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Author Topic: How do YOU think Smile would have went?  (Read 34586 times)
Summertime Blooz
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« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2011, 07:36:42 PM »

I have no doubt that the original SMiLE would have ended with one of these songs,

Surf's Up (most likely)
Good Vibrations (not so)
or
Cabin Essence (IMHO very likely)

Why?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE INCREDIBLE FADES! THE ALBUM NEEDS TO FADE OUT YOU KNOW!
I don't really see your point here because the Barnshine section does have a fade out. Cabinessence could have bee the end of side 1.
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« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2011, 07:39:48 PM »

(Prayer)
H&V
Wonderful
Holiday
Cabin Essence
Fire
Child

GV
Wind
Look
Veg
Worms
Surfs Up

How it would have gone? No, since Brian seemingly discarded Look and Holidays. But this is how I like it now. This works for me. This is how it SHOULD have went.
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Summertime Blooz
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« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2011, 07:49:22 PM »

*angry post about how that list wasn't written by Brian, how he's recording the END of a song when he says that, and then used it as the fade of potentially the lead single of the album not long afterwards, and how ending your avantgarde spiritual pop statement with You Are My Sunshine would be the uncoolest thing imaginable. all to say you're really wrong*
Are there other instances of Brian in the studio referring to the final section of a song as "the big finale"?  I don't listen to all that stuff. As for the '66 tracklist, it doesn't seem logical to me that the song titles were just drawn out of a hat. To me, that is "strong evidence". I don't make any claims as to knowing what is right or "really wrong" as far as what Smile's final form would have been in 67. If some fans like to have their own fan mixes end with Surf's Up or You're Welcome I'm cool with that.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the tracklist was also a preliminary track sequencing.  The sleeves that were printed up based on the tracklist specifically said "see label for correct playing order."  No, the titles weren't randomly drawn, but it's a pretty big leap of logic to suggest that it was anything more than a list of the most completed songs intended to get the record company off Brian's back. 
I offhand can't think of one album in my collection where the tracklist printed on the back of the album sleeve bears no resemblance whatsoever to the actual running order of the tracks. There probably are some albums like that, but it doesn't seem logical TO ME that the "see label for correct playing order" line completely invalidates the order of the list that was given to Capitol as some others think it does.
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« Reply #103 on: December 01, 2011, 08:17:00 PM »

Considering the list wasn't in Brian's hand, the slick says "See label for correct playing order", the album was far from complete, and the tracklist flows like a post-menopausal woman on steroids who used to be a man (both in a past life and in this life), I really can't put even the least bit of stock in it. It's a list of songs, not a tracklist.
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« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2011, 12:34:11 AM »

The Old Master Painter is the last track on the Capitol tracklisting of Dec. 66. On the TSS Disc 3 Track 6 at 5:55 refers to Part 2 of You Were My Sunshine as "the big finale".

I must listen to that later today. Does he say it is the big finale of what exactly? Could be the big finale of the single...  Or the the big finale of Americana section of "SMiLE" ("movement?)... Or indeed the big finale of the album.
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« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2011, 02:53:36 AM »

Considering the list wasn't in Brian's hand, the slick says "See label for correct playing order", the album was far from complete, and the tracklist flows like a post-menopausal...

I don't see any significance in who physically wrote the list - it almost certainly came from the LP producer. It's inconceivable that in 1966 someone decided to go behind Brian's back and send the Capitol art department a tracklist he didn't approve. Of course, you're right about it not being an actual sequence - hence "see label for correct running order."

For me the sequencing is a red herring - I suspect it wasn't that much of a concern in 1966 - at least not compared to editing/mixing the sections within the individual songs. It isn't like the LP was shelved because he couldn't figure out how to sequence it.
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« Reply #106 on: December 02, 2011, 03:47:36 AM »



I don't see any significance in who physically wrote the list - it almost certainly came from the LP producer. It's inconceivable that in 1966 someone decided to go behind Brian's back and send the Capitol art department a tracklist he didn't approve. Of course, you're right about it not being an actual sequence - hence "see label for correct running order."


