i would love to see how BB Fandom reacts to John Stamos being the the driving force of getting Feel Flows released.

Brian was exhibiting self-destructive behavior after Landy left the first time. There were a series of people in his life keeping him away from that from time to time (Marilyn, Stan & Rocky, Carolyn Williams, etc.). Based on the little info we have from this period, I don't think it would be fair to blame Carolyn for the kinds of things that Brian had been doing prior to and during their relationship. For all we know, she helped to keep the bad behavior from getting worse, who knows? It's not like individuals can control others - with the exception of someone like Landy. Do we blame Shawn Love for Dennis' behavior?

While I rarely listen to it these days, I do think MIU is a pretty good record. I think of it like a Beach Boys version of the non-disco ABBA/Bee Gees late '70s kind of semi-Yacht Rock sound. Very pleasant and breezy.

I too don't get the "Light Album is better than MIU" angle either. MIU and Love You are more similar than MIU and LA in my opinion. Love You is pure BW; MIU seems to come from the same starting point, but the production is super cleaned up and Mike and Al got way more involved. Either way, Brian is all over MIU but really not present on LA. And MIU has a lot of those kind of catchy BW songs that he can knock out in his sleep.

That said, "My Diane" is really the only GREAT song on there. I really do like "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", "Matchpoint", and yeh ... "Hey Little Tomboy" is a really good melody and track. But it's dragged down with some of the Al Jardine-lead tracks - the '50s covers are boring, and "Winds of Change" is super lame and sounds nothing like the BB. "Belles of Paris" is not good either. Much of the record like "Pitter Patter" is catchy but veers into the area of Celebration ... that second Celebration record from 1978 is actually very similar to MIU. In fact, I wish the Beach Boys included "Go and Get That Girl" on MIU, because that's a classic, and would have given another much-needed Carl vocal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu-D9A1zQhU

A couple things would have brought MIU into an area that made it a more appropriate follow-up to Love You without losing the kind of MIU/Yacht Rock vibe: lost the super high-gloss production, and maybe a track list like this:

1 She's Got Rhythm
2 Come Go With Me
3 Hey Little Tomboy
4 Kona Coast
5 Sea Cruise
6 Wontcha Come Out Tonight

7 Sweet Sunday Kinda Love
8 How's About A Little Bit of Your Sweet Lovin'
9 Pitter Patter
10 Go And Get That Girl
11 My Diane
12 Matchpoint of Our Love

"at his own request"

Summary:

1. FF was completed and ready for release, the label and BRI are behind it. All on board.

2. Some member(s) of the group decided they don’t actually want to put it out yet for some unknown reason.

3. As it’s looking less and less likely that it will be released in 2020, “Plan B” seems to be in the works - this involves putting something together to cover the the tracks subject to 2020 copyright protection. As several of us noted many times in this thread - this potentially changes what FF is or will be, thus potentially jeopardizing it’s viability and future existence.

Pet Sounds, BWPS, Sunflower, Wild Honey, Surf’s Up, etc all deserve top 500 ranking...

Personally, Hums of the Lovin Spoonful and Warren Zevon’s Excitable Boy or self-titled album are glaring omissions.

Most glaring omission to me is If You Can Believe Your Eyes and Ears by the Mamas & Papas.

Forever Changes at 180? No respect for this list, really. Leonard Cohen way down there too ...

Never been a fan of Rolling Stone or the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame, or any of these kind of elitist protectors of the boring old guard ... now with an apparent Pitchfork-influenced pandering. Rolling Stone will never admit that More of the Monkees is better than any Beatles record. The fact that they list an album (Please Please Me) at number 39 in one installment, then omit it from the entire top 500 in the next shows how laughable the rankings are.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/10-classic-albums-rolling-stone-originally-panned-101316/jimi-hendrix-are-you-experienced-1967-101413/

I don't think Mike has ever been overly motivated by logic or consistency. I mean, why sue over the newspaper Smile CD? Why hold up the Pet Sounds boxed set? Why end the reunion? The reasons all shift and waver, and seem to be based on his own moods and internal band politics at the time. For instance, the 50th anniversary gave cover for the Smile sessions release. And I seem to recall Made in California was held up as well.

Do we know why MIC was help up? I seem to recall Brian vetoing the potential inclusion of "Carry Me Home" and "Stevie", right? Did Mike veto any? AGD or someone has claimed that Mike pushed for *more* Dennis tracks. But I assume tracklist issues would be fairly quick to sort out.

