The Smiley Smile Message Board

Should have been on Surfs Up.   Mistake on someone's part...

agreed. it's dumbfounding how many great songs this band has left in the can.

2 lbb: let me search it for you (took it from lmgtfy.com): http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,13837.0.html

Happy reading!

Eh. To be honest, I don't care for this song much. There's plenty of other Dennis songs which are a lot better.

4th of July is one HELL of a dirge.

Yeah, it is a stunner.


Not much a mistake as a disagreement between Carl and Dennis which caused the latter to withdraw his compositions from the album.

I love 4th of July. A dirge? Maybe, but a dirge which takes you directly to Heaven.

But then, I love all songs by Dennis. Whenever I listen to his music, I can't help thinking that he was only 39 when he died. What a tragedy.

One of Carl's best vocals.

What an AMAZING album "Surf's Up" woulda been with "Fourth Of July", "Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again", and maybe "Lady" slotted in somewhere amongst all the existing tracks. Personally, I envision "Fourth Of July" following "Student Demonstration Time" to close out Side One, "Lady" following either "Feel Flows" or "Lookin' At Tomorrow" on Side Two, and "Live Again" duking it out with "Surf's Up" to close out the whole thing (your choice).

I've always liked the idea of the album closing with 'Til I Die followed by (Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again.

The song Surf's Up is great but if I had to choose between it or Dennis' WIBNTLA & 4th of July (and Lady if it was a contender), I'd choose Dennis' songs. Surf's Up is a great album closer but they could have used it on a future album that they'd need songs for.

   My current custom SURF'S UP slots "WIBNTLA" as the coda after the title song. "4th of July" maybe between "Disney Girls" and "SDT"?

Couldn't agree more!!

Yeah, I could see "Fourth" going there, as well.

4th of July is STUNNING! Carl's vocal is gorgeous atop a typically spine-tingling Dennis melody.

I'd love to have seen it end side 1 of Surf's Up, pref in place of SDT.

I don't like it.

I love the song/track, but Carl's delivery bugs me. It was just a scratch vocal, so I'll bet if they ever really finished the song it'd be in the upper tier of songs from that period.

I love that song and

  So you're saying you think the BBs have a finished version in their vault(s) which we have yet to hear?

My Tracklisting...

Surf's Up LP

A1: 4th of July
A2: Long Promised Road
A3: Disney Girls (1957)
A4: Don't Go Near the Water [instrumental]
A5: Surf's Up

B1: Lady (Fallin' in Love)
B2: Feel Flows
B3: A Day in the Life of a Tree
B4: 'Til I Die
B5: (Wouldn't It Be Nice) To Live Again

Singles
Long Promised Road b/w Disney Girls (1957)
Surf's Up b/w Don't Go Near the Water

"Landlocked" EP - I realize not all these tracks are related to the historical Landlocked, but I wanted to group the odds and ends of the tracks above somewhere and the title fits well thematically with Surf's Up.
A1: Sound of Free
A2: Take a Load Off Your Feet
B1: Student Demonstration Time
B2: Lookin' At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song)

No...just that if it's an unfinished work.

Same here.  Carl Wilson at his finest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEzR0Iz1sjA

Well, there's always the instrumental version ;D

In an interview conducted by Mike Grant and edited and produced by AGD for the 100th issue of Beach Boys Stomp, Mark Linett said that although he was able to find the instrumental multi-track, he was unable to locate the vocal. Instead Mark used a vocal that Carl had recorded during the sessions.

I'd rather have Dennis singing the lead. Carl sounds a bit whiny, though I'm aware that it was just a scratch vocal. And there are still some backing vocals dusting in the vault.

Carl? "Whiny"?

Now I can't get "4th Of July" out of my head! :-D  

Was Dennis Wilson a genius? He definitely had "it". He had the "it" that Brian had. There's that beautiful quality in his music that just gets to you and makes you feel. And, Dennis spread his work around like Brian. He especially liked Carl's voice:

"All I Want To Do" - Mike lead vocal
"4th Of July" - Carl lead vocal
"Steamboat" - Carl Lead vocal
"Only With You" - Carl Lead vocal
"Baby Blue" - Carl & Dennis lead vocal

Here's another nice YouTube video of "4th Of July": http://youtu.be/SLgV9jm4IXY

Dennis was one in a million.

‍

I disagree.

Also, "genius" is so overused to the point that it hardly means anything anymore when it comes to music. They're much farther and fewer between than we make it seem. I believe Brian is a musical genius, and his work reflects that. The complexity, ingenuity, inventiveness - I think it all points to a superior adeptness in music.

However, I certainly wouldn't classify Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, Andy Partridge, Neil Young, Ray Davies, Harry Nilsson, Tom Waits or people like that as geniuses.
Talented, yes. Geniuses, no.

Brian himself said that Dennis was a genius in his own right

Then I disagree with Brian, too.
Not everyone has to be a genius.

Completely agreed. So glad this is being largely recognized in the last few years!

Wow, he did? That's awesome!

Careful Bubbly, I've been flamed in the past for daring to suggest that talented as he was, Dennis was no genius.

sometimes people just want to sit and listen to a nice simple song (like "Be Still" for instance instead of "Surfs Up").  everything doesn't have to be about "complexity".  for the people who don't have any music background at all probably won't think of a song along those lines.  if it makes them feel good they'll be satisfied.  and if there's one thing Dennis is known for it's making people feel what he was trying to say in his music.

What you've said doesn't have anything to do with him being a genius.

Agreed. And I find it ludicrous to suggest that the person who created POB and the highlights of 20/20, Sunflower and L.A. Light Album (okay, even I admit his work on CATP isn't exactly his best), as well as WIBNTLA isn't a genius!

DW was good, but no genius. BW carried a whole band to success and glory from 1961-1967. Plus fleeting glimses from then on in various years.

