SMiLE Sessions box set!

[The Heartical Don]

I just would like to mention that one of my favorite Beach Boys albums: the one that won me over was actually just 1/2 an album because it used to just sit on my record player with side 2 facing up.

It was the Beach Boys Today record and side 2 had some of Brian's pot songs on it. I'm not saying this to glorify drug use but to glorify those great songs and note that there was such usage involved with the writing of these songs.

I much prefer these songs to the Beatles' Help & Rubber Soul pot platters.

The SMiLE music was never written under the influence of LSD or anything like that. Brian said "gotta have a clear head" for recording--so the studio was off limits as well for that sort of thing as well.

That being said, SMiLE is suggestive of a state of mind comparable to dreaming. Van Dyke called it a "dream-escape."

Folks have always approached SMiLE on the level of something suggesting a symphony, an American one maybe Aaron Copeland's Billy The Kid or Charles Ives or Gershwin or something.

But what the authors of the piece were going for was along the lines of unconscious thought.

Hi Bill -

I can well live with your factual statements here. That marihuana was involved and that great songs saw the light of day at the same time - that's on record, I believe. The exact relationship between the two is open to interpretation. Perhaps the stuff acted merely as a sedative, steadied BW's nerves, and thus gave him the opportunity to work out those complex musical structures with peace of mind. Who knows? Other interpretations may be equally valid.
At any rate, your text is thankfully free of the 'tortured artist' mythmongering.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The SMiLE music was never written under the influence of LSD or anything like that. Brian said "gotta have a clear head" for recording--so the studio was off limits as well for that sort of thing as well.

According to Brian, the first point of order for himself and VDP in the creation of the Smile material was the purchase of some $3000 worth of Afghanistan's finest. VDP added Desbutols (speed) to the mix. This is well-documented. You were saying ?

[The Heartical Don]

The SMiLE music was never written under the influence of LSD or anything like that. Brian said "gotta have a clear head" for recording--so the studio was off limits as well for that sort of thing as well.

According to Brian, the first point of order for himself and VDP in the creation of the Smile material was the purchase of some $3000 worth of Afghanistan's finest. VDP added Desbutols (speed) to the mix. This is well-documented. You were saying ?

Well, this will be my last post on the drug issue (which has been dragging on far too long anyway). Was speed freely available then (over the counter, I mean)? I know from some well-respected citizens that amphetamines were very much en vogue in the sixties, not to get out of it, but to lose weight (apparently they quench your appetite). Also, my dad, who is a retired truck driver, relates stories about his younger days, when he and his colleages had to work insane hours on the German Autobahn. You could buy speed at every German gas station, the brand name was Halt Wach (Stay Awake). It doubled your normal attention time on the road (from 8 to 16 hrs straight); but the grave danger was that after your extra time, you suddenly and without announcement fell into deep sleep.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Desbutal (correct spelling, mea culpa) was sold over the counter: 5 mg Desoxyn (Methamphetamine Hydrochloride) and 30 mg Nembutal (Pentobarbital Sodium). As for LSD, when Brian took it, it was still legal in California (declared illegal October 6th, 1966).

[Wrightfan]

As for LSD, when Brian took it, it was still legal in California (declared illegal October 6th, 1966).

Right around the time of the sessions...

CONSPIRACY! 

[pixletwin]

As for LSD, when Brian took it, it was still legal in California (declared illegal October 6th, 1966).

Right around the time of the sessions...

CONSPIRACY! 

It was Derek Taylor at the behest of the Beatles lobbying against LSD! They feared Brian's musical palette being expanded beyond awesome! True story!

 

[Dunderhead]

If Brian hadn't experienced his pain, would we have gotten Friends?

This idea, that suffering and tragedy might be the ultimate moment of human existence has been at the heart of the work of many artists, from Nietzsche to Akira Kurosawa. Suffering is part of being human, without sorrow there can't be any joy.

If Brian never experienced any pain in his life I doubt he would have been motivated to make art. Sure you may imagine you're being a really sympathetic person when you say you'd spare him of his pain, but but sparing him of pain you're also sparing him of joy, you're sparing him of his humanity.

I'm really uneasy with the implications of this hair shirt, "no gain without pain" nonsense.

I agree that plenty of great art has perhaps had a painful genesis and that its creators have often gone through hell to produce something the rest of us can marvel at.

But you seem to be proposing that the gain is greater than the pain endured by the individual artist.

No-one wants to live in a world without great art.