My initial thought (way, way back in this thread) for the reason that FF had been delayed was that Mike was jealous b/c this set was going to further expose DW as the second best songwriter in the band, and probably shower a lot of praise and attention his way.   (I'm not a Mike basher, btw.  I feel he deserves some of it, but not all.)   Until I hear a confirmed reason, I'm sticking with that initial hunch, even though I thought someone said way back it was a dispute over songwriting credits maybe?  IDK.  I check this thread every day, several times in fact, but it is hard to keep it all straight.  

I think Made in California would not have had the tracklist it did if this were the case tbh. There was a LOT of Dennis on there, and that was a more major release. As much as Dennis and Mike had their issues, I think the FF release actually would semi-debunk the common myth/narrative about Mike. That is to say, "All I Wanna Do", "Big Sur", "Cool Cool Water", "Add Some Music", "Sound of Free", "Don't Go Near the Water", etc ... cast him in a good light and actually shows he was hip/involved in the music, not opposing it. This is to say, while this period may not be his favorite or particularly notable to him, I don't really think he would take issue with the material or track list.

I'll begin:

Is Mike Love really the reason the set is being blocked? Can one man block it all? Is he that powerful? Is he a hero or villain? My opinion: probably not, at least not solely.

Let me put this question forth:

Do you think it seems out of character for Mike to use something valuable as a pawn if he thinks he could extract a desired result out of a situation? In particular, a result that he thinks may eventually lead to some sort of positive reevaluation for him as an artist by critics?

Or does Mike seem like a guy who would never do such a thing?

In my opinion, there's a few things that Mike would like more than for a media narrative to be created, with modern day results to back it up, that Brian needs Mike in order to write a hit song. And for the world to know that, for that to be established in stone.

And my theory is that in the possible event that it takes more than just Mike in order to block a release, do you think it is out of the realm of possibility that the estate of Carl Wilson would perhaps go along with such a block, if Mike spun things in a "this will help bring the family back together, and help bring closure to any feuding and dissension between the camps" type of manner?

If anything, Carl Wilson was a man who tried to make peace, who found a way to bridge different parties together, and kept the band and family together. He had a big weight upon his shoulders. I could see his kids thinking, if such an idea was proposed to them, that this would be a continuation of something that their father would have wanted. For Brian and Mike to essentially "kiss and make up" as they approach their twilight years. I can't imagine there are many people in the family who are happy with any type of estrangement between different camps. It's sad no matter how you look at it.

So anyway, that's my theory. I welcome people to poke holes in it but it seems fairly logical and airtight to me. I have no way of knowing if this is the case, but like I said I think it checks all the boxes. On top of everything, Mike would get to deeply piss off Melinda and "put her in her place" if such a reunion happened. And I think he would salivate at that in and of itself.

Do *I* think it's out of character? No I don't. Doesn't mean I think he's the sole reason for the holdup, nor do I think he could hold it up by himself (there doesn't seem to be clarity on this possibility anyway). If it's him, I think it's more likely he doesn't want a major release to happen until he's touring, but who knows.

Speculating about when and why Carl's sons would go with Mike is an area I don't really think I have any business getting into. I don't know those guys, but I assume they are men of their own minds, and respect the work of their dad, and make decisions with that respect.

I think the idea that Mike is holding it up as leverage for 60th plans is interesting, but it's a pretty big leap of faith. I would assume the actual reasoning is more basic and mundane (i.e., a couple members agreeing it's not a good time to release something because they want to get out and promote it).

The biggest issue I have - which I've brought up before - is that *not* releasing FF this year threatens/compromises the potential future release of FF.

Whilst I am slightly reluctant to post this - it's basic common sense that if 1,400 people pay $100 each for a physical box set, that does not amount to $140,000 in profit, as has been assumed, implied or inferred by some here. - There's a difference between profit and revenue, and there's a difference between wholesale and retail. Both of those differences work against that kind of result that is suggested.

And we have been told, and I think should accept, that this whole thing isn't really about economics anyway. These guys wouldn't notice the difference in their bank balances as a result of whether or not this is released. And it's BRI, not any label causing the hold up here.

Therefore it is support of a kind other than financial that is the matter at stake here, and that will, if anything will, turn the tide.

As Forrest Gump would say "that's all I have to say about that".

I’m sure they will sell significantly more than 1400 units (I would assume at least 10x that) of the box if it’s released. But I also assume that a good chunk of those who signed the petition will not buy it.

