4th of July is one HELL of a song.

[Mike's Beard]

Dennis never composed anything like "I Get Around" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice".

Umm... there's I'm Going Your Way and Slip On Through, which both beat I Get Around IMO.

Maybe you like those two songs more but any music theory teacher would tell you that the structure of I Get Around is far more complex as are the vocal arrangments. Not to mention a vastly more inventive production.

I think Dennis wrote some fantastic stuff under his brother's shadow but he's not a genius. If we all started tagging all our favourite songwriters as 'geniuses' the term would become meaningless.

[Please delete my account]

There is no exact definition of genius that everyone agrees on so it's pointless arguing about it.

[bluesno1fann]

There is no exact definition of genius that everyone agrees on so it's pointless arguing about it.

Agreed.

Dennis never composed anything like "I Get Around" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice".

Umm... there's I'm Going Your Way and Slip On Through, which both beat I Get Around IMO.

Maybe you like those two songs more but any music theory teacher would tell you that the structure of I Get Around is far more complex as are the vocal arrangments. Not to mention a vastly more inventive production.

I think Dennis wrote some fantastic stuff under his brother's shadow but he's not a genius. If we all started tagging all our favourite songwriters as 'geniuses' the term would become meaningless.

You have a point. Though I still agree with Retrokid.

[halblaineisgood]

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[Disney Boy (1985)]

I would say Dennis was an exceptionally gifted songwriter - and a very natural and organic one also. Genius? He certainly had his moments.

[halblaineisgood]

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[halblaineisgood]

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[mtaber]

Mike's Beard... Is a genius!!

[Mike's Beard]

I am? That's news to me and I guess anyone who knows me.

[Nicko1234]

4th of July would have been a worthy addition to Surf`s Up but it`s not one of Dennis`s strongest songs imo.

Dennis certainly showed his ability as a songwriter but I would have to agree that one good solo album and the Beach Boys songs he recorded in the 70s (as fine as some of them are) are not evidence of a genius.

[RioGrande]

I'ts obvious that the period Dennis was loved in this board is over. 

[alf wiedersehen]

I'ts obvious that the period Dennis was loved in this board is over. 

Oh, what an overreaction. He doesn't have to be a genius to be a talented songwriter. There are so many talented songwriters that aren't geniuses, and it's no slight against them. The geniuses are just lucky to have been gifted in such  a way.

Carl wasn't a genius, but I still love him and his songs - or is the period of Carl loving over, too?

[drbeachboy]

I'ts obvious that the period Dennis was loved in this board is over.  

How do you equate not calling Dennis a musical genius with no love? Dennis had few great songs, but he was not in the same league as Brian. Not too many are.

[Moon Dawg]

  Although influenced by Brain (especially the SMILE era) Dennis developed an independent and organic songwriting vision that was distinct from Brian's. This is a trick none of the others quite mastered IMO. Dennis was a great talent, but I would not describe him as a "genius."

 "I Get Around" is classic early Beach Boys and Brian's first avant-garde production IMO. It beats "Slip On Through."

[Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll]

Dennis never composed anything like "I Get Around" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice".

Umm... there's I'm Going Your Way and Slip On Through, which both beat I Get Around IMO.

And as for WIBN, there's WIBNTLA, and River Song, and Thoughts Of You, and etc.

I can understand if a lot of people disagree, but there are people who would agree.

I'm Going Your Way BETTER THAN I Get Around!!!

Well that's just.....OUTRAGEOUS! Someone call the taste

[bossaroo]

has this really devolved into an argument over who is/isn't a genius?

it's highly subjective. like the word "beautiful" it means different things to different people and there is no accepted definition or qualification. therefore if someone feels that Dennis was a genius, that is their opinion and trying to dissuade them is futile and pointless.

Daryl Dragon marveled at Dennis's ability to play piano and write songs, seemingly without study or years of practice. he seemed to think Dennis had some higher, natural ability that others have to work very hard to accomplish. this could certainly be described as genius.

just because Dennis didn't write I Get Around or Pet Sounds doesn't mean he wasn't some kind of genius in his own right, as Brian himself stated.

[Mikie]

I'ts obvious that the period Dennis was loved in this board is over. 

No chance of that ever happening here. Too many hardcore Dennis Wilson fans, including the author of a book about him that resides on these premises. In spite of Dennis' shortcomings on a personal level, his wonderful music will always prevail. The consensus here is that he's the second most talented Beach Boy. Forever and ever, amen.

