The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm speaking of the tracklisting, and this is if it had been released in the 60s. Of course everyone's gonna be like "It's impossible to know, he never decided!" but this thread is asking how YOU think it would have went. Make an educated guess based on what flows best, makes the most sense, etc. (First post for me!)

Welcome! Stick around, these are exciting times  ;D

Let's see.

We have assurances from those at the time that despite the gargantuan task of sequencing this monster, it was to be twelve tracks with no crossfades, no suites, and essentially not BWPS.

Prayer was to just be an intro, not a standalone track. But, nevertheless, finished.

Look & Holidays were left in the can early in the game, which is either a sign that they were finished instrumentals or not to be used. Given brian's lack of enthusiasm for it since, we can knock off He Gives Speeches. Carl's Tune X was 99% unlikely to turn up. Dada is also unlikely, as it was the last SMiLE session, done way after work on a full album was considered - a large portion of '67 was given to H&V and Vege-tables sessions for a single. But other people like it....

Good Vibrations would be on there.

The tracklisting sent to Capitol is another consideration - these songs are definite, as far as we know. On some of the threads round here, there is a lot of deliberation on this, though. For instance, Barnyard isn't on it. But Great Shape is.

Ok, so my liquored guess is....

Side 1
1. Heroes & Villains (Incorporating Prayer at the start, then just Brian's March '67 Single Edit. It's the only edit we have)
2. I'm In Great Shape (Just the 30 seconds - I don't think it was due for more than that. If you were feeling fresh, it could segue into Barnyard like he does on the Humble Harv demo)
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Wind Chimes
5. The Old Master Painter (Why this is on the 12 tracklist, I don't know)
6. Cabinessence.

Side 2.
1. Good Vibrations
2. Vega-tables
3. Fire (Seeing as extensive tape research hasn't turned up a single other piece of music that lies under the banner 'The Elements', this is telling. No-one's been able to solve 'The Elements', from the garbled BW interviews and Frank Holmes' drawing).
4. Wonderful
5. Child Is The Father of The Man (No ideas as to the edit on this - the fact an unbooted acetate is used on the box in lieu of BW's Nov '66 mix is intriguing. It might well be definitive).
6. Surf's Up.


Howzat?

Pretty good, got all the really great SMiLE songs in an order that makes sense and would be amazing to listen to in that order. :rock

Typical of SMiLE, however, i edited the tracklisting almost immediately after posting that.  :lol

My Definitive, after an extensive 5 years of research, is

(SIDE 1)
1. Heroes and Villains (with Prayer at the beginning)
2. I'm In Great Shape (Including Barnyard)
3. Do You Like Worms?
4. Old Master Painter
5. Cabin Essence
6. Good Vibrations

(SIDE 2)
7. Wonderful
8. Child Is Father Of The Man (Starting with "the Vega-Tables" part, then Vibes, Then Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Ending Piano
9. Surf's Up
10. Vegatables
11. Wind Chimes
12. Fire
13. Dada

Can you give your reasoning? especially for the second half

i was wondering if he was going  to do a "Smile" the whatever was left over would have been on the next album,whatver it would have been called,for now we'll just call it Smiley Smile..

I really like your revised track listing. The songs flow nicely.

Ding Dang
Shortenin' Bread
Be My Baby
My Obsession
Let It Be
Rhapsody In Blue
Ding Dang/Shortenin' Bread/Be My Baby/My Obsession/Let It Be/Rhapsody In Blue megamix 45 minute uber-medley

I Fixed One Mistake I Had :P

(SIDE 1)
1. Heroes and Villains (with Prayer at the beginning) - Obvious :P
2. I'm In Great Shape (Including Barnyard) - I always thought of H and V as part of the "Barnyard Suite"
3. Old Master Painter - Starts with a pickup note that fits right on to Barnyard
4. Do You Like Worms? - It Fits well following Barnyard.
5. Cabin Essence- Ends The "Barnyard Suite" one of the only SMiLE tracks to have a Natural Fade.
6. Good Vibrations- Wouldn't Fit On Side 2, it probably should be there :P (track 1?)

(SIDE 2)
7. Wonderful - Would be a great side opener (See "Hey You" on "The Wall"  to get my point)
8. Child Is Father Of The Man (Starting with "the Vega-Tables" part, then Vibes, Then Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Ending Piano- The Masculine "Wonderful"
9. Surf's Up - Might End The Album, But It Definitely Belongs After CIFOTM (Brian Even Says The Ending of Child sounds like a part of SU on the SMiLE DVD)
10. Vega-Tables - Somewhere on Side 2, Beginning the string of "elemental" songs
11. Wind Chimes
12. Fire
13. Dada- After Fire, and ending the album

after 45 years of waiting for this release, never thinking it would actually happen, hoping prior announced releases would actually be released, listening to all the boots and fan mixes and lineups, then bwps.....my head is spinning. been listening to smile material since 1979. i think i will just wait 2 weeks for the smile sessions to be in my hands and be very happy and satisfied with whatever is on it in what order. my mind is dizzy thinking about all the what ifs. i will welcome it as is.

I think it is important to point out that if SMiLE came out in 1967, it wouldn't have a "flow."  After 45 years of obsession, we've all looked into themes and other ways the songs relate to each other and we've made our own suites and movements.  But the album at the time would have most likely been 12 separate tracks plus "Prayer" at the beginning.  The tracks could probably be on shuffle mode for all it matters.  The point is that this album would have songs like "Heroes and Villiains," "Cabin Essence," "Surf's Up," "Wonderful," "Good Vibrations," and "Wind Chimes."  I think like "Pet Sounds," it wouldn't have sold well and like "Pet Sounds," it would be massively influential and gain its footing in the years to come.  

wat makes you think that?

 side a-
our prayer
heroes and villains
? ? ?
? ? ?
? ? ?
? ? ?

 side b-
good vibrations
? ? ?
? ? ?
? ? ?
? ? ?
surf's up

I like this a lot - the only place I differ is with "I'm In Great Shape," which I think would have been a medley incorporating "Barnyard" in some way (as the latter was not on the December track list, but I think it would have ended up on there somehow).

I LOVE the final trilogy of "Wonderful," "Child" and "Surf's Up."  That would have been a killer way to close the album!

True but there was a "Water" chant tracked at some point during the sessions.  Hard for me to imagine that was for anything other than "The Elements".

Prayer/Good Vibrations      
Do You Dig Worms?   
Wonderful       
Vega-Tables    
Cabin Essence             
Heroes And Villains      
Child is Father of the Man   
The Old Master Painter   
Wind Chimes      
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow   
Surf's Up      

Side 1
Prayer
Heroes & Villians
I'm In Great Shape/Barnyard
Old Master Painter
Wonderful
Cabinessence
Do You Like Worms?

Side 2
Good Vibrations
Vege-Tables
Wind Chimes
Mrs O'Leary's Cow
I Love To Say Da-Da
Surf's Up
Child Is Father Of The Man
Heroes & Villians (Reprise)

:rock

Hmm...I've been working on ideas for a new mix, and I'm one of those purists who try to make something similar to a 67 version, so I might as well toss that out there...I'll expand on this all after the honeymoon, but at least for now I'll post the tracklist:

Prayer (unlisted)
H&V pt. 1 (inc. Great Shape)
H&V pt. 2 (inc. Barnyard)
Do You Like Worms?
Wonderful
Cabinessence

H&V 'intro' ie Fire intro (unlisted)
Vegetables
Wind Chimes
Fire
Love to Say Da-Da
Child is the Father of the Man
Surf's Up

No clue where to put Vibrations...it would feel weird stuck in the middle of either side, but I think that H&V and Vegetables make killer side openers, and Cabinessence and Surf's Up make killer side closers...possibly lead off side 2 with it before the 'Fire intro' so that it sits apart from the rest of the tracks...it actually might sound good with the Intro whistle following the Vibrations fade...

Ah, too have witnessed that in a BWPS-format live in 2004.  ;D

I think Smile would have went somewhat more grammatically correctly.  :)

The entire damn album is just a bunch of extensions of "Heroes And Villains" anyway.

1. Heroes And Villains I
2. Heroes And Villains II
3. Heroes And Villains III
4. Heroes And Villains IV
5. Heroes And Villains V
6. Heroes And Villains VI
7. Heroes And Villains VII
8. Heroes And Villains VIII
9. Heroes And Villains IX
10. Heroes And Villains X
11. Heroes And Villains XI
12. Heroes And Villains XII

There.

I think it would have been two sides of continuous music.

Don't care what the evidence is to the contrary, don't care what anyone says, don't care for the current fashionable opinion that it would have had banding.

No one knows.

But my SMiLE flows

I disagree - what you refer to as "Heroes And Villains IX" is clearly a reworking of the previous track, and should thus be correctly identified as "Heroes And Villains VIII(b)".

Yeah, okay, thanks for totally throwing a wrench into my theories. *cries tears of butter*

That's obviously right. But it's also apparently not logged as such on tape boxes - In the Linett interviews recently he said that Fire was the only track labelled the elements.... Hard to suss.

I like my mix too, as it holds up in the cold light of sobriety, but there's so much else you'd want on there. You can see Brian's dilemma - You're throwing away hours upon hours of fantastic material, like Look, Holidays, all the H&V part two chants, Dada/Cool Cool Water, the Water Chant, all the bag of tricks things, Barnyard (although I'd probably stick that with Great Shape), and funny stuff like I Wanna Be Around/Workshop. And that's just what made it onto BWPS.
We tend to see the Harpsichord version of Wonderful as 'canon', but he re-recorded it twice! We still don't know what finished sequences of Vegetables would have entailed, or Child, and so on.