I should apologize for being a jackass earlier. I'm dealing with challenges of these times the same way a lot of us likely are -- that is, not well at all.

I appreciate this band and care about it deeply. I believe in supporting its members. Hell, I even bought a physical copy of "Unleash the Love," if it makes a difference to Mike.

But I also find this kind of inter-band drama -- still -- around releases of music recorded a half-century ago profoundly dispiriting. Everyone here is grousing at one another because we're not able to do the one thing we _all_ want to do, which is buy the frigging boxed set already.

Bless you all and love and mercy.

Kudos to you and this post - I’m getting too hotheaded in here. But I’d like to see us all do better.

If this happens, it will possibly change what is currently completed as FF. Whatever project Capitol is apparently eager to release will potentially morph into a different project or projects. Those who think the tangent regarding sales of digital downloads factoring into this discussion are dismissing relevant ideas out of hand.

You had mentioned pages back that the main reason why the topic of streaming is particularly important is because if “everyone” streams FFs then future lavish boxsets will be put in jeopardy. It was basically our point that the boxset is already guaranteed to make $140,000 (per the petition - thus “everyone” isn’t going to stream it) and that number skyrockets by who knows how many magnitudes when/if an actual marketing campaign starts. Also, at the moment we can still choose to buy or stream a plethora of previous archival releases - thus your admitted main topic of supporting an archival release to support future projects doesn’t just encompass FFs but instead an entire broad range of archival releases that are actually available to be purchased right now (unlike FFs). So in that context, yes I still completely stand by my point that the topic you found most relevant regarding streaming deserves its own thread because the topic has (and deserves) the potential to expand into a much broader conversation that isn’t limited to the confines of the Feel Flows boxset.

Now, if we want to move the goalposts and say that we should be discussing the unfortunate alternatives if FFs does not get released before December 31, 2020 then I am all for that...because I think people should realize why we are trying to focus our efforts on getting this thing released: it is my understanding that compiling and creating Feel Flows has already been paid for by BRI. If a lot of the contents of this set get released via a copyright dump, then yes the project would likely have to change. But how likely is BRI going to want to fund a new/different product if the one they previously funded got stuck in some non-release limbo that ended in a copyright dump?

1- I introduced a series of hypotheticals to illustrate the validity of the streaming vs buying idea being a relevant, on topic point.

2- I didn’t introduce that point, Alan Boyd did in 2018. I was noting it is relevant to the FF discussion.

3- signatures don’t equal sales, especially when we have posters suggesting that paying for a streaming subscription counts as supporting archive releases.

4- I’m not interested in a streaming thread. I’m interested in how it’s relevant to archive releases and this FF topic.

5- the policing of the thread is the main reason this tangent is going on so long. Just let the convos flow, it keeps the thread active and moving.

Also if Mike Love is the holdup - all the posts about how terrible Mike Love is and how wrong his decision is are certainly not gonna help him change his mind and sign off on the release. If you wanna talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

If Mike based his voting decision on the negativity from the fanbase we would never have gotten any boxsets ever.

Bingo. And eventually a number of projects that were originally blocked/delayed were released later on.

But what we don't need in a thread like this--one that has already been heavily targeted for distraction and hijacking--is someone going off into several tangents simultaneously in the same message/message string. You're a very smart guy, Donny, but IMO you are wasting our time by attempting to somehow go beyond the obvious and verifiable facts about potentially fluctuating economic considerations. When you cross the line into speculation about what happens if FEEL FLOWS doesn't appear, you risk becoming wonky and tedious, just as I risk being tedious and combative by taking after you-know-who and calling for the track listing of FEEL FLOWS to be leaked.

You can't really go any further with this line of reasoning than to say "some factors change"...unless you've also got a crystal ball next to your laptop that you're not telling us about.

What matters to most of the folks in this thread is doing what they can to publicize and expand support for a set whose existence has been confirmed and has been described as a game-changer by Howie. Part of the goal of creating that support is to get as much actual information out into the zeitgeist as possible. Part of that actual information (wait for it) is for us to know exactly what was planned to be in the FEEL FLOWS project.

Of course the next counter-argument will be that if that happens, that will cause everyone to circle the wagons. Which brings us back to the circular firing squad--capable of rearing its head pretty much whenever it decides to do so. No, the more people know about what they will be missing, the more the clamor for the set will grow.

BTW, the subject matter in that "other" FEEL FLOWS thread you are trying to start belongs in this discussion, and has been covered in this thread previously. To answer your question: Mike was able to block things by himself in the past, so we have to assume that given how he has consolidated power in the years since Carl's passing, it is highly likely that he can do so again.

