Hey all, so since this got re-booted by chewy, I figure I'd let everybody know. The part one and part two versions are indeed studio recordings. And part 2 is also the same thing as "The Original Surfer Stomp."

did surfer stomp come out before Beach Boys Surfin Safari single?

Yes it did. Apparently "Do the Surfer Stomp" came  out in February of 1962, while "Surfin' Safari" came out in June.

It's pretty clear that the BBs were running on fumes from 1998-2012

Oh, I know. I mean Sounds of Summer only managed to sell 3 Million copies.

Obviously I'm not Mr. Malcolm but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean The Beach Boys as a brand but more as a current, active band that tours and makes music.

[Youngblood]

Carl's solo albums definitely have enjoyable moments compositionally and performance-wise.

But the production on both albums is very sterile and lacking in energy/dynamics. I think things perked up production-wise a little bit on the second album; "What You Do To Me" has a peppy arrangement and production if nothing else (though I'd say that song sounds *too* light and bubblegummy, even for a BB-related record).

I've always contended that, for the first album for instance, the live 1981 shows breathed *way* more life into those songs.

As a whole, Carl's solo albums are inoffensive at worst, and at times are quite enjoyable. They feature neither the highs nor lows of contemporaneous BB albums.

I think a lot of fans agree that when Brian Wilson was able to just do whatever struck him, that tended to be the more pure and often most enjoyable. As was said all the way back to something like "Friends", when you hear that Brian is doing his own thing and *isn't* pulling in a bunch of contemporary musical influences (and when they are influences they tend to be relatively far off from pop, like Bacharach), that often *feels* right. This is true all the way up to the present. "That Lucky Old Sun" is enjoyable, but there's a good amount of Bennett in those songs. But then, you hear "Message Man" and it sounds like Brian's deal and nobody else's. I digress on this to point out that Carl never got quite to that place. He just didn't write/record/release enough material (solo, or on BB albums for that matter, certainly by the 80s) to evolve (or maybe even "de-evolve" as it were) to just purely and solely follow his own muse.

I'm not saying his solo (or BB) material is hugely compromised or anything. But the two 80s albums sound like he's either trying hard to make it mostly *not* sound like the BBs, and/or he's doing the kind of music *he likes* more than the type of music that might most purely and easily come out of him. I think, in terms of *composition*, he may have reached a slightly more pure place with his BB '85 tracks and the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" stuff recorded in the 90s. But in the case of "Beckley Lamm Wilson", some quite good compositions are again hampered by pretty stale production and arrangement. I'd still love to take some of those songs like "They're Only Words" and strip a lot of the backing track away and see it partly re-recorded and remixed.

Absolutely wonderful post Mr. Jude. Especially about Brian's work.

However, I will offer a bit of a different view on Carl's music post Youngblood. I think Carl's stuff from The Beach Boys '85 album and on was him in his element. His sweet spot. You know, like the "Message Man" type Brian you're talking about. This isn't a diss to him at all by the way. I just think that adult contemporary rock was where Carl felt comfortable. So while the production choices on things like "Like A Brother" or some of the others aren't what I may have done, I think I understand where Carl was at with this stuff. And it kinda makes me wonder where Carl woulda stood had he made it long enough to see Brian finish Imagination with Joe Thomas. I think that possibly unlike Brian's Paley material, Imagination was right in the '80s and '90s version of Carl Wilson's wheelhouse. I've thought about a thread expanding on what woulda happened with The Beach Boys had Carl beat his cancer and perhaps I will, but one has to wonder if Carl woulda worked with Brian and if Brian woulda kept a foot in The Beach Boys camp as an active member. And so on. But wow I went off the original topic.

Why do so many people on this board pretend that Brian live is good? This guy shouldn't be out on tour-the video's I've seen are really of a guy who seems almost forced to be participating in a show...

NPP tour I saw in 2015 begs to differ

Absolutely. I saw Brian (with Al and Blondie) in 2015 and it was amazing. Absolutely wonderful show.

[Postcard]

“It’s Getting Late” > “Getcha Back”
“Back Where I Belong” > “She Believes in Love Again”

Carl’s material on this album is head shoulders above three rest.

This brings up an interesting question to ponder...

What do people think of the evolution/change of Carl's songwriting from Youngblood to BB85?

-Was it an intentional shift to write songs more suited for the full BBs band somehow?
-Or was he just collaborating with different people who influenced the direction?
-Or did he simply take his time on BB85 by spending longer times in the studio to get things right, as opposed to his solo albums which might have been done quicker during breaks from touring?

