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How do YOU think Smile would have went?
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Topic: How do YOU think Smile would have went? (Read 34592 times)
hypehat
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #125 on:
December 03, 2011, 05:14:47 AM »
Quote from: Chris Moise on December 02, 2011, 09:41:03 AM
Sigh. I'll take Cam Mott’s years of researching the Capitol Art Department – including grilling the SMILE art director - over what "you can picture"..
Since Brian produced the SMILE sessions we can be certain the handwritten list, regardless who wrote it, came from him. All artwork had to be approved by the LP producer before being printed - this was Capitol policy as confirmed to Cam Mott by SMILE art director George Osaka. The fact a list was submitted to and received by Capitol and work was underway (466,000 front slicks, book design/photos, rear mock up) is proof Brian approved the handwritten list and cover design with track list and "see label for order." No way a written track list is accepted, designed & revised if it came from someone other than Brian. Unlikely Capitol authorizes printing 466,000 cover slicks for an job with incomplete art.
Do people think someone went behind Brian's back and turned in a track list to Capitol without his knowledge? How could they get away with this? Imagine George Harrison going to EMI with "here is the track list for the new LP, no need to contact Mr. Martin, go ahead and print the LP sleeves." What was Brian going to do when he received the LP jacket and says "where the f*ck is Holidays?"
That's fair enough. I wasn't thinking very straight yesterday, anyway, but you can't deny the list has that haphazard nature of being tossed off with little rhyme or reason. I was merely thinking how that could have happened, with a hangover
. Capitol were on him like crazy for a tracklist, from what I understand, and Brian had no idea - he could have just listed 12 things they recorded in no particular order. We don't know, of course. But we do love to speculate.
I mean, as we've stated, as a potential tracklisting it's terrible. And if we're talking about it in a similar sense to the Wild Honey/Pet Sounds potential tracklistings, it's disingenous for someone like krabklaw (who baffles me most in this thread) to go, 'well it's the tracklist! It must be the tracklist!' when they specifically went to pains to say on the
mockup
, 'this is not the tracklist'.
I don't know. It's all speculation.
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All roads lead to Kokomo. Exhaustive research in time travel has conclusively proven that there is no alternate universe WITHOUT Kokomo. It would've happened regardless.
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Quote from: Al Jardine
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Summertime Blooz
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #126 on:
December 03, 2011, 03:51:31 PM »
I don't think the Dec 66 list etched the running order for Smile in stone and I never said that. I simply believe it's not as random a list as some other people do. For an example, if someone was going to rattle off the songs for a list, why would anyone believe that the very first song to spring to mind would be Do You Like Worms? It was never even finished for gosh sakes. And then the second thing that person remembers is Wind Chimes? I would think the first track to come to mind would be H&V which they had already put lots of work into and was likely considered the linchpin of the project. Maybe Good Vibrations, which earlier that year had been their biggest hit ever, would be the first or second song one might remember- but would it likely be the fifth? To ME the "see label for correct playing order" text simply meant that Brian Wilson reserved the right to make some changes since Smile was still a work-in-progress. I don't think those six words completely invalidate the order of the songs on that list as one of the most interesting reference points in the Smile story.
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hypehat
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #127 on:
December 03, 2011, 04:36:14 PM »
Quote
they specifically went to pains to say on the mockup, 'this is not the tracklist'.
So stop putting stock in it then. You say Brian reserved the right to change it. And he did. It's called Smiley Smile, if you want to be like that.
There are far too many variables. We may have our opinions, mine being that the list is merely Brian, or Carl and Diane pestering Brian (Moise and Cam's point leads me to this one really), reeling off twelve tunes they've recorded without much thought. Capitol are bothering them. Say something . But that tracklist leaves so much unanswered. And man, that's just what I think!
You can't say 'Well, gee, after listening to this stuff for god knows how long I wouldn't have listed DYLW first!' and expect me to take that any more seriously than me typing nonsense upthread in quotation marks.
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Quote from: ontor pertawst on October 06, 2012, 06:05:25 PM
All roads lead to Kokomo. Exhaustive research in time travel has conclusively proven that there is no alternate universe WITHOUT Kokomo. It would've happened regardless.
Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on May 15, 2012, 12:33:42 PM
What is this "life" thing you speak of ?