Dennis was GREAT, I am a massive fan, but agree not a genius from a musical perspective - I think his talent and unique angle/appeal came from his ability to convey a ton of emotion and power in his songs/art - fuckin' amazing stuff, but I don't think Dennis broke new ground in the same way Brian did.

Nothing to fight over tho' - pretty lucky to have had both of them affect our musical lives.

Exactly. I said that Brian (being the genius that he is) said that his brother was a genius in his own right.  he didn't have to say that but he did.  dennis wasn't on the same level as Brian but he was the closest one in the band to that.  and they both had two different styles.  I couldn't see Brian making an album like POB.  and just imagine what Dennis could've done if he was still alive today and had been able to battle his demons and come through the way Brian has.

Judd is a genius.

Agreed! :hat

Well, I would say that Brian created what are easily the highlights of those albums you mention.



Once again, I will have to disagree with Brian.

Dennis never composed anything like "I Get Around" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice". Brian made grand-scale pop symphonies in 2 and half minutes that were musically and vocally complex, and yet they were perfectly listenable and were eaten up by a large audience. The complexity of his songs is sort of hidden and to show off these complexities is never the point of his songs. On the surface, it's simply great music. Yet when you look deeper, there's so much intelligence and inspiration to appreciate. The layers of intricacies is unlike any other pop/rock song-writer.

Dennis was fine - even talented - but he's not a genius. He made some good songs, some great songs, and some excellent songs, and that's all there is to it. Emotional resonance has nothing to do with whether or not he was a genius.

Perhaps we'll have to disagree on what constitutes a genius.


How can someone without any background/understanding of music actually know who is a musical genius?

Perhaps if Dennis didn't drown, overcame his demons, completed and released Bambu and continued making excellent music, then the idea that Dennis is a genius would be more widely accepted...

But he wasn't no matter what he did. BW's production of hits in his prime is unmatched by anybody.

Umm... there's I'm Going Your Way and Slip On Through, which both beat I Get Around IMO.

And as for WIBN, there's WIBNTLA, and River Song, and Thoughts Of You, and etc.

I can understand if a lot of people disagree, but there are people who would agree.

no

And that is your opinion...

Some people are just born with a gift--that's Brian, we all know that.  Denny's songwriting and music developed over time getting better and better almost getting to the point of reaching Brian's level.  Brian had a lot of people who backed him up and supported everything he did, meanwhile dennis didn't always get that same support (especially since his stuff wasn't "commercial enough") so he didn't have the confidence.

and to answer your question Bubbly Waves, someone who doesn't have a musical background probably will not be concerned whether or not the artist they're listening to is a genius or not. if the song makes them feel good, they'll be satisfied.   like I said Dennis had a way of making the listener feel what he was singing about, sometimes even more so than Brian did  :shrug.  sorry.

Maybe you like those two songs more but any music theory teacher would tell you that the structure of I Get Around is far more complex as are the vocal arrangments. Not to mention a vastly more inventive production.

I think Dennis wrote some fantastic stuff under his brother's shadow but he's not a genius. If we all started tagging all our favourite songwriters as 'geniuses' the term would become meaningless.

There is no exact definition of genius that everyone agrees on so it's pointless arguing about it.

Agreed.


You have a point. Though I still agree with Retrokid.

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I would say Dennis was an exceptionally gifted songwriter - and a very natural and organic one also. Genius? He certainly had his moments.

.

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Mike's Beard... Is a genius!!

I am? That's news to me and I guess anyone who knows me.

4th of July would have been a worthy addition to Surf`s Up but it`s not one of Dennis`s strongest songs imo.

Dennis certainly showed his ability as a songwriter but I would have to agree that one good solo album and the Beach Boys songs he recorded in the 70s (as fine as some of them are) are not evidence of a genius.

I'ts obvious that the period Dennis was loved in this board is over.  >:(

Oh, what an overreaction. He doesn't have to be a genius to be a talented songwriter. There are so many talented songwriters that aren't geniuses, and it's no slight against them. The geniuses are just lucky to have been gifted in such  a way.

Carl wasn't a genius, but I still love him and his songs - or is the period of Carl loving over, too?

How do you equate not calling Dennis a musical genius with no love? Dennis had few great songs, but he was not in the same league as Brian. Not too many are.

  Although influenced by Brain (especially the SMILE era) Dennis developed an independent and organic songwriting vision that was distinct from Brian's. This is a trick none of the others quite mastered IMO. Dennis was a great talent, but I would not describe him as a "genius."

 "I Get Around" is classic early Beach Boys and Brian's first avant-garde production IMO. It beats "Slip On Through."

I'm Going Your Way BETTER THAN I Get Around!!!

Well that's just.....OUTRAGEOUS! Someone call the taste :police:

has this really devolved into an argument over who is/isn't a genius?

it's highly subjective. like the word "beautiful" it means different things to different people and there is no accepted definition or qualification. therefore if someone feels that Dennis was a genius, that is their opinion and trying to dissuade them is futile and pointless.

Daryl Dragon marveled at Dennis's ability to play piano and write songs, seemingly without study or years of practice. he seemed to think Dennis had some higher, natural ability that others have to work very hard to accomplish. this could certainly be described as genius.

just because Dennis didn't write I Get Around or Pet Sounds doesn't mean he wasn't some kind of genius in his own right, as Brian himself stated.

No chance of that ever happening here. Too many hardcore Dennis Wilson fans, including the author of a book about him that resides on these premises. In spite of Dennis' shortcomings on a personal level, his wonderful music will always prevail. The consensus here is that he's the second most talented Beach Boy. Forever and ever, amen.

Lots of love and respect for Dennis on this board, doesn't mean we have to big him up to something he wasn't. Any time someone insists on equaling his talents to that of Brian's a bunch of people will disagree.

