The Smiley Smile Message Board

So, let us suppose for a moment that Brian and the Boys delivered a Grand Slam instead of a bunt in 1967.
SMILE came out as planned and we never had SMILEY SMILE.

What songs, if any, would you miss having in the catalog?

I'd miss "She's Going Bald".

All of them. I'd miss the Smiley version of Wonderful the least, because the Smile version of that is still great, but everything else on that album -- Little Pad, She's Going Bald, the Smiley version of Wind Chimes (which is infinitely superior to the Smile one), Whistle In, Fall Breaks... it's an absolutely gorgeous album from beginning to end.

What makes you think those songs wouldn't have been released? After all, we didn't have a Smile, but we got Heroes & Villains, Wonderful, etc. Chances are, those tunes would have been out on a different album.

‍

That's where I'm coming from.  If they didn't have to scrape together a "bunt", I don't think those new songs or alternate version of SMILE songs would have ever been conceived.

Glad you looked at this topic.  I've read where this was Carl's characterization of the stripped-down version we've come to know - and love! But, this is a 1967 context, even from a band member, Carl could perhaps not envision how enduring and widely-loved classic old Smiley Smile has become.  And, each of those tracks possesses a unique beauty.  Not unlike Pet Sounds, it just grew on listeners.  What could be omitted from that album, without desecrating it?

JMHO

You're talking about a composer who, throughout his entire career, has been known to stockpile and revisit previously sketched ideas or songs. It's moot, obviously, because the album did come out and we can't know what would have happened if it hadn't, but considering the man has probably never done a single album without previously worked ideas, why would you think those particular ideas wouldn't have happened and been finished at another time in the future? Because Smile happens, Little Pad isn't thought of? That just doesn't really make sense to me. Would Wild Honey' have happened? Would Friends have happened? That Smile songs may have been a part of Smile rather than part of Smiley Smile seems pretty irrelevant to me: the guy was going to keep making songs, as he did, so why assume they wouldn't have been the ones that they were?

The thing I'd miss most is just the general mood of that album.

I would miss exactly zero Smiley Smile songs.

However they wouldn't have been the exact same songs. Had SMiLE panned out maybe Brian's would've recorded the Smiley songs songs in an actual studio....rather than in his den/converted studio. Had he gone back and recorded 'Little Pad' or 'Gettin' Hungry' they may have had a totally different sound to them. With that in mind:

I would miss the vibe of those songs. The simple instrumentals, the polished vocals. Had the songs from Smiley never seen the light of day I would really miss 'Gettin Hungry', 'Wind Chimes', 'With Me Tonight'.

more like a blunt instead of a grand slam, amirite :hat

all of them, the entire album rules. more than pet sounds and about equal to love you

Hear hear!

Absolutely.

i'll tell y'all what i do miss: smiley smile versions of "cabinessence", "do you like worms?", "child is father to the man", and "surf's up". now THAT would've been a truly blunted, lo-fi psychedelic pop masterpiece.

I know what I mean but I don't know how to say it .... If you took the average music fan, or the casual Beach Boys' fan, or the other 99.99999% of the fan population who aren't on this message board - Smiley Smile would be the first or the easiest Beach Boys' album to drop or delete from the catalogue. With the possible exception of 15 Big Ones, Smiley Smile has done the most damage to the group's career.

i don't care what some mamas-and-papas-loving pop music fan thinks about smiley smile. it's obviously a weird, insular drug album. hardly surprising most people wouldn't be into it. all the better something like this was released by the beach boys; it doesn't get much more left-field than that! people here are too obsessed with the group's loss of popularity, jeez.

Have a nice day. :)

that wasn't a dig at you or anything. merely a point that it would be unsurprising 99.9% of pop music fans wouldn't be into smiley smile because it's nothing like the rest of the beach boys catalogue, especially compared o what came before but after too. even love you had some sonic precursors in the spring album and 15 big ones, for instance. i think as odd as smile might have been, it would've still been a recognisable shift from pet sounds... except then we got smiley smile, beginning the descent into the insular world of the beach boys.

I wouldn't really miss any of them. With Me Tonight is the best of the bunch though.

Smiley Smile > Smile

I want "THE SMiLE" of 1967, but Smiley Smile is more than a great consolation prize.

‍

smile is music made on drugs. smiley smile is music attempting to represent drug use, intentional or not.

No offense taken, Doctor. I realized, even as I was typing my post, that it was a downer. So I thought I would post something, complete with smiley face, going the opposite direction. Sorry for how it came off.

I'm not a fan of Smiley Smile. I think it's overrated and it signifies - to me anyway - Brian throwing in the towel. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy it; I do. But, I enjoy every Beach Boys' album. I compare it somewhat to BWPS. The songs are inferior to SMiLE. Anyway...

