[Say You Will]

So anybody kinda feel like the money hungry Mick Fleetwood and Stevie Nicks (the only member who didn't wanna make a new album) are the Mike Love's of Fleetwood Mac world? Now obviously, unlike The Beach Boys, Mick Fleetwood and John McVie indeed should have more say over who's in the band than Lindsey, as Lindsey joined their band, but it is interesting that when Stevie wanted to do her little solo album and tour with whoever they would hold up the works for her. But if Lindsey wanted to do something similar (which is what this seems like), well they have no time for him. Seems like a double standard.

And then you got Stevie who would basically badmouth Lindsey in every interview and who basically refused to work on new Fleetwood Mac material with him since 2003's Say You Will. I suppose we could mention that she added a 40 year old song and a few vocals to their 2013 EP entitled Extended Play, but it's obvious that we got that and the Lindsey Buckingham/Christine McVie album instead of a full length Fleetwood Mac album because Stevie didn't wanna work with Lindsey. Which is her right, just as Mike doesn't have to work with Brian and Al. But just like Mike, instead of admitting she just didn't wanna work with Lindsey, she would say things in interviews like "nobody buys albums anymore so why should we make new albums" while, you know, putting on new solo albums and thus making a joke of her entire point.

Now, unlike Brian and Al's last very short tenure in the touring Beach Boys group, Lindsey had been playing with the Mac since 1997, and if you haven't seen him with them by now, you can't say you didn't have a chance. But for those who might just be getting into the group and wanted to see the Rumours five, well that opportunity is gone for now. But here's hoping that as a Buckingham fan that on his next tours he will dig deeper into his catalog and play some deeper cuts from Tusk, Tango In The Night, Law and Order and Go Insane.

Apr 4 1972-Brian held a session to record a version of the Crazy Elephant tune “Gimme, Gimme Good Lovin.”   

Surprised nobody else noticed this. I'd seen this listed before on a sessions site, and figured it was either a cover of "Gimme Some Lovin'" or Brian and David Sandler's medley of "Baby I Need Your Lovin'" and "Gimme Some Lovin'" that he apparently proposed to The Beach Boys.

So if it was indeed "Gimme Gimme Good Lovin'" that would mean that Brian worked on both that tune and that other medley, right?

Or is this all still a confused mess?

[Man With All the Boys]

Doing remakes seems to be an odd, and somewhat bewildering, habit among the surviving Beach Boys going back 20 odd years now.   I can kinda see them trying to maybe improve on a song (ie. extending the Man With All the Boys), or doing more obscure songs that may have been overlooked the first time around. 

When did any of the guys do a song about Kevin Spacey?

["when Brian had found out That's Why God Made The Radio made the charts at number 3, he was practically skipping around backstage in joy!"]

I think this is a super interesting thread and would love to contribute more (if I weren't at work maybe I would). But I must add...

I don't think Brian's focus on sales has ever left him (and I personally don't think there's anything wrong with that). And if anybody disagrees, let's remember that either Ray Lawlor or Joe Thomas was quoted as saying something like, "when Brian had found out That's Why God Made The Radio made the charts at number 3, he was practically skipping around backstage in joy!"

I think that tells us a lot. And it's too bad other members (or a certain member) of the band couldn't have been as happy about the chart placement as Brian was.

Looking at Wiki, the guy is apparently a staunch Libertarian, which explains the dispassionate, blunt nature of his writing and the penchant for being skeptical of the "tortured artist" motif vis-à-vis the "hard working guy who front the band" motif.

I hate to go there, but am I the only one who finds it odd that usually those who are much more forgiving to Mike and Bruce's f***ed up behavior seem to be on the far right side of the political spectrum?

[Dylan]

The point is that it was tacky across the board. Imagine McCartney or Springsteen or Dylan having Cheerleaders on numerous songs.

I could see Zimmy doing it just to do it! Except maybe he'd have Victoria Secret models stalking the stage.

[there]

In my experience going back, well, let's just say a number of decades, Mike's on-stage shtick has *always* had a very MIXED reception.