Sorry, just getting excited for the box. 12 days!  ;D

Definitely down with your openers and closers on each side - specifically Our Prayer into GV at the start. I have a hunch this was the plan, at least at one point. GV into OP just sounds too good to not be designed that way, imo. Carl's breathy "I ..." at the start of GV just sounds like a natural extension of the prayer.

Really good man - that's an ace line-up.  Bold in the material it leaves out, and the sequence of the material it includes really follows the historical logic of the pop album, and all its pressures.

Like the Smile Shop founders, I think that historical evidence suggests that Smile would have been a pop album, not a cycle with 'link tracks' and all that...but maybe one or two interludes or intros.

BWPS was a way of getting everything to work live, and it's brilliant, because it did work live, and gave us (and probably more imporantly, gave the broader listening public) TSS, essentially. But the 'roll your own' ethos can help give us a glimpse of 'historical smile'.

Can't wait. Great sequence!

I think you are right on point.  You have the typical (North American market) 12 track album (with Prayer being an uncredited track, though it could easily have been #13).  I like your running order overall too.  Nice job.  I could even see Workshop being an intro to Vega-Tables on here, even if it was faded in for no more than 20 seconds.  By the way, it was interesting to hear on the Linett interview where they talked about how double albums in rock weren't around yet, but then it was pointed out that the debut album by the Mothers of Invention was a double in 1966.  I wonder if Brian knew about that album at the time (The Mothers were in the LA area) and if he ever considered having SMiLE as a double album which would allow him the freedom to do what he wanted? 

what is the VegaTables part of Child?

1. Heroes and Villains (with Prayer)
2. I'm in Great Shape (with Barnyard)
3. Do You Like Worms?
4. The Old Master Painter
5. Cabinessence
6. Good Vibrations

7. Wonderful
8. Child is Father of the Man (with lyrics)
9. Vega-Tables
10. Wind Chimes
11. The Elements (with Mrs. O'Leary's Cow and 3 others we don't know yet)
12. Surf's Up

The Piano and Vox Solo "Child----------- Father Of The Man"

SOT Unsurpassed #16 version.

oh i love that.  :)

I don't think Do You Like Worms wold have been on the album once Brian "borrowed" the bicycle rider section. From the first time I heard BWPS, it seemed kind of silly to me, given all the great stuff that was recorded, that there were two songs, one right after the other, with the same chorus.

Kinda the same chorus, but kinda not, too. I do think there were to be some themes shared throughout the record, albeit not necessarily the same approach as on BWPS.

(Prayer)
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape (including barnyard)
The Old Master Painter
Cabinessence
Wonderful

Good Vibrations
Vegetables
Wind Chimes
The Elements
Child Is Father Of the Man
Surf's Up

"Our Prayer" could've easily become a "track" even though it wasn't in Brian's mind during that particular time on that particular day. What a flaky n00b.

Mayhaps?

Mayhaps indeed. But we just dunno outside of that. It's not on the 12 track list..... But I can't imagine him ditching it. *brain shuts down*

Everyone puts "Surf's Up" at the end but I bet if it wasn't the last track on an actually-released album no one would see it as a closer.

I've been fiddling with a version that closes out with a

- Child is Father of the Man
- Surf's Up
- Friday Night/Workshop
- Vegetables

Seems weird to end something called SMiLE with something as cosmic at Surf's Up. Vegetables definitely leaves you with a SMiLE and closes the whole album with "I know that you'll feel better when you send us in your letter and tell us the name of your, your favorite vegetable", which seems appropriate.

Wasn't it said somewhere or other that "Surf's Up" was either planned or talked about as a possible final track? Pre-71, I mean. Nothing else really works as a closer imo. "Good Vibrations" worked well in a concert setting and even on BWPS to an extent, but it definitely doesn't feel like a "proper" ending.

It's a shame that after all the months Van Dyke was with Brian, they never recall discussing tracklisting - or they won't say as much.

Then again, Brian didn't consult with Tony Asher about tracklisting, so maybe it's not all that odd.

My guess is that it wasn't something that Brian really thought about at the time - sequencing was typically one of the last things to be done before an album was released.  He had to get all the recording finished first, and obviously that never happened. 

I'm sure Brian knew that he'd have to open both sides with hit singles ("Good Vibrations" and "Heroes"), and I'm guessing he knew which one was going to follow "Our Prayer".  And as others have said, I believe he planned on closing it with "Surf's Up," although for the life of me I can't remember what contemporary source (if any) that idea came from.  As for the rest, I doubt it was given much thought - he was having enough of an issue just trying to sequence sections within the songs themselves, let alone the album as a whole.

I don't think he did borrow it out of DYLW but instead just referenced it along with references to other album songs for some sort album reference comp maybe for the B side of the H&V single.

Brian decides to let Mike alter the lyrics to give Smile more commercial appeal

1. Our Cars
2. Hondas and Surfers
3. Do You Dig Surfing
4. Girl Essence
5. Wonder Girls
6. I am the father of Brian
7. Surf's Up

8. Vegatables (its good for you)
9. Wind Surfing
10. Mrs O'Leary's Car
11. Water Chant
12. I Love to Say Mike Love
13. Good Vibrations (Brian did the Good Good Good Good Vibrations, but I wrote the I'm pickin up Good Vibrations. And the reason I came up with that part, first was cuz its the bass line. But also the track was so wierd that our fans, the listening audience would freak out when they hear this, so I said oh my goodness. So I wrote it from boy girl perspective)
14. Rev Your Rev Your Engine to Come

One time I had a dream that I was hanging out with Brian and we were watching TV and Mike & Bruce were on TV debuting a version of "Heroes and Villains" that Mike had re-written to be a song about a drag race and Brian got really sad and then he wasn't fun to hang out with anymore.

I think that really happened! But its not documented anywhere.

When the track listings for TSS were made public, I realised that the also kind of canonical Cantina version of H&V is contemporary with the Rock Me Henry version of Wonderful. A February 1967 SMiLE album would probably not include the harpsichord version!


I don't know whether you're right, but I never felt Surf's Up to be a closer. The minor chord heavy tag sounds just too sad for an album called "SMiLE". It's a song that could be near the end for its magnifiscence, but not the end.


I disagree! I think Good Vibrations "definitely" works great as a closer! My first two fan mixes (pre-BWPS) ended with it. It's a good feeling that the album leaves you with.


My third fan mix did end with V-T! Second to last Surf's Up with the line "a childrens' song..." followed with the childlike fun song that V-T is. My mix ended with the "row, row" tag being chanted for about one whole minute.

And the track listing should be written in Linear A anyway.

Not quite contemporary, but Vosse says this in the Fusion piece:

"As to Smile itself-well, you know about "Surf's Up".  It was going to kind of close the album, and then after it was over they were going to a sort of choral a-men sort of thing."

I'm not sayin' you can take anything Vosse says in the article to the bank (Andrew ;)), but this is what he said.

There've been a couple of comments that a Child-style SU tag was attempted in 66/67. Could this be what Vosse's referring to, and is it likely to be on the box?

This next week is gonna be the longest.

I've heard a more "CIFOTM- Styled" Coda, I think someone confirmed it was used?

I'm pretty sure there was no Child-style SU tag in 66/67. I think that Vosse could only be referring to Our Prayer, believing it to come last.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe. But maybe not.

Well, until there is any evidence at all suggesting that such a thing existed, I think we can not only feel comfortable saying "Maybe not" but feel even more comfortable saying, "It never existed."

Don't y'think it's interesting that Brian just fuckin' barged in on them recording a song he wanted no part of saying, "Yeah, if you guys are gonna do this shit, you may as well do it right"?

It's hard to say imo

Side One
(unlisted) Our Prayer
1. Do You Like Worms
2. Heroes and Villains (Alt version up until "False barnyard", replace fade with another section)
3. Wonderful
4. Child is Father of the Man (according to BW 3.03 mono mix)
5. The Old Master Painter (with barnshine fade, ie. TSS)
6. I'm in Great Shape (WBA/FN-IIGS-Barnyard-H&V concluding section)
7. Cabin Essence

Side Two
1. Good Vibrations
2. Mrs O'Leary's Cow-Water Chant/Holidays (The Elements)
5. Wind Chimes
4. Vega-Tables
5. Surf's Up

Despite the imbalance in numbers of track per side, both are roughly equivalent and come in at under 20 minutes in my edits. Nothing massively new here apart from some of the individual track constructions, and it does work as both a twelve-song album and a cohesive work. (Admittedly due to some historically dodgy editing decisions - the "CIFOTM" piano bit actual runs into the first notes of Vega-Tables, and after years of being in the "four short instrumental pieces" camp, I've abruptly switched into the alternate view for reasons we don't need to go in here.)

It just occurs to me, after fourteen years rejecting the Prokopy/Priore model, I've ended up pretty much returning to it.