It seems Carl's songs on BB85 were overall considerably better (in terms of composition and production) on BB85 when compared to his solo albums that came right before, IMHO.

Pretty much correct. I'm a Beach Boys solo album freak. I've got a bunch of Brian's stuff, a bunch of Mike's (sometimes very rare) stuff, Al's Postcard, Dennis' Pacific Ocean Blue and even nice bit of Bruce's stuff and his projects (I have Bruce & Terry, The Hot Doggers, other Bruce stuff, but definitely not Going Public). But for some reason I never could pull the trigger on either of Carl's solo albums. And I think the reason for that is the same reason I don't think I'll ever touch Going Public. They're kinda boring and obvious. Whatever you say about Mike's solo material, or Brian's Gettin' in Over My Head or freaking Bruce's Bob Sled & The Toboggans, at least it's entertainingly bad! Carl's solo albums are just regular boring music for the most part ("Heaven" definitely excepted. I think Carl wrote a great one there).

So the key to learn from this is when you do something that isn't very good at least make it entertainingly bad!

On the other hand though, I think the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson songs Carl wrote are really nice. "Like A Brother", "I Wish For You" and "Run Don't Walk" are all really nice songs that I'm pretty sure woulda been able to fit in to a cool Beach Boys album anywhere from the mid '80s to the 00's. Just my opinion.

["If someone wants to see the band that has been continuously on the road for 5 decades, it's because of Mike Love."]

You don't have to get insulting. I did not say or imply that Mike is the reason the BB still matter and I certainly did not say "f*#k you if you disagree. If someone wants to see the band that has been continuously on the road for 5 decades, it's because of Mike Love. There, I've proved you wrong.
I don't recall insulting anyone on this site except for the guys that took cheap shots at the book in a public forum. That was just rude and insulting and needless harm was caused. Calling my work a "waste of money" was hurtful. Perhaps you've had enough of me on this site.
Fair enough. I grow weary of some of you as well. But I repeat I never said "f*#k you" if you disagree.
My apologies to the rest of the Smile members for my part in engendering that kind of response.
I'm not Rocky by the way as I've said elsewhere. That's simply not true.
All The Best, Smilers. "I'm still here."

And again, I'd be pleased to post the Palisadian Review. Some of you may enjoy seeing it and without paying $30.00 for a subscription, that will not be possible.
If someone can instruct me as to how to post a PDF file on here, I'll put it up. Thanks.

I do not think I was insulting at all. In fact, I feel very insulted that you haven't deemed it appropriate to engage me in real conversation after I went point by point refuting your claim.

Now, lets get to your point about Mike Love. Your initial point was not "If someone wants to see the band that has been continuously on the road for 5 decades, it's because of Mike Love." It was more along the lines of, "The reason the band is still alive and still exists to the rank and file out there on Planet Earth is the one and only "Mike Love."

Now if you mean, that Mike Love is the only original Beach Boy that people can see perform as "The Beach Boys" then yes, you're correct. But even, the fact that you said the "reason the band is still alive and still exists" is to due Mike Love, that's incorrect. The reason Brian and Al, who are still legally Beach Boys can't tour with The Beach Boys is because Mike Love has paid to have the license. If Mike truly cared about "keeping the legacy alive" and bringing us the music "the way it should be" shouldn't he have allowed the main songwriter and also a very, very important voice to keep touring with him?

And if you say, he keeps the music out there....well, so does Brian and Al. And even David Marks. Though I have a feeling you don't know who David Marks is, so I'll let you know. He was in the group early on, played on quite a few hit singles and appeared on their first four albums, and also on the group's latest, 2012's That's Why God Made The Radio.

Also, you said something like, "the fact that the BB are still around, unlike the Beatles or Jimmy Hendricks, for instance, is a show business miracle in many ways. It's not just the music," is alluding to Mike Love touring I presume. And last I checked he's one guy. So by that reasoning, if Paul McCartney decided he wanted to tour as "The Beatles" starting next week would that mean that the group "The Beatles" were once again a real, current performing group? Because by your rationale, that's what this means. Also, who is Jimmy Hendricks?

Lastly, I for one do not care one iota about the Palisadian Review, though I wish you luck with your book and may at some point purchase a copy. Though I'm disappointed by all the mistakes I've heard about, I may still give it a chance.

Jim V,

While you were thorough in your analysis and obviously know your stuff, I disagree with you on some points.