I don't think The Becah Boys ever recovered from Smiley Smiley. They went from Good Vibrations and that infamous poll beating The Beatles (yeah, I know it was just one poll) to declining record sales, bankruptcy, and being dropped by their record company. All that in what, 2-3 years. Hard to believe actually. Smiley Smiley was a mistake, and I always thought that Wild Honey was an attempt to apologize for it, in my opinion, of course...

"Cabin Essence" is one song that I don't think would have worked in a Smiley Smile form.  I suspect a Smiley Smile version of "Surf's Up" would have been similar to the terrific version on the first disk of The Smile Sessions that was recorded around the time of Wild Honey.

As for the Smiley Smile recordings vs. the Smile recordings, I think the SS version of "Wind Chimes" is clearly superior, the S version of "Wonderful" is clearly superior, and I've never been able to decide about "Vegetables"/"Vega-Tables."

I would miss the Smiley version of Wonderful and Vegetables.

I wouldn't miss the Carl's Surf's Up pastiche on the album of the same name.

This.

The Smile songs that came out on later albums would simply be replaced by some of the songs that came out on Smiley Smile.

Gettin' Hungry, released 1971

1. Don't Go Near the Water
2. Long Promised Road
3. Take a Load Off Your Feet
4. Disney Girls (1957)
5. Student Demonstration Time
6. Feel Flows
7. Lookin' at Tomorrow (A Welfare Song)
8. A Day in the Life of a Tree
9. Til I Die
10. Gettin' Hungry

  What else might have taken place in this alternate universe you reside in?  >>  dropped by their record company<< ?!?!?   
The one where I live, the BBs left the label they no longer trusted, for "greener" pastures.
Smiley may have been a "bunt" , but definitely not a mistake. All great songs to me

I suppose if I had to make one concession, it would be on Vegatables.  Overall I prefer the complete Smile version, but I do prefer simple bass first verse of the SS version (from the beginning up to "table-vegal") over the Smile verse.

I agree with the Sheriff, though, SS to me signifies Brian throwing in the towel. 

Smiley Smile is wonderful, beautiful, dark and twisted. With that said, I still thinks it's the used toilet paper Smile wiped it's butt with.

Love the bass-y Smiley version (so yeah, I'd miss that), but those chorus' for the SMiLE boxset version are epic. Mark and Alan did a brilliant job with that mix.

Me too, SS seems like a capitulation from greatness to mediocrity (for whatever reasons that have been postulated a million times)

I think you could call Smiley many, *many* things, but not mediocre...

Greener pastures? Browner pastures maybe. Oh, yeah, the Beach Boys had just a peachy relationship with Warner Brothers/Reprise. How many of their albums were rejected or altered or not promoted? After seven years Warner Brothers couldn't wait to show them the door.

Almost all of those alterations made the albums better though, unless you really prefer We Got Love to Sail On Sailor. And seven years is as long as they were with Capitol and longer than they were with Caribou...

One would hope that if Smile was released the band would have never embarked on their "democratic" period. I much prefer Brian's work to any of the others'.

I shudder at the thought of a universe where this scenario happens. I’ve thought about this a lot over the years and i always arrive at the same conclusion: (selfishly) grateful that Smile collapsed if only because it gave us Smiley Smile, which is just too painful to imagine not ever having existed. We have a wealth of Smile material, so it’s the best of both worlds. Had he finished Smile though....brrr...

I can separate those with whom i’d want to associate from those with whom i wouldn’t want to associate just by taking a look at their opinion on the Smiley Smile album.

i'd smoke a joint with you and listen to smiley

Not to derail the thread, but...I'm not crazy about the final configuration of Sunflower, I wish Warner Brothers WOULD HAVE intervened and demanded Dennis contribute his songs on Surf's Up, nothing wrong with having "Sail On Sailor" AND "We Got Love", and, of all albums where/when Warner Brothers SHOULD'VE stepped in and sorted out the mess - 15 Big Ones - they didn't. That being said, my point was that the relationship was not a good one. Is that point not correct?

I would rather scrap the Smile songs than the Smiley ones.




*omg this guy's crazy! ban it with fireeee*

See now, i didn't say that. I am in a very lonely minority that loves and reveres Smiley Smile and doesn't care about drugs. Just wanted to make clear that my love for Smiley is, plain and simple, coming from a strictly musical perspective/appreciation.

‍

One more point about Warner Brothers...

How badly did they mess the band up (with the BBs' assistance of course) outside America. All of their Capitol albums were huge hits outside the States but Sunflower and the singles of that period died a death.

Same here. I don't do anything stronger than coffee, but Smiley is one of my very favourite albums of all time.

Sunflower and Surf's Up were released by Stateside over here -- a division of EMI. Warners didn't start releasing the albums until (IIRC) Carl And The Passions.

