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Author Topic: How do YOU think Smile would have went?  (Read 34577 times)
Reverend Rock
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« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2011, 09:40:37 PM »

I am a big believer that Good Vibrations would have started side 2 and that Surf's up would have ended the record.

Until I did the mix described above, I pretty much subscribed to that view as well.  But when I tried to put together a listenable "Smile '67" that did that, somehow it never felt right, which really surprised me.
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« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2011, 09:43:09 PM »

Similar to as presented except...

Substitute "Heroes & Villains Part Two" for "Gee."

Follow "Part Two" with "I'm In Great Shape" & then "Heroes & Villains Part One."

Edit "Vega-tables" to end after the slow ending a la BWPS.

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« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2011, 09:57:13 PM »

This is the SMiLE I made for now:

1. Our Prayer
2. Heroes and Villians (same as SMiLE sessions version, but the 'often wise' verse is put added between the cantina section and final verse)
3. Barnyard
4. Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine
5. Cabinessence
6. Wonderful
7. Child Song
8. Child is the Father of the Man
9. Surfs Up
10. Tone X

11. Good Vibrations
12. I'm In Great Shape
13. I Wanna Be Around/Workshop
14. Vegatables
15. Holidays
16. Wind Chimes
17. Mrs Oleary's Cow
18. I Love to Say Da Da
19. Do You Like Worms (Heroes and Villains part 2?)
20. You're Welcome

Might be too long for an LP, but I like it this way.
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« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2011, 09:58:37 PM »

And it will always be MHO that Surf's Up is a terrible closer for an album called "SMiLE". There must be something more uplifting at the end, like Good Vibrations on BWPS.

That's like saying A Day In The Life is too much of a downer to close Sgt. Pepper.


Well, first of all, ADITL isn't as sad a song as Surf's Up to me, it is not about collapsing worlds and ends with a big major chord. Then, the album isn't called "Sgt. Happy" for instance.

If you have an album cover like the Surf's Up album (the beaten knight), it fits to have a sad ending like Surf's Up. If the album title had been "Dumb Angel", it could have worked. But not on a "SMiLE" album with that happy cover. Only if "SMiLE" is meant ironically.

And...if it's true that "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine (with "false Barnyard" fade) was once considered "the big finale"--well, let's talk about downers...

To me, YWMS and the Barnshine fade is not anywhere near as sad as Surf's Up. The saxophone line that leads to the decending strings has even a comical feel to me, and the fade with the two alternating major chords sounds happy despite the sad lyrics. So IMHO that would be a good ending to "SMiLE".

Another thought: On Pet Sounds, the song that resembles Surf's Up most in feel and scope is IJWMFTT. Still it is not the last song. I bet if Pet Sounds had been left unfinished and IJWMFTT was used as a closer for a later album, everybody would claim that one would have closed Pet Sounds.
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Reverend Rock
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« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2011, 10:03:16 PM »

Another thought: On Pet Sounds, the song that resembles Surf's Up most in feel and scope is IJWMFTT. Still it is not the last song. I bet if Pet Sounds had been left unfinished and IJWMFTT was used as a closer for a later album, everybody would claim that one would have closed Pet Sounds.

I think that in general mood and instrumentation "Surf's Up" resembles "Caroline, No" more than "I Just Wasn't Made..."  And I think that's one of the reasons it has always been such a contender in people's minds for SMiLE closer...not to mention that it's a damn-near-impossible act to follow!

But I think you're right that if Pet Sounds were the "Lost Album" we're discussing, "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" would be a very strong contender for final track in our imaginary track listing.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:06:40 PM by Reverend Rock » Logged
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« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2011, 10:12:27 PM »

Wasn't there some vintage article or something saying the album closed with "Surf's Up"? Or at least that it was true of the album at some point in time, not necessarily always?
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« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2011, 11:40:48 PM »

Wasn't there some vintage article or something saying the album closed with "Surf's Up"? Or at least that it was true of the album at some point in time, not necessarily always?

Vosse said about himself and the "posse" that they felt Surf's Up was the closer. Brian never said so.

I think that in general mood and instrumentation "Surf's Up" resembles "Caroline, No" more than "I Just Wasn't Made..."  And I think that's one of the reasons it has always been such a contender in people's minds for SMiLE closer...not to mention that it's a damn-near-impossible act to follow!

How about following it with "Prayer" and "Good Vibrations"? Grin

In case I'm coming off as stubborn, I know all this is just my opinion, SMiLE was not finished in its era so we can't possibly know for certain it would not have closed with Surf's Up back then.