CD's post on page 65 takes an intriguing (and rather harrowing) turn in expanding my original idea here that Mike was blocking the release to get something he wanted. I think that topic needs to be explored further, if people can stomach some of the implications within it.

No crystal ball, but we have enough information at this point to come to our own conclusions. And the writing is in the wall, and any discussion about the the potential future release of FF is gonna have to include ...  you know, the future ... which is likely to be different than today.

It’s September. We have Mike’s interview. We have public comments from Howie and Jon.

They are gonna probably need to release a bunch of live recordings end of year, along with “Seasons in the Sun”, “Big Sur”, and “My Solution”, key unreleased tracks. If this happens, it will possibly change what is currently completed as FF. Whatever project Capitol is apparently eager to release will potentially morph into a different project or projects. Those who think the tangent regarding sales of digital downloads factoring into this discussion are dismissing relevant ideas out of hand. And without the tangents and speculations, this thread is boring as hell too.

I'll begin:

Is Mike Love really the reason the set is being blocked? Can one man block it all? Is he that powerful? Is he a hero or villain? My opinion: probably not, at least not solely.

Does AGD have the whole scoop, and he is just being very quiet? Or is he cast out of the inner circle, not saying a word because he doesn't want to reveal HE KNOWS NOTHING. My opinion: "no one knows anything, so it could be anything." [most controversial response I could think of]

Here is the Smiley Smile thread you've all waited for -

This thread will be free from any sense of law and order (within board rules). A place where posters are free to post wild and freely regarding anything that comes into their minds about Feel Flows, right or wrong good or bad glad or sad.

Have at it and don't forget to HAVE A GREAT DAY too.

Fan support for buying a physical release was asked for AND received, and digital sales or projected sales in general being a factor in this set's release getting stalled was ruled out.

Is there anything else pertinent to discuss about a series of posts from 2018? Donny? Anyone? No one is covering anything up, and the implication of trying to bury it in light of what happened and the information provided a few days ago in reply to that nonsense is insulting and uncalled for, Donny. It is and always has been there for all to see. But exactly what was mentioned and requested in 2018 has been delivered by the fans over and over again regarding this specific Feel Flows set. Fans and the label want it, fans will buy the physical copy of it if and when it gets a release. It's that simple. Apart from literally kicking a dead horse over and over again for whatever reasons there are, what was asked for back then was delivered and continues to be delivered - The petition and this thread are the proof. The fans are waiting to buy.  

And this is and always will be an open forum. That's why members can discuss what they want, and other members can reply in return. No one is shutting anything down that doesn't cross a line. No one is challenging or threatening anyone in private messages. Members can suggest whatever they want in terms of the direction of a discussion and start a new topic anytime they want.

I already started a separate thread, and if that's not up to par, then someone or anyone feel free to start another.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27337.msg665187/topicseen.html#msg665187

It's a straw man, Craig. The straw man is persistently framing the discussion about streaming as it relates to archive releases/FF as posters indicating that this is the reason for the holdup. There are now several examples of this. Please quote where any poster said that they think the holdup for FF is related to the streaming ideas brought up. Yet there are several quotes of posters re-framing posts to suggest that.

I have no dog in this fight. I have no BB politics. If you can clarify exactly what is "insulting and uncalled for", please do so.

I'll repeat again what I just posted. What Alan said was needed in that post from 2018 is exactly what fans have been doing regarding this set: Showing support. More vocal and public support than I can remember in recent years for a single project from the Beach Boys. Support that includes a petition expressly advocating for a release of this set.

I don't know how much more support would be needed before the situation is put on the table and seen for exactly what it is: Fans supporting this Feel Flows release and saying they will buy it when it comes out. Just please, please put it out and we will buy it.

I don't know what else can be said beyond that. The insulting and uncalled for aspect was trying to suggest people don't want to discuss what happened in 2018 after it was discussed thoroughly, responded to thoroughly, and the attempts made to dredge it up and distort it into something it was not were countered with the facts of what really happened. No one is trying to hide or duck anything regarding that, but it was answered, the requests made in that 2018 exchange are being delivered as we speak by most of the fan base (at least here), and I don't know what else could be added or what more could be brought up when it's all there and responded to at this point.

okay NOW I WILL GO OFF TOPIC, and also simply GO OFF:

Please quote instead of paraphrasing with inaccurate interpretations:

"I haven't seen a single post in which anyone has indicated they think the non-release is due to streaming concerns. This is a straw man - and I'm not sure why. I can only guess that people don't want to discuss that Alan Boyd post because of the drama surrounding how it came to be in the first place, and the drama surrounding how it was introduced in this thread."