As for Jan and the war, I can understand your frustration. Here's a Mark A Moore (J&D historian) quote from the J&D board that should clear everything up. "Both sides were fair game. I mean, we're talking about Jan & Dean here. "In my view, the personal political leanings of J&D in 1965-66 are of little consequence. Universal Coward poked fun at the anti-war movement -- and Eve of Destruction was -- to quote a phrase I've used before -- delivered with exaggerated angst... According to Roger Christian -- who was as close to Jan as anyone -- the establishment viewed Only A Boy as an anti-war song -- because it was soliciting sympathy for a kid (a soldier) who's life had been snuffed out before it really began."

As for Dean's feelings about J&D's music, I'd say it's much more complicated than you make it out to be. Jan was 100% in control from 1963-1966 with the production of those records. He had total say over every note committed to tape. Dean was merely the sideman. I remember Dean saying something like "You either did it Jan's way or you didn't do it. I was just happy to do it." But many people close to the situation have expressed that Dean would have liked more creative input during Phase I. Perhaps his dislike of some of Jan's work was similar to Mike's alleged dislike of Brian's--- the fear of not being needed anymore. I'm sure it was frightening, in a way, for guys like Mike and Dean (talented, but not mega hit producers) to watch their peers grow into Singer/Songwriter/Instrumentalist/Producer/Arrangers while Mike and Dean were singers and lyricists at most, with limited instrumental proficiency. Both Mike and Dean helped bring their respective groups to fame, but it was Jan and Brian who were the masterminds. Jan and Brian could have used anyone. (Jan, did, with Arnie in 1958) Mike and Dean were probably scared that their careers were at stake. With that in mind, it's much easier to wrap your head around why they would have negative feelings towards a song or an era of artistic growth (SMiLE for Mike, Folk N Roll for Dean)  To simply sum up Dean as a money hungry douche, when you don't know the guy is a little absurd. I met Dean and he couldn't be more gracious. We talked about Jan's arranging skills his great use of harmony. Dean isn't oblivious to all this. He appreciates the artistic side of the music. In retrospect, maybe it was wise of him to think kids were going to buy You Really Know How To Hurt a Guy as an A side single in 1965 or that 2019 audiences would rather hear him sing "Do It Again" than "Horace, Swinging School Bus Driver"

My personal opinion is that J&D are more than "somewhat worthwhile". I think there's a lot to be learned about production and arranging from J&D's songs. Many classic tunes like Anaheim and Honolulu Lulu were pretty innovative with their layers of vocal harmonies, three or four guitars, two basses, two drum kits, keys, horns, etc.. Those songs sound powerful no matter the medium. Especially in mono. Jan also used a lot of compression and limiting on those songs. I think these production techniques and aesthetics are why he often gets compared to Brian Wilson and Phil Spector, aside from the obvious genre/regional overlaps.

As for the humor, to each his own. I find it laugh out loud funny. There must have been something memorable about their humor, if people still remember it 50+ years on.

Thanks for acknowledging the tribal nature between BBs and J&D fans. There definitely is a middle ground. You can appreciate one group, without diminishing your love for the other. Actually the opposite happens. I think hearing the differences between the groups made me appreciate each other more. J&D's (often times off-key) crooning has made me appreciate the BBs immaculate pitch and intonation. Brian's sometimes thin-sounding surf-era arrangements have made me appreciate Jan's powerful dual-drum tracks. Both bands compliment each other perfectly. Brian's music can often be categorized as introspective and personal, whereas Jan's leaned towards the goofy side. That's why hearing Little Old Lady at a BBs show or Sail On Sailor at a J&D show, doesn't upset me and actually, when played well, brings a smile to my face. Fortunately, J&D and The BBs have always had great musicians, so I'm rarely left in disappointment.

Thanks for the response Nate! And I dig that you're a fan of Jan & Dean. Perhaps if I find the time I'll respond a bit more thoroughly at some point!

Cool. Hopefully it's still up when I'm on a computer with sound. However, it's tagged as #1998. If it's "Terry/Terri She Needs Me" wouldn't it be 1988?

[Fun City]

I've been meaning to post on here for a while but things kept getting in the way. I know the thread is about Mike and Dean, but it's also strayed off here and there to general Jan and Dean type stuff. And I dunno, but I just wanna throw a few thoughts out there and see what y'all think.