But to take your premise to its logical conclusion maybe we should be torturing babies now in the hope that they'll produce something breathtaking and artistic before their 25th birthday.

Can we start the Sandbox poll over again?

You're being too scientific about it, it's not like there's some measurable trade off. Some people who suffer the most never make any art, some people who live relatively normal lives do.
What I am saying is that Brian's art is exactly the result of what happened to him, no more no less. And instead of pretending to be a humanitarian by white knighting for Brian on the internet, I'd rather accept everything that happened to him, good and bad.

I think I made my point well enough, although my words may be interpreted in such a way that factual errors can be deduced.

I'm not certain what your point is though. You'd let Brian smoke weed for Pet Sounds, but make him stop before SMiLE. Then you say the reason you'd not stop him from doing drugs on Pet Sounds is because he wasn't addicted to coke then. But he wasn't during SMiLE either, so I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make. Are you saying you'd stop Brian's drug use when it got "dangerous"?
At what point did that transformation occur? What if it had been somewhere in the middle of Good Vibrations sessions? Would you still stop him? Or would you let him have a couple more sessions?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I've changed my mind, as I tend to when people start frantically backpeddaling.

And instead of pretending to be a humanitarian by white knighting for Brian on the internet, I'd rather accept everything that happened to him, good and bad.

No, no, no, no, no - you didn't say that at all originally. Here are your exact words:

I'm happy that Brian's career happened in the way that it happened, and I wouldn't change it.

There's an ocean of difference between accepting what happened - good or bad - and actually being happy about it. You've expressed pleasure at someone else's pain and profound unhappiness. Not only that, were you given the change to reduce or eliminate Brian's suffering, you wouldn't. Now wriggle out of that one.  

Your real name isn't Loren Daro, by any chance ?

[letsmakeit31]

I've changed my mind, as I tend to when people start frantically backpeddaling.

And instead of pretending to be a humanitarian by white knighting for Brian on the internet, I'd rather accept everything that happened to him, good and bad.

No, no, no, no, no - you didn't say that at all originally. Here are your exact words:

I'm happy that Brian's career happened in the way that it happened, and I wouldn't change it.

There's an ocean of difference between accepting what happened - good or bad - and actually being happy about it. You've expressed pleasure at someone else's pain and profound unhappiness. Not only that, were you given the change to reduce or eliminate Brian's suffering, you wouldn't. Now wriggle out of that one.  

Your real name isn't Loren Daro, by any chance ?

Well said Andrew . As much as I love Brian and his music if I was there in the mid 60's I would stop Brian from using LSD. I do know from family and friends the damage drugs to the ones we love and If I was a friend of Brian's or truly cared about him I wouldn't of given him any drugs even dope!!!. And if that means no Smile but a happy stable family life for Brian I will go for happiness for the ones I love. I've never taken any "Drugs" in my younger days as much as my friends asked me too I'd walked away and I'm so glad I did because said friends now are f*cked up and brain damaged  . If Monkfish is Loren Daro then I hope he feels shame and reget over the whole drugs thing and if he says "Well if it wasn't me it would of been someone else" Well sorry thats crap!!. True friends don't wanna see their loved ones harmed or hurt whatever the pressure from their friends or themselves. I'm sorry for thr rant guys but I feel so strongly about the dangers of drugs because I've personally seen loved ones messed up by them over the years. Love and Mercy xx

[Andrew G. Doe]

I was joking about the Loren Daro bit, of course... but not the rest. I just cannot wrap my head around the concept of someone claiming to be a fan of Brian Wilson justifying his obvious and intense unhappiness by saying "well, yeah, but we got some great music out of it, didn't we ?"

[letsmakeit31]

I was joking about the Loren Daro bit, of course... but not the rest. I just cannot wrap my head around the concept of someone claiming to be a fan of Brian Wilson justifying his obvious and intense unhappiness by saying "well, yeah, but we got some great music out of it, didn't we ?"

Indeed and we could all say the same about Syd Barrett, Nick Drake, Peter Green, etc etc. All made some great music when using drugs or afterwards but would any of you like to be living the life of say Peter Green??, or before he died Syd Barrett post 1970??.
Also sorry to Monkfish for thinking your Loren Daro.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

[

Also sorry to Monkfish for thinking your Loren Daro.

Monkfish FTW!

[Roger Ryan]

I was joking about the Loren Daro bit, of course... but not the rest. I just cannot wrap my head around the concept of someone claiming to be a fan of Brian Wilson justifying his obvious and intense unhappiness by saying "well, yeah, but we got some great music out of it, didn't we ?"