Does that go for all non-U.S. territories?

I presume that Warners were part of that decision which was pretty disastrous with hindsight.

Great topic.  I love Smiley almost as much as Smile and Pet Sounds, so I'd miss just about everything on there in our hypothetical alternate universe.  I'd probably miss "Little Pad", "With Me Tonight" and "Wind Chimes" the most though, the latter being (in my opinion anyways) far superior to its Smile counterpart.  I wouldn't miss them enough to pass on a completed Smile though.

This thread inspired me to listen to Smiley Smile for the first time in WAY too long (it's been at least a week), and I just noticed for the first time that the SS Wonderful leaves out the first half of the third verse ("farther down.."). Hmph.

Funny that someone so rabidly anti-Mike would also be against the two most experimental albums Brian ever put out -- the only two Beach Boys albums which are made up entirely of Brian Wilson songs that hadn't been on other albums.

Those two albums should be exhibits A and B for anyone wanting to show that Brian really *was* a genius.

OSD was around when it came out though, so he saw the public disappointment after the glory of Pet Sounds.

Yeah, well, anyone who really knows about Brian, knows that he was a genius well before SS & LU but yes, let's make it all about mYke as you seem to want to do. ::)

Preach it!  ;D

I also agree with the sheriff, OSD, and the others in that boat.  Good to know I'm not alone in that opinion here.

Agree...I've grown to love it even more in the stereo version.   

Since nearly all the SS songs have some origin in Smile tracks, I would love to know if the melodies in "Little Pad" were originally intended for Smile tracks.

That damn word "Genius" was/is the single most destructive force in the history of The Beach Boys.....

‍

Smiley is so, so great. I much prefer the Smiley "Wonderful", "Vegetables", and "Wind Chimes" (all versions are brilliant, though), "She's Goin' Bald" slays "Speeches", and while "Heroes" could have been so much more, it's not really possible to say with certainty what a proper Smile edit would sound like. All in all, I really wish Smiley would have happened, the record company would have demanded Smile be finished and released due to poor sales of the former (with any redundant tracks appearing on both albums), and then the band's career progressing similarly to how it did. Well, at least up until like 1978, but that feels kind of irrelevant.

The late '67 "Surf's Up" is kind of indicative of what a Smiley version would sound like, but I picture something a lot more... well, what Smiley critics would call "creepiness". Even more subdued, more sparse, more organ, more backing vocals, etc.


I'm there, too. Not condemning drug use while listening to music at all, but I came to love Smiley Smile (it and the Smile material were my introduction to the band) in a 100% sober state. It's just that good to me.

Also, 900% certain that "Little Pad" has nothing to do with "Worms", "Tune X" or any other Smile piece that we've heard.

Listening to Tune X, I can hear that tune possibly fitting there.  It is so frustrating to have all these intriguing tracks that probably had melodies, etc, that are now lost.  My hope (admittedly not high) for the MIC box set is that for a handful of tracks the BBs will add vocals where they are missing...I believe Steve Kalinich said a few years ago that he still knew the lyrics and melody for "Mona Kani," for example.  If that kind of thing isn't documented sometime soon, it too will be lost.

Check out "Boundless Love" by the guy who did Finished SMiLE it's a great representation!

I would miss absolutely nothing, considering that any one of us could probably produce an album of equal or better quality in about two hours with a four track cassette recorder.

Go fer it, kid.

I don't have enough drugs. I'm sure you don't either.

Smiley Smile is the album that turned me from someone who was just curious about the Beach Boys to a diehard. It was the first BB album I ever bought, back in 1996. Love the whole thing, as does my wife...except she doesn't care for this version of Wind Chimes.

Neither of these albums is a work of genius.

Smiley Smile is Brian half-heartedly completing songs as quickly as possible. Some good, some ok and Gettin' Hungry pretty crappy.

Or it was Brian letting go of the stress and unfathomable overwhelming-ness of Smile and stripping these songs down to their basic elements in order to complete them. The idea that Smiley Smile was a half-hearted toss-off is crap - those vocal arrangements are still as complex and interesting as anything before or after, and when you listen to the Unsurpassed Masters Smiley Smile stuff, you can tell the guys really did put in a lot of work to get what Brian was going for right.

I'm not sure why you'd be here, of all places, and say Smile isn't "genius" (whatever that means/means to you), but hay. Agree to disagree, I guess.

She's Goin' Bald, Little Pad, and With Me Tonight I'd all miss. Would be glad to be rid of Gettin' Hungry though.

Smiley Smile is the sound of the ball being dropped from a great height. Brian blew it, plain and simple. That's not to say the album is not without it's charm, the singing on it is great and in a strange way I prefer the Windchimes remake to the original. But overall it sounds like Brian took the easy way out to the major detriment of his band. How can anyone defend writing songs such as Surf's Up or Cabin Essence and then not putting them out? How can anyone agree with such an artistic choice?