First of all, Jan. Seemed like he had it all. Good looks, musical talent, kinda funny (we'll get back to that later). But once I learned about Jan and Dean, I started getting rubbed the wrong way by a bit about him. I'd say a lot of it comes from the fact that he was out there writing songs like "The Universal Coward" and "Only a Boy" which, for all intents and purposes, were pro-war. Which, you know, that was his prerogative. However, when I learned that he was trying to find any excuse so he wouldn't have to go to Vietnam after he got drafted, I lost a shitload of respect for the man. Because in my world, the kinda person that does was he was trying to do is a called a fuckin' CHICKEN HAWK. It was fine for other people to go fight wars and for parents to lose their children, our wives to lose their sons for something Jan Berry believed in, but it wasn't good enough for Jan Berry himself to have the balls to go and fight for what he claimed he believed in. Carl Wilson is a totally different story because he had a religious reason as a nonviolent person who apparently did not support the war, so I never though twice about the kind of man he was. Not the same feeling for me in Jan's case. Now the shitty thing is, apparently all this draft stuff was weighing on Jan's mind when the fateful accident happened. And don't get me wrong, I think what happened was a horrible horrible moment in rock 'n roll history, and really just a horrible moment, for a smart, good looking rock and roll star who could've been a doctor or maybe changed with the times and kept Jan and Dean in the thick of things in the rock scene. But alas, what happened happened. And nothing can change that unfortunately.

Now the crazy thing to me is, as much as I like a bit of what we'll call "phase 1" Jan & Dean music, the stuff that I actually really dig from Jan is the stuff he did during the '70s and early '80s. Originals like "Fun City" and "Totally Wild" and covers like "Don't You Just Know It" and "Little Queenie" are a heck of a lot better than they have any right being, given the circumstances. In fact, I think Jan's career trajectory would be given a bit more love if perhaps a nice compilation was made covering this stuff. I have one called Fun City that was done on K-Tel I think, but really it seems like that one could improved on.

So then we have Dean, I think he was definitely the Mike Love of the group. Whereas, apparently Mike started getting a like prickly about the music or the lyrics around Pet Sounds and SMiLE apparently Dean was pissing and moaning as early as "I Found a Girl" or "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" during his duos career. Apparently these songs weren't "fun" enough or something. Compared to Dean, Mike seems positively progressive in a musical sense! Man. But then when Jan is out of commission (post accident but pre Carnival of Sound sessions) he goes and makes a kinda nice, kinda contemporary little album entitled Save For A Rainy Day, which honestly might be the best non compilation album ever released under the Jan & Dean name. So what was it? Just jealousy? Who knows. But now, regardless of any of that, post Jan's death, Dean in my opinion has been a horrible steward of the Jan & Dean legacy. It doesn't even seem like he's tried to push them as a group of any artistic merit, while at the same time whining that they aren't in the RRHOF.  But yeah, ever since "phase 2" (late '70s through Jan's death) there was no attention paid on stage to any of the, shall we say, non car or surf songs as far as I know. You'd never see anything like "Jennie Lee", "Baby Talk", "I Found a Girl", "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" or anything else. It was just the old standbys. And I know you could say it woulda been heard to do the early doo-wop cuts, I think Jan coulda given "You Really Know How..." a decent shot in the later days and done it kinda well. And I think the blame for most of this has to go to Dean. I don't think he cares much about anything other than money. I remember reading something with him around 2012 where he said he didn't think he would probably do any new music because of the "political stuff" and the "economy" and blah blah. Sounded like he was another angry old white guy even though I'm sure he's got more than enough $$. Plus who the f*** gives a sh*t about solo Dean Torrence music in 2019? Give me a break. So yeah, unless I'm proven wrong, Dean to me is a money hungry douche who wrote a few nice songs, and who had a falsetto better than I think some give him credit for.

And while we are on somewhat maybe....controversial....opinions, I'll say this. Both sides of the Jan and Dean debate are annoying. The side of Beach Boys fandom who think they (The Beach Boys and their fans) are the cool kids and think that Jan & Dean and their fans are dumb jocks and whatever I just think is stupid. Brian Wilson thought they were decent enough to work with for like 4 or 5 years so they musta been somewhat worthwhile. And that's what they are to me. Somewhat worthwhile. They are good for a few singles. Get their 10 song Greatest Hits and you're fine. And the people that claim that Jan was anywhere near Spector or especially Brian are out of their minds. I know he was supposed "first" to use certain musicians or whatever, but who cares. There was a guy who first played quarterback in like 1920, but that doesn't mean he's better than Tom Brady. So stop bothering to try comparing Jan to Brian. They aren't close. In the same year Brian did Pet Sounds and The Beatles put out Revolver, we got Batman from Jan. And I'm not hating, it's funny. But if he was really there like some of his fans say he was, then why was he recording oldies before the accident? So in conclusion, Jan's music is alright. Don't let the self-proclaimed "cool kids" change your mind if you dig some of it. But also be realistic and don't compare him to BW. Just my opinion.