There is nothing "insulting" nor "uncalled for" in my comments. I was simply stating that I'm trying to discuss Boyd's points (which I feel are relevant to this discussion overall) there without bringing in all the dirt of the past, and others probably don't want to discuss this because of all the political baggage that comes with the way the topic was introduced here. This was an innocent remark, not a jab.

You're a mod, and you need to do better and remain unbiased, not misrepresent posts. I am not in cahoots with AGD or filledpage or whoever these people are. I don't even get along with AGD.

Streaming vs purchasing as it relates to archive releases, and as it relates to Feel Flows. It's not that riveting of a topic. It's a tangent, like many in this thread. Still on topic. And all this talk is because you guys are coming in saying what we should be talking about instead of just letting people talk about it. Call it policing, call it whatever you want. Posters respect you as you seem to have some kind of lead on inside info (some of which contradicts information I have heard elsewhere), so they are listening and responding to you. I say LET THE FEEL FLOWS THREAD FLOW FREELY AND LET US FEEL HOWEVER IT IS WE WANT TO FLOW

If somebody on the inside, whose word you fully trusted and believed to be accurate, came on here to state unequivocally that streaming is a non-issue, would that change your mind in wanting to discuss it in this thread? I truly don't mean to be annoying or pestering, I'm just trying to see where you're coming from here.

As I said before, it's cart-before-the-horse stuff to discuss what will happen with "Feel Flows" once it's released. And *that* is the perfect reason to start another thread to talk about it (and to talk about streaming in general). To fixate on the streaming issue *right now and in this thread* is veering into "filledeplage" levels of ignoring the main thrust of the discussion to fixate on something else.

Please stop with the references to old posters I have no affiliation or interaction with, or even familiarity with.

Even if it is, so what if it's cart before the horse? Why can't that be discussed? Why all the talk about what should and should not be discussed in this thread? Really bizarre. Again, if your agenda is to soley have a thread that is rallying for FF, *that* is what should be separate. Let us discuss whatever as it relates to FF here. seriously

Streaming vs purchasing as it relates to archive releases, and as it relates to Feel Flows. It's not that riveting of a topic. It's a tangent, like many in this thread. Still on topic. And all this talk is because you guys are coming in saying what we should be talking about instead of just letting people talk about it. Call it policing, call it whatever you want. Posters respect you as you seem to have some kind of lead on inside info (some of which contradicts information I have heard elsewhere), so they are listening and responding to you. I say LET THE FEEL FLOWS THREAD FLOW FREELY AND LET US FEEL HOWEVER IT IS WE WANT TO FLOW

If somebody on the inside, whose word you fully trusted and believed to be accurate, came on here to state unequivocally that streaming is a non-issue, would that change your mind in wanting to discuss it in this thread? I truly don't mean to be annoying or pestering, I'm just trying to see where you're coming from here.

What are you talking about? I never said that I think streaming is an issue related to the holdup of FF. That is being misrepresented, though it's quite clear why you might feel that way, as several posters are trying to re-frame what I wrote to suggest that.

Fan support for buying a physical release was asked for AND received, and digital sales or projected sales in general being a factor in this set's release getting stalled was ruled out.

Is there anything else pertinent to discuss about a series of posts from 2018? Donny? Anyone? No one is covering anything up, and the implication of trying to bury it in light of what happened and the information provided a few days ago in reply to that nonsense is insulting and uncalled for, Donny. It is and always has been there for all to see. But exactly what was mentioned and requested in 2018 has been delivered by the fans over and over again regarding this specific Feel Flows set. Fans and the label want it, fans will buy the physical copy of it if and when it gets a release. It's that simple. Apart from literally kicking a dead horse over and over again for whatever reasons there are, what was asked for back then was delivered and continues to be delivered - The petition and this thread are the proof. The fans are waiting to buy.  

And this is and always will be an open forum. That's why members can discuss what they want, and other members can reply in return. No one is shutting anything down that doesn't cross a line. No one is challenging or threatening anyone in private messages. Members can suggest whatever they want in terms of the direction of a discussion and start a new topic anytime they want.

