daydream Believer, two of the very biggest hits the band ever had, featured the band instrumentally, were arranged by Peter Tork and Chip Douglas, and were produced by Chip Douglas (a friend of Nesmith's who'd never produced before being asked by Nesmith to produce the Monkees' records). Randy Scouse Git, a huge hit in the UK, was written by Micky Dolenz and had all four Monkees playing on it. The Wrecking Crew played on precisely zero of the Monkees' hits.

Even if the Wrecking Crew had played on every track, though, why is someone playing a bass part written by someone else more of a 'real artist' than someone singing a vocal melody written by someone else?

[Autotune]

Dr Lenny, according to the highly esteemed, and well-trained in the field of music poster aeijtzsche, Brian sings in a very high head voice, which accounts for his very full tone up in those ranges. Falsetto is just a term for 'high vocals' no matter what is actually going on. I was also kidding a little 

Yeah, I know what Josh thinks, and I esteem him. However, that's a field I kinda know about, and H's views are extremely debatable. We could start a thread on this and support our views with examples. But let's get back to Foskett or, better, the new album.

[Wirestone]

Dr Lenny, according to the highly esteemed, and well-trained in the field of music poster aeijtzsche, Brian sings in a very high head voice, which accounts for his very full tone up in those ranges. Falsetto is just a term for 'high vocals' no matter what is actually going on. I was also kidding a little 

Yeah, I know what Josh thinks, and I esteem him. However, that's a field I kinda know about, and H's views are extremely debatable. We could start a thread on this and support our views with examples. But let's get back to Foskett or, better, the new album.

Quite so. 

[Mike's Beard]

Nez wrote "The Girl That I Knew Somewhere" which was a huge hit and is also my favourite Monkees song.