The thing is, he didn't write it, which makes it much more difficult to say that! Either Carl or Diane, who are the main suspects, had that kind of information. I can just picture something like this happening...

"Hey Brian, Capitol just rang, they want a final tracklist for the back cover. They've been on at you for months about it, apparently."

"Er, um, there isn't one."

"What?"

"It's not finished, alright? Now f*ck off, I'm turning the living room into a gym."

"Well, what have we recorded..... Heroes & Villains, obviously.... He'd put Good Vibrations on it... We've just started this thing called Vegetables...." and so on
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« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2011, 03:51:22 AM »


I offhand can't think of one album in my collection where the tracklist printed on the back of the album sleeve bears no resemblance whatsoever to the actual running order of the tracks. There probably are some albums like that, but it doesn't seem logical TO ME that the "see label for correct playing order" line completely invalidates the order of the list that was given to Capitol as some others think it does.


Wait, what? The fact that no other album has 'see label for playing order' ensures that this is the real SMiLE sequence?


Are you feeling alright?
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All roads lead to Kokomo. Exhaustive research in time travel has conclusively proven that there is no alternate universe WITHOUT Kokomo. It would've happened regardless.
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« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2011, 04:13:17 AM »

As I remember Brian turned in an early track list and a revised track list for Pet Sounds. Did either one reflect the final album sequence? There is a track list for Wild Honey with revisions does it reflect the final sequence?
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« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2011, 06:29:09 AM »

The thing is, he didn't write it, which makes it much more difficult to say that! Either Carl or Diane, who are the main suspects, had that kind of information. I can just picture something like this happening...

"Hey Brian, Capitol just rang, they want a final tracklist for the back cover. They've been on at you for months about it, apparently."

"Er, um, there isn't one."

"What?"

"It's not finished, alright? Now f*ck off, I'm turning the living room into a gym."

"Well, what have we recorded..... Heroes & Villains, obviously.... He'd put Good Vibrations on it... We've just started this thing called Vegetables...." and so on

"How many do we have now?"

"Eleven."

"All right, one more track... oh, The Old Master Painter, right. Although - that could be part of another track, put it in brackets. Wait, no, that's a cover, it must be mentioned on the sleeve."

"I've already put it in brackets now."

"Cross them out."
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« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM »

Vega-Tables just doesn't work. It wasn't even close to a finished state by any conceivable 12 song SMiLE timeline. 

How's that?

Also, what constitutes a "track"?

Could you imagine the Cornucopia demo closing a finished SMiLE? Sure, a finished April Vega-Tables might work, but who knows whether or not April Vega-Tables would've been the finished result on a January release?

Well, Pet Sounds had the A-side of a single at the end of side two: Caroline, No. It is even highlighted on the front cover. Actually Party too had a single at the end of side two, although that was released after the album. Pet Sounds on the other hand had originally not a single track at the start of side two - GOK was released as a B-side and only some time after the album. Your claim where singles were "forced" to be placed does not hold up to reality.

Okay, for one, Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent after the Party album was released - The Little Girl I Once Knew was the intended single (and it didn't make the Top Ten, which led to Barbara Ann's release in the first place). For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit. Caroline No was an exception in the fact that A. Wasn't a top ten single and B. Wasn't released in the Beach Boys name originally - Good Vibrations (and Sloop John B for that matter) was both of those things.

Trying to put Good Vibrations anywhere but the end/beginning of a side (or at the very beginning of the album, but that's laughable) doesn't hold up to reality. Even the Beatles were subjected to this treatment on their American releases (until Sgt. Pepper). Today! was subjected to it. Summer Days was subjected to it. Pet Sounds was subjected to it. There weren't any other singles out like those aforementioned albums, either. In any conceivable SMiLE timeframe, Good Vibrations was the only one.
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« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2011, 09:41:03 AM »

The thing is, he didn't write it, which makes it much more difficult to say that! Either Carl or Diane, who are the main suspects, had that kind of information. I can just picture something like this happening...

