4th of July is one HELL of a song.

[the captain]

It's absolutely absurd that people think Dennis was a "genius." I'm getting sick of fanboys throwing around that term and mentioning him along with Brian. Get serious. You like Dennis? Fine. You don't have to act like he was something he was not. Very few people in the world can be considered true geniuses, and Brian Wilson was one of only a handful of people in pop music history who can be considered a musical genius.

Agreed. Off the top of my head here are the few people who I would consider a true musical genius.

Mozart
Harry Partch
Edgar Varse
Brian Wilson
Frank Zappa

and MAYBE
Phil Spector (for his innovations in production)
Bob Dylan (as a lyrical genius at his peak)
David Bowie ( a minor genius in that he could effortlessly flit from style to style and deliver the goods)

Fun question. I don't quite agree with your list. I'd drop Varese and question Partch, while adding Thelonious Monk, Duke Ellington, and Miles Davis. But it's a short list.

And you know what else? It's ok! Great music can and does come from [shudder] non-geniuses!

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Bach?

[the captain]

Bach?

More math than music from my perspective but I'd give him his due.

Obviously the list is woefully inadequate and I'm not going to bother to give it any more thought. It's also clear that we've also only named a couple of "classical" composers and a few pop ones, with my jazz guys tossed in, and called it good, as if that were all there were in music history. Part of the problem with making lists is you start realizing how many people you're leaving off. Which brings one back to the benefit of not worrying so much about it and just listening, enjoying, critiquing, discussing, minus the labels.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

But as I pointed out before, Dennis was more prolific than the others so it stands to reason that in the democratic period he would have more songs left off albums. The only other option would be to have the others give up album space to accommodate him and where we majorly differ is that I don't see Dennis as a far better songwriter than Carl, Mike etc...

So, just for arguments sake... You don't think Surf's Up would have been better with the inclusion of 4th of July and WIBNTLA either as well as or in place of some of Mike and Al's contributions?

Of course they would have made an excellent record even better but their not being on the record was the choice of Dennis and Dennis alone. They weren't left off because the others didn't want them on. You can't hold them up as examples of Dennis being held back.

Doesn't really answer what I actually said. Here it is again:
c) Yeah but the group should have acknowledged the brilliance of these two songs and included them anyway; after all, Brian didn't want SU on Surf's Up but they bunged it on anyway (likewise, Our Prayer and Cabinessence on 20/20). It just seems the group (and Jack Rieley) far too easily went 'Ok we'll leave those songs in the vault' when Dennis started throwing his toys out the pram, whereas they should have appreciated the quality of the songs and how much they'd improve the album and how much the fans deserved to hear such brilliant material.

As for rating We Got Love over Carry Me Home... Blimey! Well, each to their own... It's all personal taste as we've established. Personally I think CMH is a stunning piece of work whereas WGL is a repetitive run-of-the-mill soft rocker. I think CMH would have been an incredible way to end the album, coming straight after Funky Pretty. Would anyone ever have been able to dismiss the BB's as lightweight ever again had they done that? (deliberate hyperbole, before anyone flies off the handle, but a worthwhile point...)

[RangeRoverA1]

I don't get all these woulda & shoulda arguments. Nothing stops you to make your own alternate tracklist: wanna have Carry Me Home as a closer? Do it, it's on YT or maybe in your comp already. Mega-easy as this.

[Niko]

Woulda and Shoulda are a very important part of BB history...

[bluesno1fann]

But as I pointed out before, Dennis was more prolific than the others so it stands to reason that in the democratic period he would have more songs left off albums. The only other option would be to have the others give up album space to accommodate him and where we majorly differ is that I don't see Dennis as a far better songwriter than Carl, Mike etc...

So, just for arguments sake... You don't think Surf's Up would have been better with the inclusion of 4th of July and WIBNTLA either as well as or in place of some of Mike and Al's contributions?

Of course they would have made an excellent record even better but their not being on the record was the choice of Dennis and Dennis alone. They weren't left off because the others didn't want them on. You can't hold them up as examples of Dennis being held back.

Doesn't really answer what I actually said. Here it is again:
c) Yeah but the group should have acknowledged the brilliance of these two songs and included them anyway; after all, Brian didn't want SU on Surf's Up but they bunged it on anyway (likewise, Our Prayer and Cabinessence on 20/20). It just seems the group (and Jack Rieley) far too easily went 'Ok we'll leave those songs in the vault' when Dennis started throwing his toys out the pram, whereas they should have appreciated the quality of the songs and how much they'd improve the album and how much the fans deserved to hear such brilliant material.