Anything relating to genius art is obviously subjective territory, but I do have the opinion that there are genius elements in the Beach Boys music with Brian being responsible for the vast majority of them. Inventiveness and originality are the keys, but it goes deeper, with Pet Sounds and Smile you are talking about tapping into spiritual levels of creativity...depth of art that not only relies on the creative mind, but also the heart and soul, or whatever is the human conduit to a spiritual realm. This takes the music to a level beyond great music, and towards something closer to human connection and love. I think this is where the real genius exists in Brian's music, and I think it is what Daryl Dragon was trying to explain about Dennis' ability as well. These are not trained or highly educated musicians, but they have an innate ability to tap into something that is truly genuine and moving. And it can be subtle, just in the way they seek, and frame chords, inversions, the choice of bass notes, the way they melt the melody into the transitions as if they are obviously inherent to the structure, like fingers in a glove. These are the moments that make the hair on your neck stand up, or goosebumps, or even tears form just by listening. Can you imagine having the gift to do that, and that gift is completely organic? It's gotta be genius on some level, spiritual genius at minimum.

I really hate it when something has to be compared to something else to argue whether it's good or great. I would defer to the people who watched these guys at their craft, in the creative mode, how they were conduits to an unexplainable realm and how elements beyond explanation flowed from them. Minds were blown by Brian, and Dennis...and the other guys as well at various points in their creative life. Call it genius, call it God, call it love...whatever it is it never stops moving those who hear it and connect with it. The Wilsons gave it to us, and we're better off for experiencing it. Maybe Beach Boys music is what immortality sounds like.

Great post, Jon.

You're right, Jon, they were truly tapping into something special.

And I don't mean to necessarily compare the two, it's just that Brian is perhaps the closest example I can think of to a true musical genius of his and our time*. I see the word applied a lot to musicians, and I sort of use to buy into it, but I just don't believe it anymore. John Lennon, Roger Waters, Pete Townshend... these guys just are not geniuses.

A genius is a "rare and remarkable" thing (according to some dictionary) and we're truly lucky to have that in Brian. "Genius" does not equal "very talented", which you can be without being a "genius". Not everyone has to be a genius - it's not an insult, it's just how I see it.

I've spoken my piece and it's clear I won't change opinions. I admire people's stubbornness, as it is a quality I'm often affixed with myself. I hope it's clear that I'm not speaking out of malice, but a genuine viewpoint that the word is simply used too often - just by it's definition, "genius" can't be something so common.

*Excluding jazz and classical music, both of which I unfortunately know nothing about.

all I can say is thank you bossaroo and Jon Stebbins.  it's just really annoying to me that when people express admiration for Dennis someone has to come behind and say "Brian was better" (or something along those lines).  We all know by now that Brian is/was a genius.  Both of them had two different styles and reached people in different ways.

You can't listen to Good Vibrations and not marvel at how awesome it was for 1966, that it was amazing and not a one hit wonder.  I think Dennis was very talented, WIBNTLA is very good, but I've never listened to one of his songs and been blown away like GV and other BW productions.

that's all good, but as I recall when people heard WIBNTLA for the first time a lot of people were blown away by that too.  and I feel sorry for those who had to wait 42 years to hear that

I'll have to admit that I was pretty blown away with WIBNTLA, and that never happened to me with GV. Though that could be because I knew the song for so many years, and it was (and still is I think) used for a commercial for a electronic retail company called The Good Guys.

That's what I thought... Until the Dennis Wilson Appreciation thread where everyone started saying Mike was the second-most talented to Brian...

Isn't there such a thing as lyrical genius?

So what if people say that? Does that somehow make Dennis worse? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Opinions, man...

Yes - and its name is Bob Dylan.

I was just saying that it doesn't seem like that it's the general consensus that Dennis is the second-most talented Beach Boy, especially after that thread...

The general consensus is irrelevant when it come to music. It's what you yourself think that matters.

why can't people express their admiration for Dennis without others commenting "he's no Brian, or he's no Dylan"?  he was his own person and in recent years after being labeled as the "no talent clubber" for so long, people are starting to realize that when it comes to having the best songwriting talent (or just being a "genius") he was the second runner up in that band.  What's so bad about acknowledging that?  ???

 I don't understand why some hardcore Dennis fans can't accept that for many of us it's enough just to enjoy the man's talents, they have to insist that he's a genius on Brian's level and the band's second best songwriter etc. and to disagree is to put him down. Frankly I can't decide who's the best songwriter in the band after Brian - it's a blur for me, their collected efforts from the first half of the 70s are staggeringly good.


When people claim he was a genius too they are instantly inviting a comparison to Brian.

What's so bad about feeling differently than you do?
If you can express your feelings, why can't I?

God, not that it surprises me, but so well said, my man!

nothing.  Nothing at all.  but you always make it seem like we're the one's who are wrong when we express ours.  everytime there's a dennis thread you're always arguing with one of us.  I don't mind the different opinions (I actually learn from them and have looked at the opposing side) but you don't try to see our side unless Jon Stebbins makes a post...

Pretty much this.

Overrating Dennis to the point of obsession will not win people over to "team Denny"

there is no "team Denny"

My opinion disagrees with your opinion. Your opinion disagrees with my opinion. It takes two (or more...) to make an argument.


I know what your side is - you love and appreciate Dennis, and you want more people to feel the way you do.
Perhaps you could say Jon is a bit more articulate, but he hasn't caused any change in my opinions.

Thanks Ed. You would know as well as anybody about what I'm getting at. You were there.

They each were great in there own way. Lets leave it at that.


Does anybody think its f***ed up that BRIAN received the Kennedy center honor and NOT The Beach Boys...?