I already started a separate thread, and if that's not up to par, then someone or anyone feel free to start another.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27337.msg665187/topicseen.html#msg665187

It's a straw man, Craig. The straw man is persistently framing the discussion about streaming as it relates to archive releases/FF as posters indicating that this is the reason for the holdup. There are now several examples of this. Please quote where any poster said that they think the holdup for FF is related to the streaming ideas brought up. Yet there are several quotes of posters re-framing posts to suggest that.

I have no dog in this fight. I have no BB politics. If you can clarify exactly what is "insulting and uncalled for", please do so.

I haven't seen a single post in which anyone has indicated they think the non-release is due to streaming concerns. This is a straw man - and I'm not sure why. I can only guess that people don't want to discuss that Alan Boyd post because of the drama surrounding how it came to be in the first place, and the drama surrounding how it was introducted in this thread.

Also if Mike Love is the holdup - all the posts about how terrible Mike Love is and how wrong his decision is are certainly not gonna help him change his mind and sign off on the release. If you wanna talk about shooting yourself in the foot. If the only function of this thread is to rally to get the thing released, as some seem to be suggesting.

I say we discuss it all in this thread - unfiltered. That's what makes these discussions engaging. I don't want censorship or policing of the thread.

There's no censorship here. And "policing of threads" is up to the moderators/owners of a board. Threads get split (and combined) ALL THE TIME.

I've said numerous times now that the streaming/industry issue is interesting and worth discussing. It hurts NOTHING and NO ONE to put that all in a separate thread. It actually focuses and enhances *both* threads/discussions. If *that's* not good enough for you, then you're the one being difficult.

The problem with burning time in this thread talking about this fetish of obsessing about the streaming debate is that it ends up EXACTLY LIKE THIS DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW. We end up talking about what we're talking about, and then we talk about *that*, and then we talk about whether we should be talking about talking about something.

I would implore the mods to have a separate thread for the streaming vs. purchase debate (a thread which I'll be happy to participate in!), and direct folks here to that thread.

Streaming vs purchasing as it relates to archive releases, and as it relates to Feel Flows. It's not that riveting of a topic. It's a tangent, like many in this thread. Still on topic. And all this talk is because you guys are coming in saying what we should be talking about instead of just letting people talk about it. Call it policing, call it whatever you want. Posters respect you as you seem to have some kind of lead on inside info (some of which contradicts information I have heard elsewhere), so they are listening and responding to you. I say LET THE FEEL FLOWS THREAD FLOW FREELY AND LET US FEEL HOWEVER IT IS WE WANT TO FLOW

The conversation regarding Alan Boyd's comments surrounding the 1968 set are relevant to this discussion IMO. And I hope we can discuss these things with nuance. I would even argue the "GET FEEL FLOWS RELEASED" petition-type/rallying cry is the topic that should be in it's own thread. I was under the impression this thread was discussion about the FF box in general. Some are narrowing in on a very particular aspect of the conversation; others are introducing broader concepts and discussing them.

If you would argue that the topic about ways to help release Feel Flows in the thread titled Feel Flows should have its own thread, then certainly you can see the logic in moving a topic about streaming archival releases to another thread?

When this thread was created we were under the impression that we would actually be getting the set. At the moment, per Jon Stebbins ("It's not looking great") to Howie's most recent ""if" the project gets going", we know that there is a good chance this set may not come out at all. Thus at the moment I think the more pressing topic very much related to the topic Feel Flows is the actual release of Feel Flows. Not some hypothetical that involves Feel Flows somehow mostly getting streamed and thus possibly extinguishing a lavish boxset for the 1976 era (which, hate to say, if SS/WildHoney/Friends/2020 didn't get lavish boxsets I highly doubt that Love You will either).

Again,

Perhaps the topic does deserve its own thread - mostly because it's a big enough topic to warrant it's own thread, but also because regardless of the hypothetical connection the current topic has with Feel Flows, it's somewhat irrelevant to talk about the possible sales of a boxset that isn't even currently scheduled to be on sale at all.

I personally think all of the FF stuff should stay here - it's a more engaging, long winding strange trip that way. I'm saying if one is to argue keeping things on-topic - and that topic is rallying for the release - then THAT should be separated out.

What I'm saying is that this is the catch-all FF thread. And if someone wants to narrow that down - branch that one out. Rather than telling others to branch out relevant sub-topics in the catch-all thread.

What if sales numbers are important to BRI members making these decisions? What if certain members don't want to release sets unless they meet certain sales criteria, and would prefer more unpopular releases to remain obscure?  