I've just read back what I've typed and I don't wish to seem as a major Smiley downer. I'm used to hearing all of the songs now so of course I'd miss them if they were to disappear tomorrow but when I listen to Smiley now I see it more as an interesting artifact in the band's 'wilderness' years than a good album in itself.

One track I wouldn't miss too much is Getting Hungry.  That said, if SMiLE had come out and time had taken that different path, we'd none of us have ever heard the Smiley versions so we wouldn't know to miss 'em.

Boy, I hope there's news soon…

From what I gathered from the full Danny Hutton interviews for the Brian Wilson Songwriter DVD, I sense that Smiley Smile was Brian's attempt to return to "marijuana" music. Yes - the man thinks that way. Hutton even mentions how Pet Sounds was Brian's marijuana album (if you asked Brian about the sound, he'd say "I dunno... I was smoking a lot of weed). On that album, the songs are flowing and echoey.  But then Hutton remarks about how Smile was more of a "speed" album, and that perhaps it didn't connect quite as well because of that. The music stopped "flowing" or some such, plus you hear the paranoia and manic behavior creep into some of the material.

So, naturally, I suppose Brian thought smoking tons of weed and making a new Smile could bring back the magic he felt he'd lost.

Murry's fault, no doubt.  ;)

But yeah the cyber-universe is full of "Brian is a Genius" posts to the point the word's impact becomes quite diluted.

From looking at these posts Smiley Smile is, if nothing else the most polarizing LP the BB have put out.

I am in the middle I guess, I don't dislike SS it just seems like a bringdown from the higher plateau reached by Smile
even in Smile's uncompleted state.

Ofc everyone is entitled to their opinion but concerning our abilities to make anything near as good as SS, that must be the most ignorant statement I've seen anywhere on the internet for quite some time. That's saying a lot. Smiley is a shredded masterpiece.

Smiley Smile is so good they named a message-board after it. I love this album whether stone cold sober or in an altered state of consciousness, I can understand that a lot of people don't like it but to say things like the album has 'horrible vocals' is just plain wrong, the harmonized humming on Little Pad and the group vocals on With Me Tonight are just magical.

It's a wonder to me how the question of which album is the most polarizing is ever asked. It's very apparent that it's Smiley and LY. Also, i think the Smiley = Brian throwing in the towel argument is crap. Why? Just because of what preceded it? There seems to be way more ideas, effort, creativity, nuance, and deliberate production and stylistic choices on Smiley than on Wild Honey. But Wild Honey is almost uniformly lauded amongst those in the know. Why? Because it's straightforward pop songs, and Smiley is "weird"? Because it's a "return to form" (how? it's not), and Smiley is a "compromised" effort simply because they're rerecordings of big scale productions (which isn't even entirely the case because people tend to forget how much of Smile is pretty minimal)? It's just a different bag altogether, i don't see why it has to be a qualitative thing. As RDZ said, listen to the UM of the Smiley sessions. Hell, just listen to the album. How does that sound like a defeated man who no longer cares? I would love it if apathy ever produced a fraction of the inventiveness that is running all throughout Smiley Smile. You don't put together an album with such peculiar and imaginative arrangements, stellar vocal arranging and performances, and such a well crafted overall mood when you don't give a sh*t and are just going through the motions or taking the easy way out.

Nobody said that.

The previous poster commented that he felt Smiley Smile and Love You showed Brian as a genius which I disagree with.

Nothing to do with Smile which urinates all over Smiley Smile from a great height.

There is a difference between being a genius and being "gifted."

Whatever "gift" you have is of little use, unless you go and work hard at it.  I think Brian is a "gifted" individual who worked, often tirelessly, and got a very good result. 

Raw intelligence without diligence gets you nowhere.

And, Smiley Smile, was, in my opinion, very avant-grade, and still holds "classic" status, in my, and many others' books who bought it upon release, notwithstanding the recent sessions release.
 

in that case that's one golden shower I actually like lol

Golden showers?

Gee, I hope there's some news soon…:(

Please illustrate. :lol

:lol

I very much miss the angry, bitter, drunken voice and piano version of "Caroline No" that Brian would definitely have recorded if he'd given up on Pet Sounds partway through the sessions and done something else instead.

Agreed.

Also agree.

Oh by all means, go right ahead then.  ::)

Do you ever get the feeling that some people are listening, but not listening?

Man, as much as I'm really in awe of fan covers of the entire Pet Sounds album and how close many of them are to the real thing, I'm hoping that someday a fan or so will veer off that sort of path and make Pet Sounds ala Smiley Smile (Pet Sounds ala Love You would be great too!).