(At least in 2004 it didn't.)
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« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2011, 03:11:11 AM »

And it will always be MHO that Surf's Up is a terrible closer for an album called "SMiLE". There must be something more uplifting at the end, like Good Vibrations on BWPS.

That's like saying A Day In The Life is too much of a downer to close Sgt. Pepper.


Well, first of all, ADITL isn't as sad a song as Surf's Up to me, it is not about collapsing worlds and ends with a big major chord. Then, the album isn't called "Sgt. Happy" for instance.

If you have an album cover like the Surf's Up album (the beaten knight), it fits to have a sad ending like Surf's Up. If the album title had been "Dumb Angel", it could have worked. But not on a "SMiLE" album with that happy cover. Only if "SMiLE" is meant ironically.

Well, Brian himself said that the original '67 SMiLE was supposed to be less "uplifting". Album titles had, and still have about as much relevance to the actual music inside as a rock (Pet Sounds sure isn't uplifting either, despite the happy cover with all of the band members smiling at the petting zoo.) Surf's Up is just such a majestic song that it doesn't fit properly anywhere else but on the end of the album - not without major additions to other songs ala BWPS. It's literally the ADITL of SMiLE. Hell, if Brian was actually paying attention to the title, a dark song like Surf's Up never would've made the cut in the first place. Or Fire, for that matter.

Good Vibrations never would've been on the tail end. Album practices back then effectively forced singles to be either the end of side one, or the beginning of side two. This wasn't Britain where artists could release their albums without paying attention to singles at all. Not until Sgt. Pepper would that dichotomy be broken.   

Vega-Tables just doesn't work. It wasn't even close to a finished state by any conceivable 12 song SMiLE timeline.  And it would probably force Surf's Up back up the track list a pretty long way. (Probably all the way up to the end of Side one). (Surf's Up - Vega-Tables is so jarring that Brian would have to be on acid to consider it.) The fact that Vegetables was the second song on Smiley Smile should be telling. It just doesn't make a good album closer. When you hear the end of a "Teenage Symphony to God", you expect something epic.

Our Prayer is laughable. Brian upright states that it's the intro to the album in the recording session. Now, a Prayer reprise ala BWPS I can maybe accept, though that would bring up a whole multitude of questions regarding Brian's track recall during 2004.

I suppose the only thing I can think of that could go on the end of a '67 SMiLE is You're Welcome - either as a hidden track or a fade in from Surf's Up. And that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, considering it wasn't on the track list and I believe it wasn't recorded until after the plans for a finished SMiLE fell through. Still, it's barely a track in its own right - not much more so than Our Prayer, at least.
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« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2011, 03:45:47 AM »

Vega-Tables just doesn't work. It wasn't even close to a finished state by any conceivable 12 song SMiLE timeline. 

How's that?

Also, what constitutes a "track"?
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« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2011, 03:50:31 AM »

I think that original idea probably consisted of 14 tightly edited tracks of approx 3 minutes in length. There were (possibly) short pieces of music linking some tracks.

I would stick to the tracks on the printed album cover...

Heroes & Villains
Do You Like Worms? (with additional lyrics and vocal arrangements)
Wind Chimes
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence (possibly with VDPs discarded lyrics mixed in somehow)
Wonderful
I'm in Great Shape-   (developed as a full 3-minute track)
Child Is Father of the Man-   (with lyrics and possibly other sections)
The Elements-   (with Parts 2,3 and 4 which are possibly unrecorded)
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter-  (developed as a full 3 minute track)
Surf's Up

I would say 2 things (no doubt controversial)

1. I don't think any of the Smile tracks were properly completed (not during the original sessions anyhow) and therefore they are all likely to sound different from the music we are used to hearing. I think there would have definately been more lyrics and vocals for a start. I also think it would have been edited to smoothly flow together as a "whole" album.

2. I think Brian was starting work on other musical projects during the Smile Sessions and not everything we hear was necessarily intended for the album. I say this based on things I have read about him.
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« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2011, 03:56:32 AM »


Side 1
1. Heroes & Villains (Incorporating Prayer at the start, then just Brian's March '67 Single Edit)
2. I'm In Great Shape/Barnyard
3. My Only Sunshine
4. Do You Like Worms
5. Wind Chimes
6. Cabinessence.

Side 2.
1. Good Vibrations
2. Friday Night/Workshop Intro/Vega-tables
3. Fire
4. Wonderful
5. Child Is The Father of The Man
6. Surf's Up.

