Barnyard Mistake in Pressing of Smile Sessions CD?

[Jason]

Keep in mind that you're on a forum with Beach Boys fans and everyone knows that you could serve many of them sh*t on a silver platter and they still wouldn't be satisfied.

[Jonas]

you could serve many of them sh*t on a silver platter and they still wouldn't be satisfied.

Who would be satisfied with sh*t on a silver platter to begin with??

[Jason]

you could serve many of them sh*t on a silver platter and they still wouldn't be satisfied.

Who would be satisfied with sh*t on a silver platter to begin with??

Let's poll all the Keepin' the Summer Alive fans and find out.

[SMiLE Brian]

you could serve many of them sh*t on a silver platter and they still wouldn't be satisfied.

Who would be satisfied with sh*t on a silver platter to begin with??

Let's poll all the Keepin' the Summer Alive fans and find out.

Bought KTSA and definitely know it is sh*t

[Jason]

you could serve many of them sh*t on a silver platter and they still wouldn't be satisfied.

Who would be satisfied with sh*t on a silver platter to begin with??

Let's poll all the Keepin' the Summer Alive fans and find out.

Bought KTSA and definitely know it is sh*t

Good man. Have a piece of lettuce.

Yeah, it is worse than sh*t. It's like whale sh*t. You don't get much lower besides the devil's deuces.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Keep in mind that you're on a forum with Beach Boys fans and everyone knows that you could serve many of them sh*t on a silver platter and they still wouldn't be satisfied.

Actually, I don't consider myself a Beach Boy fan - I mean, I am, but I don't take a great sense of identity from enjoying the BB's work. I'd say I was equally (or more) a fan of Dylan, the Pixies, early-mid Radiohead, the Beatles, Syd Barrett, Muddy Waters, The Band, The Stooges, "Soft Bulletin" Lips etc... I love music, basically, and especially good pop music.

SMiLE does have a special significance for me - partly due to its genuine musical quality, part its tragic-to-triumphant story, part the interactivity it's offered me since I discovered the first mp3s in 98-99, plus all the other factors. But frankly I don't think I'm informed enough, experienced enough or basically just charged up enough in these boards or BB-fandom to complain for the sake of complaining, if that's what's being implied.

And I don't think monicker or the others pointing out technical flubs on the first CD are either, in this case. It's not so much a matter of questioning editorial choices like fly-ins or crossfades, for which there are both credible criticisms and defenses of - that's a conversation, in the way that identifying a dozen clear and easily correctable technical mistakes isn't. That just looks like sloppiness, and though I'm thrilled with all the other material on the box, and am going to get onto "rolling my own" sharpish, I don't think it's at all unreasonable or precious to express concern and disappointment that I'm now going to have use an older, folded down version of Cabin Essence when there seems to be absolutely no reason that with a tiny bit more care and concentration, a definitive mono version made by real masters of their craft (like AB and ML) could be playing on my Itunes right now.

If I buy a DVD of a great film like, say, "Rules of the Game", and the sound goes out of sync for a few seconds, I'm not going to hate the movie or burn it in disgust as a result. Most of the film will still be fine, and enjoyable, and thought-provoking, and compelling. Neither am I going to expect Criterion to print a whole new edition for the sake of those few seconds. But I will be taken out of the experience and need to get back into it; and I will still be utterly within reason - Renoir fan, BBs fan or no - to express my disappointment that someone didn't notice that the sync went out and did something about it while there was still time to do so.

I mean, the box set is, for me, still a clear 9.75 out of 10. But the things that annoy me, at least, aren't things like the song structures or fly-ins - someone was going to complain about any editorial decisions made by Boyd or Linnet; they couldn't win on those - but silly little things that if they could have been fixed, should have been. Hopefully the upcoming iconfetch interview gives us a chance to pose those questions and Mark and Alan a chance to answer them.

[The Demon]

They could be absolutely right.  I just find it odd that the same concerns weren't raised with certain things before, like "Cabinessence."  Obviously this stuff was heard before it was released.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Heard by us or by those working on/releasing it? "Cabin Essence" was released as a vinyl single - I heard it through a needledrop on youtube - so perhaps the assumption was that wasn't exactly what we'd be getting as a final product? I certainly wouldn't have been listening as closely or in the same way as to a final CD version. The errors on most of the other tracks mentioned hadn't been available before the weekend, and if they had only as low-quality samples. And, in fact, the version of "Barnyard" heard on the stream seems to have included the stereo bvs, so who's to say what other things changed or went awry on their way to pressing the discs?

[Wirestone]

It's not so much a matter of questioning editorial choices like fly-ins or crossfades, for which there are both credible criticisms and defenses of - that's a conversation, in the way that identifying a dozen clear and easily correctable technical mistakes isn't.