Pete Townshend & Roger Daltrey received it. So did Robert Plant, Jimmy Page & John Paul Jones.
Think about it.

my side is--people don't have to love everything Dennis ever wrote, but attacking him with whatever Brian has done is pointless because 1. Brian and Dennis had two different styles.  2. Dennis is gone now and his talent never reached it's full potential thanks to battling personal demons and insecurity due to the lack of support from the band at the time.  Everyone knew Brian had a major talent but Dennis had to prove himself to everyone

"Team Denny" doesn't exist, it's a figment of SMiLE Brian's imagination.
And he has some nerve in making that comment. He does the exact same thing for Brian (To the point of obsession of course), it's not funny. And "Overrating" and "Dennis" DO NOT go together at all!

They sure do!
I'm just gonna go away for a while now...

even down to his username I guess in his world that would be  "obsession" too (only not in his case of course)  ::)

change that to "Underrating" and you're right-- "They sure do!"

Why are you guys getting so defensive, I call it as I hear it. BW wrote whole albums of classics, while DW made the best BBs album never made (POB)

Exactly. That comment was beyond ridiculous. I mean, come on! A lot of people still underrate Dennis around here, it's not like anyone's saying he's better than Brian!

But what keeps cropping up in your arguements is you claim Dennis is a genius just like Brian, then when people disagree with that statement you say it's unfair to compare Dennis to Brian - you can't have it both ways.


Again I'd disagree and say he reached his full potential with POB, no way was he ever going to better that.

Agreed Mike's beard, POB was DW going all out with his songbag that he built in the 1970s.

I said that he was the closest one who came to Brian's level and I said that Brian himself stated that Dennis is a genius in his own right.  "takes one to know one" right?  and what about Bambu?

4th of July is a good song that obviously never reached it's full potential

Same could be said for a lot of Dennis's songs

To be fair, it was never completed.

thank you

I was expressing my opinion since love you is one of my favorite albums from any artist.

Is the scheduled freakout over Denny finished? Got it you love him so do most of us.

I really want to hear the version of 4th of July with the guitar playing the lead. Sounds pretty nest.

Can we get back to talking about 4th of July please?

Listen, different people have different tastes. Sometimes when you really love something/someone, it's hard to comprehend when others feel differently (I've a friend who loathes the Beach Boys and - I've discovered - nothing I ever say, do or play him will change his mind).

Some of us rate Dennis incredibly highly - equal to or almost equal to his big bro - and I rank as one of them. When I listen to River Song or Thoughts of You and then listen to the music Brian was making during the same period... get outta here!! No contest. But this is just my opinion.

Whether i like it or not, other people are always going to feel differently on such matters, no matter how incomprehensible their tastes may seem to me. But that's just the way it is. So just be confident in your own innate good taste, everyone, and don't get so offended by the opinions of strangers. 

Totally agreed. Let's move on.

4th of July really is a nice song

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You can't move on from the original topic, which was about the song 4th Of July...

Totally agreed. Let's move on.

I hear in Denny's songs a "golden touch" like Brian had, though in a different way. That includes 4th of July.

Wen I first started liking the Beach Boys I scorned anything that was post-Smile.

I got the GV 30 year boxset because I heard it had Smile tracks on it, but I gave the whole thing a courtesy listen.

I was ho-hum about everything post-Smile and smirking to myself until I heard 4th of July. I had no idea who wrote it, but it demanded my attention when it came on. I still remember precisely where I was driving when I first heard it back in 2006 (3300 south and 500 east in Salt Lake City). I programmed the cd player to repeat and I listened to it over and over again for the next 45 minutes; my jaw fallen to the floor. yeah, it made an impression.

Yep, sounds about right. I'd liked the BB's for a while when I first bought the GV box but not yet enough to know all the history and who was who etc. So to me 4th of July was just another unreleased track on CD 3. Games Two Can Play and I Just Got My Pay - yeah they were light-hearted melodic fun but pretty throwaway, I could see why they hadn't made it onto an album. Same with HELP. And then.... then 4th of July came on. It just floored me. I was instantly smitten and have remained so ever since. The gorgeous melody, the lyrics and Carl's vocal have - I'm not ashamed to admit - been known to bring tears to my eyes. Ah, it kills me how much this should have been on Surf's Up!! :(

Great posts, Pixletwin and Disney Boy, I can totally relate.

Really good stuff, guys. And Jon (as usual) nailed it. Dennis' gifts to us are arguably more precious because they were so much more unexpected in the wake of the BBs massive success. While the chance of a "second act" spearheaded by Dennis' songs was always remote, most of us grant him the actual, viable possibility of such a phenomenon as the lost artifacts of his work finally become accessible to us.

It's clear right from the get-go, with "Be Still," that Dennis had a separate path in his songwriting that would prove to be as ambitious in its own way as Brian's. We see glimpses of it from time to time, and "4th of July" is another major manifestation of that. It's a terrible shame that such a work, with the depth of feeling, with such a wonderful melody, and with all of the ingredients to be a dynamic ballad (fill in the BBs harmonies inside your head and extrapolate along with me...), is only extant in such a cobbled-together version. We're so very lucky to have that, and we should thank the powers-that-be from the GV box set timeframe for going the extra mile to make it available to us.

Swedish Frog is a genius.

You can't block me.

Again, great song. I must be lucky, I hear no sloppy vocal, I hear no unfinishedness.

I love how well 4th of July fits with the other SU tracks. The whole band was really on the same page with that album, and it is a damn shame neither of Dennis' songs made it...the album is much better with 4th and WIBNTLA in the tracklist.

Whenever I read these kinda debates about 2 sides convincing one another, I can't help finding 'em funny (no irony). You all did that with so much effort, in a life-determining way.

Dennis is by no means a genius & drastically differs from Brian. The fact that the latter gets compared to Mozart says sth., even though some would find it silly as well.