Indeed and we could all say the same about Syd Barrett, Nick Drake, Peter Green, etc etc. All made some great music when using drugs or afterwards but would any of you like to be living the life of say Peter Green??, or before he died Syd Barrett post 1970??.
Also sorry to Monkfish for thinking your Loren Daro.

Peter Green has actually been doing quite a bit better over the past decade (although there have been ups-and-downs) as have Roky Erickson and Brian himself. A big reason for this is that all three of them are on medication that addresses their various psychological issues. We can't discount the fact that intensely creative folk may be prone to bi-polar disorder or other examples of mental illness. They may self-medicate themselves with illicit drugs (or simply use them for the thrill), but those drugs may not be the primary reason these gentlemen went off the rails. Illicit drugs can certainly exacerbate a previously existing condition and can harm otherwise healthy persons, but there are usually other reasons why someone indulges excessively in anything (food, drink, sex, drugs, collecting stamps).

I'm not saying anything new that hasn't been discussed to death over the past 25 pages or so, but I think it's inappropriate to make a blanket statement regarding illicit drug use and hold up individuals who probably suffered from pre-existing mental illness as examples of what can happen to those who take illicit drugs.

And, no, I'm not happy that Brian suffered for his art and I wish he could have gotten better psychological help a lot sooner than he did.

As for Syd Barrett, I suspect the last 20 years of his life were happier than some of us suppose.

[Cam Mott]

Can't someone in charge throw us a bone of a teaser on this mug. Just a tiny one. We're turning on each other here, we need something to focus outward on.

[letsmakeit31]

Roger I argee with you yes of course almost all creative people suffer and may use drugs, booze, overeating, or whatever to try to make themselves better. Please see the great Stephen Fry doc on depression for more insight. I'm the same I suffer from Depression so I do understand it totally and why some people may self-help themselves by taking booze or drugs just like Brian but all I'm saying is if your a friend don't be a part of this just try and get your help some sane help and love

[Dunderhead]

I think a lot of you are just talk. There's no way that any of you would have gotten Brian to quit using drugs, if indeed you had lived in LA in 1966. You would have just been another voice in the chorus of people who were worried and confused about what was happening to him. And why would Brian even listen to you? You all seem to think you'd be able to exert some superhuman amount of control over him, but I seriously doubt your concerns would have affected him.

I think it's really funny that people here demand that Loren feel shame. He shouldn't feel any shame. Brian was the one who did drugs, Brian was the one who f ucked himself up, not Loren. Brian was the master of his own destiny, the controller of his own fate. Loren didn't do jack to Brian Wilson, and is in no way shape or form "responsible" for what happened to him. You're all just looking for someone other than Brian to blame.

"But Loren laughed at Brian's painful moment!"
BS, I rewatched that doc, and the people attempting to transform Loren into this evil taskmaster are just grasping at straws. He's not laughing at Brian, he's laughing with Brian. BB junkies trade funny Brian anecdotes and stories all the time, yet for some reason you expect Loren to be totally solemn and prostrate himself before Brian, and never ever laugh at something Brian did. Loren likely doesn't blame himself for what happened to Brian, and he shouldn't. The two of them were friends, they had a good time together, and trying to reimagine Loren as some type of slimeball creep for simply having fond memories of the time he spent with one of his friends is delusional.


And I am happy that Brian lived the life that he lived. You can try and make me out to be some villain for that, because I don't join you in making hollow proclamations of how I'd "save" Brian from himself or whatever. Being happy is not the same thing as having sadistic glee, I'm happy that Brian Wilson is Brian Wilson and not anybody else. When you accept who you are, it's not a resignation like AGD seems to want it to be. Your mistakes aren't some cross to bear, you made your mistakes, and if you're happy with who you are you should realize that your mistakes helped you get there. And the only person responsible for those mistakes is yourself.

The attitude that some of you have is really strange, just a power fantasy of how'd you control Brian Wilson, because you know what's good for him. If you went back to 1966 he'd probably tell you to leave him alone and let him live his own life. Oh would you have Brian suffer only exactly the amount he needed in order to make the music you like? You're a real saint.  

[pixletwin]

Just because I feel like this needs quoting again. 

I've changed my mind, as I tend to when people start frantically backpeddaling.

And instead of pretending to be a humanitarian by white knighting for Brian on the internet, I'd rather accept everything that happened to him, good and bad.