This is a very valuable distinction to draw, and I'm not sure that everybody is making it.

There have been a couple of obvious, clear errors spotted. That is, the missing Barnyard vox and the H&V stereo speed. I will, in a charitable mood, add the Cabinessence pop/hiss issue. These are important to point out, and this is what a message board is for! These should have been addressed before such an expensive and expansive archival release went out. Other choices are aesthetic, and we should argue them as such, not as evidence of "incompetence" or bad faith.

And I'm sorry -- I have to call Monicker out on his post. I'm currently debating whether he actually believes and hears all these things, or if he's just putting us all on. And what's with the Mark L. hate?

I hear virtually nothing of what Moniker is talking about.

Nothing.

Nada.

Ziltch.

Went back, turned up the tracks. Surely there's something here, I told myself. Why would someone write so much about this? Surely there are glaring flaws waiting to be found! Still didn't hear 'em.

Heard a light pop -- or at least what seemed to be a light pop -- when I turned Cabinessence up to full blast. It was, indeed, at 1:01. But did the song sound different before and after? Not that I could tell. Interesting, too, that all of the "incompetence" on display has to do with things like the volume of tape hiss and very subtle, very very quiet digital tones that could easily be confused with everyday tinnitus!

So anyway, I'm just chalking this all up to an elaborate practical joke. Good work! You nearly had me.

[runnersdialzero]

I hear virtually nothing of what Moniker is talking about.

I do! All of it, in fact, and I heard almost all of it before he said anything.

I just can't see how the guy who put together the stereo Pet Sounds, a religious experience of sorts due to sheer sonic awesomeness, managed to make these flubs. God love 'im for all his hard work here and elsewhere, I have a world of respect for him, but errors and sonic oddities is errors and sonic oddities no matter how you slice it.

Also, the "Cabinessence" error appears during both chorii in the song, not just the once.

[Wirestone]

How loud are you listening and under what cicumstances? I'm genuinely curious, because I have noises in my head that are louder than some of the things people are talking about.

[Chris Brown]

I hear virtually nothing of what Moniker is talking about.

I do! All of it, in fact, and I heard almost all of it before he said anything.

I just can't see how the guy who put together the stereo Pet Sounds, a religious experience of sorts due to sheer sonic awesomeness, managed to make these flubs. God love 'im for all his hard work here and elsewhere, I have a world of respect for him, but errors and sonic oddities is errors and sonic oddities no matter how you slice it.

Also, the "Cabinessence" error appears during both chorii in the song, not just the once.

For whatever it's worth, I hear maybe half of them, although I haven't yet had a chance to listen on high quality headphones.  Yes, the ones I heard were a bit annoying, but certainly not enough to take me "out of the moment" as it were. 

[runnersdialzero]

How loud are you listening and under what cicumstances? I'm genuinely curious, because I have noises in my head that are louder than some of the things people are talking about.

A pair of speakers and with my ears?

T'be fair, the "sine wave" thing in "Da Da" is present on the '93 box set mix and even then is a pretty minor complaint. A few of these are minor complaints, really (imo), but a few of them are legit not good edits (imo).

[monicker]

Wirestone, I don't appreciate what you have just written and i do not take this sort of thing lightly. It is preposterous of you to suggest that i am making this stuff up or trying to pull a practical joke, etc. simply because YOU can't hear it. The only thing that that tells me is that your ears are not reliable and your hearing is not too sharp. That is not intended as a jab at you, simply put: if you don't hear this stuff (which is very obvious to me and just pops out--believe me, i would love to not be able to hear this stuff because it ruins a lot of the music) then your critical ear is not up to par. Sorry if that comes across as arrogant.

If you think i'm full of sh*t, how full of sh*t could i be if i'm trying to think of a feasible way to petition Capitol records to issue corrected versions of these as lossless downloads to those who purchased the box set? Like i said, i don't take this lightly and i take considerable issue with you suggesting that i am being insincere or that this is all some sort of ruse.

The "Mark L. hate," as you put it, is not so oversimplified as you suggest. I am simply highly critical of his work because of what he's demonstrated. I have no personal agenda against him. In fact, and i should have pointed this out earlier: who knows if this is the result of Linett or Boyd or the third co-producer, whose name is escaping me at the moment. But, seeing as how Linett, by title, is the engineer, and the others are not, i would think the chief responsibility in this work falls on him. Also, Alan Boyd mentioned in his Icon Fetch that he personally put the Vegetables track together (on Final Cut Pro! Have you ever edited audio on FCP? It's not a good platform for audio editing!) and that one is flawless. However, as i said before, regardless of who actually did the hands on work, there were surely more ears, at some point or another, to evaluate the work and make sure that everything was okay, and yet no one caught this stuff.