Ditto. If it weren't for reading about it on here, I'd never have had any indication that the song was unfinished or that Carl's vocal was 'rough'. I think sometimes people readjust their radars once they learn extra info about a song i.e. 'oh, it was just a demo was it? Hmmm now that I listen to it again I can hear that...'

Carl's delivery bothered me the first time I heard it. Learning that it was a scratch vocal, things made sense.

This.

Though I still don't care for the song very much.

Melody's weak, singing isn't strong, production is bland and typical, and the lyrics are cheesy and lifted from "The Star-Spangled" banner (which only makes it cheesier).
All this combined with how the song moves like molasses creates something I really don't care for.

Still, if the song was fully completed, you might think better of the song. It is after all, an incomplete demo.

Carl really liked bland AOR production :-\

It's possible.

The song tries to be very grand and epic, and I don't know if it could necessarily get there to pull it off.

It alludes to the Star Spangled Banner. That's the point.

No, it's not. The track is finished.

I'm with Wuvvly on this one. I could never understand why people would want to re-jig Surf's Up to accommodate this song. WIBNTLA, Sound Of Free or Lady, maybe but 4th of July? Snoozefest imo - probably the reason it stayed in the can.

That's good to learn . So all these people saying 'I'd like it if it'd been finished' are in fact talking utter guff. What they mean is 'I don't like it'.

Why? Saying 'if it had been finished I might like it' means nothing more than that.

Yes, but if it is finished then the comment is meaningless...

I didn't think it was finished until AGD's post. How would anyone else know? There is very little information on these unreleased BB songs, and as far as I knew the song was unfinished. Now I know it's not and it really doesnt make a difference  ;D

Someone wrote this in the comments section under 4th of July on YouTube:

Incredible song. I can't believe any of the Boys would be okay with this and Wouldn't it be Nice to Live Again not being included on "Surfs Up". It makes me really angry at them.

Couldn't have put it better myself. You frequently hear these unreleased tracks and just think 'What were they thinking?????'

I mean the instrumental track is finished. Not the vocal, obviously.

It's absolutely absurd that people think Dennis was a "genius." I'm getting sick of fanboys throwing around that term and mentioning him along with Brian. Get serious. You like Dennis? Fine. You don't have to act like he was something he was not. Very few people in the world can be considered true geniuses, and Brian Wilson was one of only a handful of people in pop music history who can be considered a musical genius.

Here is a list of Dennis songs from between 1968-1972 that the band didn't bother to include on any of their albums:

A Time To Live In Dreams
Mona Kani
San Miguel
Lady
I'm Going Your Way
Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again
4th Of July
Carry me Home

That right there is one incredible album!

It's not just that Dennis' songwriting was so good that his fans rave about him; it's that he was - and in many ways continues to be - vastly under-rated by the group, much of their fan base and the general public at large. This only adds to the appreciation of his talents.

Whether he possessed genius or not is open to debate - he was, in my view, a exceptionally gifted but deeply troubled man - but to dismiss or downplay his songwriting ability when faced with a list such as that above is, well, I won't say what I think it is... Each to their own. But please don't say opinions such as mine are 'absurd'.

All great songs but remember,
(a) Mona Kani was unfinished
(b) Lady was a solo track which did get released
(c) WIBNTLA and 4th of July were pulled by Dennis himself.

Dennis still got 2 to 3 songs of his on each album during the 'band years', roughly the same as every other band member. I see no evidence that he was held back by other members at all. I'd also argue that although not as prolific, Carl, Bruce and Mike all wrote songs as good as Dennis during this period.

Agreed. Off the top of my head here are the few people who I would consider a true musical genius.

Mozart
Harry Partch
Edgar Varse
Brian Wilson
Frank Zappa

and MAYBE
Phil Spector (for his innovations in production)
Bob Dylan (as a lyrical genius at his peak)
David Bowie ( a minor genius in that he could effortlessly flit from style to style and deliver the goods)

Re your points:

a) Fair enough.
b) I said 'here are songs the band didn't bother to include on albums'; Lady was clearly considered for inclusion on at least one album - it's far too gorgeous a ballad to have been dropped.
c) Yeah but the group should have acknowledged the brilliance of these two songs and included them anyway; after all, Brian didn't want SU on Surf's Up but they bunged it on anyway (likewise, Our Prayer and Cabinessence on 20/20). It just seems the group (and Jack Rieley) far too easily went 'Ok we'll leave those songs in the vault' when Dennis started throwing his toys out the pram, whereas they should have appreciated the quality of the songs and how much they'd improve the album and how much the fans deserved to hear such brilliant material.

Who decided to pull Carry Me Home from Holland?
And re no evidence of Dennis not being appreciated? Come on, even Al has gone on record as saying 'we didn't realise what we had'. With a few notable exceptions, the material Dennis was producing was frequently superior to that of his band mates.

But as I pointed out before, Dennis was more prolific than the others so it stands to reason that in the democratic period he would have more songs left off albums. The only other option would be to have the others give up album space to accommodate him and where we majorly differ is that I don't see Dennis as a far better songwriter than Carl, Mike etc...

So, just for arguments sake... You don't think Surf's Up would have been better with the inclusion of 4th of July and WIBNTLA either as well as or in place of some of Mike and Al's contributions? I just think pretty much every album from 20/20 to Holland - excellent as they all are - could have been even better with the inclusion of the aforementioned shelved Dennis tracks. Honestly, you don't think Carry Me Home would've taken Holland onto a whole other layer of brilliance (and I say that someone who adores Holland)?

I think there's a lot of shelved tracks that could have made their albums better - not just Dennis'.

Of course they would have made an excellent record even better but their not being on the record was the choice of Dennis and Dennis alone. They weren't left off because the others didn't want them on. You can't hold them up as examples of Dennis being held back.