Anyways, that is all. Haha. I take this stuff just WAY too seriously!

[EDIT]: Forgot to address the "funny" thing. I think their sense of humor is highly, highly overrated. I know humor is subjective and what I find funny may not be what you find funny, but I always hear about how they were the "original punks" or some garbage. And that's just what it is...garbage. Their humor has a tinge of anti-humor to it, which I can dig, but besides that I think they weren't much different from many of the other mid '60s rock acts. Like if Jan and Dean's humor was "punk" then surely The Beatles was. And The Who's. And Brian's well....Brian's was just different. Haha. But yeah I think the punk mantle just kinda got given to them to give them more props just because the stock of their group has fallen heavily since the '60s and especially since the '80s. Which is sad, but they weren't the cream of the crop. They had a few nice songs, but that was it. And NOW, finally I am done with this for real!

Jim, you apparently don't "get it".  Ron has years of experience in show biz, so that outweighs the piddly knowledge of people on this board.  The idea that Brian is the main reason for the Beach Boys "mattering" is delusional, as only Ron knows.  Mike has the brand name, so that's all that matters. It may be true that Ron has no actual experience with the group, but that isn't important.  Ron knows Rocky, so that's enough to make him an expert on the legacy of the Beach Boys.

Now I'm going to meditate...

Haha. In times like this I wish there was a like button. That was good!

[Brian touring]

The BB are still here and it is because of Mike Love, for better or for worse, but that's the fact.
CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE.

Did you even read what I wrote? It seems like you are clueless. If we are talking about there being a band out on the road named "The Beach Boys" because of Mike Love, sure, I'll buy that. But as far as the group being anywhere near pop culture...once again, here are the reasons they've mattered since we lost Carl...

You just don't get it man. Just because he kept the "name" out there doesn't mean he did any good. Seeing him and his band on the CW channel doing his solo tunes isn't doing The Beach Boys name any good. And honestly, why are The Beach Boys really in the public consciousness since Carl died, Al was kicked out and Brian basically quit working within the group framework in the late '90s? Here's why (in roughly chronological fashion)...

Brian touring. Obviously this was a big deal. Nobody thought Brian would really end up being a road warrior. And now look!

The Stamos movie. This kept them in the popular conscience, but not necessarily in a great way. Definitely reinforced the "Brian as a zombie" from the SMiLE sessions and onward theory. But regardless, it did get some people interested in the group again surely, which can't be a bad thing.

Pet Sounds. The legend has grown and grown. You had The Pet Sounds Sessions set in 1997 and things have kept going since then. And you have Brian touring it in the early 2000s.

Sounds of Summer. This was a big, unexpected hit in 2003. The Beatles had 1 and that did great and The Beach Boys followed it with their own compilation and did big business as well. If somebody was to say this didn't matter to the Boys trajectory post '98, well....they're wrong.

Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE. 2004 was huge as far as the name Brian Wilson (and therefore The Beach Boys) was concerned. Just as Guns N' Roses' Chinese Democracy and Dr. Dre's Compton made their mark in 2008 and 2015 respectively, it was a huge story that The Beach Boys resident songwriter was finally completing and performing his lost masterpiece. And then the album. Highest Beach Boys chart placement since, what, 15 Big Ones?

Mike Love and Bruce Johnston touring. Yes it matters. But not to the extent Ronnie Raygun puts it. It's good for some spots in the local newspaper and a ticket giveaway on your local sh*t-rock station, but beyond that nothing. Really nothing. There's really no word of mouth among the world at large about Mike and Bruce Beach Boys shows.

The SMiLE Sessions. Obviously this was huge as well. It's The Beach Boys version of SMiLE and then some. There wasn't any way this wasn't gonna be a hit.

The reunion and That's Why God Made The Radio. This is where it all coalesced and I'd say The Beach Boys as an entity were at their highest recognition since...what? 1976? 1989? Regardless, this is where The Beach Boys name should be. And what happens you ask? The guy who is "keeping the band together" and "keeping it going" decided to rip the band apart, freezing out the songwriter and another founding member, along with their guitarist. So yeah, thanks Mikey boy!

