How do YOU think Smile would have went?

[runnersdialzero]

I disagree - what you refer to as "Heroes And Villains IX" is clearly a reworking of the previous track, and should thus be correctly identified as "Heroes And Villains VIII(b)".

Yeah, okay, thanks for totally throwing a wrench into my theories. *cries tears of butter*

[hypehat]

3. Fire (Seeing as extensive tape research hasn't turned up a single other piece of music that lies under the banner 'The Elements', this is telling. No-one's been able to solve 'The Elements', from the garbled BW interviews and Frank Holmes' drawing).

True but there was a "Water" chant tracked at some point during the sessions.  Hard for me to imagine that was for anything other than "The Elements".

That's obviously right. But it's also apparently not logged as such on tape boxes - In the Linett interviews recently he said that Fire was the only track labelled the elements.... Hard to suss.

I like my mix too, as it holds up in the cold light of sobriety, but there's so much else you'd want on there. You can see Brian's dilemma - You're throwing away hours upon hours of fantastic material, like Look, Holidays, all the H&V part two chants, Dada/Cool Cool Water, the Water Chant, all the bag of tricks things, Barnyard (although I'd probably stick that with Great Shape), and funny stuff like I Wanna Be Around/Workshop. And that's just what made it onto BWPS.
We tend to see the Harpsichord version of Wonderful as 'canon', but he re-recorded it twice! We still don't know what finished sequences of Vegetables would have entailed, or Child, and so on.

Sorry, just getting excited for the box. 12 days! 

[buddhahat]

Prayer/Good Vibrations      
Do You Dig Worms?   
Wonderful       
Vega-Tables    
Cabin Essence             
Heroes And Villains      
Child is Father of the Man   
The Old Master Painter   
Wind Chimes      
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow   
Surf's Up      

Definitely down with your openers and closers on each side - specifically Our Prayer into GV at the start. I have a hunch this was the plan, at least at one point. GV into OP just sounds too good to not be designed that way, imo. Carl's breathy "I ..." at the start of GV just sounds like a natural extension of the prayer.

[UK_Surf]

Welcome! Stick around, these are exciting times  

Let's see.

We have assurances from those at the time that despite the gargantuan task of sequencing this monster, it was to be twelve tracks with no crossfades, no suites, and essentially not BWPS.

Prayer was to just be an intro, not a standalone track. But, nevertheless, finished.

Look & Holidays were left in the can early in the game, which is either a sign that they were finished instrumentals or not to be used. Given brian's lack of enthusiasm for it since, we can knock off He Gives Speeches. Carl's Tune X was 99% unlikely to turn up. Dada is also unlikely, as it was the last SMiLE session, done way after work on a full album was considered - a large portion of '67 was given to H&V and Vege-tables sessions for a single. But other people like it....

Good Vibrations would be on there.

The tracklisting sent to Capitol is another consideration - these songs are definite, as far as we know. On some of the threads round here, there is a lot of deliberation on this, though. For instance, Barnyard isn't on it. But Great Shape is.

Ok, so my liquored guess is....

Side 1
1. Heroes & Villains (Incorporating Prayer at the start, then just Brian's March '67 Single Edit. It's the only edit we have)
2. I'm In Great Shape (Just the 30 seconds - I don't think it was due for more than that. If you were feeling fresh, it could segue into Barnyard like he does on the Humble Harv demo)
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Wind Chimes
5. The Old Master Painter (Why this is on the 12 tracklist, I don't know)
6. Cabinessence.

Side 2.
1. Good Vibrations
2. Vega-tables
3. Fire (Seeing as extensive tape research hasn't turned up a single other piece of music that lies under the banner 'The Elements', this is telling. No-one's been able to solve 'The Elements', from the garbled BW interviews and Frank Holmes' drawing).
4. Wonderful
5. Child Is The Father of The Man (No ideas as to the edit on this - the fact an unbooted acetate is used on the box in lieu of BW's Nov '66 mix is intriguing. It might well be definitive).
6. Surf's Up.


Howzat?

Really good man - that's an ace line-up.  Bold in the material it leaves out, and the sequence of the material it includes really follows the historical logic of the pop album, and all its pressures.

Like the Smile Shop founders, I think that historical evidence suggests that Smile would have been a pop album, not a cycle with 'link tracks' and all that...but maybe one or two interludes or intros.

BWPS was a way of getting everything to work live, and it's brilliant, because it did work live, and gave us (and probably more imporantly, gave the broader listening public) TSS, essentially. But the 'roll your own' ethos can help give us a glimpse of 'historical smile'.

Can't wait. Great sequence!