In the earliest days when the BBs were experiencing their mini version of "Beatlemania", you can see the screaming is happening for everyone. Indeed, watch them do "Wendy" on Sullivan in '64, and you can see the level of enthusiasm for each member. As I recall, it pans to Al who gets a few squeaks from the audience (poor Al), then to Carl who gets a bit more of a response, then Brian who gets more, then Mike who gets more, culminating in Dennis who was by far the most "popular" member of the band on stage.

But even by '66 or so, when the screaming died down and they were doing something closer to "regular" shows, Mike's on stage shtick has always had a mixture of laughs and groans, of tolerance and eye rolling. Mike has *always* been the guy in the room doing the jokes and telling the stories that ride the edge of funny vs. annoying.

Just as Stamos and Full House, or Mike's "wheeeeeeeeeeen" bit on "Be True to Your School", or having cheerleaders on stage, and a bunch of other stuff, his on-stage persona has seemed to be amusing to some, tolerated by others, along with a healthy helping of eye-rolling and groans. Look at his bit on "Cool Cool Water" on David Frost (I think) from 1970. Is that funny and cool, or totally ridiculous and groan-worthy?

We can actually go all the way back to the David Marks era. Watch Mike dance during "Surfin' USA" on that TV appearance seen in "Endless Harmony." I mean, they *all* look like dorks in those outfits, but then Mike goes into his dancing bit. Even in the day when that was "cool", I sense his shtick wore thin on audiences. Especially non-screaming girls.

He's a bit like Bob Hope. Some remember his USO shows and bits fondly, while others *always* had nothing but disdain for the guy. I asked a guy who was in the Army in that era what people actually thought of Bob Hope, and ton of them *hated* the guy.

Similarly, even *years* before Mike's Rock Hall speech and all of that, he had a huge reputation for being one of the major a-holes of rock and roll. Some of it was based on incorrect info or improper context. But much of reputation was well-deserved. He's had *that* reputation since the 60s to some degree.

People think it gets rough for Mike on boards online and stuff, and I can tell you I've heard *far* worse things uttered about Mike from people in the industry and non-fans. All weighed accordingly of course.

But as with the Jan & Dean stuff, it's important to not let history be rewritten. Mike being marginalized as if he played no role in the band's success is absolutely wrong. But Bruce Johnston's "Mike is just as important as Brian" thing is not really quite accurate either, especially if we're taking a broad historical view of the band.

I think we need to get the viewpoint of people who were actually there more than those of us who are looking through 2010's lenses (or really through the lens of anything but the early to mid '60s). So for that maybe we could hear from Lee Marshall or Debbie Keil?

Anyways, I've spoken with my mom, dad, their friends, etc who were alive and aware in that era and most of them agreed that Mike Love was a bit of a dork. That's just what they said. And that's through the eyes of girls (and guys) who were from like seven to fifteenish years old at the time. Now they also thought Mike was a great singer and they all know his name still and when asked who the "lead singer" of The Beach Boys is, they'd say Mike Love and not Brian Wilson or Carl Wilson.

So I do think the whole, "he's been such a great entertainer since the beginning" thing is a bit shabby. I'd say he really only came into his own fully by the early '70s and peaked in the mid '70s while bottoming out whenever they brought the cheerleaders in.

[Smiley Smile]

I think the Smiley Smile/7" release of Heroes and Villains is superior to the version he edited together in early 1967. I couldn't imagine that one charting at all.

Even though I love both versions, I have to admit I find it hard to see how the earlier version would've done all that well either. It has to recognizable chorus to speak of, and it truly is all over the place. I personally think it's a work of genius, but it is really out there.

Whereas with the single (later issued on Smiley Smile) you had the recognizable chorus and whatnot, and I think that helped it be pretty successful. I find it odd that some people were disappointed with it's showing on the charts. Sure, it was number 1, but a number 12 is still higher ranking than "Surfin' Safari", "Little Deuce Coupe" and "In My Room", not to mention others.

Yes to wrinkled mouth, a definite no to AC Slater chair posturing. 