Side 1                                        Side 2
Prayer                                       Good Vibrations
Heroes and Villains                   Vega-Tables
Do you like worms?                   Wind Chimes
Wonderful                                 Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
Child is father of the man         Dada
OMP                                         Surf's Up
Cabinessence

I am a big believer that Good Vibrations would have started side 2 and that Surf's up would have ended the record. I also think that the album would have been tighter without Shape and I wanna be around/Workshop. I do love Barnyard so that could have fit between heroes and worms

Pretty, pretty good. :)

Take that Sgt. Pepper! ;D

side one:

1. (our prayer) Heroes and Villains
2. Do you like worms
3. I'm in great shape (barnyard)
4. The Old Master Painter (you are my sunshine)
5. Cabin Essence

side two:

6. Good Vibrations
7. Wonderful
8. Child is Father of the Man
9. Vega-Tables

10. (holidays-)Wind Chimes

11. The Elements:
- EARTH: Look
- WIND: Holidays reprise/Wind chimes reprise
- FIRE: Mrs. O Leary's Cow-I wanna be around-Friday night
- WATER: Love to Say Dada

12. Surf's Up

(...) = unlisted

Outside of knowledge of how sequencing of mid-60's albums usually went, I'm no where near creative enough to come up with how I think a whole album like SMiLE would go.

HOWEVER, I was listening to the sessions for the "healthy, wealthy and often wise" section of Heroes and Villains and I spent some time wondering what the point of this and the "healthy, wealthy and wise" section was. I decided that I think that if there was to be a "Heroes and Villains" pt 1 and 2 that instead of being different songs, or 2 being an extension of 1 or whatever, the songs would act more as parallels of each other, with pt 1 being more positive and pt 2 negative (the character getting arrested at the end of the Cantina section, the children being often, but not always wise, the "Bag of Tricks" intro), I might try to create an edit of each to try and demonstrate my point to anyone interested at some point.

Your side two is about 2 and a half times the length than your side one.

And it will always be MHO that Surf's Up is a terrible closer for an album called "SMiLE". There must be something more uplifting at the end, like Good Vibrations on BWPS.

EDIT: Actually have come to feel the listing as was/is on the original album slick (tentative, though it may have been) is absolutely perfect.  I'm quite certain I may be the only person to hold this opinion, but that's okay.  :P

(Prayer)
Do You Like Worms
Wind Chimes
Heroes And Villains
Surf's Up
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence

Wonderful
I'm In Great Shape
Child Is Father of The Man
The Elements
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter

I'm wondering if Prayer would have made it. I wonder if the later intros to H&V weren't the new intro to the album.

That's like saying A Day In The Life is too much of a downer to close Sgt. Pepper.

2

And...if it's true that "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine (with "false Barnyard" fade) was once considered "the big finale"--well, let's talk about downers...

Love this thread!  Lots of laughs, and some very intriguing theories!

I've been collecting information and trying to solve this dilemma for years.  Just recently, I finally tried out my own solution in a fan mix.  I'm pleased to report that I've time-checked it, and "side one" clocks in at about 19:28, while side two does at about 18:40--only about a minute longer than Pet Sounds, so I think Capitol could've swung for it.

Yes, I put bands of silence between the tracks.  I have read that recent interviews with both Brian and Van Dyke indicate that was the original plan back in '66.  Before Sgt. Pepper, there was really no precedent for doing lots of segues.  My theory is that several of the songs would have been segued as "sections", but that the tracks thus created would have been separated by the conventional few seconds of silence common to pop music albums of the time.

"Side One"
1. Intro (Our Prayer)
2. Heroes And Villains ("Heroes and Villains Intro" that is now used as intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" followed by alternate single version clipped at the tape delay overload, followed by "I'm In Great Shape" and "Barnyard" as sections, with "Barnyard" used to create a fade ending)
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Cabin Essence
5. Wonderful (utilizing "He Gives Speeches" pitch-corrected to be in same key as an opening "section")
6. Good Vibrations

"Side Two"
7. Vega-Tables/Child Is Father Of The Man (connected by "bop, bop" section used in both recordings, something I've always wanted to try stitching together)
8. Wind Chimes
9. The Elements (my own hypothetical creation, using sliding brass sounds from "George Fell Into His French Horn" session as "Air", the Water Chant as "Water", Bag Of Tricks as "Earth" and of course, good ol' Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as "Fire")
10. Surf's Up
11. The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine (using "False Barnyard" for the "big finale" like Brian talked about doing)

For what it's worth, it makes an enjoyable listen.

Until I did the mix described above, I pretty much subscribed to that view as well.  But when I tried to put together a listenable "Smile '67" that did that, somehow it never felt right, which really surprised me.

Similar to as presented except...

Substitute "Heroes & Villains Part Two" for "Gee."

Follow "Part Two" with "I'm In Great Shape" & then "Heroes & Villains Part One."

Edit "Vega-tables" to end after the slow ending a la BWPS.

This is the SMiLE I made for now:

1. Our Prayer
2. Heroes and Villians (same as SMiLE sessions version, but the 'often wise' verse is put added between the cantina section and final verse)
3. Barnyard
4. Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine
5. Cabinessence
6. Wonderful
7. Child Song
8. Child is the Father of the Man
9. Surfs Up
10. Tone X

11. Good Vibrations
12. I'm In Great Shape
13. I Wanna Be Around/Workshop
14. Vegatables
15. Holidays
16. Wind Chimes
17. Mrs Oleary's Cow
18. I Love to Say Da Da
19. Do You Like Worms (Heroes and Villains part 2?)
20. You're Welcome

Might be too long for an LP, but I like it this way.

Well, first of all, ADITL isn't as sad a song as Surf's Up to me, it is not about collapsing worlds and ends with a big major chord. Then, the album isn't called "Sgt. Happy" for instance.

If you have an album cover like the Surf's Up album (the beaten knight), it fits to have a sad ending like Surf's Up. If the album title had been "Dumb Angel", it could have worked. But not on a "SMiLE" album with that happy cover. Only if "SMiLE" is meant ironically.


To me, YWMS and the Barnshine fade is not anywhere near as sad as Surf's Up. The saxophone line that leads to the decending strings has even a comical feel to me, and the fade with the two alternating major chords sounds happy despite the sad lyrics. So IMHO that would be a good ending to "SMiLE".

Another thought: On Pet Sounds, the song that resembles Surf's Up most in feel and scope is IJWMFTT. Still it is not the last song. I bet if Pet Sounds had been left unfinished and IJWMFTT was used as a closer for a later album, everybody would claim that one would have closed Pet Sounds.

I think that in general mood and instrumentation "Surf's Up" resembles "Caroline, No" more than "I Just Wasn't Made..."  And I think that's one of the reasons it has always been such a contender in people's minds for SMiLE closer...not to mention that it's a damn-near-impossible act to follow!

But I think you're right that if Pet Sounds were the "Lost Album" we're discussing, "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" would be a very strong contender for final track in our imaginary track listing.

Wasn't there some vintage article or something saying the album closed with "Surf's Up"? Or at least that it was true of the album at some point in time, not necessarily always?

Vosse said about himself and the "posse" that they felt Surf's Up was the closer. Brian never said so.


How about following it with "Prayer" and "Good Vibrations"? ;D

In case I'm coming off as stubborn, I know all this is just my opinion, SMiLE was not finished in its era so we can't possibly know for certain it would not have closed with Surf's Up back then.

(At least in 2004 it didn't.)

Well, Brian himself said that the original '67 SMiLE was supposed to be less "uplifting". Album titles had, and still have about as much relevance to the actual music inside as a rock (Pet Sounds sure isn't uplifting either, despite the happy cover with all of the band members smiling at the petting zoo.) Surf's Up is just such a majestic song that it doesn't fit properly anywhere else but on the end of the album - not without major additions to other songs ala BWPS. It's literally the ADITL of SMiLE. Hell, if Brian was actually paying attention to the title, a dark song like Surf's Up never would've made the cut in the first place. Or Fire, for that matter.

Good Vibrations never would've been on the tail end. Album practices back then effectively forced singles to be either the end of side one, or the beginning of side two. This wasn't Britain where artists could release their albums without paying attention to singles at all. Not until Sgt. Pepper would that dichotomy be broken.   

Vega-Tables just doesn't work. It wasn't even close to a finished state by any conceivable 12 song SMiLE timeline.  And it would probably force Surf's Up back up the track list a pretty long way. (Probably all the way up to the end of Side one). (Surf's Up - Vega-Tables is so jarring that Brian would have to be on acid to consider it.) The fact that Vegetables was the second song on Smiley Smile should be telling. It just doesn't make a good album closer. When you hear the end of a "Teenage Symphony to God", you expect something epic.

Our Prayer is laughable. Brian upright states that it's the intro to the album in the recording session. Now, a Prayer reprise ala BWPS I can maybe accept, though that would bring up a whole multitude of questions regarding Brian's track recall during 2004.

I suppose the only thing I can think of that could go on the end of a '67 SMiLE is You're Welcome - either as a hidden track or a fade in from Surf's Up. And that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, considering it wasn't on the track list and I believe it wasn't recorded until after the plans for a finished SMiLE fell through. Still, it's barely a track in its own right - not much more so than Our Prayer, at least.

How's that?

Also, what constitutes a "track"?

I think that original idea probably consisted of 14 tightly edited tracks of approx 3 minutes in length. There were (possibly) short pieces of music linking some tracks.

I would stick to the tracks on the printed album cover...