I can't see Carry Me Home fitting onto Holland in any way shape or form, as good as it is. And I don't think it's a better song than The Trader, Sail On Sailor, Big Sur, Mount Vernon and Fairway or just about anthing else on the lp. I think Holland is perfect as it stands, if anything I would rather have seen We Got Love kept on the album.


Exactly - Good Time should have found a home long before Love You, where it stuck out like a sore thumb.

I don't want to post in all the few dozen "This Dennis Song Rules!" type threads, as my comment for 4th of July actually applies to quite a bit of Dennis's work. First, though, let's be clear: I don't care whether you like Dennis. Go for it. I don't care whether you hate Dennis. Have fun with that. I don't put the character ahead of the work whenever I can help it, I'd rather try to demythologize as much as possible (even though the mythology of Smile was admittedly a big part of what piqued my interest in the band when I was young and gullible). Nobody's work is always great: not Brian, not Dylan, not Reed, not Holly, not Waits, not Lennon, not McCartney, and certainly not Dennis.

So, my lengthy prelude aside, here's the deal from my perspective: 4th of July isn't very interesting to me. Like a lot of Dennis's work, it's lacking in motion melodically and harmonically. It drags for me, without a lot of rhythmic propulsion, melodic propulsion, just ... meh. Not for me. I'd put Be Still in a similar category, even though it's affecting to some extent. Never Learn Not To Love is actually more interesting to me, with the harmonies moving under the melody and the percussion keeping things going.

Certainly, Dennis has other music that more suits my taste. He also has more music that seems a bit stagnant and maudlin. (He's like Bruce in the latter respect, but way cooler. Way, way cooler. Hell, I'd f*** him.)

I would love to see if people could find a way to talk about the music without questioning one another's intentions or motivations, as if any of our intentions or motivations were remotely important whatsoever.

Great post.

Don't agree entirely, but I see where you're coming from. Pretty much every Dennis song speaks to me, but I always want MORE from 4th of July, and some others. Like Brian, he sometimes walked away a *tad* early (boy, do I understand that tendency).

This song needs harmonies badly, like some other Dennis songs. I sing my own. Does anyone else?

In many ways, Dennis was (please don't kill me) out of step with the rest of the band. More than Bruce? I dunno. But POB sounded more like the Boys than a lot of his BB album material does. It's almost like many of Dennis's post-Sunflower material-- as little of it as there was-- ended up being a "solo" spot anyways.

Except for Carl. Dennis loved him some Carl, as do we all.

Fun question. I don't quite agree with your list. I'd drop Varese and question Partch, while adding Thelonious Monk, Duke Ellington, and Miles Davis. But it's a short list.

And you know what else? It's ok! Great music can and does come from [shudder] non-geniuses!

Bach?

More math than music from my perspective but I'd give him his due.

Obviously the list is woefully inadequate and I'm not going to bother to give it any more thought. It's also clear that we've also only named a couple of "classical" composers and a few pop ones, with my jazz guys tossed in, and called it good, as if that were all there were in music history. Part of the problem with making lists is you start realizing how many people you're leaving off. Which brings one back to the benefit of not worrying so much about it and just listening, enjoying, critiquing, discussing, minus the labels.

Doesn't really answer what I actually said. Here it is again:
c) Yeah but the group should have acknowledged the brilliance of these two songs and included them anyway; after all, Brian didn't want SU on Surf's Up but they bunged it on anyway (likewise, Our Prayer and Cabinessence on 20/20). It just seems the group (and Jack Rieley) far too easily went 'Ok we'll leave those songs in the vault' when Dennis started throwing his toys out the pram, whereas they should have appreciated the quality of the songs and how much they'd improve the album and how much the fans deserved to hear such brilliant material.

As for rating We Got Love over Carry Me Home... Blimey! Well, each to their own... It's all personal taste as we've established. Personally I think CMH is a stunning piece of work whereas WGL is a repetitive run-of-the-mill soft rocker. I think CMH would have been an incredible way to end the album, coming straight after Funky Pretty. Would anyone ever have been able to dismiss the BB's as lightweight ever again had they done that? (deliberate hyperbole, before anyone flies off the handle, but a worthwhile point...)

I don't get all these woulda & shoulda arguments. Nothing stops you to make your own alternate tracklist: wanna have Carry Me Home as a closer? Do it, it's on YT or maybe in your comp already. Mega-easy as this.

Woulda and Shoulda are a very important part of BB history...

Agreed. Though I love both songs in different ways  ;D

Only when it comes to "Smile".

But that's just completely missing the point... It's absolutely not about what I can do now and entirely about what they could have done then.

I still don't see any issue here. No difference who & when made the tracklisting - you now or they then.

But you don't know that. For all we know Carl could have argued with Dennis for days, maybe even weeks to include the two songs. In the end they were just complying with Dennis' wishes.

In an alternate universe, the innocent song "Land Ahoy" would have been released as an album track in 62/63, and "Carry Me Home" gets released as an album track on Holland a decade later, and is seen by fans and critics as the sinister sequel. Overseas for almost a year, but now coming home in a box. It had the potential to be the ultimate song by this band about loss of innocence.

To me, personally, Bambu/Bamboo and the other unreleased tracks from that time(Love Remember Me, Are You Real?, Album Tag Song, etc) are miles beyond POB. I don't think he ever truly reached his peak, due to his addictions. It's so tragic, because I think he could have probably done something even greater than Bamboo.

I'm sure he'd be really pleased you grudgingly approve of him.

You're seriously suggesting Duke Ellington has more musical talent than Bach, the fucking father of modern harmony?  Get back to Youtube, you're off this board!