Anyway, i haven't even scratched the surface on listing all the issues. I am really surprised that more people aren't hearing this stuff and bothered by it. Like i said, i would love to not be able to hear them.

Also, i think it's been made abundantly clear that these are not aesthetic issues that are being called out, but technical errors.

P.S. I do not have tinnitus.

[Wirestone]

I call 'em like I hear 'em. You are overreacting to something that is, at its most glaring, barely audible.

As I said, I do believe that obvious errors should be fixed. But the strength of your opinions alone does not transform aesthetic concerns into technical ones. Sorry.

[mammy blue]

You know, I kinda wish I never created this thread. I really was just wondering what happened with the Barnyard vocs, that's all.

[Wirestone]

Oh, it would have come out in the wash anyway. The board is like that.

And my flippant responses aside, I am interested in hearing the incredibly different experiences people are having while they experience this album. It's fascinating -- and this thread really does make me wonder. Digital technology clearly made the final album sequence possible, but it seems to have contributed its share of glitches.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hey Wirestone and mammy blue -

Sorry if I've contributed to a hijack of the thread/dampening peoples' thrill over this amazing event. Since the Barnyard confusion might well be the result of a technical c*ck-up, (most of) the other concerns moniker listed struck me at least as relevant to a larger discussion of objective technical - as opposed to subjective editorial - mistakes that made it onto the discs.

I'd say I heard about half of what monicker identifies before his list appeared; and I noticed them without even listening too closely. Also, I'm willing to defend his tone and statements for the most part (I'm not sure the WC transition, for instance, is a technical error; it strikes me more as an editorial decision, which can be questioned, sure, but not categorically identified as a "mistake").

What monicker has written doesn't strike me as an all out attack on Mark, or anybody, on the basis of personality, personal enmity or even differing aesthetics - just disappointment and confusion over why such niggling mistakes got through the filter and onto the finished product. As Wirestone points out, different peoples' reactions to the glitches - or if they can even hear them at all - is fascinating, but I don't think it's fair to state outright that monicker, or anyone else, is "overracting", even if we want to take issue about whether the factors causing the reaction are "barely audible". The one thing that really is subjective in all this is the big question - "Do those small things matter considering the overall triumph, in an artistic and historical sense, of this incredible release?"

All of us, even given we can hear the things identified in this thread, will have a different answer, and rationally not one is more true or correct than any other. Personally, to me - yeah it matters on a song-by-song basis. Glitches like these, on a major release 45 years in the making, should have been picked up and fixed. Am I going to return my box? Of course not. I am not going to enjoy the other four discs? Of course I am. But I can still regret the instances of sloppy editing - if that is indeed what they are.

Just as others can not be bothered by them if they wish. This is a discussion forum, and everyone seems to be being civil - what better place to share our small criticisms, as well as major praise?

[Micha]

the amount of technical/engineering blunders all over disc 1 is staggering.

List just a few. If there are a "staggering number," it should be easy. The thing this thread is about -- the CD 2 version of Barnyard -- doesn't count because you specified disc 1.

And you said "blunders," not "decisions that I disagree with."

I will say the vocals at about 3:32 in the stereo mix of Heroes and Villains do indeed sound weirdly fast for a few seconds.

Any serious listening should be done with a pair of good quality studio headphones. These are just a few off the top of my head.

Cabinessence: first chorus: at 1:01 the tone of the entire recoding changes, the hiss changes dramatically and it sounds like some weird filter gets turned on. This one is so bad i don't even want to think about it because there's no other way to get Cabinessence is mono, so we are forced to use this version with the audio equivalent of a stain. Oh, before that, going into the chorus from the verse there is a click/pop, i.e. a sloppy edit. Someone didn't check the very tail end of the verse or the very beginning of the chorus to see if it played without a click. 

Look: intro: when the trumpet comes in the hiss increases and comes in sloppily, i.e. a very fast/short fade in wasn't applied. This isn't rocket science, guys.

CIFOTM (this one is appalling in how bad it is): verse: right before the mute trumpet comes in, the hiss increases dramatically. It doesn't fade in, it just pops in, THEN...the extra hiss totally cuts out BEFORE the trumpet phrase even ends. I can't even comprehend what could have caused that sort of anomaly. But did no one hear this during the entire time this was being worked on??

Holidays: all sorts of digital artefacts /clicking/popping going on with the pitch shifted vocals.

H&V: 3:11 the start of the a cappella section (barbershop) there is a nasty digital click/pop. This one we have known since the mp3 of that video contest.