"Hey Brian, Capitol just rang, they want a final tracklist for the back cover. They've been on at you for months about it, apparently."
"Er, um, there isn't one."
"What?"
"It's not finished, alright? Now f*ck off, I'm turning the living room into a gym."
"Well, what have we recorded..... Heroes & Villains, obviously.... He'd put Good Vibrations on it...


Sigh. I'll take Cam Mott’s years of researching the Capitol Art Department – including grilling the SMILE art director - over what "you can picture"..  

Since Brian produced the SMILE sessions we can be certain the handwritten list, regardless who wrote it, came from him. All artwork had to be approved by the LP producer before being printed - this was Capitol policy as confirmed to Cam Mott by SMILE art director George Osaka. The fact a list was submitted to and received by Capitol and work was underway (466,000 front slicks, book design/photos, rear mock up) is proof Brian approved the handwritten list and cover design with track list and "see label for order."  No way a written track list is accepted, designed & revised if it came from someone other than Brian.  Unlikely Capitol authorizes printing 466,000 cover slicks for an job with incomplete art.

Do people think someone went behind Brian's back and turned in a track list to Capitol without his knowledge? How could they get away with this? Imagine George Harrison going to EMI with "here is the track list for the new LP, no need to contact Mr. Martin, go ahead and print the LP sleeves." What was Brian going to do when he received the LP jacket and says "where the f*** is Holidays?"
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« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2011, 10:50:28 AM »


Okay, for one, Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent after the Party album was released - The Little Girl I Once Knew was the intended single (and it didn't make the Top Ten, which led to Barbara Ann's release in the first place). For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.

No, it seems that both the Barbara Ann single and Sloop John B on Pet Sounds were Brian Wilson's ideas, even over the discouragement of others.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=f03a4bae0d7f8dafb7480a289915c56a&topic=4725.0

Just another myth that has been passed around for years.
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« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2011, 02:21:06 PM »

Vega-Tables just doesn't work. It wasn't even close to a finished state by any conceivable 12 song SMiLE timeline. 

How's that?

Also, what constitutes a "track"?

Could you imagine the Cornucopia demo closing a finished SMiLE? Sure, a finished April Vega-Tables might work, but who knows whether or not April Vega-Tables would've been the finished result on a January release?

Ah, you meant "Vega-Tables" as an album closer, gotcha - my mistake.
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« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2011, 02:40:58 PM »

This really isn't too hard to figure out...

1) Handwritten tracklist
Just because it's not in Brian's handwriting doesn't mean it's not valid.  It clearly came from a close source to the center of the operation.  To discredit it because of the handwriting instead of the content is silly.  In my view, it is simply the list of the likely contenders for the album, not truely the correct running order (hence the note).  The things it excludes were either fragments or unfinished instrumentals and not real contenders for SMiLE anyways...  Lots of neat things on the cutting room floor, but that was the nature of the beast.  So, you can start with those twelve tracks, plus Our Prayer (for an uncredited 13th).  

2) Side openers
As common practice at the time for pop albums, the lead single would open the album--as Wouldn't It be Nice did on Pet Sounds.  So after Our Prayer, we have Heroes and Villains, which is what many people believe anyways.  Furthermore, we know it most likely would have been the February Cantina version.  The theoretical "Part 2" probably would not have been on the album, staying as an exclusive b-side to the 7".  Now, since we know that Good Vibrations was not originally part of the album, but capitol pushed it on, the logical placement would be the opening of side B, fitting the same exact scenario as Sloop John B on Pet Sounds.  This is again something many already figured.  GV's reason to be concluding these modern sequences was for the purpose of the live show: it's a set closer, not an album closer!  