Heroes & Villains
Do You Like Worms? (with additional lyrics and vocal arrangements)
Wind Chimes
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence (possibly with VDPs discarded lyrics mixed in somehow)
Wonderful
I'm in Great Shape-   (developed as a full 3-minute track)
Child Is Father of the Man-   (with lyrics and possibly other sections)
The Elements-   (with Parts 2,3 and 4 which are possibly unrecorded)
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter-  (developed as a full 3 minute track)
Surf's Up

I would say 2 things (no doubt controversial)

1. I don't think any of the Smile tracks were properly completed (not during the original sessions anyhow) and therefore they are all likely to sound different from the music we are used to hearing. I think there would have definately been more lyrics and vocals for a start. I also think it would have been edited to smoothly flow together as a "whole" album.

2. I think Brian was starting work on other musical projects during the Smile Sessions and not everything we hear was necessarily intended for the album. I say this based on things I have read about him.

Have revised my sequence slightly - Swapped the Barnyard Suite so it's all in one place, sounds better that way when I was listening to it, and I'm too lazy to fade things out. Stuck Workshop in there, too, because it's only a minute and it's funny. Using TSS mixes (And Adam78s for DYLW, as I wanted to get it as 'complete' as possible, and the GV single mix, as that's accurate), it runs to 37:20, which is palatable? Sounds rather good, too.

But the recent revelation that Holidays had lyrics is a gamechanger. That places it above it's usual 'nice instrumental, but he never did anything with it' status. It's clear there was a bigger plan for it, and that it wasn't DYLW in radical form, but a unique work. *scratches head*

I think the ‘cornucopia’ version was more than a demo - those backing vocals are rather ornate and well rehearsed for a demo.  I suspect it was recorded as an album track at the time. Do we have a firm recording date for the 'cornucopia’ version

Says you! I say Good Vibrations is just such a majestic song that it doesn't fit properly anywhere else but on the end of the album.


Well, Pet Sounds had the A-side of a single at the end of side two: Caroline, No. It is even highlighted on the front cover. Actually Party too had a single at the end of side two, although that was released after the album. Pet Sounds on the other hand had originally not a single track at the start of side two - GOK was released as a B-side and only some time after the album. Your claim where singles were "forced" to be placed does not hold up to reality.


I can't see YW as a closer at all. It's like a circus coming to town, inviting to listen to the album, and could if intended for SMiLE at all only be the opener, replacing Prayer - IMHO. It would work chordwise if followed by H&V, anyway.


I absolutely agree with you about "You're Welcome" there.

You're Welcome makes no sense as a closing track, due to the lyrics "You're welcome to come".  It might make sense as some sort of opening track, but we know that Our Prayer was designated to open the album.  So it really fits no where. Some people have said it's like saying "you're welcome" for the album, thus it makes sense as a closer, but those lyrics, "to come" at the end really invalidate that argument for me.

"Surf's Up" is a song that stands alone in the history of music.  Really, nothing else on SMiLE touches it in terms of sheer poetry and artistry.  Whether it would have closed SMiLE will be debated forever, I guess, but it is a very hard song to follow.  It's placement in the center of BWPS is ingenious, because it is done in such a way that effectively makes it the true center of the work.  In a three-movement work of performance art, it works wonderfully there.  But the conventional pop LP could have never contained what SMiLE became when it was completed. 

The conventional LP record of the mid-20th century is literally an entirely different way of experiencing music from how we experience music today.  SMiLE as it was completed in 2004 (and as it exists on TSS) would have never worked as an LP, and that's what makes this hypothetical process so tricky.

I always thought Surf's Up would do pretty well as the end of side 1 for SMiLE with Good Vibrations as the final track. End SMiLE on an upbeat note.

Eh. Often enough, you'll hear a demo that basically has everything a final has, but exists in a different quality and may have some subtle changes throughout, but still with lots of detail.

The Old Master Painter is the last track on the Capitol tracklisting of Dec. 66. On the TSS Disc 3 Track 6 at 5:55 refers to Part 2 of You Were My Sunshine as "the big finale". Like it or not, that's some pretty strong evidence that in '66 it was Brian's intention to use  the OMP/YWMS track as the album closer. I agree with the poster that said Part 2 of YWMS ends the album on an upbeat note which is appropriate for an album named 'Smile'. As for the posts that ask "How do you follow Surf's Up on an album? It's so great." Well, Good Vibrations sounds terriffic following Surf's Up, and that is how the Capitol tracklist is sequenced, so why not? Just sayin'- I understand that we all have our own preferences and pet theories. That is what makes Smile unique.

*angry post about how that list wasn't written by Brian, how he's recording the END of a song when he says that, and then used it as the fade of potentially the lead single of the album not long afterwards, and how ending your avantgarde spiritual pop statement with You Are My Sunshine would be the uncoolest thing imaginable. all to say you're really wrong*

Are there other instances of Brian in the studio referring to the final section of a song as "the big finale"?  I don't listen to all that stuff. As for the '66 tracklist, it doesn't seem logical to me that the song titles were just drawn out of a hat. To me, that is "strong evidence". I don't make any claims as to knowing what is right or "really wrong" as far as what Smile's final form would have been in 67. If some fans like to have their own fan mixes end with Surf's Up or You're Welcome I'm cool with that.

Sure but how often did Brian record full group 'demos' at Columbia in 1966? I think it was a serious attempt to track the song (or part of the song) - possibly when it was still part of The Elements.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the tracklist was also a preliminary track sequencing.  The sleeves that were printed up based on the tracklist specifically said "see label for correct playing order."  No, the titles weren't randomly drawn, but it's a pretty big leap of logic to suggest that it was anything more than a list of the most completed songs intended to get the record company off Brian's back. 

Or......................

It means the song would have ended either H&V or YWMS

True story.

Also, "See label for correct playing order."

I have no doubt that the original SMiLE would have ended with one of these songs,

Surf's Up (most likely)
Good Vibrations (not so)
or
Cabin Essence (IMHO very likely)

Why?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE INCREDIBLE FADES! THE ALBUM NEEDS TO FADE OUT YOU KNOW!

I don't really see your point here because the Barnshine section does have a fade out. Cabinessence could have bee the end of side 1.

(Prayer)
H&V
Wonderful
Holiday
Cabin Essence
Fire
Child

GV
Wind
Look
Veg
Worms
Surfs Up

How it would have gone? No, since Brian seemingly discarded Look and Holidays. But this is how I like it now. This works for me. This is how it SHOULD have went.

I offhand can't think of one album in my collection where the tracklist printed on the back of the album sleeve bears no resemblance whatsoever to the actual running order of the tracks. There probably are some albums like that, but it doesn't seem logical TO ME that the "see label for correct playing order" line completely invalidates the order of the list that was given to Capitol as some others think it does.

Considering the list wasn't in Brian's hand, the slick says "See label for correct playing order", the album was far from complete, and the tracklist flows like a post-menopausal woman on steroids who used to be a man (both in a past life and in this life), I really can't put even the least bit of stock in it. It's a list of songs, not a tracklist.

I must listen to that later today. Does he say it is the big finale of what exactly? Could be the big finale of the single...  Or the the big finale of Americana section of "SMiLE" ("movement?)... Or indeed the big finale of the album.

I don't see any significance in who physically wrote the list - it almost certainly came from the LP producer. It's inconceivable that in 1966 someone decided to go behind Brian's back and send the Capitol art department a tracklist he didn't approve. Of course, you're right about it not being an actual sequence - hence "see label for correct running order."

For me the sequencing is a red herring - I suspect it wasn't that much of a concern in 1966 - at least not compared to editing/mixing the sections within the individual songs. It isn't like the LP was shelved because he couldn't figure out how to sequence it.

The thing is, he didn't write it, which makes it much more difficult to say that! Either Carl or Diane, who are the main suspects, had that kind of information. I can just picture something like this happening...

"Hey Brian, Capitol just rang, they want a final tracklist for the back cover. They've been on at you for months about it, apparently."

"Er, um, there isn't one."

"What?"

"It's not finished, alright? Now f*ck off, I'm turning the living room into a gym."

"Well, what have we recorded..... Heroes & Villains, obviously.... He'd put Good Vibrations on it... We've just started this thing called Vegetables...." and so on

Wait, what? The fact that no other album has 'see label for playing order' ensures that this is the real SMiLE sequence?


Are you feeling alright?

As I remember Brian turned in an early track list and a revised track list for Pet Sounds. Did either one reflect the final album sequence? There is a track list for Wild Honey with revisions does it reflect the final sequence?

"How many do we have now?"

"Eleven."

"All right, one more track... oh, The Old Master Painter, right. Although - that could be part of another track, put it in brackets. Wait, no, that's a cover, it must be mentioned on the sleeve."

"I've already put it in brackets now."

"Cross them out."

Could you imagine the Cornucopia demo closing a finished SMiLE? Sure, a finished April Vega-Tables might work, but who knows whether or not April Vega-Tables would've been the finished result on a January release?


Okay, for one, Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent after the Party album was released - The Little Girl I Once Knew was the intended single (and it didn't make the Top Ten, which led to Barbara Ann's release in the first place). For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit. Caroline No was an exception in the fact that A. Wasn't a top ten single and B. Wasn't released in the Beach Boys name originally - Good Vibrations (and Sloop John B for that matter) was both of those things.

Trying to put Good Vibrations anywhere but the end/beginning of a side (or at the very beginning of the album, but that's laughable) doesn't hold up to reality. Even the Beatles were subjected to this treatment on their American releases (until Sgt. Pepper). Today! was subjected to it. Summer Days was subjected to it. Pet Sounds was subjected to it. There weren't any other singles out like those aforementioned albums, either. In any conceivable SMiLE timeframe, Good Vibrations was the only one.