What about the mic? Who on earth thought that was a good idea. And no, I don't believe it was for a second supposed to be ironic. And truly that's what I love about Brian, among many other things, the naïveté. But still....that photo!! 

Great pic!

Don't know if this photo has been posted, but, its.......um... funny.

Who the hell's idea was it to do this shot!?

Mods???

Yeah mods.....where are ya? I'm being painted as some kind of child stalker by a man who at one moment talks about his children and then at another time encourages our board members to use dugs instead of listening to Jan & Dean.

What a relief!!!

The adult male who posts THOUSANDS of times on a message board using numerous aliases assures me, he's only stalking/collecting photos of ME -- and NOT my small children.
Whew!!!

Tommy -- or whatever your name is -- stop PM-ing me.

You seem to have an obsession with looking at photos of small children. I would guess that something that you yourself need to deal with on your own sir.

[ABSOLUTELY NOT.]

What Jon said.

Especially about the Tommy Wiseau stuff. Ad hominem stuff *about people on this board* should never be allowed, but it's especially annoying coming from a person who posts under a full pseudonym.

You're right. I fully regret using a persons looks to make a point, especially when I was trying to make a point about standing up for overweight people and handicapped people. I stepped into a trap of my own making and I regret it. Though I have issues with Howie and how he portrays others, he didn't deserve that kind of treatment and also deserved a true apology, which I have not given him. I don't expect him to accept it and that's okay. The only issue I truly take with him is that he is claims I'm looking at photos of his family. Not quite. I have no interest in that, nor do I think that's right in any way. I had remembered what he looked like from years ago seeing him tagged in a Facebook friend's post (I think) and was just Googling him to check. Now was that right, just to prove a point? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Maybe it's the fighting with the Cam Mott's and the AGD's, maybe it's the constant politicization of the world, but regardless, it's on me for breaching the boards rules. I've stepped back and realized how stupid it is to be fighting with other Beach Boys fans!!! There aren't zillions of people who can discuss the grandness of "Wake The World" and "Do You Like Worms" and "Caroline No" and therefore, I think I need to chill and be happy that there is a great forum like this to discuss The Beach Boys.

Anyway, with all that said, I think I do deserve to be penalized for not following board rules and attacking a valued member in that way. While I hope I could keep my reading privileges I think it would be fair if I were banned from posting for a month or two. I truly regret what I did and maybe I can make a comeback if the moderators and other posters find it right. If not, I understand. Sorry for clogging up this interesting thread with this, but I felt it had to be done.

I'm saying "who are YOU???" -- because you're admonishing me as if you KNOW me.

You should've read that as:

1. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. Don't compare me with Donald Trump.
3. Don't comment on my appearance to make a point (are you checking out pics of my kids TOO???)

2800 posts and you don't know how to discuss this like an adult and keep it on the up and up???

I gave a mea culpa and you refused. This is noted. I don't KNOW anyone on this board.

Secondly, don't talk about anybody's kids. Don't make it about that. I have a daughter and I don't think that kinda stuff is useful in making a point. I don't find it amusing to be compared to a predator. If you have got a problem, private message me. Otherwise drop it. I'm willing to have a dialogue with you, but sense you'll be too cool for that.

Who are YOU???
Watch your tone with me.

I have no idea who YOU are -- why are you searching out photos of ME, Tommy???

And to be perfectly clear I'm not mocking anything. I'm describing EXACTLY what I saw.

Wow. I'm disappointed. I am big fan of your work and all the writing you've done and I always look forward to reading your stuff. However I see that you think you're above me because I don't know who you know, and dared to point out that I thought you wrote some inappropriate stuff. Your response that you were reporting what you saw passes muster for me though and I'll give you that it's different from you *making fun*. But it did draw me back for a second.

And I googled "Howie Edelson" after your posts. And since I've read your liner notes in a few releases, I'd say it's fair that you're a public person. So I looked you up. So what? If I want to feel lorded over by the so-called "cool kids in class" I'll go speak with David Beard and Andrew Doe. I didn't think I'd be spoken down to on this board. However, I'm wrong. I must be one of those "total nerds" that you hate, which is a shame, cuz I thought you seemed like a straight up, decent guy.