No, no, no, no, no - you didn't say that at all originally. Here are your exact words:

I'm happy that Brian's career happened in the way that it happened, and I wouldn't change it.

There's an ocean of difference between accepting what happened - good or bad - and actually being happy about it. You've expressed pleasure at someone else's pain and profound unhappiness. Not only that, were you given the change to reduce or eliminate Brian's suffering, you wouldn't. Now wriggle out of that one.  

Your real name isn't Loren Daro, by any chance ?

[Dunderhead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pZSw7ojvw8

[pixletwin]

OT but I didn't know George Lopez was on TNG. 

[Mike's Beard]

I think a lot of you are just talk. There's no way that any of you would have gotten Brian to quit using drugs, if indeed you had lived in LA in 1966. You would have just been another voice in the chorus of people who were worried and confused about what was happening to him. And why would Brian even listen to you? You all seem to think you'd be able to exert some superhuman amount of control over him, but I seriously doubt your concerns would have affected him.

I think it's really funny that people here demand that Loren feel shame. He shouldn't feel any shame. Brian was the one who did drugs, Brian was the one who f ucked himself up, not Loren. Brian was the master of his own destiny, the controller of his own fate. Loren didn't do jack to Brian Wilson, and is in no way shape or form "responsible" for what happened to him. You're all just looking for someone other than Brian to blame.

"But Loren laughed at Brian's painful moment!"
BS, I rewatched that doc, and the people attempting to transform Loren into this evil taskmaster are just grasping at straws. He's not laughing at Brian, he's laughing with Brian. BB junkies trade funny Brian anecdotes and stories all the time, yet for some reason you expect Loren to be totally solemn and prostrate himself before Brian, and never ever laugh at something Brian did. Loren likely doesn't blame himself for what happened to Brian, and he shouldn't. The two of them were friends, they had a good time together, and trying to reimagine Loren as some type of slimeball creep for simply having fond memories of the time he spent with one of his friends is delusional.


And I am happy that Brian lived the life that he lived. You can try and make me out to be some villain for that, because I don't join you in making hollow proclamations of how I'd "save" Brian from himself or whatever. Being happy is not the same thing as having sadistic glee, I'm happy that Brian Wilson is Brian Wilson and not anybody else. When you accept who you are, it's not a resignation like AGD seems to want it to be. Your mistakes aren't some cross to bear, you made your mistakes, and if you're happy with who you are you should realize that your mistakes helped you get there. And the only person responsible for those mistakes is yourself.

The attitude that some of you have is really strange, just a power fantasy of how'd you control Brian Wilson, because you know what's good for him. If you went back to 1966 he'd probably tell you to leave him alone and let him live his own life. Oh would you have Brian suffer only exactly the amount he needed in order to make the music you like? You're a real saint.  

Nobody here wants to control Brian (his wivesandmanagers do a good enough job of that). Nobody here pretends to have the wonderful abilty to save people from their demons. Please stop twisting people's words.

[Ganz Allein]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pZSw7ojvw8

Captain Kirk would've taken out those Nausicaans and impaled them with one hand!  And Dennis would've loved it! 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think a lot of you are just talk. There's no way that any of you would have gotten Brian to quit using drugs, if indeed you had lived in LA in 1966. You would have just been another voice in the chorus of people who were worried and confused about what was happening to him. And why would Brian even listen to you? You all seem to think you'd be able to exert some superhuman amount of control over him, but I seriously doubt your concerns would have affected him.

I think it's really funny that people here demand that Loren feel shame. He shouldn't feel any shame. Brian was the one who did drugs, Brian was the one who f ucked himself up, not Loren. Brian was the master of his own destiny, the controller of his own fate. Loren didn't do jack to Brian Wilson, and is in no way shape or form "responsible" for what happened to him. You're all just looking for someone other than Brian to blame.

"But Loren laughed at Brian's painful moment!"
BS, I rewatched that doc, and the people attempting to transform Loren into this evil taskmaster are just grasping at straws. He's not laughing at Brian, he's laughing with Brian. BB junkies trade funny Brian anecdotes and stories all the time, yet for some reason you expect Loren to be totally solemn and prostrate himself before Brian, and never ever laugh at something Brian did. Loren likely doesn't blame himself for what happened to Brian, and he shouldn't. The two of them were friends, they had a good time together, and trying to reimagine Loren as some type of slimeball creep for simply having fond memories of the time he spent with one of his friends is delusional.