Have revised my sequence slightly - Swapped the Barnyard Suite so it's all in one place, sounds better that way when I was listening to it, and I'm too lazy to fade things out. Stuck Workshop in there, too, because it's only a minute and it's funny. Using TSS mixes (And Adam78s for DYLW, as I wanted to get it as 'complete' as possible, and the GV single mix, as that's accurate), it runs to 37:20, which is palatable? Sounds rather good, too.

But the recent revelation that Holidays had lyrics is a gamechanger. That places it above it's usual 'nice instrumental, but he never did anything with it' status. It's clear there was a bigger plan for it, and that it wasn't DYLW in radical form, but a unique work. *scratches head*
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« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2011, 06:07:39 AM »


Vega-Tables just doesn't work. It wasn't even close to a finished state by any conceivable 12 song SMiLE timeline.

I think the ‘cornucopia’ version was more than a demo - those backing vocals are rather ornate and well rehearsed for a demo.  I suspect it was recorded as an album track at the time. Do we have a firm recording date for the 'cornucopia’ version
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« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2011, 10:34:20 AM »

Surf's Up is just such a majestic song that it doesn't fit properly anywhere else but on the end of the album

Says you! I say Good Vibrations is just such a majestic song that it doesn't fit properly anywhere else but on the end of the album.

Good Vibrations never would've been on the tail end. Album practices back then effectively forced singles to be either the end of side one, or the beginning of side two.

Well, Pet Sounds had the A-side of a single at the end of side two: Caroline, No. It is even highlighted on the front cover. Actually Party too had a single at the end of side two, although that was released after the album. Pet Sounds on the other hand had originally not a single track at the start of side two - GOK was released as a B-side and only some time after the album. Your claim where singles were "forced" to be placed does not hold up to reality.

I suppose the only thing I can think of that could go on the end of a '67 SMiLE is You're Welcome - either as a hidden track or a fade in from Surf's Up.

I can't see YW as a closer at all. It's like a circus coming to town, inviting to listen to the album, and could if intended for SMiLE at all only be the opener, replacing Prayer - IMHO. It would work chordwise if followed by H&V, anyway.

Still, it's barely a track in its own right - not much more so than Our Prayer, at least.

I absolutely agree with you about "You're Welcome" there.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:43:03 AM by Micha » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2011, 04:01:10 PM »

You're Welcome makes no sense as a closing track, due to the lyrics "You're welcome to come".  It might make sense as some sort of opening track, but we know that Our Prayer was designated to open the album.  So it really fits no where. Some people have said it's like saying "you're welcome" for the album, thus it makes sense as a closer, but those lyrics, "to come" at the end really invalidate that argument for me.
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« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2011, 09:44:11 PM »

"Surf's Up" is a song that stands alone in the history of music.  Really, nothing else on SMiLE touches it in terms of sheer poetry and artistry.  Whether it would have closed SMiLE will be debated forever, I guess, but it is a very hard song to follow.  It's placement in the center of BWPS is ingenious, because it is done in such a way that effectively makes it the true center of the work.  In a three-movement work of performance art, it works wonderfully there.  But the conventional pop LP could have never contained what SMiLE became when it was completed. 

The conventional LP record of the mid-20th century is literally an entirely different way of experiencing music from how we experience music today.  SMiLE as it was completed in 2004 (and as it exists on TSS) would have never worked as an LP, and that's what makes this hypothetical process so tricky.
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« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2011, 10:25:08 PM »

"Surf's Up" is a song that stands alone in the history of music.  Really, nothing else on SMiLE touches it in terms of sheer poetry and artistry.  Whether it would have closed SMiLE will be debated forever, I guess, but it is a very hard song to follow.  It's placement in the center of BWPS is ingenious, because it is done in such a way that effectively makes it the true center of the work.  In a three-movement work of performance art, it works wonderfully there.  But the conventional pop LP could have never contained what SMiLE became when it was completed. 

The conventional LP record of the mid-20th century is literally an entirely different way of experiencing music from how we experience music today.  SMiLE as it was completed in 2004 (and as it exists on TSS) would have never worked as an LP, and that's what makes this hypothetical process so tricky.
I always thought Surf's Up would do pretty well as the end of side 1 for SMiLE with Good Vibrations as the final track. End SMiLE on an upbeat note.
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« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2011, 03:31:14 AM »


Vega-Tables just doesn't work. It wasn't even close to a finished state by any conceivable 12 song SMiLE timeline.