Also regarding the Jan & Dean show -- although not publicly marketed as such -- was a Beach Boys cover act. As was Papa and now the Endless Summer whatever. Perfect for corporate gigs and low-scale fundraisers (I saw Jan & Dean in, I think 2001, in the parking lot at Glendale Hospital. Jan performed, slumped, sitting on a hard metal folding chair with a spilled full can of Diet Rite at his velcroed orthopedic shoes.)

You want the Beach Boys but can only pay #4,450 -- here ya go. Like a farm league. I was always amazed that BRI never flexed its muscles with Dean regarding someone else touring, what is essentially, the Beach Boys' act.

Although there were a handful of obese men holding J&D magazines and 45's, the vast majority of the (maybe 100) people probably walked away from that parking lot gig saying "The Beach Boys were dynamite!" and then completely forgot the entire event ever happened.

Dude...you're veering a bit close to mocking a disabled man. While I personally think it would have been better if Jan stopped touring by the point, I still don't think we should mock a man who was in his condition. Let's leave that to this piece of sh*t:



Also, mocking obese dudes? C'mon. I've seen photos of you, and you're a good lookin' dude, though not exactly tiny (and for that fact, neither am I. I weigh a cool 215 and have a bit of a belly as anybody who's friends with me on Facebook can see).

I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money.



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.

Totally agree about Jan most likely being a dick before the accident, and Dean being one afterwards! Still, that doesn't takeaway from the music--Universal Coward and Only A Boy are actually nice songs from a musical standpoint, but the lyrics are a whole different issue. I try to separate the personal from the music when dealing with artists that I don't know personally. It's the usual Mike Love argument--you can still enjoy the music, even with Mike (who will all know is a hardcore right-winger) singing it. And, as you likely know, Mike and Dean have been good friends for a long time.

You know, it's not so much Jan's earlier political beliefs at all, it was just that it was so damn hypocritical of him to be pushing for this war while trying his best to get out of serving his country. It doesn't bother me that Carl Wilson was a draft dodger because he was anti-war and cited his religious beliefs. He had a reason for not wanting to go. Jan on the other hand wanted to stay home and cheat on his girlfriend and make songs about how one should serve their country.

I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money.



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.

Billy, I'm thrilled to hear you agree with me! I've been thinking this for years.

I'm confused as to what you guys agree on...

Nah. I think it was the Four Freshman and the Four Seasons that did more for Brian's falsetto.

[Ten years of Harmony]

Wontcha Come Out Tonight: Brian's vocal in each refrain is the same recording.

If this isn't true, I'd be especially surprised. I was listening to it (via the UK CD version of Ten years of Harmony) and the way it goes from the verse to the chorus, you can pretty much hear the point where they pasted the chorus in.

Another Classic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHkmuU-MsM

That one was actually officially released too!!

There’s a few others, but the oddest one is from Mujan/Super Metroid  who has stated that she felt upset that there was no response to the bullying she received , which is not true. Not only did I stick up for her, I banned the person doing the lions share of it... who now posts there at PSF , for what it’s worth.

For the most part though, most of the people there are cool, no issues with steamboat, Becca, Will Harris, etc. it’s the people like the ones GF mentioned that are an issue albeit increasingly smaller. I think most people on both boards have put the issues behind them.

I agree with you Billy. And I gotta say, Mujan is especially weird because I'd say that Smiley Smile is a much more open, socially progressive board than PSF and people like The Real Beach Boy and mikesbeard and other homophobic/transphobic types on that board.

I can understand the label wanting the familiar song titles on there in a way.....

.....if, say, it was 1995 and you can find this album in any store. Now, Best Buy soon won't be carrying CDs, while I'm pretty sure places like Wal Mart and Target don't carry half as many CDs as they used to. So I'm gonna say that the whole "impulse buy" thing has mostly went out the window with the way things work now. Now, granted somebody may decide to buy a copy on Amazon due to the tracklisting, but one might also assume the person would sample some of the remakes and hear how horrible those versions are and be turned off to the entire project.