Who hated SMiLE?

[adamghost]

Perhaps not.  But oh heavens, Cam, what makes you think what Brian said in an interview a year after the fact is likely to be MORE accurate, other than being closer to the event?  Yes, that's relevant, but more so is the fact that he's speaking for public consumption while the wounds are still fresh.  There's no way in that circumstance Brian would start blaming the rest of the group.  When you're speaking publicly, you choose your words carefully knowing people -- including the people you're talking about -- are going to be reading them and be affected by them.  He may not have the best PR sense in the world but he knew better than that, at least in the '60s.  It's an interview, for Chrissakes.  

Yes, Brian's is the ultimate responsibility.  Yes, Mike is not the "villain."  But to take what we hear on the session tapes and a few interview data points as having more evidentiary value than the blanket recollections of X number of people doesn't fly for me.  It's taking certain facts in isolation to suit a narrative, and I just have a basic problem with that.  I've been in the studio enough times with enough bands to know that people don't usually vent frustrations when tape is running.  It happens, but I would expect the bulk of the tape to show the band on the best behavior.  The dissatisfaction and venting gets put in different places.  It is illuminating that Mike is participating and seems to be having fun, and it's one more piece of the puzzle, one more part of the picture.  But heavens, it ain't the whole pic.  Mike no es el villain...absolutely.  But completely irrelevant to the collapse of SMiLE?  I think that's just as silly as pinning it all on him.  Not the only reason, probably not the main reason, but it almost certainly was a factor.

Erik -- thought your post was spot-on.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Van Dyke left the first time because of resistance to his lyrics. HOWEVER...he has gone on record as saying the reason he left the second time was because of Brian's behavior. I would venture to say that Parks leaving the second time probably was what finally killed Smile.

Just my two cents...

[BananaLouie]

I would venture to say that Parks leaving the second time probably was what finally killed Smile.

An interesting view point, perhaps one that may largely acquit Mike Love of charges he "hated" SMiLE or that he played a major role in it's demise.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Actually, the Brian Wilson genius has been misunderstood. His intention all along was to allow it to come out on bootlegs and let fans decide how it goes. Sort of a do it yourself album. He tried the same thing with Sweet Insanity, but it didn't have the same effect. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

[Cam Mott]

Yeah, you keep saying this but that doesn't make it true.  Put the quotes down on the board and we can all chime in as to how to interpret what Brian said- he NEVER said the Beach Boys did not want him to scrap smile and that he did over the Beach Boys objections.  that's your interpretation of the quote.  And by the way, Brian was referring to the nonrelease of one song, Surf's Up, not the entire Smile album in the quote.

OK, here it is from KHJ's History of Rock and Roll:

BRIAN: A record producer is the one person who is responsible for the end product... the sound that you hear on the record that’s played on the radio. Like, uh, if there is any one person you would attribute the sound of the record to, you’d attribute it to the record producer. So that he is responsible for what you hear on that record.

ANNOUNCER: Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, talking about the role of a producer.

Brian has been the chief writer, producer, and arranger, leading the Beach Boys from the shaky crest of a fad--”surfing”--to the calm of consistently good music. After the release of “Good Vibrations,” it appeared that the Beach Boys might join The Beatles and Bob Dylan at the peak of rock music. Brian was working on an album called Smile, and according to everyone involved, it was a collection of magnificent tunes that would ensure their supremacy. But the album never came out, and there was a year of silence from the Beach Boys. Brian Wilson discussed it for “The History of Rock & Roll”:

BRIAN: Early 1967, I had planned to make an album, and entitle it Smile. I was working with a guy named Van Dyke Parks, who was collaborating with me on the tunes, and, uh, in the process we came up with a song called ”Surf’s Up,” and I performed that with just a piano on a documentary show made on rock music. The song “Surf’s Up” that I sang for that documentary never came out on an album, and it was supposed to come out on the Smile album, and that and a couple of other songs were junked, uh, because, I didn’t feel that they... well, I don’t know why, I just... didn’t... for some reason... didn’t want to put them in the album. And the group nearly broke up, actually split up for good, over that, uh, that one, uh... that decision of mine not to put a lot of the things that we had cut for the album Smiley Smile in the album. And, uh, so for like almost a year... we’re just now kind of getting back together. 

Because I didn’t think that the songs were... were... were right for the public at the time. And, uh, I didn’t have a feeling... a commercial feeling, about some of these songs that were never released. And, uh, maybe I, uh, sometimes you hang on to certain things, just as your own little songs, that are almost written for themselves. A lot of times, you know, a person will write, and they’ll realize later... that it’s not commercial, that what they’ve written is nice for them, but a lot of people just don’t like it.