If you disagree with this, fine. But if you're gonna go and do that, prove me wrong. Don't just say "hey man, Mike is why the Beach Boys still matter and fuckk you if you disagree."

I went back to that thread recently as well Big Daddy. And I'll be real with you, I have no idea if it's the same version. I only listened to what we'll call the "interview version" once and I haven't the slightest clue. I'd suppose that this is probably the same version but really knows?

I think the thing we really need to find out is why this project got scrapped and what was gonna be on it besides of course this tune.

I wonder if this version is the same version that was considered for TWGMTR

I think it would definitely make sense as Mike had brought in his already record "Daybreak Over The Ocean" and Al brought his "Waves of Love" which I'm assuming at the least would've included the (obviously) already recorded Carl vocal. However, I do remember one of Brian's musicians mentioning the sessions before we knew much more than maybe the title song of the album mentioning that Bruce had been "working with a horn player on one of his tunes" or something like that. Though obviously than doesn't discount the fact that he may have just been overdubbing onto this recording.

[The Friday Music 2007 Sampler]

There is a solo version of "She Believes In Love Again" by Bruce Johnson and I have it on an official CD apparently. So I have this CD entitled The Friday Music 2007 Sampler with some random stuff on there. Randy Bachman, The Guess Who and others. And there at track 8 is "She Believes In Love Again" by ol' Brucie. So obviously upon seeing this listed I wonder if it's actually a solo recording or just a sloppy job on info for the compilation back cover. So I listen and it is definitely a different version. I can't say if it's the same version I listened to that was included in a 2009 (?) interview with Bruce. But regardless, the track has been released on this sampler, which was probably a promotional thing. Oh yeah, the notes with track said something like "teaser track for upcoming release" or something like that. So the question is, was Bruce planning on putting out some kind of solo album or compilation or something in 2007? Or perhaps this was recorded in 2005 or early 2006 for Songs from Here & Back cuz maybe he was gonna get a solo track on their along with Brian, Mike and Al? Who knows. Thinking about it now, it is odd he didn't get a track on there. I know he's not a founding member, but no offense to David Marks, Bruce seems to be a more "core" member, as it never doubted that he would be on the 2012 version of "Do It Again" while Dave was apparently forgotten at first, and brought on later. Maybe he just had this laying around? Though that wouldn't make sense if it was being touted as part of some new upcoming release, right? I just feel like Bruce hasn't seemed to want to record and/or get his music out there since, gosh...maybe the late '80s, so I just wonder why this was ever recorded. And it's not a rush job either. It sounds like a fully thought-out recording.  It's a shame Bruce doesn't come to this board as I'm sure he would probably be interested to know that this is out there, as I assume he may not know that.

Anyways, I'd say that this version is MUCH, MUCH better than the version on the '85 album. This one is more piano based and much less '80s hair band power ballad. Is it worth more than a listen? Meh. I don't know. Give me time to decide that.

I detailed various incidents in my book (with Jon) if you look under May 1967 you’ll see that I discussed an interview he did after the European tour where he admits that he seldom socializes with the group and has little in common with them. I also noted that he took almost no part in the smiley smile sessions because “it all got too weird.” Also note that the BBs in early 68 gave faint praise/blame for bluebirds to Bruce. In  November-December 1970 I quoted the reviewer who noted that the BBs seemed quite irritated when Bruce would take a solo turn to do tears in the morning (he taped a solo tv spot on that tour as well). I presented all the various bb quotes about his departure in April 1972-many of which were passively hostile

Very interesting, but also a little weird considering it doesn't seem like anybody was twisting Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis or Al's arm to keep Bruce around. For whatever reason, they must have considered him tough to replace, considering they never really did until 1972 when they made Blondie a full member.

[Brian touring]

Hey Renaldo! "I'm not fawning over Mike Love" He's the "glue" that kept the band together??? Obviously, you still believe in The Tooth Fairy. He fired Al Jardine twice (the best voice in the group to date) and after Carl passed away. How is that keeping the group together. He fired Brian Wilson!! And, on top of all that, he thinks he is the Beach Boys. Nice slap in the face at both the Wilson brothers and Al who all were infinitely more talented than he will ever be. Get a grip, man.  :