Quote from: Al Jardine
Syncopate it? In front of all these people?!
Zach95
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #128 on:
December 03, 2011, 08:49:26 PM »
Quote from: krabklaw on December 01, 2011, 07:49:22 PM
Quote from: Chris Brown on December 01, 2011, 07:00:50 PM
Quote from: krabklaw on December 01, 2011, 11:28:02 AM
Quote from: hypehat on December 01, 2011, 11:01:39 AM
*angry post about how that list wasn't written by Brian, how he's recording the END of a song when he says that, and then used it as the fade of potentially the lead single of the album not long afterwards, and how ending your avantgarde spiritual pop statement with You Are My Sunshine would be the uncoolest thing imaginable. all to say you're really wrong*
Are there other instances of Brian in the studio referring to the final section of a song as "the big finale"? I don't listen to all that stuff. As for the '66 tracklist, it doesn't seem logical to me that the song titles were just drawn out of a hat. To me, that is "strong evidence". I don't make any claims as to knowing what is right or "really wrong" as far as what Smile's final form would have been in 67. If some fans like to have their own fan mixes end with Surf's Up or You're Welcome I'm cool with that.
The biggest flaw in your argument is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the tracklist was also a preliminary track
sequencing
. The sleeves that were printed up based on the tracklist specifically said "see label for correct playing order." No, the titles weren't randomly drawn, but it's a pretty big leap of logic to suggest that it was anything more than a list of the most completed songs intended to get the record company off Brian's back.
I offhand can't think of one album in my collection where the tracklist printed on the back of the album sleeve bears no resemblance whatsoever to the actual running order of the tracks. There probably are some albums like that, but it doesn't seem logical TO ME that the "see label for correct playing order" line completely invalidates the order of the list that was given to Capitol as some others think it does.
Let It Bleed...same situation where the tracks stated on the back of the album are in no way shape or form even close to the running order.
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Micha
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #129 on:
December 04, 2011, 04:51:49 AM »
To Curtis Leon.
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
Could you imagine the Cornucopia demo closing a finished SMiLE?
No, I couldn't. My last pre-TSS mix did end with Vega-Tables, but that V-T mix ended with the ballad insert followed by the slow Do A Lot as a fade out. That worked pretty well for me.
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
Okay, for one, Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent after the Party album was released - The Little Girl I Once Knew was the intended single (and it didn't make the Top Ten, which led to Barbara Ann's release in the first place).
See Been Too Long's posting:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11296.msg233081.html#msg233081
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.
I didn't ignore it, it wasn't my point. My point was that a previously released single could very well end side 2. Your claim was that it never happened so no single could ever have been the last track of SMiLE. That claim is - IMHO - wrong.
If you claim that GV might have closed side one because a single closed side one of Today, Summer Nights, and Pet Sounds, I say: That could be possible.
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
Caroline No was an exception in the fact that A. Wasn't a top ten single and B. Wasn't released in the Beach Boys name originally
A. and B. are true. But C. - "Caroline, No" was highlighted on the front cover
alongside
"Sloop John B." inspite of A. and B. - is also true. Seemingly A. and B. weren't that important for Capitol.
«
Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 05:17:40 AM by Micha
»
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Micha
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #130 on:
December 04, 2011, 04:54:47 AM »
To soniclovenoize.
Quote from: soniclovenoize on December 02, 2011, 02:40:58 PM
2) Side openers
As common practice at the time for pop albums, the lead single would open the album--as Wouldn't It be Nice did on Pet Sounds.
But WIBN
was not
the lead single of Pet Sounds - Sloop John B. was.
Sloop John B. : released March 21 1966
Pet Sounds: released May 16 1966
Wouldn't It be Nice: released July 18 1966
So, had Pet Sounds never been released after the SJB single, and not knowing WIBN would
later
be a single, and would you try to construct a line up for Pet Sounds using your logic you would end up with SJB as first track.
In fact the last two BB albums before Pet Sounds did
not
start with a single.
I'm afraid you are trying to prove your assumption by picking the facts that fit your theory and neglecting the facts that do not. IMHO.