TRACK PLAYED: "Good Vibrations"

ANNOUNCER: Brian named his favorite Beach Boys records for the “History of Rock & Roll”:

BRIAN: Some of my complete favorites are:

Darlin’
Caroline, No
Sloop John B
Don’t Worry Baby
In My Room
Good Vibrations
Little Honda
California Girls
Darlin’
and Vegetables

TRACK PLAYED: "Vegetables" (from “Smiley Smile”)

Regardless, we all know your opinions on Mike and Brian and why Smile was scrapped - there's no reason to rehash it.  I don't think you're convincing anyone that Mike loved it and was a huge supporter of it that doesn't think so already.

I don't remember trying to convince anyone of that.

[oldsurferdude]

Eric, as the purveyor and general analyst of all things pertaining to and or about the general behavior of Myke Luhv(sic)that you are, I find an all too expected absence of severe and repeated negative disussion aimed at any other band member other than his baldness. Would it ever occur to you that there may be  definitive reasons for this phenomenon or out of six original members, there just has to be a bad actor who seems willing to accept the role he took on many years ago and revels in the attention(good or evil) he garners because of it? To basically attempt to cover his tracks after all the years of  questionable behavior towards the major creative entity of this group is not only feeble but but ranks of a certain lack of authenticity. You have to adhere to what you believe about this man and that is admirable, but they all are what they are-Myke will along with the others in the band carry their legacy well beyond their final days.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well put, but it seems the general regard that the other Beach Boys have been held in is rather negative all-around. Just read Carlin's book! He's a great writer, and it's an awesome book, but throughout it seems to paint the other Beach Boys as merdaholes for merely wanting to be Beach Boys and to carry on, and any amount of expecting/wanting/wishing Brian to do anything at all is tantamount to abuse. Heroes And Villains (the book) painted a bad picture of everyone (Brian was spared nothing): but that's not the point either. Only Stebbins, as an author, seems to get it and know where it's at.

I'll go dig up some examples of this to back up this post (from Carlin's book and elsewhere).

[Wirestone]

Well put, but it seems the general regard that the other Beach Boys have been held in is rather negative all-around. Just read Carlin's book! He's a great writer, and it's an awesome book, but throughout it seems to paint the other Beach Boys as merdaholes for merely wanting to be Beach Boys and to carry on, and any amount of expecting/wanting/wishing Brian to do anything at all is tantamount to abuse. Heroes And Villains (the book) painted a bad picture of everyone (Brian was spared nothing): but that's not the point either. Only Stebbins, as an author, seems to get it and know where it's at.

I'll go dig up some examples of this to back up this post (from Carlin's book and elsewhere).

Carlin's book is a biography of Brian. Not of the Beach Boys. He interviewed every one of them still living, and did extensive research and interviews with other people close to Brian and the rest of the group.

If that is his conclusion, then he based it on the evidence he gained as a writer and reporter. And it's not as if he paints Brian in an incredibly flattering way, either.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's not the information that he reports that I take (light) issue with, rather it's HOW he reports it, says it, communicates it.

[rab2591]

Agreed with Wirestone.

Mike Love is an ass....he even admits it. And from what I remember Carlin painted a fair picture of the guys....the Boys weren't perfect, but Carlin always showed their bright areas.

But I'll have to read the book again, it's been a couple years.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Agreed with Wirestone.

Mike Love is an ass....he even admits it. And from what I remember Carlin painted a fair picture of the guys....the Boys weren't perfect, but Carlin always showed their bright areas.

But I'll have to read the book again, it's been a couple years.

See, it always comes back to something like this! No one cares to be informed or enlightened. They have an opinion that they enjoy having and that's it.

Nevermind.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Ya know, maybe Mike Love is an ass.

Problem is, so what?

Maybe I'd just love to be able to be a Beach Boys fan without someone having to constantly feel the need to remind me, convince me, ram down my throat a constant blabber of "but, but, but Mike Love's an ass"!

It's just annoying.

[rab2591]

You're harping on Carlin for being negative about the guys: Carlin is just saying it how it is. He doesn't have a personal vendetta against Mike. He has no personal gain in this. Mike said in a recent interview that he IS an ass....it's just his sense of humor. I didn't bring it up to piss you off, I'm just defending Carlin's point of view.

I think Mike Love is one of the most important people in Rock n Roll history....and when people say HE was the reason for SMiLE's demise I laugh at the ignorance. I do have an opinion, and I could care less if anyone agrees with me. Mike is an ass. He's also a brilliant artist. Nuff said.

[Jonathan Blum]

At least the box goes some way to clarifying this. With the caveat that any "WTF is this" moments would most likely be edited out (and the fabled Cabin Essence session is apparently missing), Mike seems relatively calm and sings his parts without question. He even sounds like he's having fun on most of them! Not MYke Luv!