As for rating We Got Love over Carry Me Home... Blimey! Well, each to their own... It's all personal taste as we've established. Personally I think CMH is a stunning piece of work whereas WGL is a repetitive run-of-the-mill soft rocker. I think CMH would have been an incredible way to end the album, coming straight after Funky Pretty. Would anyone ever have been able to dismiss the BB's as lightweight ever again had they done that? (deliberate hyperbole, before anyone flies off the handle, but a worthwhile point...)

Agreed. Though I love both songs in different ways 

[RangeRoverA1]

Woulda and Shoulda are a very important part of BB history...

Only when it comes to "Smile".

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I don't get all these woulda & shoulda arguments. Nothing stops you to make your own alternate tracklist: wanna have Carry Me Home as a closer? Do it, it's on YT or maybe in your comp already. Mega-easy as this.

But that's just completely missing the point... It's absolutely not about what I can do now and entirely about what they could have done then.

[RangeRoverA1]

I still don't see any issue here. No difference who & when made the tracklisting - you now or they then.

[Mike's Beard]

Doesn't really answer what I actually said. Here it is again:
c) Yeah but the group should have acknowledged the brilliance of these two songs and included them anyway; after all, Brian didn't want SU on Surf's Up but they bunged it on anyway (likewise, Our Prayer and Cabinessence on 20/20). It just seems the group (and Jack Rieley) far too easily went 'Ok we'll leave those songs in the vault' when Dennis started throwing his toys out the pram, whereas they should have appreciated the quality of the songs and how much they'd improve the album and how much the fans deserved to hear such brilliant material.

But you don't know that. For all we know Carl could have argued with Dennis for days, maybe even weeks to include the two songs. In the end they were just complying with Dennis' wishes.

[CenturyDeprived]

But as I pointed out before, Dennis was more prolific than the others so it stands to reason that in the democratic period he would have more songs left off albums. The only other option would be to have the others give up album space to accommodate him and where we majorly differ is that I don't see Dennis as a far better songwriter than Carl, Mike etc...

So, just for arguments sake... You don't think Surf's Up would have been better with the inclusion of 4th of July and WIBNTLA either as well as or in place of some of Mike and Al's contributions?

Of course they would have made an excellent record even better but their not being on the record was the choice of Dennis and Dennis alone. They weren't left off because the others didn't want them on. You can't hold them up as examples of Dennis being held back.

Doesn't really answer what I actually said. Here it is again:
c) Yeah but the group should have acknowledged the brilliance of these two songs and included them anyway; after all, Brian didn't want SU on Surf's Up but they bunged it on anyway (likewise, Our Prayer and Cabinessence on 20/20). It just seems the group (and Jack Rieley) far too easily went 'Ok we'll leave those songs in the vault' when Dennis started throwing his toys out the pram, whereas they should have appreciated the quality of the songs and how much they'd improve the album and how much the fans deserved to hear such brilliant material.

As for rating We Got Love over Carry Me Home... Blimey! Well, each to their own... It's all personal taste as we've established. Personally I think CMH is a stunning piece of work whereas WGL is a repetitive run-of-the-mill soft rocker. I think CMH would have been an incredible way to end the album, coming straight after Funky Pretty. Would anyone ever have been able to dismiss the BB's as lightweight ever again had they done that? (deliberate hyperbole, before anyone flies off the handle, but a worthwhile point...)

In an alternate universe, the innocent song "Land Ahoy" would have been released as an album track in 62/63, and "Carry Me Home" gets released as an album track on Holland a decade later, and is seen by fans and critics as the sinister sequel. Overseas for almost a year, but now coming home in a box. It had the potential to be the ultimate song by this band about loss of innocence.

[Jay]

my side is--people don't have to love everything Dennis ever wrote, but attacking him with whatever Brian has done is pointless because 1. Brian and Dennis had two different styles.

But what keeps cropping up in your arguements is you claim Dennis is a genius just like Brian, then when people disagree with that statement you say it's unfair to compare Dennis to Brian - you can't have it both ways.

  2. Dennis is gone now and his talent never reached it's full potential thanks to battling personal demons and insecurity due to the lack of support from the band at the time.  

Again I'd disagree and say he reached his full potential with POB, no way was he ever going to better that.

To me, personally, Bambu/Bamboo and the other unreleased tracks from that time(Love Remember Me, Are You Real?, Album Tag Song, etc) are miles beyond POB. I don't think he ever truly reached his peak, due to his addictions. It's so tragic, because I think he could have probably done something even greater than Bamboo.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Bach?

More math than music from my perspective but I'd give him his due.

I'm sure he'd be really pleased you grudgingly approve of him.

You're seriously suggesting Duke Ellington has more musical talent than Bach, the fucking father of modern harmony?  Get back to Youtube, you're off this board!