On the opposite side of the spectrum someone doing the Love You album in the manner of mid 60's Brian Wilson production would be pretty groovy too!

Do You Like Worms and Holidays are definitely tracks I could see getting Smiley Smile versions in an alternate universe, they both fit the mood of the album.

I can't imagine the world without Smiley Smile !

It would be a lot less mellow

I prefer the SS Wind Chimes and V-T to any SMiLE-era version of them. The chorus to Gettin' Hungry would need some kind of Motown production, and the song would be great. In general I like Smiley Smile, I only always skip GV because it just sounds out of place.


You might be in for a disappointment regarding "THE SMiLE" of 1967 - at the time the cantina version of H&V was done, Brian recorded the Rock Me Henry Wonderful. What if that had appeared on "THE SMiLE of 1967"?


I think I'd prefer that to the original. I'd even buy it!

I LOVE Rock Me Henry!

Ladies and Gentlemen, the stupidest post ever!

Exactly. You'd need at least 3 hours to produce your own Smiley Smile album.

Aww, you guys.......

Not quite got the hang of quoting AuldSurfaDood?

Uh, what we got here is an agdster wannabe.

3 hours and 45 minutes.  30 minutes to score the weed, 15 minutes to roll a bunch of joints, and 3 hours to record the music.

I disagree, I was just poking fun at your quote mess-up and lampooning the idiosyncratic way in which you spell the names Mike and Bruce. There is no danger of me flying off the handle and calling you names or correcting people on the minutia of Beach Boys history.

News, news,
The way to diffuse…

I wonder what a really stoned Mike was like to be around?

cough....UM 18....cough.

You know what i don't get? People talk about how Smiley is all drugged out, how it's the result of a band getting stoned and hitting the record button, etc. But were they on drugs all the time? When the album was finished, when it was mixed, when it came time to present it to Capitol and put it out, what, were they still in a drugged stupor? Were Capitol execs on drugs? I was thinking about people i knew in high school who recorded in their bedroom. A number of people who smoked a lot of pot, wrote some songs, and then recorded while being high. Inevitably, the next day would come and they'd be sober. They'd either a) find that what they recorded the previous day stunk or b) they thought it was good, they liked what being in an altered state did to their creativity and so they continued tapping into that. I don't really know where i'm going with this. The question above about Mike being stoned just got me thinking. How long was the period in which Mike was smoking? I guess my point is, they had to have thought for at least a few months time that the music was good and worth putting out, right? I understand a kid recording one night stoned out of his mind with no consequences, and then returning to it later and assessing the recordings. But this is The Beach Boys recording an album over the course of a couple of months and then a few more months passing before release date. That surely can't just be a case of the guys getting stoned one night or two and recording any old thing. I know some people on here have argued before that they were in a position where they needed to put out anything no matter what, just have some product out. Would they have really considered it worse to put out no album than an album they thought was total crap? Did Capitol see it that way? I'm just thinking out loud. 

Didn't it take 2 or 3 weeks to record it? Not months...

I don't think it was a group decision really and more just down to Brian. Now Carl said, 'Smiley Smile was lost because Brian wanted it to be lost'. Capitol must have been putting pressure on to release something...

Which tracks in particular? I'm listening to this now -- trying to reassess this album, maybe I haven't given it enough time. 

If you only count the June/July '67 sessions it was 6 weeks. However that is 25 sessions. Compare that number of sessions to the number of session for PS or the earlier albums. It as many sessions but packed into a short time span apparently because they could work when they wanted to and didn't have the waiting periods between booking studios. Of course other sessions before June were also towards SS so that figure of 25 total sessions is low. So for some reasons we want to believe that SS was dashed off but it wasn't.

If you didn't like it initially, you probably never will. I'm not sure it's a "grow on you" type of album. I wouldn't lose sleep over it if I were you. You like what you like.

Good points but I'm guessing that The Beach Boys were perma stoned around the summer of '67. Not only did SS seem like a good idea at the time but then they couldn't even put the hash pipe down long enough to record Lei'd in Hawaii. Also Bruce essentially left the band for a few months because he couldn't tolerate the drug situation in the group at that time.

Don't sugar coat it or anything, tell us how you really feel!  :lol

I dunno, I haven't listened to the set in a while...not that I've ever heard it, I mean. Nudge nudge.

I remember hypehat turned me on to one of the H&V (IIRC) sessions on the official box where Mike seems to be "affected". He giggles quite a bit!

Ah, the deification of Smiley Smile. What would I miss? Not much - six out of the eleven would have been presented in their (painstaking) glory on Smile. And that would have been far far superior to the dashed-off, demoesque SS renditions.

I would like to hear from someone who heard it in '67 and LOVED it as a low tech masterpiece. Really not sure those people exist, since hindsight has brought legions of low-fi fanatics who have imbued a ridiculous amount of pretense to this strange album.