Barnshine fade: that is NOT a proper fade. It sounds more like a high pass filter was applied at the end, as the fade is abrupt and the tone/sound quality of the entire recording changes dramatically. Something weird is going on there, too, with a change in hiss. Overall, throughout the entire 19 tracks, there are sections that have weird bad shifts in the hiss.

Wind Chimes: listen to the transition/edit of the piano break going back into the chorus. That is the work of a professional?

Dada: 1:57-2:00 during the long rest where there is just the decay of the piano, there is a VERY high pitched and very quiet beeping, like one tone, like a sine wave, it then stops when the music kicks back in.

These are just a few. Like i said, if i have the energy to do it, after i have sat with the music long enough, i am going to write up a review and enumerate all of these things. If it was one or two instances, fine, but there are little clicks and pops ALL OVER tracks 1-19 and generally sloppy edits (i.e. not clean). It's crazy that this got by so many people (or at least two) before being sent for mastering. There are a bunch of other things too, but honestly, i'd like to try to enjoy the glorious music and not focus so much on this stuff. It's hard though.

I don't doubt those things you mention are there - but I'm happy to say I didn't notice ANY of that listening over speakers, and don't plan to try and find them. The only thing I noted is the hiss on CE, which I only discovered listening over headphones weeks ago, and to me the hiss indicates the chorusses weren't mixed by Mark in 2011 but are 1966 Brian test mixes.

Lucky me, I can enjoy the music without minding or even noting any technical problems.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I've not listened on head phones but over speakers, and at normal volume - like 99.95% of people here, and in the real world - and repeatedly... and I don't hear any problems. Even now I 'know' what to listen for, it's insignificant. How long do these problems add up to ? 10 seconds, 20, 30... a minute ?  Out of a 5CD set ?

I say, you're over-reacting. You're listening to the signal path, and not the music. More to the point, you're pulling a Cohen and messing with other's enjoyment of something very special. Did you complain about the (competitively) horrible quality of the boots ? Lots of hiss there.

[Wirestone]

You're listening to the signal path, and not the music.

This.

More to the point, you're pulling a Cohen and messing with other's enjoyment of something very special.

Also this.

[runnersdialzero]

Nop.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Some folk have been listening to this longer than the vast majority of the posters here, and no-one has raised concerns, until now.

Not saying you're wrong, but was there the need to explain in such depth on the forum ? I'm sure Mark & Alan are thrilled to read how you're ignoring the vast bulk of the set and zeroing in on the perceived technical errors. I think it's symptomatic of the mindset of certain people on this board that they can focus on tiny, tiny 'errors' like that, but the fact that there's a whole set of vocals missing from one track doesn't concern them. "No technical errors there, fine by me". Back in 2001, I noticed there was a poor edit in the stereo "H&V" on Hawthorne CA, but did I flail away and rend garments ? Nope - just shrugged and moved on. I'm guessing you're shocked at the very obvious edit in "Strawberry Fields Forever" as well.

[The_Holy_Bee]

I think AGD and Wirestone make a very good point, which is by concentrating on comparatively minor negatives, we ignore the vast bulk of great work contained within. Guys like Alan and Mark - not to mention the man himself BW - who have spent decades working on this material deserve far more praise than condemnation. Of that, there's no doubt. For contributing to any such misrepresentation, I apologize.

On the other hand, having only heard the two discs - I'm in NZ, which doesn't even have a release date for the box, so happily it's on the way from the States - and posting in a thread which has the word "Mistake" in the title, is it really inappropriate to celebrate the whole while still being disappointed in a few specifics? I'm sure Alan and Mark are confident enough in their work to cope with- and view in the way they are intended - a few valid comments on the few technical matters that could have been improved?

As soon as the full box arrives, I intend to contribute fully, and I've no doubt ecstatically, to the communal joy over this project's fruition. Even now, I'll say Fire and Dada - with those fly ins - ROCK MY WORLD. The latter, particularly, has never sounded fuller or better to these ears. Vega-tables, echoing the statements of almost everyone here, is now the definitive edit of that tune. Loving the heightened percussion in Wind Chimes... and so much more. Since the subject of this thread was about something we would have liked to have been more scrupulously checked, it seemed totally appropriate to discuss these issueshere. In other threads I have no doubt my, and others', full and sincere joy and gratitude to all those involved will be extensively shared.

Don't think we're not appreciative of the whole; we just might wish there was an extra round of checks before things like fluctuating hiss, bad cuts and (possibly) the wrong take made it into plastic. Is expressing that really ungrateful or rude? I've paid for my box set. I'm a member on a Beach Boys forum for which the main topic for months has been this release. I am sure when the full box arrives I will love it. If I don't, I guess can head over to a Bob Dylan or movie forum to discuss it, but I can't imagine that would be a more appropriate venue to do so.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Sorry, accidental repost.