Sigh. I'll take Cam Mott’s years of researching the Capitol Art Department – including grilling the SMILE art director - over what "you can picture"..  

Since Brian produced the SMILE sessions we can be certain the handwritten list, regardless who wrote it, came from him. All artwork had to be approved by the LP producer before being printed - this was Capitol policy as confirmed to Cam Mott by SMILE art director George Osaka. The fact a list was submitted to and received by Capitol and work was underway (466,000 front slicks, book design/photos, rear mock up) is proof Brian approved the handwritten list and cover design with track list and "see label for order."  No way a written track list is accepted, designed & revised if it came from someone other than Brian.  Unlikely Capitol authorizes printing 466,000 cover slicks for an job with incomplete art.

Do people think someone went behind Brian's back and turned in a track list to Capitol without his knowledge? How could they get away with this? Imagine George Harrison going to EMI with "here is the track list for the new LP, no need to contact Mr. Martin, go ahead and print the LP sleeves." What was Brian going to do when he received the LP jacket and says "where the f*** is Holidays?"

No, it seems that both the Barbara Ann single and Sloop John B on Pet Sounds were Brian Wilson's ideas, even over the discouragement of others.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=f03a4bae0d7f8dafb7480a289915c56a&topic=4725.0

Just another myth that has been passed around for years.

Ah, you meant "Vega-Tables" as an album closer, gotcha - my mistake.

This really isn't too hard to figure out...

1) Handwritten tracklist
Just because it's not in Brian's handwriting doesn't mean it's not valid.  It clearly came from a close source to the center of the operation.  To discredit it because of the handwriting instead of the content is silly.  In my view, it is simply the list of the likely contenders for the album, not truely the correct running order (hence the note).  The things it excludes were either fragments or unfinished instrumentals and not real contenders for SMiLE anyways...  Lots of neat things on the cutting room floor, but that was the nature of the beast.  So, you can start with those twelve tracks, plus Our Prayer (for an uncredited 13th).  

2) Side openers
As common practice at the time for pop albums, the lead single would open the album--as Wouldn't It be Nice did on Pet Sounds.  So after Our Prayer, we have Heroes and Villains, which is what many people believe anyways.  Furthermore, we know it most likely would have been the February Cantina version.  The theoretical "Part 2" probably would not have been on the album, staying as an exclusive b-side to the 7".  Now, since we know that Good Vibrations was not originally part of the album, but capitol pushed it on, the logical placement would be the opening of side B, fitting the same exact scenario as Sloop John B on Pet Sounds.  This is again something many already figured.  GV's reason to be concluding these modern sequences was for the purpose of the live show: it's a set closer, not an album closer!  

3) Side closers
George Martin once said that you'd always want to end the sides of an album with the song that could not be logically followed or topped.  I believe Brian was adopting this policy because not only it makes bombastic albums, but he heeded to compete with his brothers across the ocean.  What two songs from the remaining 10 fit that bill?  Quite obviously Surf's Up and Cabin Essence.  I've always maintained that Surf's Up was intentionally written as the sort of epic ending to the album, Brian's A Day In The Life.  So if we place Surf's Up at the conclusion of side B, that leaves Cabin Essence as an excellent close for side A.  

4) remaining meat of the SMiLE sandwich
Now we have 8 songs left: Do You Like Worms?, Wonderful, Child is Father, Old Master Painter, I'm In Great Shape, Vege-Tables, Wind Chimes, and The Elements.  This is the tough one...  How do we fill in this meat of the SMiLE sandwich now that we've constructed the bread of H&V and Cabin Essence, and Good Vibrations and Surf's Up?  

It's really impossible to say.  Did Brian have a dual concept or was this just a collection of experimental pop-songs?  Judging by the twelve contenders, I'd say you could possibly devide them into the two concepts Elemental & Americana just as has been suggested by Dominic so long ago.  I do remember Brian saying back in 2004 that his intention was to make two suites back in 67, but now there's three (for the live show).   Also, if he was going to create an entire album of Good Vibrations-esque modular songwriting, logic would dictate that that would include interconnected/segued songs: you would end up having two continuous sides of music.  I don't think that was just a clever construction by Darian, but something that was intended all along (although the specific connections were made by him).  

So with that said, how can we match up these songs in what way to fill out two 4-song groups, surrounded by their designated 'bread'?  Putting aside the conceptual analysis as it's been done to death and is very subjective, let's try to look at the more musical, something more objective.  What things can we match up?   Wonderful's cold ending was meant to be a hard edit into the next song...  
When I first heard the segue from Wonderful into Look on the live bootlegs of the SMiLE tour, I nearly pooped my pants.  OF COURSE!  Why didn't I think of that before!?  A common musical arrangement of some of the songs is that arpeggiated piano phrase, found in Look, Wonderful and the minor-key verse of Child is Father.  I do believe that was Brian's intent all along, not just a clever idea by Darian!  But remove Look from the picture since it was not of the 12, we're left with Wonderful and Child is Father matching up...  

The ending cello notes of Child is Father is the same as the beginning of Old Master Painter, something I believe is more than coincidence.  I only just realized this a month ago when The SMiLE Sessions came out.  Just too perfect...  

Switching gears, let's look for matching musical motifs...  Heroes and Villains and Do You Like Worms have similar piano phrases with different arrangements, borrowed from eachother.  The same with Wind Chimes and the I Love To Say Da-Da (which logically would be included with The Elements), the piano rhythm and chord sequences, the movement of the bass notes.  Listening to some of the Da-Da outtakes, I wouldn't be surprised if the two songs were meant to be siblings!  

So what does this all mean?  We know that the following should be grouped together:

a) H&V -> DYLW
b) Wonderful -> Child
c) Child -> OMP
d) Wind Chimes -> Da-Da (Elements )

Looking at points a) b) and c) we can see that a Side A has been created!  That leaves I'm In Great Shape and Vege-Tables as stand alone tracks, left to fill in the gaps for Side B.  That side is nearly arbitrary, as you have some interchangeable tracks, as we still don't know exactly what constituted I'm In Great Shape and The Elements; I will simply for the sake of argument, take a common sequencing for Side B (more than a coincidence?).  Let's look at our blueprint thus far:

SIDE A
(Our Prayer)
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Do You Like Worms?
3. Wonderful
4. Child is Father of The Man
5. Old Master Painter
6. Cabin Essence

SIDE B
7. Good Vibrations
8. I'm In Great Shape
9. Vege-Tables
10. Wind Chimes
11. The Elements
12. Surf's Up

If you time out both sides, they appear to 18 minutes or so... pretty balanced!  Feel free to tear away at my theories...  ;)  

@soniclovenoize,

That is a very rational explanation of your sequence. It makes a lot of sense to me.

Ditto, this makes a whole lot of sense and could totally see this lineup on the LP in 1967.

Sonic..., that are you using for The Elements? Just Dada or Dada and Fire?

For my personal Elements, it would be Fire Intro/Mrs. O'Leary's Cow/Water Chant/Da-Da.  But as I hinted it, you go back to the same circular arguments "Yeah but what was Wind and Earth?"  and the answer is Wind Chimes and whatever you want earth to be but "Yeah but why do they get their own track and Fire & Water are lumped together as The Elements" and you say I DON"T KNOW YOU BASTARD GO ASK BRIAN WILSON!!  :lol

My Authentic mix I made years ago (pre-BWPS) put I Wanna Be Around in there, in between Mrs. O'Leary's Cow and Water Chant (rebuilding after the fire burned everything down) but I alreday knew that a tape box labeled that as associated with I'm In Great Shape.  So I knew someday when IIGS leaked, I'd have to take it out of Elements and make it a part of it somehow...  When that mp3 leaked, I imagined the tape explosion at the end being a hard edit into IWBA, and I was waiting for a lossless source of that.  Then much to my surprise, BWPS came out, and that was exactly the construction of I'm In Great Shape!  :D  Can I call it or what?!   

Let the record show (no pun intended) that Sloop John B is the last song on side 1 of Pet Sounds. The first song on side 2 is God Only Knows. Along that line of thinking though, maybe side 1 of Smile would have ended with Good Vibrations. Who the heck knows?

Ah!  My mistake!  I'd say my point still stands though as in the eyes of Capitol, they'd want a lead-in single to start off Side B.

Yes, and that is exactly how both H&V and GV are placed on Smiley Smile, as well.

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrryyyyy  Eeeeeeeenterestiiiiiiiiiink.

I only get this passionate about things that affect the fate of the entire planet...and my wife!

...anyhow, my ideal SMiLE for 1967 would include everything that made the cut on BWPS, plus a fully realized "Elements" track, and "He Gives Speeches".  That would have meant a double album.

That's fair enough. I wasn't thinking very straight yesterday, anyway, but you can't deny the list has that haphazard nature of being tossed off with little rhyme or reason. I was merely thinking how that could have happened, with a hangover  :lol. Capitol were on him like crazy for a tracklist, from what I understand, and Brian had no idea - he could have just listed 12 things they recorded in no particular order. We don't know, of course. But we do love to speculate. :)

I mean, as we've stated, as a potential tracklisting it's terrible. And if we're talking about it in a similar sense to the Wild Honey/Pet Sounds potential tracklistings, it's disingenous for someone like krabklaw (who baffles me most in this thread) to go, 'well it's the tracklist! It must be the tracklist!' when they specifically went to pains to say on the mockup, 'this is not the tracklist'.

I don't know. It's all speculation.