Quote from: soniclovenoize on December 02, 2011, 06:11:13 PM
My Authentic mix I made years ago (pre-BWPS) put I Wanna Be Around in there, in between Mrs. O'Leary's Cow and Water Chant (rebuilding after the fire burned everything down) but I alreday knew that a tape box labeled that as associated with I'm In Great Shape. So I knew someday when IIGS leaked, I'd have to take it out of Elements and make it a part of it somehow... When that mp3 leaked, I imagined the tape explosion at the end being a hard edit into IWBA, and I was waiting for a lossless source of that. Then much to my surprise, BWPS came out, and that was exactly the construction of I'm In Great Shape!
Can I call it or what?!
My pre-BWPS mixes ended with Good Vibrations, so I can feel your surprise.
Quote from: soniclovenoize on December 02, 2011, 02:40:58 PM
Now, since we know that Good Vibrations was not originally part of the album, but capitol pushed it on
Do we
know
that, really? I cannot remember reading that outside of message boards. But I can easily be convinced if you tell me the source for that claim.
For instance, I'm convinced that my not liking Surf's Up as a closer does not prove at all that a 1967 SMiLE wouldn't have ended with Surf's Up. But at least the opposite can't be proven either.
«
Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 05:21:16 AM by Micha
»
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drbeachboy
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #131 on:
December 04, 2011, 06:28:19 AM »
Was Good Vibrations supposed to be on Smle? Most likely, yes. Like Sloop John B., for years people thought Capitol forced it onto Pet Sounds. Now, we know that was never the case. Brian understands the recording business and what to expect from the suits making the decisions. I'm sure Brian knew from the outset, that GV would be a track on Smile, whether as an artistic statement or simply as a business one.
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The Brianista Prayer
Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen. ---hypehat
Curtis Leon
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #132 on:
December 04, 2011, 03:15:10 PM »
Quote from: Been Too Long on December 02, 2011, 10:50:28 AM
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
Okay, for one,
Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent
after the Party album was released - The Little Girl I Once Knew was the intended single (and it didn't make the Top Ten, which led to Barbara Ann's release in the first place). For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.
No, it seems that both the Barbara Ann single and Sloop John B on Pet Sounds were Brian Wilson's ideas, even over the discouragement of others.
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=f03a4bae0d7f8dafb7480a289915c56a&topic=4725.0
Just another myth that has been passed around for years.
My mistake - I tried to make that post as myth free as possible, but it seems one slipped through the cracks out from under me. (I would like to point out that I never said Sloop John B on Pet Sounds wasn't Brian's idea, though.)
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Curtis Leon
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #133 on:
December 04, 2011, 03:32:37 PM »
Quote from: Micha on December 04, 2011, 04:51:49 AM
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.
I didn't ignore it, it wasn't my point. My point was that a previously released single could very well end side 2. Your claim was that it never happened so no single could ever have been the last track of SMiLE. That claim is - IMHO - wrong.
If you claim that GV might have closed side one because a single closed side one of Today, Summer Nights, and Pet Sounds, I say: That could be possible.
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
Caroline No was an exception in the fact that A. Wasn't a top ten single and B. Wasn't released in the Beach Boys name originally
A. and B. are true. But C. - "Caroline, No" was highlighted on the front cover
alongside
"Sloop John B." inspite of A. and B. - is also true. Seemingly A. and B. weren't that important for Capitol.
No, my claim was that assuming a Top Ten hit could violate the established rules of American track listing is unlikely, if not near impossible. Caroline, No gets to be an exception simply because it was released after the finished track list was decided, and again, wasn't a hit. Sloop John B didn't get that special treatment. Again, Good Vibrations was the ONLY single released in the SMiLE era.
If we would go back to Smiley Smile for a moment, Good Vibrations starts side 2 on that, fitting with the established tradition of putting the single on the beginning or the middle of an album.
Was there a small chance it could've closed a '67 SMiLE? Sure. There's a small chance of ANYTHING when dealing with SMiLE.
Is it so unlikely that treating it as something that had a real, likely chance of happening doesn't work when dealing with the precedent and record label politics of that time period? Again, yes.
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soniclovenoize
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #134 on:
December 04, 2011, 03:42:08 PM »
To micha
Quote from: Micha on December 04, 2011, 04:54:47 AM
But WIBN
was not
the lead single of Pet Sounds - Sloop John B. was.
Yeah, I suppose that's true, if you pretend that SJB was intended for Pet Sounds instead of as a stand alone single, and pretend that it was recorded along with the album sessions.