And I am happy that Brian lived the life that he lived. You can try and make me out to be some villain for that, because I don't join you in making hollow proclamations of how I'd "save" Brian from himself or whatever. Being happy is not the same thing as having sadistic glee, I'm happy that Brian Wilson is Brian Wilson and not anybody else. When you accept who you are, it's not a resignation like AGD seems to want it to be. Your mistakes aren't some cross to bear, you made your mistakes, and if you're happy with who you are you should realize that your mistakes helped you get there. And the only person responsible for those mistakes is yourself.

The attitude that some of you have is really strange, just a power fantasy of how'd you control Brian Wilson, because you know what's good for him. If you went back to 1966 he'd probably tell you to leave him alone and let him live his own life. Oh would you have Brian suffer only exactly the amount he needed in order to make the music you like? You're a real saint.  

Honestly, I was kidding when I asked if you were really Loren Daro... but now, I think maybe you are.

"if you're happy with who you are you should realize that your mistakes helped you get there" - "happy with who you are" isn't a phrase I'd ever apply to Brian Wilson 1971-76 or 1978-1991. You might be happy Brian lived the life he did, but there's a guy at the door with the initials BDW who would disagree with you. You're entirely missing the point in your attempt to justify the pro-drugs/Daro stance you've adopted: Brian has said many times, and as far back as the early seventies, that he wasn't happy, the drugs were a big mistake and he'd do it differently. He's experienced his pain first hand, so I figure that gives him more credibility in this (actually somewhat inane) debate.

[Mike's Beard]

Yes, don't confuse the obstacles people have to endure thoughout their life, which makes them a wiser and better person for overcoming them with a severe mental illness and drug dependency that caused an exceptionally talented guy to spend the prime years of his life on the sidelines in absolute hell. Yes Brian has against all odds made it through to the other side and seems to be much happier these days, but the toll it has taken on him and the scars he bears are easy to see. Romanticising his plight is just offensive.

[tansen]

What a pointless discussion: "I would have stopped Brian from taking drugs"/"I would have let him take drugs". I would have bought sh*t loads of stocks in Apple 30 years ago or so.
None of the above have any meaning, because they are all impossible things to do, today.

And Andrew, seriously man, do you really think Fishmonk is evil and want Brian to suffer? Like really?
We're all fans here, otherwise we wouldn't be on this board - it says it self. I think people must be able to have their own opinions without being deemed less of a fan or whatever.

Also, I wonder, is there a difference between being fan or Brian Wilson's music and the man himself? Do they go hand in hand, or is there a distinction. Just curious.

[letsmakeit31]

Yes, don't confuse the obstacles people have to endure thoughout their life, which makes them a wiser and better person for overcoming them with a severe mental illness and drug dependency that caused an exceptionally talented guy to spend the prime years of his life on the sidelines in absolute hell. Yes Brian has against all odds made it through to the other side and seems to be much happier these days, but the toll it has taken on him and the scars he bears are easy to see. Romanticising his plight is just offensive.

WELL SAID .
If any of us asked Brian today if he could go back and change anything about his life, I'm sure maybe Brian would of stopped himself from taking drugs.
Like I've said before I totally understand why some people like Brian who are ill would wanna self- medication themselves, When your depressed or worse hearing voices you would try anything to make yourselves happy and at peace.....
BUT any so-called friends who actively wanna give Brian or anyone drugs be it dope or acid etc, aren't what I would call true friends.
For me personally I've suffered from severe depression for many years and have only the past couple of years faced up and slowly battled my way towards being happy and my true self.
I'm also very lucky to have the emotional support and love from my family and my TRUE friends even if I did sometimes try to push them away and be in denial (Which I was for many years).
Other so-called friends tried their best to push me into taking drugs saying "How much better I would feel". I somehow mananged to walk away from that as much I was temped to take drugs in order sent me into Obilvon.
Yes of course Brian made some of the most beautiful music ever, And Pet Sounds for me is where I started me onto being a big fan of Brian and the Beach Boys.
The emotional healing I get from listening to Pet Sounds and other pieces of music has got me thorugh some very tough times.
BUT Brian has paid a massive price in his life which hasn't been helped by "friends" encourging him and taking part in his drug taking.
I hope you can all see my point, we all love Brian and his music but to some people on here please don't romanticising his drug taking and the so called "Positive effects" it had on his music when the negative effects of drugs in his life are so damaging to himself and his family. Love and Mercy xx