[Ram4]

We have assurances from those at the time that despite the gargantuan task of sequencing this monster, it was to be twelve tracks with no crossfades, no suites, and essentially not BWPS.

Side 1
1. Heroes & Villains (Incorporating Prayer at the start, then just Brian's March '67 Single Edit. It's the only edit we have)
2. I'm In Great Shape (Just the 30 seconds - I don't think it was due for more than that. If you were feeling fresh, it could segue into Barnyard like he does on the Humble Harv demo)
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Wind Chimes
5. The Old Master Painter (Why this is on the 12 tracklist, I don't know)
6. Cabinessence.

Side 2.
1. Good Vibrations
2. Vega-tables
3. Fire (Seeing as extensive tape research hasn't turned up a single other piece of music that lies under the banner 'The Elements', this is telling. No-one's been able to solve 'The Elements', from the garbled BW interviews and Frank Holmes' drawing).
4. Wonderful
5. Child Is The Father of The Man (No ideas as to the edit on this - the fact an unbooted acetate is used on the box in lieu of BW's Nov '66 mix is intriguing. It might well be definitive).
6. Surf's Up.


Howzat?

I think you are right on point.  You have the typical (North American market) 12 track album (with Prayer being an uncredited track, though it could easily have been #13).  I like your running order overall too.  Nice job.  I could even see Workshop being an intro to Vega-Tables on here, even if it was faded in for no more than 20 seconds.  By the way, it was interesting to hear on the Linett interview where they talked about how double albums in rock weren't around yet, but then it was pointed out that the debut album by the Mothers of Invention was a double in 1966.  I wonder if Brian knew about that album at the time (The Mothers were in the LA area) and if he ever considered having SMiLE as a double album which would allow him the freedom to do what he wanted? 

[bossaroo]

Child Is Father Of The Man (Starting with "the Vega-Tables" part, then Vibes, Then Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Ending Piano)

what is the VegaTables part of Child?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

1. Heroes and Villains (with Prayer)
2. I'm in Great Shape (with Barnyard)
3. Do You Like Worms?
4. The Old Master Painter
5. Cabinessence
6. Good Vibrations

7. Wonderful
8. Child is Father of the Man (with lyrics)
9. Vega-Tables
10. Wind Chimes
11. The Elements (with Mrs. O'Leary's Cow and 3 others we don't know yet)
12. Surf's Up

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Child Is Father Of The Man (Starting with "the Vega-Tables" part, then Vibes, Then Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Ending Piano)

what is the VegaTables part of Child?

The Piano and Vox Solo "Child----------- Father Of The Man"

[rogerlancelot]

Child Is Father Of The Man (Starting with "the Vega-Tables" part, then Vibes, Then Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Ending Piano)

what is the VegaTables part of Child?

SOT Unsurpassed #16 version.

[bossaroo]

oh i love that. 

[Dunderhead]

I don't think Do You Like Worms wold have been on the album once Brian "borrowed" the bicycle rider section. From the first time I heard BWPS, it seemed kind of silly to me, given all the great stuff that was recorded, that there were two songs, one right after the other, with the same chorus.

[runnersdialzero]

From the first time I heard BWPS, it seemed kind of silly to me, given all the great stuff that was recorded, that there were two songs, one right after the other, with the same chorus.

Kinda the same chorus, but kinda not, too. I do think there were to be some themes shared throughout the record, albeit not necessarily the same approach as on BWPS.

[armona]

(Prayer)
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape (including barnyard)
The Old Master Painter
Cabinessence
Wonderful

Good Vibrations
Vegetables
Wind Chimes
The Elements
Child Is Father Of the Man
Surf's Up

[runnersdialzero]

"Our Prayer" could've easily become a "track" even though it wasn't in Brian's mind during that particular time on that particular day. What a flaky n00b.

Mayhaps?

[hypehat]

Mayhaps indeed. But we just dunno outside of that. It's not on the 12 track list..... But I can't imagine him ditching it. *brain shuts down*

[Aegir]

Everyone puts "Surf's Up" at the end but I bet if it wasn't the last track on an actually-released album no one would see it as a closer.

[doinnothin]

I've been fiddling with a version that closes out with a

- Child is Father of the Man
- Surf's Up
- Friday Night/Workshop
- Vegetables

Seems weird to end something called SMiLE with something as cosmic at Surf's Up. Vegetables definitely leaves you with a SMiLE and closes the whole album with "I know that you'll feel better when you send us in your letter and tell us the name of your, your favorite vegetable", which seems appropriate.

[runnersdialzero]

Everyone puts "Surf's Up" at the end but I bet if it wasn't the last track on an actually-released album no one would see it as a closer.