Listening to the box/sessions in chronological order the other day really drove home that Brian really sounds like he's unravelling towards the end of '66. I could easily believe, although there is of course no evidence this happened, that even questions from the group about the music could rattle him and cause him to doubt the record.

...Also worth pointing out that because of the roll-back-and-overdub nature of the vocal work, a big chunk of what went on in the sessions with the actual band is lost to us.  For example, Al said he got honked off about doing the "Swedish Frog" grunting and moaning, but that's pretty much unrecorded.  If that survived, people would be treating it as an iconic moment of something-or-other, no doubt...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Yeah! Hours and hours of Mike and the other Beach Boys brow-beating Brian and begging/commanding him to scrap Smile just MUST not be there unrecorded somewhere proving us all right no matter what the actual recorded evidence shows (namely that we have gorgeous Beach Boys Smile vocals issued by Capitol in a beautiful Smile Sessions package)!

I get the point, but let's not get carried away with assumptions in order to prove...... assumptions.

[rogerlancelot]

I love Carlin's book and even get a bit teary-eyed when I bust it out every 6 months or so (one of those books I read over again). The part about his "interview" with Mike and the e-mail he received from Bruce are the bits that make me laugh out loud. La la la ooh yeah baby gettin' down funky chicken. I apologize for that last sentence as it wasn't actually a real sentence and may have seemed irrelevant or inappropriate or even perhaps off-topic. But in the long run, Mike will probably always have a poor reputation in the history of things and former Mayor McCheeze does the Charleston on my hamster while I smoke the wrong end of a canon. Arr!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Hey, I love Carlin's book and bust it out frequently, but still stand behind my opinion. But the last two posts (not including my own) are spot on and my head of steam has turned to honey (dark Belgian beer actually) and I shall put on side B of MIU and hopefully be fast asleep before it gets to Winds Of Change!

[hypehat]

Ya know, maybe Mike Love is an ass.

Problem is, so what?

I don't think anyone (apart from oldsurferdude, bless him) is going 'Mike killed my puppy and he must be stopped'. Like Rab says, Mike Love IS an ass, but that doesn't ruin his stellar contributions to the band throughout. Although his stage banter does come close at points  

I also wasn't insinuating that all the horrible and debilitating arguments were happening on the sessions where they were overdubbing. But cheers, Jon Blum.

Dude, I wish i had some dark Belgian beer right now. *Sips coffee forlornly*

[Disney Boy (1985)]

A few years ago Brian, rather bizarrely, claimed in a Q magazine question and answer feature that 'Mike and Dennis hated Smile. They hated it'. I remember at the time being baffled by such a statement, particuarly in light of Dennis' famous 'Smile makes Pet Sounds stink' quote. But it just goes to show how easy it is to get muddled re who said/liked what etc, particuarly when Brian himself often doesn't seem too sure.
Regarding Mike not liking Smile: watch the Endless Harmony documentary, in which Mike states 'I just didn't resonate with the music'. So while he might not have HATED Smile per se, he wasn't - by his own admission - it's greatest fan. I like Mike, but he does have a habit of rewriting history depending on whichever way the winds blowing at whichever particular time.

[cablegeddon]

 It's important to know that Mike and Brian had a deal before recording Pet Sounds. Brian would get full control over one album and then they would record a more commercial album next. I guess Good Vibrations happened and then Brian wasn't willing to stand by his word (maybe rightfully so).

I think Mike had his reasons to "hate" Smile.

[Andrew G. Doe]

A few years ago Brian, rather bizarrely, claimed in a Q magazine question and answer feature that 'Mike and Dennis hated Smile. They hated it'. I remember at the time being baffled by such a statement, particuarly in light of Dennis' famous 'Smile makes Pet Sounds stink' quote. But it just goes to show how easy it is to get muddled re who said/liked what etc, particuarly when Brian himself often doesn't seem too sure.

Brian, bless him and his wonderful music, is hardly a reliable source of info: his memory is not only suspect but also seriously compromised, and his recent announcements re: any reunion (prior to the announcement of same) are ample evidence of his messing with people's heads: loved the comment that he was glad it was finally out as he was running out of things to say* ! 

[* - or as my parents would have said, lying...]

[Micha]

Good call Adam! Let's really be careful not to push too far in the other direction! But I don't think we really are yet. What this has basically come down to is..... everyone's point of view is essentially correct!

Mike had issues with Smile which certainly contributed to Brian's state. Some issues might have been perfectly valid. Regardless, he probably could have handled it better.

Brian made the decision to scrap Smile based upon a host of factors. No one factor seems to be THE reason. In fact, if there had been merely one main reason, Brian probably could have overcome it.

So, this being the situation: persisting that it was Mike Mike Mike Myke makes no real sense and the motivation for insisting so is puzzling.

Although my opinion might mean little, I'd like to say that I agree with every one of your points.