I 'kind of' like it (when I'm in the mood), but I could very easily see it slip away into the shadows of history if the full and proper Smile was released. To me, SS's adherents remind me of people who worship at the feet of Pavement and early Guided By Voices. Quick, dirty, noisy, DONE (as if that somehow imbues some great artistic honesty). No thanks...spend the time in a proper studio and get it done right. Anything else is jive, in my opinion.

Here's 2 scenarios where some of the quirky SS tracks could receive a proper reception by an adoring public:
a) a solo album by Brian...why not? say, circa '70
b) a double album by the boys, ASSUMING they've already generated the MO and good will they would have greatly deserved had Smile been fully realized. White Album, anyone?

To me Smiley Smile is a strange cult of an album. I might hang out and accept its offer of toke, but it's just too silly and too inconsequential for my tastes. Definitely a 'casual' acquaintance.

Just do your own Smiley Smile mix and stick on the 1967 Brian "demo" of Surf's Up. It fits very nicely.  8)

So you seem to be suggesting that only contemporary opinion is valid when evaluating the quality and merit of music. I suppose the fact that Bach’s style of composing fell out of favor with the public toward the end of his life is an indicator of the true quality of his late works because whatever opinions people have formed about it in hindsight don’t really count? The opinion of the day is the final arbiter?

Smiley Smile is not lo-fi. I think that’s the second most common misconception about the record. Sparse arrangements, lack of echo chamber, using Neumanns and a professional board (albeit one for radio) ≠ lo-fi.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but here is one Smiley Smile adherent who has no tolerance for Pavement and similar music. I haven’t really given Guided By Voices a proper chance so i can’t comment there. But quick, dirty, and noisy are some of the last terms that would describe my tastes in music. As i mentioned earlier in this thread, Smiley doesn’t sound rushed or half-heartedly thrown together at all to me. And, as Cam Mott noted above, by the standards of the day (aside from Smile, which was the exception to the rule), the Smiley sessions were not much shorter than sessions for previous albums. Spend some time in a proper studio, you say? So, what, i take it your problem with SS is more from an engineering perspective? The same exact songs and arrangements recorded in a proper studio would do the trick? Is it an issue with session musicians vs the Beach Boys as musicians?

Sounds to me, based on your post, that you’re more hung up on the mythology of Smiley Smile than the cult following who you say deify it. 

Yeh, I've said it before, Smiley & Wild Honey are not lo-fi at all. They're kind of demo-like though, particularly for a band of the group's stature at the time. I think Smiley is the most bold release from a major band ever. They've aged very well, and will continue to turn people on and on ...

I think sometimes people confuse production prowess with fidelity.

I do notice though that the UM boot has the recordings in much clearer sound than the actual album. I don't have the reissued SS, though, so I can't comment on its sound, but the original CD pressing was very muddy.

True. H&V didn't really come to life for me until Linett's stereo mix. I could drag Wild Honey into the sound quality discussion as well, but naw - this is all about Smiley right now.

I just feel that this album has engendered a following which is way way beyond its mettle. And while it's easy to use examples of art which grew on listeners over time, Smiley to me is only a quirky, yes - demoesque recording... which certainly applies to the 90's four track home recording movement of the likes of GBV et al. Perhaps I misspoke when I characterized its failings as quick and dirty. The minimal instrumentation is certainly 'clear' - but that doesn't make it deep or in any way profound. As for me, I prefer Deep-n-Wide.

Couple things - as I mentioned before, I prefer the fully fleshed out versions of the 6 tracks which would've been featured on Smile. As such, I could live without their demo versions. The balance of the album as is would not have been saved even if it were recorded at Abbey freakin' Road. The songs just weren't fully realized. Which is okay - if you're into an experimental trip. Maybe they were...doesn't mean that it holds water to what came before or after.

Secondly, yeah the mythology of it all kind of makes me laugh. Makes me smiley.  :p I just don't take the album very seriously to tell you the truth. A huge missed opportunity back in the day.

Ah, I hadn't checked the sessions...

Interestingly Brian when publicizing the album claimed that it was done in 3 weeks which says a lot for his mentality at the time perhaps. It also may speak for the fact that some of those sessions were nothing like as intense as earlier ones and a lot less work as done.

Forget Smiley's ties to Smile for just a second and just focus on what it is and the end result for me is just the same - a weird, rushed off sounding record that just doesn't hold up to what the boys had put out before it. The bar had been set very high by their previous releases. Smiley wasn't acceptable as a follow up to Pet Sounds for many of their fans.