I don't think the Dec 66 list etched the running order for Smile in stone and I never said that. I simply believe it's not as random a list as some other people do. For an example, if someone was going to rattle off the songs for a list, why would anyone believe that the very first song to spring to mind would be Do You Like Worms? It was never even finished for gosh sakes. And then the second thing that person remembers is Wind Chimes?  I would think the first track to come to mind would be H&V which they had already put lots of work into and was likely considered the linchpin of the project. Maybe Good Vibrations, which earlier that year had been their biggest hit ever, would be the first or second song one might remember- but would it likely be the fifth? To ME the "see label for correct playing order" text simply meant that Brian Wilson reserved the right to make some changes since Smile was still a work-in-progress. I don't think those six words completely invalidate the order of the songs on that list as one of the most interesting reference points in the Smile story.

So stop putting stock in it then. You say Brian reserved the right to change it. And he did. It's called Smiley Smile, if you want to be like that.


There are far too many variables. We may have our opinions, mine being that the list is merely Brian, or Carl and Diane pestering Brian (Moise and Cam's point leads me to this one really), reeling off twelve tunes they've recorded without much thought. Capitol are bothering them. Say something . But that tracklist leaves so much unanswered. And man, that's just what I think!

You can't say 'Well, gee, after listening to this stuff for god knows how long I wouldn't have listed DYLW first!' and expect me to take that any more seriously than me typing nonsense upthread in quotation marks.

Let It Bleed...same situation where the tracks stated on the back of the album are in no way shape or form even close to the running order.

To Curtis Leon.


No, I couldn't. My last pre-TSS mix did end with Vega-Tables, but that V-T mix ended with the ballad insert followed by the slow Do A Lot as a fade out. That worked pretty well for me.



See Been Too Long's posting: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11296.msg233081.html#msg233081



I didn't ignore it, it wasn't my point. My point was that a previously released single could very well end side 2. Your claim was that it never happened so no single could ever have been the last track of SMiLE. That claim is - IMHO - wrong.

If you claim that GV might have closed side one because a single closed side one of Today, Summer Nights, and Pet Sounds, I say: That could be possible.



A. and B. are true. But C. - "Caroline, No" was highlighted on the front cover alongside "Sloop John B." inspite of A. and B. - is also true. Seemingly A. and B. weren't that important for Capitol.

To soniclovenoize.


But WIBN was not the lead single of Pet Sounds - Sloop John B. was.

Sloop John B. : released March 21 1966
Pet Sounds: released May 16 1966
Wouldn't It be Nice: released July 18 1966

So, had Pet Sounds never been released after the SJB single, and not knowing WIBN would later be a single, and would you try to construct a line up for Pet Sounds using your logic you would end up with SJB as first track.

In fact the last two BB albums before Pet Sounds did not start with a single.

I'm afraid you are trying to prove your assumption by picking the facts that fit your theory and neglecting the facts that do not. IMHO.



My pre-BWPS mixes ended with Good Vibrations, so I can feel your surprise.



Do we know that, really? I cannot remember reading that outside of message boards. But I can easily be convinced if you tell me the source for that claim.

For instance, I'm convinced that my not liking Surf's Up as a closer does not prove at all that a 1967 SMiLE wouldn't have ended with Surf's Up. But at least the opposite can't be proven either.

Was Good Vibrations supposed to be on Smle? Most likely, yes. Like Sloop John B., for years people thought Capitol forced it onto Pet Sounds. Now, we know that was never the case. Brian understands the recording business and what to expect from the suits making the decisions. I'm sure Brian knew from the outset, that GV would be a track on Smile, whether as an artistic statement or simply as a business one.

My mistake - I tried to make that post as myth free as possible, but it seems one slipped through the cracks out from under me. (I would like to point out that I never said Sloop John B on Pet Sounds wasn't Brian's idea, though.)

No, my claim was that assuming a Top Ten hit could violate the established rules of American track listing is unlikely, if not near impossible. Caroline, No gets to be an exception simply because it was released after the finished track list was decided, and again, wasn't a hit. Sloop John B didn't get that special treatment. Again, Good Vibrations was the ONLY single released in the SMiLE era.

If we would go back to Smiley Smile for a moment, Good Vibrations starts side 2 on that, fitting with the established tradition of putting the single on the beginning or the middle of an album.

Was there a small chance it could've closed a '67 SMiLE? Sure. There's a small chance of ANYTHING when dealing with SMiLE.

Is it so unlikely that treating it as something that had a real, likely chance of happening doesn't work when dealing with the precedent and record label politics of that time period? Again, yes.

To micha
Yeah, I suppose that's true, if you pretend that SJB was intended for Pet Sounds instead of as a stand alone single, and pretend that it was recorded along with the album sessions.  

Looks like what you and I are counting as "lead single" is very different.  I wouldn't count it as the lead single at all.  But I'm really uninterested in debating it with you in a thread called "How do YOU think SMiLE would have went", clearly meant to be subjective, especially if you're going to uses loaded words like a douchebag.  

I'm afraid you are putting words into my mouth and arguing semantics, but if that's how you get your jollies, so be it.  

Prove me wrong.

All right then, so please define what exactly is a lead single. Maybe I do get something wrong.



I'm sorry, but English is not my first language - what do you mean with loaded words? Honestly! Did I use words that seemed to be insulting?



Well, of course it would take too long to put together all parts of the universe where there is no sign of Capitol forcing GV onto SMiLE against Brian's wishes. And besides, I asked for evidence first. ::)

I agree with everything you say in this post. (I'm not sure though if I really get the last sentence right - it is a bit complicated, sounds right at least.) My point was that even though singles were placed at the beginning or in the middle of albums more often than at the end, there were precedents and we can't rule it out that GV could have closed SMiLE - I can't rule out that Surf's Up may have been the closer.

I:
1 - Prayer / Heroes & Villains (extended)
2 - Vega-Tables
3 - Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
4 - He Gives Speeches
5 - Cabinessence

II:
1 - Good Vibrations
2 - Do You Like Worms
3 - Wind Chimes
4 - Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine
5 - Wonderful
6 - Surf's Up
7 - Child is Father of the Man

Disagree re 'had no idea' - Brian didn't work outside the titles on the list until the announcement of Smile’s scrapping some 5 months later. He also didn't work outside the list to a significant degree in preceding 3 months. Of course, I realize we have little idea what comprised IIGS, etc..

So, we have a handwritten track list, a cover mock up with same track list, and VDP affirming said track list...seems clear these were the titles intended for the LP. I'm not positing it's the truth but I don't see how primary source evidence is dismissed outright. The 12-trackers here are treated not unlike Apollo 11 deniers at NASA. I can dig that but it pains me to see SMILE go down in history as this huge jumbled ball of confusion - this shortchanges all that Brian accomplished as a troubled 24 year old buckling under the weight of unrelenting pressure and unreasonable expectations.

I mean your average SMILE article gives the impression he recorded with no idea what for. Why is that? I think in part it’s lazy journalism but then you have Mark Linnet on Icon Fetch saying “it didn’t come out is because all we had were a bunch of bits and pieces” or “before 2004 it was just a jumble of sessions.”  It's like painting Ted Williams as a .220 hitter that swung for the fences every at bat. I’ve rambled enough and should celebrate the moment. Sigh, I guess it’s part and parcel of being a devote - mind you a devotee with 1/20th the post count as you all  :p

I mostly agree Chris but I took it that Mark was saying it was a jumble to him/us today rather than he was opining it was a jumble to Brian back then.

I don't have the truth either, but as far as I know (and if I'm wrong I'd be happy to stand corrected) VDP only said it would have been 12 tracks, but not that it would have been exactly those 12 songs on that list - which Brian claims to have never seen (which may be the truth or a lack of memory).

If the list was the final one, the back covers would have been printed. But the fact they weren't printed indicates to me that it was made just to have a back cover designed with the option to last minute changes.

I don't think it is rock solid that the covers were never printed, in fact I think it is extremely more likely they were rather than they weren't.  As I understand it what was in the warehouse was described as covers, what is described on this board as "slicks" were called "liners" by Capitol's 1966-67 production department. If it was boxes of liners ["slicks"] only in the warehouse they would not be called covers by the production department. Covers had a front liner and a back liner and a cardboard jacket.

Subcontractors produced the covers for Capitol, in the case of the SMiLE cover the subs were BertCo in LA and Queens Litho in NY. BertCo says it did its cover fabrication in house, they printed the litho front liners and a plain black on white bond paper back liner and they applied both to the jackets and shipped them to Capitol. The back liners were applied in a different way than they were for most labels. Queens Litho got a PO for covers from Capitol, Queens printed the litho front liners and shipped them to a subcontractor who printed the black on white bond paper back liner and then assembled Queens front liner and the bond paper back liner they printed to their cardboard jacket and shipped the finished covers to Capitol's Scranton warehouse. So I think it is almost a certainty that what was in Capitol's warehouse were finished covers and not boxes of litho front liners. Also Mike said in June that the covers for SMiLE had been done since April.

That still leaves the tracklist question of what tracklist was on those supposed finished covers. I tried to find out but the records seem to not be there anymore. If Queens Litho hadn't had a fire in the 80s or so, we might have had more info. Their old card catalog had info for other BB albums but not SMiLE.  However in March Derek Taylor describes both the mock up of the album and the titles on the mock up and the upcoming album and there is no variation from the list titles and it is described as an album of 12 songs. I think this might be another one of those things we try to make complicated or vague that was really more straightforward.