[Mike's Beard]

To me, personally, Bambu/Bamboo and the other unreleased tracks from that time(Love Remember Me, Are You Real?, Album Tag Song, etc) are miles beyond POB. I don't think he ever truly reached his peak, due to his addictions. It's so tragic, because I think he could have probably done something even greater than Bamboo.

I'd say Love Remember Me and Baby Blue equal the best of POB but the rest of the Bambu material doen't seem to click with me the same as POB does. I would add that despite his addictions Dennis held onto his songwriting chops long after the others started moving towards a more medicore direction.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

A lot of the potential Bambu material was actually written by Carli Munoz, right? Was that because Dennis loved what Carli was doing, or because Dennis was starting to dry up a bit (as a songwriter, of course  ) ?

It's a different style of songwriting, but certainly still Dennis' production style.

[Jon Stebbins]

A lot of the potential Bambu material was actually written by Carli Munoz, right? Was that because Dennis loved what Carli was doing, or because Dennis was starting to dry up a bit (as a songwriter, of course  ) ?

It's a different style of songwriting, but certainly still Dennis' production style.

3 or 4 out of 10 - 12 depending on what Bambu lineup was chosen. Dennis had more than a dozen of his own songs (easily) to choose from, i think it's pretty safe to say he wanted Carli's songs on the record because he liked them, not because he needed them. Carli was doing production or co-production work for Bambu as well, maybe due to Dennis' initial stages of derailment. There are those (hi Howie) who strongly feel that Carli's production touches are aesthetically inferior to Dennis'. I guess a good A/B would be to compare the Dennis productions Tug Of Love, Love Remember Me, He's A Bum, Cocktails - to - the co-Carli's Under The Moonlight, Companion, It's Not Too Late, All Alone. Very different, i think the former batch is a more organic approach, the latter a more technical approach. But with Dennis' touch they somehow work together.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Thanks, Jon

[the captain]

Bach?

More math than music from my perspective but I'd give him his due.

I'm sure he'd be really pleased you grudgingly approve of him.

You're seriously suggesting Duke Ellington has more musical talent than Bach, the fucking father of modern harmony?  Get back to Youtube, you're off this board!

Mind your manners.

One could argue Ellington (with Strayhorn) developed harmony as much as Bach did: neither invented, both furthered. And my post was tongue-in-cheek, a comment on a style that doesn't suit my taste.

[pixletwin]

JS Bach would actually have agreed with The Captain. 

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Bach?

More math than music from my perspective but I'd give him his due.

I'm sure he'd be really pleased you grudgingly approve of him.

You're seriously suggesting Duke Ellington has more musical talent than Bach, the fucking father of modern harmony?  Get back to Youtube, you're off this board!

Mind your manners.

One could argue Ellington (with Strayhorn) developed harmony as much as Bach did: neither invented, both furthered. And my post was tongue-in-cheek, a comment on a style that doesn't suit my taste.

One could argue that, but one would be wrong.

Read up about the tempered system of tuning. Bach didn't invent this system of tuning, but he showed it's potential in ways that haven't yet been bettered. You can't get more modern than Bach. We're all still playing catch up. All European / western music owes a HUGE debt to Bach. His influence is colossal. If Bach isn't a genius then no one is, sorry.....

(And I was being tongue in cheek with the Youtube comment, as I'm sure you knew.   )

[Mr. Cohen]

More math than music from my perspective but I'd give him his due.

LOLOLOLOLOL.

Listen to the choruses of St. John's Passion. That's some effing music, man. I'll take your point in that Bach was a HUGE fan of arpeggios, but really, you can almost trace a direct lineage from him to Brian Wilson. Bach's vocal arrangements make the similarities abundantly clear.

[Mr. Cohen]

Really, Bach's best works make Philip Glass and John Adams look like overrated imitators. They just revisited his ideas with modern ears.

[the captain]

Enjoyable comments and I have more to say, but for now I'm still at work and can't really focus on it. Then I'm going to get drunk. But then I'll have plenty more on this topic to say. (I know you're al very thrilled, not to mention grateful for the update.)

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Bach?

More math than music from my perspective but I'd give him his due.

I'm sure he'd be really pleased you grudgingly approve of him.

You're seriously suggesting Duke Ellington has more musical talent than Bach, the fucking father of modern harmony?  Get back to Youtube, you're off this board!

Mind your manners.

One could argue Ellington (with Strayhorn) developed harmony as much as Bach did: neither invented, both furthered. And my post was tongue-in-cheek, a comment on a style that doesn't suit my taste.

Can i just point out that it's maths not math - there's an 's' on the end. Thanks