Looks like what you and I are counting as "lead single" is very different. I wouldn't count it as the lead single at all. But I'm really uninterested in debating it with you in a thread called "How do YOU think SMiLE would have went", clearly meant to be subjective, especially if you're going to uses loaded words like a douchebag.
Quote
I'm afraid you are trying to prove your assumption by picking the facts that fit your theory and neglecting the facts that do not. IMHO.
I'm afraid you are putting words into my mouth and arguing semantics, but if that's how you get your jollies, so be it.
Quote
Do we
know
that, really? I cannot remember reading that outside of message boards. But I can easily be convinced if you tell me the source for that claim.
Prove me wrong.
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Micha
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #135 on:
December 04, 2011, 09:32:04 PM »
Quote from: soniclovenoize on December 04, 2011, 03:42:08 PM
Looks like what you and I are counting as "lead single" is very different. I wouldn't count it as the lead single at all.
All right then, so please define what exactly is a lead single. Maybe I do get something wrong.
Quote from: soniclovenoize on December 04, 2011, 03:42:08 PM
especially if you're going to uses loaded words
I'm sorry, but English is not my first language - what do you mean with loaded words? Honestly! Did I use words that seemed to be insulting?
Quote from: soniclovenoize on December 04, 2011, 03:42:08 PM
Quote
Do we
know
that, really? I cannot remember reading that outside of message boards. But I can easily be convinced if you tell me the source for that claim.
Prove me wrong.
Well, of course it would take too long to put together all parts of the universe where there is no sign of Capitol forcing GV onto SMiLE against Brian's wishes. And besides, I asked for evidence first.
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Micha
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #136 on:
December 04, 2011, 09:49:46 PM »
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 04, 2011, 03:32:37 PM
Quote from: Micha on December 04, 2011, 04:51:49 AM
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.
I didn't ignore it, it wasn't my point. My point was that a previously released single could very well end side 2. Your claim was that it never happened so no single could ever have been the last track of SMiLE. That claim is - IMHO - wrong.
If you claim that GV might have closed side one because a single closed side one of Today, Summer Nights, and Pet Sounds, I say: That could be possible.
Quote from: Curtis Leon on December 02, 2011, 07:56:46 AM
Caroline No was an exception in the fact that A. Wasn't a top ten single and B. Wasn't released in the Beach Boys name originally
A. and B. are true. But C. - "Caroline, No" was highlighted on the front cover
alongside
"Sloop John B." inspite of A. and B. - is also true. Seemingly A. and B. weren't that important for Capitol.
No, my claim was that assuming a Top Ten hit could violate the established rules of American track listing is unlikely, if not near impossible. Caroline, No gets to be an exception simply because it was released after the finished track list was decided, and again, wasn't a hit. Sloop John B didn't get that special treatment. Again, Good Vibrations was the ONLY single released in the SMiLE era.
If we would go back to Smiley Smile for a moment, Good Vibrations starts side 2 on that, fitting with the established tradition of putting the single on the beginning or the middle of an album.
Was there a small chance it could've closed a '67 SMiLE? Sure. There's a small chance of ANYTHING when dealing with SMiLE.
Is it so unlikely that treating it as something that had a real, likely chance of happening doesn't work when dealing with the precedent and record label politics of that time period? Again, yes.
I agree with everything you say in this post. (I'm not sure though if I really get the last sentence right - it is a bit complicated, sounds right at least.) My point was that even though singles were placed at the beginning or in the middle of albums more often than at the end, there were precedents and we can't rule it out that GV could have closed SMiLE - I can't rule out that Surf's Up may have been the closer.
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DonnyL
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #137 on:
December 04, 2011, 10:24:30 PM »
I:
1 - Prayer / Heroes & Villains (extended)
2 - Vega-Tables
3 - Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
4 - He Gives Speeches
5 - Cabinessence
II:
1 - Good Vibrations
2 - Do You Like Worms
3 - Wind Chimes
4 - Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine
5 - Wonderful
6 - Surf's Up
7 - Child is Father of the Man
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Chris Moise
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #138 on:
December 08, 2011, 02:05:37 AM »
Quote from: hypehat on December 03, 2011, 05:14:47 AM
...Capitol were on him like crazy for a tracklist, from what I understand, and Brian had no idea - he could have just listed 12 things they recorded in no particular order.