I cant argue with your opinion. But your comment in a way makes exactly my point. The BBs still exist, and the one guy who's kept them there in the public consciousness is for low these many decades is, in fact, Mike Love. You and the knowledgeable and learned people on this site know all the back story of the group, but you exist in knowlegdable rarified air. The reason the band is still alive and still exists to the rank and file out there on Planet Earth is the one and only "Mike Love."
Credit where credit is due.
When I came aboard this project I was one of the multitude. I knew none of what is common history to those of you here. But I knew of the Beach Boys.
They were still alive in the world's view of the music scene, as a group, playing that miraculous and wonderful material. It wasn't just music on the radio, THEY WERE STILL OUT THERE. THE BEACH BOYS STILL EXISTED, STILL PLAYED, STILL LIVED AS A BAND in the public consciousness, ignorant public consciousness perhaps, but they were and even are, STILL THERE.
I was in the music and entertainment business most of my life. That is a rare and laudable accomplishment no matter how it happened. Ask yourself who was the one common denominator the the whole friggin time?
You may not like the answer but there is only one answer.

You just don't get it man. Just because he kept the "name" out there doesn't mean he did any good. Seeing him and his band on the CW channel doing his solo tunes isn't doing The Beach Boys name any good. And honestly, why are The Beach Boys really in the public consciousness since Carl died, Al was kicked out and Brian basically quit working within the group framework in the late '90s? Here's why (in roughly chronological fashion)...

Brian touring. Obviously this was a big deal. Nobody thought Brian would really end up being a road warrior. And now look!

The Stamos movie. This kept them in the popular conscience, but not necessarily in a great way. Definitely reinforced the "Brian as a zombie" from the SMiLE sessions and onward theory. But regardless, it did get some people interested in the group again surely, which can't be a bad thing.

Pet Sounds. The legend has grown and grown. You had The Pet Sounds Sessions set in 1997 and things have kept going since then. And you have Brian touring it in the early 2000s.

Sounds of Summer. This was a big, unexpected hit in 2003. The Beatles had 1 and that did great and The Beach Boys followed it with their own compilation and did big business as well. If somebody was to say this didn't matter to the Boys trajectory post '98, well....they're wrong.

Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE. 2004 was huge as far as the name Brian Wilson (and therefore The Beach Boys) was concerned. Just as Guns N' Roses' Chinese Democracy and Dr. Dre's Compton made their mark in 2008 and 2015 respectively, it was a huge story that The Beach Boys resident songwriter was finally completing and performing his lost masterpiece. And then the album. Highest Beach Boys chart placement since, what, 15 Big Ones?

Mike Love and Bruce Johnston touring. Yes it matters. But not to the extent Ronnie Raygun puts it. It's good for some spots in the local newspaper and a ticket giveaway on your local sh*t-rock station, but beyond that nothing. Really nothing. There's really no word of mouth among the world at large about Mike and Bruce Beach Boys shows.

The SMiLE Sessions. Obviously this was huge as well. It's The Beach Boys version of SMiLE and then some. There wasn't any way this wasn't gonna be a hit.

The reunion and That's Why God Made The Radio. This is where it all coalesced and I'd say The Beach Boys as an entity were at their highest recognition since...what? 1976? 1989? Regardless, this is where The Beach Boys name should be. And what happens you ask? The guy who is "keeping the band together" and "keeping it going" decided to rip the band apart, freezing out the songwriter and another founding member, along with their guitarist. So yeah, thanks Mikey boy!

So, uh, well I've got an idea. I'm not sure if our beloved mods will go for it, but here goes...

I know he's currently persona non grata on this board, but wouldn't it be interesting to invite ol' Rushton Pamplin back here. I have an odd feeling that if we told him that we and the public felt that Ronnie Reynaldo screwed up what coulda been an awesome "tell all" that he wouldn't be very happy about this and might be willing to explain how he got "bullied" himself into putting out this book that in no way represents him.

[MUSIC]

As to the "cousin of the Wilson's," we didn't sacrifice anything or avoid antagonizing Mike Love. Whether you like it or not Mike Love is the most instrumental reason that the BB survived all these years. If you love the band then the fact that they are still around is because of HIM.

Um. I think I'd credit Brian's MUSIC as the reason that The Beach Boys still matter. I think having a "Beach Boys" on the road isn't necessarily a good thing. I bet they woulda been playing much bigger venues in 2012 if Mike hadn't been out there "keeping the band around" since 1998.

Appreciate all of the analysis and background info supplied here, but the answer to the question of what Brian contributed to "Dierdre" has only one real answer:

"Not enough." 

I'll agree with you on that! 