Well, you took it in the spirit it was meant.  :)

Also with the glut of Smile boots out there it's clear to see that a decent Smile release was clearly within the groups grasp. The bulk of the album was in the can for months. How long would it have taken to finish off the leads for Plymouth Rock and have Carl cut a lead for Cabin Essence in 66? You never see my name in the Smile Sessions discussions because frankly I could give a sh*t what part of Barnyard was meant to fit in what song or where The Old Master Painter was to be sequenced. All the little bits Brian was tinkering with are to my ears insignificant fluff. Nice, but not worth stalling an album for. Here's a perfectly decent Smile tracklist that was a good 90% done when Brian junked it;

1- Our Prayer/Gee
2 - Heroes and Villians
3 - Roll Plymouth Rock (just finish the lead vocal)
4 - Windchimes
5 - Cabin Essence (just add lead vocal)

6 - Vega - tables
7 - Wonderful
8 - Mrs O' Leary's Cow
9 - Surf's Up (with or without a second movement. The piano half works fine as it is)
10 - Good Vibrations

This is how their 'Lifehouse' could've been a smashing 'Who's Next' transformation. Scrapping all that material was the silliest thing anyone ever did. I fully agree with you that the small segments/fragments were insignificant compared to the main songs which were all fully recorded except a few leads and Surf's Up 2nd movement (which I'm sure Brian could've held a session for and arranged in less than a week back then). It might not quite have been what VDP and Brian originally had in mind (although it seems that itself is very ambiguous), but it would've been a very unique album and something to be proud of for both of them. In fact, in that configuration it might've been more successful than throwing Holidays into the lot.

And the ensuing unfair comparisons the Sgnt Peppers?

No, I think Brian knew what he was doing. And aren't we lucky, we now have two wonderful albums.

True Brian may have lost track of what he originally intended for Smile, but to scrap everything brings to mind the old saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

I just did a runtime tally on my proposed tracklisting and it is a little short even by 1960s lp standards. How about inserting the Dada "water, water, water" chant section between Windchimes and Cabin Essence for a bit of mid 60's freakiness? And as a wild card have Carl's "Tune X" finish the album after Good Vibrations.

But you can argue that if he hadn't spent so much time jerking off in the studio then Smile would have come out long before Pepper.

I agree. Intentionally failing.

But he didn't. Maybe I misunderstood, I thought we were talking about a June assembly of Smile tracks instead of re-recording them as Smiley Smile. In this case Sgt Peppers had been released and my point stands. Had Smile come out in June it would have suffered unfair comparisons with Pepper. Brian avoided this by going in a completely different direction.

Obviously this is all conjecture. I love Smile, and a finished Smile in '67 would have been amazing. However........

It has been noted before though that maybe if they had finished Smile in Jan '67, it would not have had the impact Brian had hoped for, and even if it had, their career may still have nosedived soon after. It may well be that, by not releasing Smile and having it become the legend that it did, has, in the long term actually been very beneficial to their legacy.

Also, if you listen to the Smile sessions chronologically, they segue, in some cases quite seamlessly into Smiley Smile. I'm talking about the April Vegatables, which is very stripped down, and more importantly Wonderful. Listen to all four versions of that. There are no gaps in that fossil record. Who is to say that, if Smile had been released, Brian wouldn't have headed in this more stripped down direction on his next project?

Finally, I know some people don't llike Smiley. This is fine. I can only think it's to do with the sound, as there is nothing wrong with the music. Try to listen past the sound, this music is every bit as inventive as anything that came prior, if not more so.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. It's all about taste. I've said it before, but I think the Smiley Smile version of Wind Chimes is one of the greatest things ever put down on tape by anyone. It is certainly my favourite Beach Boys recording by miles. I for one would not swap Smiley Smile for anything.

Agreed with this. The Smiley Wind Chimes is one of the most transcendentally beautiful pieces of music ever, and I still to this day can't conceive how a human being could come up with something like that. The Smile version sounds like a badly-thought-out demo for the finished Smiley version.

Stephen I agree with you on the Smiley version of Windchimes, I also prefer the Smiley cut of Heroes and Villians over the somewhat daft 90 odd edit "Cantina" version. But then you have the Smiley version of Wonderful which sounds like a sloppy demo compared to the Smile version. I also agree that Smile may not have sold by the bucketload whatever time Brian put it out. Actually I'm inclined to believe that it would have sold less than Pet Sounds.

I really don't see Smiley and Wild Honey as all that different from some of their earlier albums in terms of approach. I mean, 'Girl From New York City' could ALMOST fit on Wild Honey ... I think Smiley was really just like a cross between Pet Sounds and Party.

Summer Days, Party, Pet Sounds, Smiley, WH, Friends ... doesn't seem that strange to me at all.

Personally, I think the Smile stuff that people have come to accept as definitive versions ('Wonderful', 'Wind Chimes', etc.) sound unfinished and more demo-like than the Smiley to me.