Disagree re 'had no idea' - Brian didn't work outside the titles on the list until the announcement of Smile’s scrapping some 5 months later. He also didn't work outside the list to a significant degree in preceding 3 months. Of course, I realize we have little idea what comprised IIGS, etc..
So, we have a handwritten track list, a cover mock up with same track list, and VDP affirming said track list...seems clear these were the titles intended for the LP. I'm not positing it's
the truth
but I don't see how primary source evidence is dismissed outright. The 12-trackers here are treated not unlike Apollo 11 deniers at NASA. I can dig that but it pains me to see SMILE go down in history as this huge jumbled ball of confusion - this shortchanges all that Brian accomplished as a troubled 24 year old buckling under the weight of unrelenting pressure and unreasonable expectations.
I mean your average SMILE article gives the impression he recorded with no idea what for. Why is that? I think in part it’s lazy journalism but then you have Mark Linnet on Icon Fetch saying “it didn’t come out is because all we had were a bunch of bits and pieces” or “before 2004 it was just a jumble of sessions.” It's like painting Ted Williams as a .220 hitter that swung for the fences every at bat. I’ve rambled enough and should celebrate the moment. Sigh, I guess it’s part and parcel of being a devote - mind you a devotee with 1/20th the post count as you all
«
Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 02:16:57 AM by Chris Moise
»
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Cam Mott
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #139 on:
December 08, 2011, 03:29:09 AM »
I mostly agree Chris but I took it that Mark was saying it was a jumble to him/us today rather than he was opining it was a jumble to Brian back then.
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Micha
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #140 on:
December 08, 2011, 09:50:24 AM »
Quote from: Chris Moise on December 08, 2011, 02:05:37 AM
So, we have a handwritten track list, a cover mock up with same track list, and VDP affirming said track list...seems clear these were the titles intended for the LP. I'm not positing it's
the truth
but I don't see how primary source evidence is dismissed outright. The 12-trackers here are treated not unlike Apollo 11 deniers at NASA.
I don't have
the truth
either, but as far as I know (and if I'm wrong I'd be happy to stand corrected) VDP only said it would have been 12 tracks, but not that it would have been exactly those 12 songs on that list - which Brian claims to have never seen (which may be the truth or a lack of memory).
If the list was the final one, the back covers would have been printed. But the fact they weren't printed indicates to me that it was made just to have a back cover designed with the option to last minute changes.
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Cam Mott
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #141 on:
December 08, 2011, 01:40:40 PM »
Quote from: Micha on December 08, 2011, 09:50:24 AM
Quote from: Chris Moise on December 08, 2011, 02:05:37 AM
So, we have a handwritten track list, a cover mock up with same track list, and VDP affirming said track list...seems clear these were the titles intended for the LP. I'm not positing it's
the truth
but I don't see how primary source evidence is dismissed outright. The 12-trackers here are treated not unlike Apollo 11 deniers at NASA.
I don't have
the truth
either, but as far as I know (and if I'm wrong I'd be happy to stand corrected) VDP only said it would have been 12 tracks, but not that it would have been exactly those 12 songs on that list - which Brian claims to have never seen (which may be the truth or a lack of memory).
If the list was the final one, the back covers would have been printed. But the fact they weren't printed indicates to me that it was made just to have a back cover designed with the option to last minute changes.
I don't think it is rock solid that the covers were never printed, in fact I think it is extremely more likely they were rather than they weren't. As I understand it what was in the warehouse was described as covers, what is described on this board as "slicks" were called "liners" by Capitol's 1966-67 production department. If it was boxes of liners ["slicks"] only in the warehouse they would not be called covers by the production department. Covers had a front liner and a back liner and a cardboard jacket.
Subcontractors produced the covers for Capitol, in the case of the SMiLE cover the subs were BertCo in LA and Queens Litho in NY. BertCo says it did its cover fabrication in house, they printed the litho front liners and a plain black on white bond paper back liner and they applied both to the jackets and shipped them to Capitol. The back liners were applied in a different way than they were for most labels. Queens Litho got a PO for covers from Capitol, Queens printed the litho front liners and shipped them to a subcontractor who printed the black on white bond paper back liner and then assembled Queens front liner and the bond paper back liner they printed to their cardboard jacket and shipped the finished covers to Capitol's Scranton warehouse. So I think it is almost a certainty that what was in Capitol's warehouse were finished covers and not boxes of litho front liners. Also Mike said in June that the covers for SMiLE had been done since April.