Hey there, so most longtime Beach Boys fans probably know Bruce's story about "Deirdre." By that I mean that apparently he went to Brian with this tune hoping to turn it into a co-write but was instead disappointed when all Brian offered was lyrics like "my friend Bob, he has a job" or something like that. Now, I guess maybe I took that at face value for a bit, but now I wonder...

First off, Brian does indeed get a credit as co-writer. Bruce says Brian wrote five percent or something like that. Personally (and of course this is without evidence), I wouldn't be surprised if it was the "Good things turn bad but it's over now..." part that Brian possibly wrote the melody and/or lyrics for. My reasoning for that, is that it's his prominent part on the tune.

And lastly, while I think that Bruce didn't get exactly what he wanted for Brian for this song, it must have been substantial enough to warrant a credit, right? Or did he just want a Brian Wilson co-write in his back pocket, even if Brian barely participated? My gut tells me Brian was more involved than we may think, but possibly I'm wrong. Regardless, it's not really a great song either way. I used to like it, but I kinda got the feeling of eating too much candy when I listen to it now. Ya know, the feeling that it was just too much sweetness, and now I got a bellyache and a toothache!

Discuss friends...!

Started 2 threads by mistake! Please delete!!

The unfortunate takeaway I have from this is that Mike Love wants people to be afraid of him. There are plenty of parallels to a certain person in today's world of politics too, and I think that some powerful people (who like to make less powerful people fear them) admire that trait in other powerful people too. 

Interesting thoughts Century.

EDIT: Deleted stupid rest of post.

In the early 80's I produced some sessions at Tom Murphy's TRACK RECORD on Melrose Ave. I remember seeing a box of 2" tape, with Dennis Wilson/Christine McVie written on its spine, on the shelf in the control room. I asked Tom about it. He told me that Dennis and Christine had been recording there.

Well then, that's pretty awesome! Thank you very much for that info SBonilla!

I wonder what's the chances are that we ever hear it. I suppose really it might be up to Christine, and if she wanted it released, I'm sure she could work something out with Denny's estate.

[Tornado]

It would be interesting to know what Dennis and Gregg's arrangement was. It may be that Gregg was part of Dennis's deal and that Gregg would have received a producer credit for any recordings delivered to the label, whether he had a direct hand in the production , or not.
It seems that Dennis took care of Gregg over the years, with regard to co-writing and co-production credits. It might have been that their creative relationship was based on a gentleman's agreement.

I can't identify Jakobson's creative stamp on any of the songs where he is credited as a co-writer or co-producer.

Well, it's reportedly Gregg's voice heard saying "Rollin'" at the start of "Time For Bed". And, per David Leaf's article in Issue 3 of his Pet Sounds fanzine, Gregg was present in a co-producer capacity for the "He's A Bum" vocal session. Looking at the timeline on Bellagio (compiled from my collection of AFM contracts), it's clear that with one exception (that being "I Love You"), all of the Jakobson sessions occurred prior to the start of the Muñoz sessions - and Gregg has stated that he pretty much stopped working with Dennis at a certain point. From this, we can conclude that Dennis invited Carli to co-produce his next album with him AFTER the end of the Jakobson era, and if he did so without mentioning that he also intended to use the stuff he and Gregg had co-produced, then that would explain why Carli would be unaware of Gregg's status as Dennis' co-producer. It's also highly possible that Dennis intended his co-productions with Gregg (however unfinished they may have been at the time) for his SECOND solo album, and intended his collaborations with Carli to be for his THIRD solo album (by this time, he was telling people that he had actually started his third).

Speaking of a "third" Denny solo album, whatever happened to the possible release of an album called Tornado that Jim Guercio was talking about? It was supposed to be a follow up to the reissue of Pacific Ocean Blue and was even mentioned in Mark Dillon's 2012 Beach Boys book (can't remember the name) but nothing has ever been said about it since if I'm correct. While many in the Beach Boys fan community are clamoring for a release of early '70s Denny material, I personally think something that grabbed the rest of the good stuff from 1975 thru 1978, along with whatever is useable from 1979 thru 1982 (maybe "Labor Day" and also some of those supposed collaborations with Christine McVie*).



*Do we actually have any proof Denny and Christine ever did any real serious recording together? I can't imagine it, but as a major fan of both artists it would be amazing to hear.

[California Feeling 2]

I don't even think this thing is available unfortunately.

Available here:

http://www.foothillrecords.com/msmusic.html

I see some of the other Kalinich stuff is available there, but I don't see California Feeling 2 on there.