TWGMTR hit #3 (a very high mark for a bunch of 70 year old dudes making a record), yet Mike still found a way to spin that as a negative. Pet Sounds is widely regarded as one of the most incredible pieces of musical art to come out of the 20th century, yet he had the gall to jaw-droppingly say in a recent-ish interview something to the effect that the Pet Sounds album should have had him writing the lyrics, and then it really could have been next level.

Bottom line is that those at BRI (I'm thinking of one dude, mainly) have decades-long personal vendettas and quests for power/respect that trump (pardon the expression) anything that could positively thought of as "certain sales criteria" by most rationally-thinking individuals.

How about responding to the main point of my post, instead of grabbing a random hypothetical example and using it as a gotcha?

But you have proved my point - that it's ripe for discussion. It's an interesting angle. It's a more compelling conversation when these angles are not suppressed in the name of turning this thread into what is essentially a boring petition.

I'm of the belief that some people are legitimately "in the know" about the reasons for the set's holdup - at least this has been hinted to by some posts indicating certainty (not hunches) of what's *not* causing the holdup. I don't think anyone would allude to things like that with certainty unless they had some certainty.

So I concur that streaming type issues should be taken off the table for this thread - I too would hate to give anyone who actually desires the set to NOT be released any shot in the arm to their heinous desires by us fans getting this thread bogged down on what appears to be an irrelevant tangent.

(Not that the streaming topic isn't interesting in and of itself, but yeah if it's not what's happening here, then it just becomes a distraction). If I knew what I as a fan could do to help the situation, I'd do it in a heartbeat (and I wish there was a pamphlet that concerned fans could receive that would outline steps of what we can do - or can avoid doing - to perhaps help even the tiniest bit to move the dial on FF), but I feel pretty confident that talking about what it seems is *not* the reason is counterproductive in this thread, since distractions are counterproductive, IMHO. I say all of that respectfully.

My hunch (and that's all it is, is a strong hunch) is that Mike Love and his antics in some form are behind this state we're in. To think otherwise is to ignore some circumstantial evidence, plus ignore some past similar holdups, and think that all of that is just mere coincidence - do some people think that?  

I haven't seen a single post in which anyone has indicated they think the non-release is due to streaming concerns. This is a straw man - and I'm not sure why. I can only guess that people don't want to discuss that Alan Boyd post because of the drama surrounding how it came to be in the first place, and the drama surrounding how it was introducted in this thread.

Also if Mike Love is the holdup - all the posts about how terrible Mike Love is and how wrong his decision is are certainly not gonna help him change his mind and sign off on the release. If you wanna talk about shooting yourself in the foot. If the only function of this thread is to rally to get the thing released, as some seem to be suggesting.

I say we discuss it all in this thread - unfiltered. That's what makes these discussions engaging. I don't want censorship or policing of the thread.

[I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit.]

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

So this thread can only discuss the non-release of Feel Flows? And cannot include other relevant conversations and ideas? Such as Feel Flows being a copyright-oriented project, and the post from Alan Boyd about supporting such releases by purchasing vs. streaming? And how this may relate to future releases - which does in fact include Feel Flows?

I'm not the moderator, so I can't answer that. If "Feel Flows" were announced for release, then the question of HOW to purchase it or listen to it would seem more worth discussing *right now*. But right now we're trying to convince them to release the set, so getting bogged down in pages of trying to guilt one or two fans for streaming music seems counterproductive.

The stuff you're talking about isn't any more germane to "Feel Flows" than the myriad of other music industry issues.

Discussing purchasing vs. streaming is an interesting topic (I have plenty of thoughts myself), so regardless of what's "allowed", I think it would make sense to start another thread, because right now we're talking about THAT instead of talking about why the set should be released.

It's ridiculous in my view to let a few people's fixation on this "streaming isn't supporting the artists" issues bog down a thread that really needs to focus on lobbying for the release of the set.

Well you keep moving the target.

I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit.

It's particularly valid in the scenario in which FF is released as a deluxe box set but maybe doesn't sell as much as expected because everyone is streaming it. Then maybe we don't get another lavish set, and just get basic dumps with bare minimum. I am personally most looking forward to a 1976-era set tbh. And I would wish that that particular set is a multi-disc physical box, vinyl, etc.

So what is the big conspiracy here? I don't see how a thread that becomes a circle jerk of "I really want FF to come out!" is really any more helpful than an active conversation with a natural flow. What exactly, in your opinion, should people be discussing here?