3) Side closers
George Martin once said that you'd always want to end the sides of an album with the song that could not be logically followed or topped.  I believe Brian was adopting this policy because not only it makes bombastic albums, but he heeded to compete with his brothers across the ocean.  What two songs from the remaining 10 fit that bill?  Quite obviously Surf's Up and Cabin Essence.  I've always maintained that Surf's Up was intentionally written as the sort of epic ending to the album, Brian's A Day In The Life.  So if we place Surf's Up at the conclusion of side B, that leaves Cabin Essence as an excellent close for side A.  

4) remaining meat of the SMiLE sandwich
Now we have 8 songs left: Do You Like Worms?, Wonderful, Child is Father, Old Master Painter, I'm In Great Shape, Vege-Tables, Wind Chimes, and The Elements.  This is the tough one...  How do we fill in this meat of the SMiLE sandwich now that we've constructed the bread of H&V and Cabin Essence, and Good Vibrations and Surf's Up?  

It's really impossible to say.  Did Brian have a dual concept or was this just a collection of experimental pop-songs?  Judging by the twelve contenders, I'd say you could possibly devide them into the two concepts Elemental & Americana just as has been suggested by Dominic so long ago.  I do remember Brian saying back in 2004 that his intention was to make two suites back in 67, but now there's three (for the live show).   Also, if he was going to create an entire album of Good Vibrations-esque modular songwriting, logic would dictate that that would include interconnected/segued songs: you would end up having two continuous sides of music.  I don't think that was just a clever construction by Darian, but something that was intended all along (although the specific connections were made by him).  

So with that said, how can we match up these songs in what way to fill out two 4-song groups, surrounded by their designated 'bread'?  Putting aside the conceptual analysis as it's been done to death and is very subjective, let's try to look at the more musical, something more objective.  What things can we match up?   Wonderful's cold ending was meant to be a hard edit into the next song...  
When I first heard the segue from Wonderful into Look on the live bootlegs of the SMiLE tour, I nearly pooped my pants.  OF COURSE!  Why didn't I think of that before!?  A common musical arrangement of some of the songs is that arpeggiated piano phrase, found in Look, Wonderful and the minor-key verse of Child is Father.  I do believe that was Brian's intent all along, not just a clever idea by Darian!  But remove Look from the picture since it was not of the 12, we're left with Wonderful and Child is Father matching up...  

The ending cello notes of Child is Father is the same as the beginning of Old Master Painter, something I believe is more than coincidence.  I only just realized this a month ago when The SMiLE Sessions came out.  Just too perfect...  

Switching gears, let's look for matching musical motifs...  Heroes and Villains and Do You Like Worms have similar piano phrases with different arrangements, borrowed from eachother.  The same with Wind Chimes and the I Love To Say Da-Da (which logically would be included with The Elements), the piano rhythm and chord sequences, the movement of the bass notes.  Listening to some of the Da-Da outtakes, I wouldn't be surprised if the two songs were meant to be siblings!  

So what does this all mean?  We know that the following should be grouped together:

a) H&V -> DYLW
b) Wonderful -> Child
c) Child -> OMP
d) Wind Chimes -> Da-Da (Elements )

Looking at points a) b) and c) we can see that a Side A has been created!  That leaves I'm In Great Shape and Vege-Tables as stand alone tracks, left to fill in the gaps for Side B.  That side is nearly arbitrary, as you have some interchangeable tracks, as we still don't know exactly what constituted I'm In Great Shape and The Elements; I will simply for the sake of argument, take a common sequencing for Side B (more than a coincidence?).  Let's look at our blueprint thus far:

SIDE A
(Our Prayer)
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Do You Like Worms?
3. Wonderful
4. Child is Father of The Man
5. Old Master Painter
6. Cabin Essence

SIDE B
7. Good Vibrations
8. I'm In Great Shape
9. Vege-Tables
10. Wind Chimes
11. The Elements
12. Surf's Up


If you time out both sides, they appear to 18 minutes or so... pretty balanced!  Feel free to tear away at my theories...  Wink  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 02:45:34 PM by soniclovenoize » Logged