Reading through all the media/press atricles/Brian interviews about the upcoming Smile album in LLVS, one thing stays the same from October to April - that it was going to be a "12 track album."  There are 12 tracks listed on the back slick version we have, and Brian only recorded music for those 12 tracks after the titles were submitted (until Dada in May after Derek Taylor's pronouncement of Smile's death) (OK, he did record You're Welcome in december after the track list was submitted.  I have a theory about that, but it's neither here nor there). 

the next question is how did Brian choose the songs for the list and how did he choose the order of the songs.  One possible way is that he listed the songs he had most recently worked on first, then tracked back to complete the list.  Looking at the sessions that method doesn't hold up. 

Another way he might have chosen the list was to start with the songs that were completely or nearly completely written and the tracks recorded - i.e. start with the songs nearest completion, and list the songs not started yet or still being worked on at the end.  This fits the list better, but not perfectly.  Worms, Wind chimes, Surf's Up (only half complete), Cabin Essence, Wonderful tracking were done.  Heroes doesn't really fit in third place but perhaps Brian thought it had been finished in terms of writing at this point - which of course we know was not to be the case.  The next songs, Shape obviously unfinished, Child the track mostly finished but the verse and bridge lyrics/melody unfinished, Elements not done, Vega-tables not started (as the cornucopia version that was to part of the Elements is no longer usable as its' own track).  The Old Master Painter appears to be mostly finished, but perhaps Brian already knew he was going to take the OMP fade for Heroes and so it would become incomplete and in need of further recording/writing.  The line through OMP may also indicate he wasn't certain about including the song at all, but needed a 12th track and decided he could do something more with it later to make it an acceptable track on the album.

We mostly agree that as a final track order the list doesn't work very well.  I certainly understand the argument that the fact Brian (or Diane or Carl talking to Brian) comes up with Worms first COULD indicate it was to come first - it came first to his mind - but don't we have handwritten track lists for Pet Sounds and Wild Honey?  Were the first songs listed on those lists the first songs on the albums?

I don't doubt at all that in whatever way Brian would have edited a master for SMiLE in 1967, the back cover would have listed 12 songs. But not necessarily the 12 songs on the list. Definitely most of those 12, maybe exactly those 12, but not necessarily.

My main point of concern is the crossed out brackets which indicates that the final lineup was still thought about and that this list was made especially in order to be able to design the back cover. As most of these tracks would have appeared on the record, for the final printing you wouldn't have to substitute more than two track titles at most, and you're done.

The booklet was printed, wasn't it? That, as we all know, states V-T as part of The Elements, so that would contradict the track list, as we all know. I'm sure that at least V-T would have been substituted. All MHO.

Well now, that is rather huge. Excellent research my man. I'm a bit surprised no one has commented....arguably game-changing information here.

Aw shucks, thanks.

Because the records don't seem to be there anymore, it is all still conjecture somewhat. BertCo did not keep their records from back then. Tens years ago, Queens Litho still had some records from back then but since I think I've heard that Queens Litho had sold so who knows what is left if anything now. Anyway, even then the records for the SMiLE album were among the records that were missing. Maybe something from them will turn up some how somewhere.

On the other hand, I think the record as known shows us already that the complete covers were fabricated and delivered to two Capitol warehouses. And the testimony about the covers already show they had a tracklist, and that tracklist had titles, it had 12 titles and none of the witnessed titles varied from the only known 12 track list. Tracks witnessed as on the SMiLE album were H&V, V-T, W, DYLW, SU, CE, WC, TE and that was in late March.  So that leaves 4 tracks un-named. 

I don't know, but the fact is, "Our Prayer" would have been right in the middle of the album.

I once had a dream where the night before BWPS was going to be released in 2004 Mike Love sneaked into the Sunset Sound building and stole the mastertape of the album before it was to be distributed and replaced the tracklisting as revenge for not being involved in the project:

Mike Love Presents SMiLE:

Our Prayer
Summer in Paradise
Still Cruisin'
Kokomo
Looking Back With Love
The Little Old Lady from Pasadena
Monster Mash

Long, Tall Texan
Jingle Bell Rock
Santa's Goin' To Kokomo
Viggie
Rock 'n' Roll Country Bride/Surf's Up/Wrinkles (medley)
Brian Is Back

"Mike Love Presents Smile" sounds like it is going to sell a million units in January.

Yes, please.

Side 1:
Our Prayer-not listed, but on the label with only a running time
Heroes and Villains - GV Box "alternate" version
Wonderful - GV Box version
Old Master Painter - Medley with You Are My Sunshine
Cabinessence - GV Box version
Child Is Father of The Man - Look with Child chant over the middle sections
Do You Like Worms - 3:19 edit with one plymouth rock, wordless bicycle rider, hawaiian chant, fuzz bass coda w/ harpsichord turnaround, bicycle rider with chorus

Side 2:
Good Vibrations - Single version
I'm In Great Shape - Here is where I depart from every tracklist I've ever seen.  I use Holidays.  You can almost sing the line "fresh zen air around my head (pause) mornings tumble out of bed" along with the melody after the flute intro.  You then have to speed up and sing the eggs and grits line immediately (with the H&V demo melody) to correlate with the chords.  I love Whispering Winds as the fade.  I know some don't, but it's a nice segue into:
Wind Chimes - GV Box version
Vega-Tables - I've always used the GV Box version, but my ultimate psychedelic mix has the Cornucopia version with the "Swedish Frogs" laid behind it.  I usually stick to the GV Box version.
The Elements-I use an old edit with Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (without the drums slow ending, that fades to Workshop that fades to the Water Chant.
Surf's Up - I use the solo double-tracked demo on the GV Box.  As I like to think, the album begins and ends wordlessly, just pure sound of the human voice singing high over everything.

I came up with this list a long time ago, and still use it, and finally came up with a story for it.  Brian has said (I think it was an Ear Candy Mag interview from 04) that BWPS was much happier, more uplifting, et c.  I took that to mean that SMiLE in 1967 would have been a downer.  Consequently, every three songs can be looked at as a suite focusing on some of the big themes of SMiLE (romance, manifest destiny, spirituality, and creation/destruction).  Each suite starts with a pushing, driving song (Heroes and Villains, Cabinessence, Good Vibrations, Vega-Tables), then a conflicted song with duality (Wonderful, Child Is Father of The Man, I'm In Great Shape, The Elements) and finally with a song that includes some kind of mourning (Old Master Painter, Do You Like Worms, Wind Chimes, Surf's Up). 

I am of the opinion that the track list is the track list.   

I just came across this thread...but just the other day I was wondering the same question.  Brian's "modern" version of Smile has the luxury of digital technology.  He could fit it onto a compact disc...therefore not being constrained by time.  The LP that comes with the boxed set features Brian's complete version...but it's spread over three sides and we all know that the original Smile, if it would have come out, would have been a single LP.  Obviously, Brian's complete version contains material that simply could not have fit onto a standard LP back in 1967.  I've always felt that was one of Brian's biggest issues (and maybe I'm stating the obvious)...what to do with ALL of this material?  How do I put it all together so that it flows...yet fits on one LP?  With the basic editing he would have had access to in 1967 (manually cutting and pasting) I can imagine how it could have just slipped away.  Brian just kept recording and erasing and recording and erasing.  The original LP fell apart because of Brian's inability to complete it.  I wonder if all of this had anything to do with it?

Our Prayer
Heroes And Villains
I'm In Great Shape
Barnyard
Cabin Essence
Good Vibrations

Wonderful
Wind Chimes
Do You Like Worms
You're Welcome
Surf's Up

He should have put more songs per CD track so he could fit more songs on the CD, the scam artist.

All i know is i'd hope they'd have stuck with Do You Dig Worms as a title, which is a great double pun, and thus a better title than Do You Like Worms...

1. Prayer/H&V - Not the '67 explosion edit, something closer to what we got on TSS
2. IIGS/BY
3. DYLW
4. Cabinessence
5. Wonderful - Rock With Me Henry Version - See Below
6. OMP+YAMS with the Barnshine ending. Doesn't Brian call this the big finale? It could be ending the first side - and it fits.

7. GV
8. CIFOTM
9. SU
10. Veggies, TSS version
11. Wind Chimes
12. The Elements is Fire and Dada. Dada bookends it all with it's Our Prayer snippet.

Why is Wonderful the one with the RWMHs?

Because it's the most fleshed out. It has the biggest instrumental track, Brian or Carl could re-record the lead, the bass vox could be re-recorded to be perfected and possibly with new lyrics, and all those yamma-yamma/be-yoop vocals would work in there, somebody even sings a little bit of RWMH on the TSS track. Maybe a little vocal break or something.

Sleep a lot chorus on Veggies is essential, as is that amazing fade.

The last track is half-assed on my part. I don't think SU makes a good closer for Smile. GV would either end Side One or start the second one, and I think it fits better as an opener for Side Two, Barnshine ends a side quite nicely. I'm about to start another thread on how insanely enigmatic Dada/CCW/IBW is, so that will be addressed some other time.

I hate CIFOTM, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't fit anywhere, but it's on the slick.

Now, the Singles:

Heroes and Villains, '67 exploding cantina B/W the mythical H&V, Pt. 2. So, in a sense, the single is very different from the album version, but gives a taster of what is on Smile.

Veggies, B/W Wind Chimes

SU, B/W either Cabinessence or Wonderful

How do YOU think Smile would have "gone," not "went," for high holy heaven's sake!!!