The point in bold:

In this specific case, what is still being lost sometimes in the discussion is that the Feel Flows set was approved, given the green light, worked on, completed, and is now sitting that way without a projected release date. Obviously if it got that far in the process, the possible lack of sales and support was not an issue, the possible lack of support and sales due to digital streaming isn't an issue, and currently those issues are not holding up the set. We've been told by people directly involved that the *label wants it*.

So any issues going back to 2018 don't seem to have been an issue here if the set was originally approved, the project was completed, and the label wants it. And we're told the issues from 2018 that were resurrected through whatever ulterior motives were at play had nothing to do with this. Does anything more need to be said?

Of course it's important for fans to support and buy such material - You currently have 1,400 of them on a petition saying they'd support it and buy it, and you have people here posting repeatedly that they support and buy it.

I guess I don't understand why a series of posts from 2018 continues to be an issue when all of the support and willingness to buy this set has been demonstrated over and over again, and all the names on that petition and writing their thoughts here back it up.

If more voices in support of this are needed, then take it to other media outlets beyond the fan base. It was great to see Joel give it a good write-up in his publication. The fan base is already on board. We've been repeatedly saying we're on board for weeks. The petition is still getting signatures saying "we're on board".

I don't think the issue is any lack of fan support at this point. I don't think it ever was to be honest, minus those stunts pulled earlier this week trying and failing to suggest otherwise. The fans, the label, and if social media is any indication, several principles directly involved are on board with this set.

I think most people who know about the existence of this completed set have already signed the petition, or posted here in support. The fans are speaking loudly. If that's not enough, get it into the hands of the online music press.

Regarding streaming versus physical product, I wrote some of my thoughts in a separate topic. Anyone is welcome to do the same. I don't think, in my own personal opinion, that trying to get into the feasibility of streaming versus physical product carries much weight in 2020 especially when that delivery system has been in place now for years. The only solution to this dilemma would be to restrict all streaming purchases and limit releases to only physical product, and I think that wouldn't make sense in the simplest business terms to wipe out all of that potential revenue over aesthetics. People who want the physical product will buy it, people who do not buy physical product will pay to stream it. As long as the music gets out there to people who want it, and revenue is collected from doing it, they can coexist. And if the system in place is the issue, where new releases are available to stream, it's an issue far beyond the fans' reach to where the labels would have to be convinced to cut off streaming for their artists. I really can't see anything like that with big labels and major artists involved happening.

Most of us (aside from the folks who kind of wander into the thread and have not read through it all) are in agreement that there does not seem to be any indication that there are label/financial issues with the lack of release of the completed project. I just don't see why this discussion has to be so black & white, and almost political -in terms of factions of the group's fans.

The conversation regarding Alan Boyd's comments surrounding the 1968 set are relevant to this discussion IMO. And I hope we can discuss these things with nuance. I would even argue the "GET FEEL FLOWS RELEASED" petition-type/rallying cry is the topic that should be in it's own thread. I was under the impression this thread was discussion about the FF box in general. Some are narrowing in on a very particular aspect of the conversation; others are introducing broader concepts and discussing them.

It's relevant because posters like Wirestone are suggesting that paying for a streaming service supports the set. And it's relevant because Alan Boyd's comments in 2018 are likely just as applicable right now as they were then. And in the event that FF is not released this year - it will be relevant again in 2021 in the event that FF is re-assessed for the market at that time.

If we get a copyright dump this year that is similar to last year - then we have two years in a row that there was not really a real "project" released. Things change at labels. Howie said he saved the thing twice. The idea that getting these kinds of releases are an uphill battle is ripe for discussion. The idea that what we know now is now how it is tomorrow is ripe for discussion.

The bolded section of my post: "I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit."

^ extremely relevant to this topic. These sets do not fund themselves. They are funded 100% on the future prospects for profitability. It has apparently been determined that the $$$ invested in FF will return profit at this point in time. Whether that determination changes next year or the year after (in the event of a non-release of FF this year) is open for discussion.

What if sales numbers are important to BRI members making these decisions? What if certain members don't want to release sets unless they meet certain sales criteria, and would prefer more unpopular releases to remain obscure? What if larger sales numbers for archive sets would encourage these members to reconsider? All thoughts and ideas that are relevant.

There's talk about "legacy" on these boards. This is the group's legacy. Whether we like it or not, the current members are the ones who get to decide how they want it to be presented. It's lame if any of them signed off, then pulled out. It would be nice if Dennis' family had a voice, but history is what it is.