I'd say Love Remember Me and Baby Blue equal the best of POB but the rest of the Bambu material doen't seem to click with me the same as POB does. I would add that despite his addictions Dennis held onto his songwriting chops long after the others started moving towards a more medicore direction.

A lot of the potential Bambu material was actually written by Carli Munoz, right? Was that because Dennis loved what Carli was doing, or because Dennis was starting to dry up a bit (as a songwriter, of course  :lol) ?

It's a different style of songwriting, but certainly still Dennis' production style.

3 or 4 out of 10 - 12 depending on what Bambu lineup was chosen. Dennis had more than a dozen of his own songs (easily) to choose from, i think it's pretty safe to say he wanted Carli's songs on the record because he liked them, not because he needed them. Carli was doing production or co-production work for Bambu as well, maybe due to Dennis' initial stages of derailment. There are those (hi Howie) who strongly feel that Carli's production touches are aesthetically inferior to Dennis'. I guess a good A/B would be to compare the Dennis productions Tug Of Love, Love Remember Me, He's A Bum, Cocktails - to - the co-Carli's Under The Moonlight, Companion, It's Not Too Late, All Alone. Very different, i think the former batch is a more organic approach, the latter a more technical approach. But with Dennis' touch they somehow work together.

Thanks, Jon

Mind your manners.

One could argue Ellington (with Strayhorn) developed harmony as much as Bach did: neither invented, both furthered. And my post was tongue-in-cheek, a comment on a style that doesn't suit my taste.

JS Bach would actually have agreed with The Captain.  :lol

One could argue that, but one would be wrong.

Read up about the tempered system of tuning. Bach didn't invent this system of tuning, but he showed it's potential in ways that haven't yet been bettered. You can't get more modern than Bach. We're all still playing catch up. All European / western music owes a HUGE debt to Bach. His influence is colossal. If Bach isn't a genius then no one is, sorry.....

(And I was being tongue in cheek with the Youtube comment, as I'm sure you knew.  ;) )

LOLOLOLOLOL.

Listen to the choruses of St. John's Passion. That's some effing music, man. I'll take your point in that Bach was a HUGE fan of arpeggios, but really, you can almost trace a direct lineage from him to Brian Wilson. Bach's vocal arrangements make the similarities abundantly clear.

Really, Bach's best works make Philip Glass and John Adams look like overrated imitators. They just revisited his ideas with modern ears.

Enjoyable comments and I have more to say, but for now I'm still at work and can't really focus on it. Then I'm going to get drunk. But then I'll have plenty more on this topic to say. (I know you're al very thrilled, not to mention grateful for the update.)

Can i just point out that it's maths not math - there's an 's' on the end. Thanks  :)

I'm relatively certain that's a style choice between two commonly accepted options, with the British more typically favoring "maths." (Merriam Webster and, I think, Oxford both allow both.) In that I just spelled "favoring" without the u, I think you can tell I'm not British. I'll stick to math. Not literally--I don't like it, which has all the Bach crowd so bothered--but, well, you get it.

OK, for my Bach - Ellington - Wilson post...

A little bit of background--and I'm not saying this to try to wow anyone, there is nothing particularly remarkable here--I studied music in college, with a major in jazz theory and composition. So obviously that included both traditional (aka "classical") theory, history, etc., as well as my additional jazz-oriented work. I know many of you have done the same, I just throw it out there as context.

Bach is obviously brilliant. My "math" comment was made because much of his work, especially instrumental work, is put together like a logic puzzle. He was a master of using the somewhat formally established rules of counterpoint and harmonic progression to weave melodic ideas in and among one another in the assorted permutations: inversions, retrograde, blah blah blah, as well as just across the underlying chords. That kind of construction is remarkable, yes, but it is within such a strict framework that I have long-since jokingly called him a mathematician rather than a musician. Obviously I'm not so stupid as to think he isn't among the most important musicians of western musical history, whether I am a fan or not. (I'm not especially.)

And while someone posted a comment about a direct link from him through to B Wilson, I think that's way off other than that Bach influenced everyone to some degree, and that Wilson has stated an affinity for Bach. Wilson's harmonies and underlying chord structures are remarkable, but they are nothing like the more rigidly structured, formal progressions and relationships between parts that you find with Bach. Wilson breaks rules all the time (because he didn't know them, for one, and because he did whatever he wanted as long as he thought it sounded good). So parallel perfect intervals? No problem for BW, whereas Bach would have grimaced.

Wilson's harmonic language was also far more akin to Ellington's, which incorporated concepts not yet touched in Bach's time. The extensions (of the sort that Sean Lennon laughably called complex and beyond others in the Imagination doc, I think it was) that BW used in his vocal and instrumental arrangements were commonplace in jazz, which is of course where BW got them. In other words, where Bach's language consisted mostly of root-third-fifth and sometimes seventh, with suspensions in there for tension, Ellington's would consist of root-third-(often not fifth unless it was lowered or raised because otherwise it's implied and muddies things up)-seventh just as the obvious base, then ninth and thirteenth, or sometimes an eleventh in a minor situation, with the raised and lowered tones as mentioned in the parenthetical about the fifth. It was far more complicated harmonically.

Elliongton, like BW, melded disparate musical forms. He, like BW, took complex arrangements and presented them to the public in an accessible, digestible way. He wrote parts for the distinct talents of his current musicians, bringing together and showcasing musical personalities in the work. And of course he was highly influential on the pseudo-jazz, or jazz-influenced, composers that directly inspired BW, such as Gershwin. Whatever BW may think, I would say he is desended more directly from Ellington than from Bach. There is a strong argument to be made that he's the most important American composer of all time. Ellington's vocabulary was a huge influence on the entire musical world throughout the middle two quartiles of the 20th century.