I can't agree that there's nothing wrong with the music. There's a lot wrong with Gettin' Hungry imo.

Several of the other songs sound half finished.

I agree Getting Hungry is probably the weakest track on there. Doesn't make it any less than fantastic though. The spirited vocals, the dynamic changes between the verses and choruses. The organ riff. The whole sound of the organ. Wonderful stuff.

Lol. Oh is it Taboo?? I listened to a Wind chimes track where Mike was complaining (my voice is coming back in the...blankety-blank phones) - and Brian said something about "oh man, Sh!t on a stick that was...." fades out.  :lol

Yeah, the entire lot are baked as Snoop Dogg on some of those H&V sessions! Not sure how this is news, it's so unbelievably obvious. I think even Mike tells Al to smoke some dope in so many words.

That's "Awldsyrfadood" with a "y", Paulos, that's important! :wink

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15436.msg360374.html#msg360374

Ok, I'm going to make another concession.  I've been cycling SS because of this debate and......turns out I really like "Little Pad."  I think what initially (and until just last night) turned me off about that track was the goof-off intro.  While I still hate that intro with a fiery passion, the simple track that follows is quite beautiful.  The wordless vocals sound just like (and I have no doubt that Brian was mimicking) the strings in what most people considered "Hawaiian" music at the time.  Flawlessly executed.  I also like the uke.

So there you go.  If we never got SS, I would miss the first minute or so of Vegatables and most of Little Pad.

Oh , gee, the beginning of another convert. I can't begin to fathom what a relief this is

I'm touched.

1, or 2? 

1. Emotionally affected; moved;
2. Somewhat demented or mentally unbalanced.

I don't get the aversion to the beginning of "Little Pad". "THIS IS THE BEACH BOYS, PLEASE APPROACH YOUR MUSIC WITH A DEAD SERIOUS ATTITUDE. DDDDRRRRAAAAGGGHHHHWHATISTHIS?!?!?!?!"

yeah seriously, the catina section in heroes has that dumb (not pejorative!) "you're under arrest!" bit and you all seem to love that so back the f*** up off "little pad" homies

Didn't like the beginning of Little Pad at first, but it's grown on me. Freakin' awesome song anyway.

I disliked that line! Part of why i never include a H&V version with it in my playlist

well you know what i mean dude: most people here like the beach boys when they're "obviously", intentionally funny but then turn around and start stompin' and hollerin' when they're funny but it might be unintentional or just them being high or whatever. like, dudes, the beach boys were not deadly-serious people, least of all brian, even when they made "art music" or whatever the hell

I'm with you, too.  See, not so lonely, after all, is it?  :)

smiley is great sober or not. it's not like smoking a bowl is suddenly going to make m.i.u. an album worth listening to, haha, know what i mean?

... have you ever tried it, though?

i haven't, haha. i don't want to waste a bowl like that, man. next time i pick up an ounce i should get high as hell and blitz the post-love you catalogue though... solid thread material there i bet huhuhu

maybe "sumahama" will make me cry

I find MIU an album that is worth listening to sober. Anyway, usually, an album you listen to sober you're just going to like more when you're...not. On the other hand, you'd have to pay me to listen to LA in an altered state!  :hat

I used to entertain this thought myself. And then maybe after spending all those many tens of thousands of dollars
on Pet Sounds and (broken) SMiLe he figured a home studio and a quickie LP would appease the Gods at the Tower.

Did go back and do some focused listening to Smiley Smile and I still just cant groove with it. Maybe its because my best
friend Charlton who always seemed to have money to buy the latest music bought Sgt. Pepper about the same time as Smiley
and liked the former, better -- and the record player was his too.  :p

Capitol was only the distributor for Smiley, BRI was the label and Brian was the God at the Bellagio. 

I still say SS was not a quickie but just finished in a shorter span because there was not the waiting periods in between waiting for studio. Obviously Lockert was getting a more than good enough sound out of the rented equipment and home studio according to the tapes. I think we need to entertain the idea that Smiley was very deliberately and laboriously casual as per the desire of Brian. And he did it in spite of pressure from the Boys to hold on to the stuff already completed for SMiLE. Failing was the furthest thing from Brian's mind as they made SS in my opinion as shown by his excitement to hand deliver an exclusive preview of H&V.

I would miss any and all songs from SS if it did not exist. Some fans compare SS to Love You, but I don't see it/hear it. Love You, sure, is underproduced, but not in the minimalist fashion of SS. And Love You contains some of the worst BB's vocals committed to vinyl. They may have been stoned out of their gourds during SS - well, except for Mr. Clean Jardine - but those vocals are sublime.

The Smile Sessions version of "With Me Tonight" is great.... I think I prefer it to the one on Smiley Smile