I think the ‘cornucopia’ version was more than a demo - those backing vocals are rather ornate and well rehearsed for a demo.  I suspect it was recorded as an album track at the time. Do we have a firm recording date for the 'cornucopia’ version

Eh. Often enough, you'll hear a demo that basically has everything a final has, but exists in a different quality and may have some subtle changes throughout, but still with lots of detail.
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« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2011, 10:26:42 AM »

The Old Master Painter is the last track on the Capitol tracklisting of Dec. 66. On the TSS Disc 3 Track 6 at 5:55 refers to Part 2 of You Were My Sunshine as "the big finale". Like it or not, that's some pretty strong evidence that in '66 it was Brian's intention to use  the OMP/YWMS track as the album closer. I agree with the poster that said Part 2 of YWMS ends the album on an upbeat note which is appropriate for an album named 'Smile'. As for the posts that ask "How do you follow Surf's Up on an album? It's so great." Well, Good Vibrations sounds terriffic following Surf's Up, and that is how the Capitol tracklist is sequenced, so why not? Just sayin'- I understand that we all have our own preferences and pet theories. That is what makes Smile unique.
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« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2011, 11:01:39 AM »

*angry post about how that list wasn't written by Brian, how he's recording the END of a song when he says that, and then used it as the fade of potentially the lead single of the album not long afterwards, and how ending your avantgarde spiritual pop statement with You Are My Sunshine would be the uncoolest thing imaginable. all to say you're really wrong*
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« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2011, 11:28:02 AM »

*angry post about how that list wasn't written by Brian, how he's recording the END of a song when he says that, and then used it as the fade of potentially the lead single of the album not long afterwards, and how ending your avantgarde spiritual pop statement with You Are My Sunshine would be the uncoolest thing imaginable. all to say you're really wrong*
Are there other instances of Brian in the studio referring to the final section of a song as "the big finale"?  I don't listen to all that stuff. As for the '66 tracklist, it doesn't seem logical to me that the song titles were just drawn out of a hat. To me, that is "strong evidence". I don't make any claims as to knowing what is right or "really wrong" as far as what Smile's final form would have been in 67. If some fans like to have their own fan mixes end with Surf's Up or You're Welcome I'm cool with that.
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« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2011, 05:50:06 PM »

Eh. Often enough, you'll hear a demo that basically has everything a final has, but exists in a different quality and may have some subtle changes throughout, but still with lots of detail.

Sure but how often did Brian record full group 'demos' at Columbia in 1966? I think it was a serious attempt to track the song (or part of the song) - possibly when it was still part of The Elements.
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« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2011, 07:00:50 PM »

*angry post about how that list wasn't written by Brian, how he's recording the END of a song when he says that, and then used it as the fade of potentially the lead single of the album not long afterwards, and how ending your avantgarde spiritual pop statement with You Are My Sunshine would be the uncoolest thing imaginable. all to say you're really wrong*
Are there other instances of Brian in the studio referring to the final section of a song as "the big finale"?  I don't listen to all that stuff. As for the '66 tracklist, it doesn't seem logical to me that the song titles were just drawn out of a hat. To me, that is "strong evidence". I don't make any claims as to knowing what is right or "really wrong" as far as what Smile's final form would have been in 67. If some fans like to have their own fan mixes end with Surf's Up or You're Welcome I'm cool with that.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the tracklist was also a preliminary track sequencing.  The sleeves that were printed up based on the tracklist specifically said "see label for correct playing order."  No, the titles weren't randomly drawn, but it's a pretty big leap of logic to suggest that it was anything more than a list of the most completed songs intended to get the record company off Brian's back. 
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« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2011, 07:09:14 PM »

The Old Master Painter is the last track on the Capitol tracklisting of Dec. 66. On the TSS Disc 3 Track 6 at 5:55 refers to Part 2 of You Were My Sunshine as "the big finale". Like it or not, that's some pretty strong evidence that in '66 it was Brian's intention to use  the OMP/YWMS track as the album closer.

Or......................

It means the song would have ended either H&V or YWMS
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« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2011, 07:22:42 PM »

*angry post about how that list wasn't written by Brian, how he's recording the END of a song when he says that, and then used it as the fade of potentially the lead single of the album not long afterwards, and how ending your avantgarde spiritual pop statement with You Are My Sunshine would be the uncoolest thing imaginable. all to say you're really wrong*

True story.

Also, "See label for correct playing order."
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« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2011, 07:26:31 PM »

I have no doubt that the original SMiLE would have ended with one of these songs,

Surf's Up (most likely)
Good Vibrations (not so)
or
Cabin Essence (IMHO very likely)

Why?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE INCREDIBLE FADES! THE ALBUM NEEDS TO FADE OUT YOU KNOW!
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