That still leaves the tracklist question of what tracklist was on those supposed finished covers. I tried to find out but the records seem to not be there anymore. If Queens Litho hadn't had a fire in the 80s or so, we might have had more info. Their old card catalog had info for other BB albums but not SMiLE. However in March Derek Taylor describes both the mock up of the album and the titles on the mock up and the upcoming album and there is no variation from the list titles and it is described as an album of 12 songs. I think this might be another one of those things we try to make complicated or vague that was really more straightforward.
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Bicyclerider
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #142 on:
December 08, 2011, 03:04:35 PM »
Quote from: Micha on December 08, 2011, 09:50:24 AM
Quote from: Chris Moise on December 08, 2011, 02:05:37 AM
So, we have a handwritten track list, a cover mock up with same track list, and VDP affirming said track list...seems clear these were the titles intended for the LP. I'm not positing it's
the truth
but I don't see how primary source evidence is dismissed outright. The 12-trackers here are treated not unlike Apollo 11 deniers at NASA.
I don't have
the truth
either, but as far as I know (and if I'm wrong I'd be happy to stand corrected) VDP only said it would have been 12 tracks, but not that it would have been exactly those 12 songs on that list - which Brian claims to have never seen (which may be the truth or a lack of memory).
If the list was the final one, the back covers would have been printed. But the fact they weren't printed indicates to me that it was made just to have a back cover designed with the option to last minute changes.
Reading through all the media/press atricles/Brian interviews about the upcoming Smile album in LLVS, one thing stays the same from October to April - that it was going to be a "12 track album." There are 12 tracks listed on the back slick version we have, and Brian only recorded music for those 12 tracks after the titles were submitted (until Dada in May after Derek Taylor's pronouncement of Smile's death) (OK, he did record You're Welcome in december after the track list was submitted. I have a theory about that, but it's neither here nor there).
the next question is how did Brian choose the songs for the list and how did he choose the order of the songs. One possible way is that he listed the songs he had most recently worked on first, then tracked back to complete the list. Looking at the sessions that method doesn't hold up.
Another way he might have chosen the list was to start with the songs that were completely or nearly completely written and the tracks recorded - i.e. start with the songs nearest completion, and list the songs not started yet or still being worked on at the end. This fits the list better, but not perfectly. Worms, Wind chimes, Surf's Up (only half complete), Cabin Essence, Wonderful tracking were done. Heroes doesn't really fit in third place but perhaps Brian thought it had been finished in terms of writing at this point - which of course we know was not to be the case. The next songs, Shape obviously unfinished, Child the track mostly finished but the verse and bridge lyrics/melody unfinished, Elements not done, Vega-tables not started (as the cornucopia version that was to part of the Elements is no longer usable as its' own track). The Old Master Painter appears to be mostly finished, but perhaps Brian already knew he was going to take the OMP fade for Heroes and so it would become incomplete and in need of further recording/writing. The line through OMP may also indicate he wasn't certain about including the song at all, but needed a 12th track and decided he could do something more with it later to make it an acceptable track on the album.
We mostly agree that as a final track order the list doesn't work very well. I certainly understand the argument that the fact Brian (or Diane or Carl talking to Brian) comes up with Worms first COULD indicate it was to come first - it came first to his mind - but don't we have handwritten track lists for Pet Sounds and Wild Honey? Were the first songs listed on those lists the first songs on the albums?
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Micha
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #143 on:
December 08, 2011, 10:33:07 PM »
I don't doubt at all that in whatever way Brian would have edited a master for SMiLE in 1967, the back cover would have listed 12 songs. But not necessarily the 12 songs on the list. Definitely most of those 12, maybe exactly those 12, but not necessarily.
My main point of concern is the crossed out brackets which indicates that the final lineup was still thought about and that this list was made especially in order to be able to design the back cover. As most of these tracks would have appeared on the record, for the final printing you wouldn't have to substitute more than two track titles at most, and you're done.
The booklet
was
printed, wasn't it? That, as we all know, states V-T as part of The Elements, so that would contradict the track list, as we all know. I'm sure that at least V-T would have been substituted. All MHO.