Wasn't it said somewhere or other that "Surf's Up" was either planned or talked about as a possible final track? Pre-71, I mean. Nothing else really works as a closer imo. "Good Vibrations" worked well in a concert setting and even on BWPS to an extent, but it definitely doesn't feel like a "proper" ending.

[rab2591]

It's a shame that after all the months Van Dyke was with Brian, they never recall discussing tracklisting - or they won't say as much.

Then again, Brian didn't consult with Tony Asher about tracklisting, so maybe it's not all that odd.

[Chris Brown]

It's a shame that after all the months Van Dyke was with Brian, they never recall discussing tracklisting - or they won't say as much.

Then again, Brian didn't consult with Tony Asher about tracklisting, so maybe it's not all that odd.

My guess is that it wasn't something that Brian really thought about at the time - sequencing was typically one of the last things to be done before an album was released.  He had to get all the recording finished first, and obviously that never happened. 

I'm sure Brian knew that he'd have to open both sides with hit singles ("Good Vibrations" and "Heroes"), and I'm guessing he knew which one was going to follow "Our Prayer".  And as others have said, I believe he planned on closing it with "Surf's Up," although for the life of me I can't remember what contemporary source (if any) that idea came from.  As for the rest, I doubt it was given much thought - he was having enough of an issue just trying to sequence sections within the songs themselves, let alone the album as a whole.

[Cam Mott]

I don't think Do You Like Worms wold have been on the album once Brian "borrowed" the bicycle rider section. From the first time I heard BWPS, it seemed kind of silly to me, given all the great stuff that was recorded, that there were two songs, one right after the other, with the same chorus.

I don't think he did borrow it out of DYLW but instead just referenced it along with references to other album songs for some sort album reference comp maybe for the B side of the H&V single.

[Bicyclerider]

I think you are right on point.  You have the typical (North American market) 12 track album (with Prayer being an uncredited track, though it could easily have been #13).  I like your running order overall too.  Nice job.  I could even see Workshop being an intro to Vega-Tables on here, even if it was faded in for no more than 20 seconds.  By the way, it was interesting to hear on the Linett interview where they talked about how double albums in rock weren't around yet, but then it was pointed out that the debut album by the Mothers of Invention was a double in 1966.  I wonder if Brian knew about that album at the time (The Mothers were in the LA area) and if he ever considered having SMiLE as a double album which would allow him the freedom to do what he wanted? 

Brian definitely knew about the album - David anderle was involved with the Mothers at Verve and is thanked on the sleeve, so if he hadn't heard about it before, once David got involved, he would have.

[Chris Brown]

I think you are right on point.  You have the typical (North American market) 12 track album (with Prayer being an uncredited track, though it could easily have been #13).  I like your running order overall too.  Nice job.  I could even see Workshop being an intro to Vega-Tables on here, even if it was faded in for no more than 20 seconds.  By the way, it was interesting to hear on the Linett interview where they talked about how double albums in rock weren't around yet, but then it was pointed out that the debut album by the Mothers of Invention was a double in 1966.  I wonder if Brian knew about that album at the time (The Mothers were in the LA area) and if he ever considered having SMiLE as a double album which would allow him the freedom to do what he wanted? 

Brian definitely knew about the album - David anderle was involved with the Mothers at Verve and is thanked on the sleeve, so if he hadn't heard about it before, once David got involved, he would have.

I don't recall where I read it (I feel like it was AGD who said it) but somewhere I've read that Brian hated Zappa's music - not sure what he heard or when, though.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Brian decides to let Mike alter the lyrics to give Smile more commercial appeal

1. Our Cars
2. Hondas and Surfers
3. Do You Dig Surfing
4. Girl Essence
5. Wonder Girls
6. I am the father of Brian
7. Surf's Up

8. Vegatables (its good for you)
9. Wind Surfing
10. Mrs O'Leary's Car
11. Water Chant
12. I Love to Say Mike Love
13. Good Vibrations (Brian did the Good Good Good Good Vibrations, but I wrote the I'm pickin up Good Vibrations. And the reason I came up with that part, first was cuz its the bass line. But also the track was so wierd that our fans, the listening audience would freak out when they hear this, so I said oh my goodness. So I wrote it from boy girl perspective)
14. Rev Your Rev Your Engine to Come

[Aegir]

One time I had a dream that I was hanging out with Brian and we were watching TV and Mike & Bruce were on TV debuting a version of "Heroes and Villains" that Mike had re-written to be a song about a drag race and Brian got really sad and then he wasn't fun to hang out with anymore.