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« Reply #115 on: December 02, 2011, 03:40:17 PM »

@soniclovenoize,

That is a very rational explanation of your sequence. It makes a lot of sense to me.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #116 on: December 02, 2011, 04:10:36 PM »

@soniclovenoize,

That is a very rational explanation of your sequence. It makes a lot of sense to me.
Ditto, this makes a whole lot of sense and could totally see this lineup on the LP in 1967.
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« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2011, 04:45:30 PM »

Sonic..., that are you using for The Elements? Just Dada or Dada and Fire?
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2011, 06:11:13 PM »

Sonic..., that are you using for The Elements? Just Dada or Dada and Fire?

For my personal Elements, it would be Fire Intro/Mrs. O'Leary's Cow/Water Chant/Da-Da.  But as I hinted it, you go back to the same circular arguments "Yeah but what was Wind and Earth?"  and the answer is Wind Chimes and whatever you want earth to be but "Yeah but why do they get their own track and Fire & Water are lumped together as The Elements" and you say I DON"T KNOW YOU BASTARD GO ASK BRIAN WILSON!!  LOL

My Authentic mix I made years ago (pre-BWPS) put I Wanna Be Around in there, in between Mrs. O'Leary's Cow and Water Chant (rebuilding after the fire burned everything down) but I alreday knew that a tape box labeled that as associated with I'm In Great Shape.  So I knew someday when IIGS leaked, I'd have to take it out of Elements and make it a part of it somehow...  When that mp3 leaked, I imagined the tape explosion at the end being a hard edit into IWBA, and I was waiting for a lossless source of that.  Then much to my surprise, BWPS came out, and that was exactly the construction of I'm In Great Shape!  :D  Can I call it or what?!   
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« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2011, 07:02:51 PM »

Now, since we know that Good Vibrations was not originally part of the album, but capitol pushed it on, the logical placement would be the opening of side B, fitting the same exact scenario as Sloop John B on Pet Sounds.
Let the record show (no pun intended) that Sloop John B is the last song on side 1 of Pet Sounds. The first song on side 2 is God Only Knows. Along that line of thinking though, maybe side 1 of Smile would have ended with Good Vibrations. Who the heck knows?
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« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2011, 07:06:00 PM »

Now, since we know that Good Vibrations was not originally part of the album, but capitol pushed it on, the logical placement would be the opening of side B, fitting the same exact scenario as Sloop John B on Pet Sounds.
Let the record show (no pun intended) that Sloop John B is the last song on side 1 of Pet Sounds. The first song on side 2 is God Only Knows. Along that line of thinking though, maybe side 1 of Smile would have ended with Good Vibrations. Who the heck knows?
Ah!  My mistake!  I'd say my point still stands though as in the eyes of Capitol, they'd want a lead-in single to start off Side B.
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« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2011, 07:12:06 PM »

Now, since we know that Good Vibrations was not originally part of the album, but capitol pushed it on, the logical placement would be the opening of side B, fitting the same exact scenario as Sloop John B on Pet Sounds.
Let the record show (no pun intended) that Sloop John B is the last song on side 1 of Pet Sounds. The first song on side 2 is God Only Knows. Along that line of thinking though, maybe side 1 of Smile would have ended with Good Vibrations. Who the heck knows?
Ah!  My mistake!  I'd say my point still stands though as in the eyes of Capitol, they'd want a lead-in single to start off Side B.
Yes, and that is exactly how both H&V and GV are placed on Smiley Smile, as well.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2011, 07:13:12 PM »

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrryyyyy  Eeeeeeeenterestiiiiiiiiiink.
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« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2011, 09:44:07 PM »

I only get this passionate about things that affect the fate of the entire planet...and my wife!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 09:22:16 PM by Reverend Rock » Logged
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« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2011, 09:46:30 PM »

...anyhow, my ideal SMiLE for 1967 would include everything that made the cut on BWPS, plus a fully realized "Elements" track, and "He Gives Speeches".  That would have meant a double album.
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