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Chris Moise
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #144 on:
December 09, 2011, 07:23:50 AM »
Quote from: Cam Mott on December 08, 2011, 01:40:40 PM
I don't think it is rock solid that the covers were never printed, in fact I think it is extremely more likely they were rather than they weren't.
As I understand it what was in the warehouse was described as covers, what is described on this board as "slicks" were called "liners" by Capitol's 1966-67 production department. If it was boxes of liners ["slicks"] only in the warehouse they would not be called covers by the production department. Covers had a front liner and a back liner and a cardboard jacket.
Subcontractors produced the covers for Capitol, in the case of the SMiLE cover the subs were BertCo in LA and Queens Litho in NY. BertCo says it did its cover fabrication in house, they printed the litho front liners and a plain black on white bond paper back liner and they applied both to the jackets and shipped them to Capitol. The back liners were applied in a different way than they were for most labels. Queens Litho got a PO for covers from Capitol, Queens printed the litho front liners and shipped them to a subcontractor who printed the black on white bond paper back liner and then assembled Queens front liner and the bond paper back liner they printed to their cardboard jacket and shipped the finished covers to Capitol's Scranton warehouse.
So I think it is almost a certainty that what was in Capitol's warehouse were finished covers and not boxes of litho front liners.
Well now, that is rather huge. Excellent research my man. I'm a bit surprised no one has commented....arguably game-changing information here.
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Cam Mott
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #145 on:
December 10, 2011, 03:04:22 PM »
Aw shucks, thanks.
Because the records don't seem to be there anymore, it is all still conjecture somewhat. BertCo did not keep their records from back then. Tens years ago, Queens Litho still had some records from back then but since I think I've heard that Queens Litho had sold so who knows what is left if anything now. Anyway, even then the records for the SMiLE album were among the records that were missing. Maybe something from them will turn up some how somewhere.
On the other hand, I think the record as known shows us already that the complete covers were fabricated and delivered to two Capitol warehouses. And the testimony about the covers already show they had a tracklist, and that tracklist had titles, it had 12 titles and none of the witnessed titles varied from the only known 12 track list. Tracks witnessed as on the SMiLE album were H&V, V-T, W, DYLW, SU, CE, WC, TE and that was in late March. So that leaves 4 tracks un-named.
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #146 on:
December 11, 2011, 07:48:54 AM »
I don't know, but the fact is, "Our Prayer" would have been right in the middle of the album.
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SamMcK
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #147 on:
December 11, 2011, 10:51:15 AM »
I once had a dream where the night before BWPS was going to be released in 2004 Mike Love sneaked into the Sunset Sound building and stole the mastertape of the album before it was to be distributed and replaced the tracklisting as revenge for not being involved in the project:
Mike Love Presents SMiLE:
Our Prayer
Summer in Paradise
Still Cruisin'
Kokomo
Looking Back With Love
The Little Old Lady from Pasadena
Monster Mash
Long, Tall Texan
Jingle Bell Rock
Santa's Goin' To Kokomo
Viggie
Rock 'n' Roll Country Bride/Surf's Up/Wrinkles (medley)
Brian Is Back
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #148 on:
December 11, 2011, 11:34:29 AM »
Quote from: MaccaBeatles on December 11, 2011, 10:51:15 AM
I once had a dream where the night before BWPS was going to be released in 2004 Mike Love sneaked into the Sunset Sound building and stole the mastertape of the album before it was to be distributed and replaced the tracklisting as revenge for not being involved in the project:
Mike Love Presents SMiLE:
Our Prayer
Summer in Paradise
Still Cruisin'
Kokomo
Looking Back With Love
The Little Old Lady from Pasadena
Monster Mash
Long, Tall Texan
Jingle Bell Rock
Santa's Goin' To Kokomo
Viggie
Rock 'n' Roll Country Bride/Surf's Up/Wrinkles (medley)
Brian Is Back
"Mike Love Presents Smile" sounds like it is going to sell a million units in January.
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
runnersdialzero
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Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went?
«
Reply #149 on:
December 11, 2011, 04:57:53 PM »
Quote from: MaccaBeatles on December 11, 2011, 10:51:15 AM
Rock 'n' Roll Country Bride/Surf's Up/Wrinkles (medley)
Yes, please.
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