You're killing me.

We KNOW where it went. Back on the shelf.  :afro

So, I have listened to more of the SMiLE Sessions and I think I'm ready to alter this mix, so that it includes I'm In Great Shape and other music that I had left off the above mix.  Here's what my SMiLE looks like today:

Our Prayer
Heroes and Villains
The Old Master Painter
Cabinessence
Do You Like Worms
Child Is Father of The Man
Surf's Up

Wind Chimes
The Elements - Fire
Vega-Tables
I'm In Great Shape - From the SMiLE Sessions disc 1
Wonderful
Good Vibrations
You're Welcome

Obviously Our Prayer and You're Welcome are not on the tracklist, but they represent an invocation and a coda.

what's with all this "Our Prayer is not listed on the album", "Our Prayer is a hidden track", "Our Prayer won't be listed on the record" stuff?

Is there some quote from Brian that I've never read, "So, uh, get this - the first song on the album is this wordless bag called Our Prayer, but the thing is, no one's gonna know it's on the album, we're not gonna put it on the track listin' and it'll surprise people" or something?

He says it's not a track on the album, just something to open it, in the studio chatter. This is reinforced by the Capitol memo where it's not listed as a track either.

"Could this be considered a track?" "No, we don't wanna do that...it's just a little intro to the album"

well, I guess Smile fandom is all about taking offhand remarks and grossly exaggerating them.

Or maybe it is about exaggerating the importance of one's own thoughts over preserved, documented, available evidence from the composers and performers themselves, at the very moment of creation.

No, no, Aegir has a point. After all, this is why we don't believe that Do You Like Worms is really called Do You Like Worms, just because Brian off-handedly called it that at the time.

Was there a track on Pet Sounds called "Dogs and Train?"

Its written on the fucking box.

It's off-handedly written on the box. Stop exaggerating.

Exactly, which is why MY Smile track lineup is inevitably the correct one:


(Prayer)
H&V
Wonderful
Holiday
Cabin Essence
The Elements (Fire)
Child

GV
Wind
Look
Veg
Worms
Surfs Up

But the Prayer thing isn't an offhand comment. It is Brian seriously telling the group what the plan for the album is, at least that day. That Prayer is the intro to the album, and that it isn't meant to be a "track" e.g. listed on the album as a separate item. All tracklists for Smile changed thusly after that tape came to light.

Dudes - Spaceman and Bubba, I'm on your side here. It was a joke.

Ahhh, sorry about that. You know how serious things get here.

I realize that....now.... (Frank Drebin)

I'm the locksmith...and I'm the locksmith. (obscure? Police Squad reference)

You hate "Child..."? Crazy. Such a beautiful track, and gorgeous vocals. One of my favorites from SMiLE.

Even though you're making fun of me, that's really funny.

 ;D LIKE

all i'm pretty sure about is that Surf's Up would have been the final track of the album. forget whatever happened to BWPS, SU was gonna be the final piece as Brian valued it the most and would have insisted on its inclusion as an ending to the album.

Brian is the one who insisted Surf's Up wasn't the end of the album. Now that my mind has been liberated from trying to make Smile into Sgt. Pepper, the one thing I am absolutely sure of regarding Smile is that Surf's Up wasn't the finale. That's not the way Brian thought in the 60's.

he also said Smile was a happy album, it's the darkest stuff he ever did (until SS ofc  ;D). I can hardly imagine smiling due to the supposed 'happy sounds' inside... I simply smile because the music is heavenly, not that it is happy music in any way.

"It's a p*ssy song." - Brian Wilson

It doesn't HAVE to be at the end, but that's where it sounds best on my personal mix.

Vosse said in the '69 interview that it would close the album and there'd be a sort of "ah-men" thing. But that doesn't really mean anything either.

You just got to roll it to your own needs. Which is what I have done. And I've finally nailed it, getting it into a form which works FOR ME. I'm finished worrying about history and what goes where. This is it.  And this is how I've been listening to the music for the past 9 months.  Now I'm at peace and not sitting in front of a computer recording myself singing "A'once upON the Sandwich Isle the social structure steamed upon HawAIIIIIIIII!".

YES!

All in stereo 'cause I like stereo- this follows the Capitol memo sequence fairly closely with a couple of liberties, notably Wind Chimes is moved to Side 2 to precede The Elements- Air, and IIGS is bumped to follow Vega-Tables to create a Barnyard Suite coupled with The Old Master Painter/ You Were My Sunshine. I'm really good with this version for now. Unless more stuff is discovered, this might be the ultimate Smile mix for me.

SIDE 1
(Intro- Our Prayer) 1:06
Do You Like Worms- (my edit with Holidays edited in) 4:17
Heroes & Villains  (my own edit) 5:44
(Interlude- George Fell Into His French Horn) :56
Surf's Up 4:23
Good Vibrations (my edit with Inspiration edited in) 4:51
Cabin Essence 3:42

SIDE 2
(Intro- He Gives Speeches) 1:10
Wonderful 2:10
Child Is Father Of the Man (my own edit- includes Look aka Song  For Children) 4:38
Wind Chimes 3:08
The Elements
   Air- Second Day 1:15
   Fire- Intro To Fire/ Mrs. O'Leary's Cow 2:15
   Water- Love To Say Dada 1:34
   Earth- I Wanna Be Around/ Friday Night aka Workshop1:26
(Interlude- Brian Falls Into A Piano) 1:26
Vega-Tables 3:51
(Heroes & Villains Reprise) 1:03
I'm In Great Shape (The Barnyard Suite- my own edit- IIGS/Barnyard/Eat A Lot (H&V version)/IIGS) 3:03
The Old Master Painter (TOMP/ You Were My Sunshine/ H&V edit- 'My Children Were Raised'/ Barnshine 3:12

This is my ideal fantasy Smile cut. Really too long to have been released in this form in 1967, but it includes most of my favorite Smile bits, and it flows really great as a unified album IMO.

To me the record shows Brian was capable and well on his way to completing SMiLE. The problem wasn't knowing or doing or getting what he wanted, he very deliberately got what he wanted by revising and fine tuning in a very adventurous ways. The problem was that when he got what he wanted it just didn't work for him. Who hasn't planned and worked very hard on something they are very excitied about and get to where you felt it's done and come to the realization you're not that crazy about what you were so excited about?

Um...never? If I am dissatisfied, it's probably because I didn't get what I want and maybe it's becase I didn't really know exactly what I wanted in the first place. It seems me that that was precisely Brian's problem with completing Smile.

Fair enough, mileage may very.

But it is interesting that Brian had it all planned out before he went into the studio, identified what all of it was and what for and always [I think always ended with a "final" take] but his reasons at the time for not releasing it were he decided it was too artistic, too elaborate,  not relate-able, old fashioned, but not I couldn't get it the way I wanted or I didn't know what I wanted.

Then why did the plans for what constituted several of the tracks change on a near-daily basis?

Refinement and improvement? Just like GV. The difference: Brian was happy with it when he got it.

Really only H&V and Vt to a lesser extent got much refinement/improvement. The singles, just like GV. The other tracks for the album, not so much: just like PS.  Anyway, that's the way it looks to me.

PS. I said "final take" before but I meant "master take".

What is your source for this claim?


How do you know the way Brian thought in the 60's?

All I can say is, I think Surf's Up would make a terrible ending for a record called "SMiLE". That's why I always ended my own mixes with the sequence Surf's Up -> Prayer -> Good Vibrations. I was quite happy when BWPS ended with GV, plus a Prayer snippet before it!

Yes, at least that day. Personally I think Prayer would have been a turn-off for me if I would take a record called "SMiLE" out of that funny, happy cover, put it on the player not knowing what I would hear.

The track "Prayer" would have been perfect to open an album called "Dumb Angel" though - Brian says "intro to the album", not "intro to SMiLE"...

On the other hand, it opens BWPS, so what do I know? :wink

If you define "all" as "the segment(s) or song Brian wanted to record that day", I agree with you. If youb define "all" as "the whole album" I strongly disagree.

As I remember Brian was saying at the time to journos that he spent a lot time planning before recording and planned and thought in terms of whole albums. Albums of songs that go together like pictures at an exhibition. Something like that. So little deviation from the 12 track list suggests to me that is what he did and we don't have it right about his state of mind regarding the songs or the album.

Also we are always saying he couldn't pull the songs together with so many fragments but we are really talking about GV, H&V, and/or Vt. He did pull together those songs and we refute our own hypothesis. Don't we?

I don't, for one. He attempted to record Wonderful about 4 times in spite of the first version being absolutely great. 2 full weeks of recording Vega-Tables in April led to no finished product, and the version released last year does sound pretty inferior to backing tracks from Pet Sounds that he recorded in one afternoon. Not to mention the songs that he didn't even try to record the vocals. If he was so insecure about what the individual songs should sound like, in a few cases even how they were to be structured, I just can't believe that he was absolutely sure about what songs should be on the album.

I don't believe there is "THE" SMiLE album hidden somewhere in the maelstrom of unfinished and abandoned recordings. In fact I think it is rather likely that DYLW was scrapped altogether when he chose to put the BR theme as the chorus into H&V.

There is the finished version of Vegetables right after H&V on Smiley Smile. He changed Windchimes a few times too but they are on the list and even finished for Smiley, the most evolved songs were finished and not left undone. Also there are not really any new songs outside the list introduced to the album before it is canceled.