At best tangentially related but interesting to me, though, is our inherent biases. The original poster didn't include a single jazz, blues, or traditionally "black" musical form composer or performer as a genius. That might just be lack of familiarity, or a dislike. I was quick to shove off Bach because Baroque music just isn't to my taste. Nobody has mentioned a rapper yet, but lovers of the genre would undoubtedly name some rappers as geniuses. A couple "classical" composers, an avant garde composer (Partch), and a few pop composers, plus my added-in jazz guys. Is that it? Of course not. What about folk, country, R&B, gospel, metal, EDM, or whatever other genre you want to dive into. The lists are impossibilities, clearly slanted to taste. As someone earlier said, there isn't a real line at which anyone can say "genius." There's no objective point total to be reached. It is complicated even more by musical types being so different; you may as well throw in non-musical geniuses--they're just as easy (or difficult) to compare for rights to use the word.

So, yeah, 4th of July. Some people like it.

4th, like LPR, has this wavy background sound (sounds like a lot of pianos or something)

how did they record and produce that? Perhaps Stephen Desper might know?

.

Error corrected.

Great response, cap'n. You're right in that Brian's harmonies and arrangements could be quite jazzy. That said, I think when you listen to a song like "Heroes and Villains", the movement of the vocal arrangement against the repetitive musical backing is very Bach IMO.  Maybe it's fairer to say that you could trace a direct link from Bach to certain elements of Brian's musical palette. Part of Brian's genius was his ability to mix pop, jazz, and classical, rather than pigeonholing himself into a single genre. I certainly won't deny that you can link other elements of Brian's music to someone like Ellington.

DW recorded that at half speed, then played it back at normal speed*, according to the Ultimate Christmas liners.

[* or possibly the other way around]

So...

01.   Don’t Go Near The Water
02.   Long Promised Road
03.   Take A Load Off Your Feet
04.   Lady
05.   Disney Girls (1957)
06.   Student Demonstration Time
07.   Fourth of July
08.   Feel Flows
09.   Lookin’ At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song)
10.   Big Sur
11.   A Day In The Life Of A Tree
12.   (Wouldn‘t It Be Nice) To Live Again     
13.    Til I Die
14.   Surf’s Up 

Or wibntla after Til I Die?

Captain, thanks for the great post just above (i won't quote it in full) :)

Do you have an opinion on Thelonious Monk? He's my favourite jazz musician (and the furthest beyond that totally subjective line called 'genius'), and, though i have no formal training in music, he strikes me as 'mathematical', working out logical puzzles in his music. If you'll allow the oversimplification, a meeting point between Bach and Ellington.

I have read Robin D.G. Kelley's excellent Monk bio, and he discusses quite a bit of chord theory, how Monk would spend hours working out how to write tunes using chords containing only seconds and ninths, and pretty much 'imply' the entire chord.

i have a small but growing Jazz collection, where would be a good place to start with Thelonious Monk?

If you have a small collection, you've already started. What do you already like? Go to the next thing from that.
Oh, and when you reach Monk, add it all.
Explore. Make your own discoveries. Also, it's good to have listened to things you don't end up liking.

Thelonious Monk Quartet Live at the Five Spot: Discovery!

Blows my mind every time...

I consider Thelonious Monk the greatest musical genius of them all.

I recommend all of his 50s recordings. His Columbia albums from the 60s are great, but they're largely re-recordings of songs he'd written in the 50s and earlier... although Monk's Dream is a favorite.

other favorites:
Genius of Modern Music 1 & 2 (vol. 1 was recorded in 1947)
Thelonious Monk Trio
Thelonious Monk & Sonny Rollins
Brilliant Corners
Monk's Music
Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane

also Monk and Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall, recorded in 1957 but never released until 2005. superb!


I love how a thread about the song 4th of July has morphed into a discussion on Monk!  :smokin

I'd say any of these are a great place to start. My personal favourite of them is …Trio. I love the versions of Blue Monk and Nutty.

I'll also add Solo Monk. He recorded 3 solo piano albums and this is the best, the most adventurous, humorous, funky. It's pure undiluted Thelonious. For a taster, check out his off-centre take on Dinah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKAMNaGO5Y4

I've played some of his stuff where i work and people (those lacking musical taste) complained he couldn't play. That's like saying Picasso couldn't draw because the eyes look wonky.

i'm glad there's other Monk fans on this board :)

I've also been trying to get into Thelonious Monk.
I've listened to his album of Ellington covers which was mostly good, but I felt like the songs went on for too long. I think it could have been a much tighter album.

I like those four LP Jazz comps from the 1970s.

I love the 'Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane' album. Check that out sometime.

Loaf, thanks for the nice words. I love Thelonious Monk, and absolutely believe he's among the half-dozen most important American musicians ever.

As to what of his I'd recommend, I second bossaroo on Thelonious Monk & Sonny Rollins, Brilliant Corners, ...with John Coltrane. I'd add his Ellington covers album and his album with Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers. But he's pretty fantastic, anywhere you start is a good place to start. Like many of the greats, wherever you begin, there is somewhere to go beyond that and you'll learn from (and enjoy) it.

Maybe I'll build some ambition and start a Monk thread in the General Music forum.  Not tonight though.

I see definite parallels between Monk and Brian.

both are considered geniuses, with a complex and unique understanding of chords, harmony, and the keyboard.

both are considered "eccentric" (even a little crazy) and child-like to a certain degree.
both suffered from mental illness but were actually more "normal" than a lot of people think.

both were committed and possibly given electro-shock therapy.
both were prescribed thorazine and subsequently became much less prolific.

both retreated from playing and from the spotlight. Monk never to return.



could you imagine a Brian Wilson vocal arrangement of 'Round Midnight or Ruby My Dear?  :tm

To let this topic live out its days on topic while Monk fans (or those curious) go that way, I've begun a Monk thread here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17917.msg462863.html#new