[Mike's Beard]

Lots of love and respect for Dennis on this board, doesn't mean we have to big him up to something he wasn't. Any time someone insists on equaling his talents to that of Brian's a bunch of people will disagree.

[Jon Stebbins]

Anything relating to genius art is obviously subjective territory, but I do have the opinion that there are genius elements in the Beach Boys music with Brian being responsible for the vast majority of them. Inventiveness and originality are the keys, but it goes deeper, with Pet Sounds and Smile you are talking about tapping into spiritual levels of creativity...depth of art that not only relies on the creative mind, but also the heart and soul, or whatever is the human conduit to a spiritual realm. This takes the music to a level beyond great music, and towards something closer to human connection and love. I think this is where the real genius exists in Brian's music, and I think it is what Daryl Dragon was trying to explain about Dennis' ability as well. These are not trained or highly educated musicians, but they have an innate ability to tap into something that is truly genuine and moving. And it can be subtle, just in the way they seek, and frame chords, inversions, the choice of bass notes, the way they melt the melody into the transitions as if they are obviously inherent to the structure, like fingers in a glove. These are the moments that make the hair on your neck stand up, or goosebumps, or even tears form just by listening. Can you imagine having the gift to do that, and that gift is completely organic? It's gotta be genius on some level, spiritual genius at minimum.

I really hate it when something has to be compared to something else to argue whether it's good or great. I would defer to the people who watched these guys at their craft, in the creative mode, how they were conduits to an unexplainable realm and how elements beyond explanation flowed from them. Minds were blown by Brian, and Dennis...and the other guys as well at various points in their creative life. Call it genius, call it God, call it love...whatever it is it never stops moving those who hear it and connect with it. The Wilsons gave it to us, and we're better off for experiencing it. Maybe Beach Boys music is what immortality sounds like.

[RioGrande]

Great post, Jon.

[alf wiedersehen]

You're right, Jon, they were truly tapping into something special.

And I don't mean to necessarily compare the two, it's just that Brian is perhaps the closest example I can think of to a true musical genius of his and our time*. I see the word applied a lot to musicians, and I sort of use to buy into it, but I just don't believe it anymore. John Lennon, Roger Waters, Pete Townshend... these guys just are not geniuses.

A genius is a "rare and remarkable" thing (according to some dictionary) and we're truly lucky to have that in Brian. "Genius" does not equal "very talented", which you can be without being a "genius". Not everyone has to be a genius - it's not an insult, it's just how I see it.

I've spoken my piece and it's clear I won't change opinions. I admire people's stubbornness, as it is a quality I'm often affixed with myself. I hope it's clear that I'm not speaking out of malice, but a genuine viewpoint that the word is simply used too often - just by it's definition, "genius" can't be something so common.

*Excluding jazz and classical music, both of which I unfortunately know nothing about.

[retrokid67]

all I can say is thank you bossaroo and Jon Stebbins.  it's just really annoying to me that when people express admiration for Dennis someone has to come behind and say "Brian was better" (or something along those lines).  We all know by now that Brian is/was a genius.  Both of them had two different styles and reached people in different ways.

[urbanite]

You can't listen to Good Vibrations and not marvel at how awesome it was for 1966, that it was amazing and not a one hit wonder.  I think Dennis was very talented, WIBNTLA is very good, but I've never listened to one of his songs and been blown away like GV and other BW productions.

[retrokid67]

You can't listen to Good Vibrations and not marvel at how awesome it was for 1966, that it was amazing and not a one hit wonder.  I think Dennis was very talented, WIBNTLA is very good, but I've never listened to one of his songs and been blown away like GV and other BW productions.

that's all good, but as I recall when people heard WIBNTLA for the first time a lot of people were blown away by that too.  and I feel sorry for those who had to wait 42 years to hear that

[bluesno1fann]

You can't listen to Good Vibrations and not marvel at how awesome it was for 1966, that it was amazing and not a one hit wonder.  I think Dennis was very talented, WIBNTLA is very good, but I've never listened to one of his songs and been blown away like GV and other BW productions.

I'll have to admit that I was pretty blown away with WIBNTLA, and that never happened to me with GV. Though that could be because I knew the song for so many years, and it was (and still is I think) used for a commercial for a electronic retail company called The Good Guys.