Phil Spector on Brian Wilson

[kwan_dk]

He got dumber during the 70's as well - The Nilsson/Cher track is especially telling when put against his own version from '66, done with Ike and Tina. So much less finesse, just plodding drums and saxophones. I think that the Cohen, Dion and mid 70's Lennon sessions just sound drunk and half assed. I love them, but they aren't comparable to his heyday. He lost it somewhere after Sometime In New York City.... The Ramones record was really different for him (probably because they were so opposed to his usual tricks), and then he just.... stopped.

Wow, I really disagree. To my ears the 70s material radiates a lot of emotion with that slowed down approach. Heck, I even prefer the Cher/Nilsson 'A Love like Yours' to Tina (and Ike, though he was only billed for contractual reasons) But you're right that he didn't exactly break any new ground as compared to the 60s so from that approach, yes, he didn't really evolve...

By the way, people tend to forget that the Ramones wasn't his final project. He produced two songs for Startsailor's 'Silence is Easy' album just prior to the Clarkson case. Some Spector affectionados dismiss the 'Silence is Easy' single but I think it's really, really cool. Could easily haven been even more Spectoresque though - according to interviews back then the group members told how they had to keep Spector from putting to much echo, glockenspiels, chimes and what have you not on the final recordings. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EImPJ2CM7xg

[Mike's Beard]

I think Phil did a top notch top with "All Things Must Pass". Of course it didn't hurt that he had first rate material to work with.

[BJL]

Not an exact quote (don't have the doc around me right now): "Phil had these layered sounds... But it sounded angry. Phil's thing was anger. Brian's was love."

I don't think Spector's music was really about anger.  More a sense of desperation.  Also, "Do I Love You," in my opinion, is one of the most love-filled records I've ever heard.  The overall sound just seems infused with love.  And some of his ballads, like When I Saw You, are really very gentle.

[hypehat]

I see what Melcher means. Those records are aggressively huge, although this obviously doesn't apply to his ballads - very tender, especially 'Love How You Love Me'. Ever heard this version? Nino was a sideman of Spectors.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbhbc1zt31E But yeah, the energy of his 'rock' songs is overpowering. But it's not metal, for christs sake.

I think the anger thing is slightly reductive, though. Be My Baby or River Deep aren't angry records, they're thrilling. They capture the sheer rush of joy love gives you. I can only speak for myself, but i tend to listen to Spector records the most when I have a crush or something, as opposed to Brian records which i can listen to any time.

The 70's records are good, but they're just sloppy. Of course, this sloppiness results in ridiculously botched experiments in sound like 'He's Got The Whole World' by Dion, which sounds like Phil passed out on the mixing desk and phased the entire damn thing  See what I mean? In a way, Spector in that condition would have produced an utterly huge punk record, but by the time he got The Ramones he was too drunk or crazy, i guess.

As an aside, I am amazed how much John Lennon picked up from Phil in terms of production. Listening to his Nilsson production, p*ssy Cats, or Mind Games, for instance, and it's bizarre how little of George Martins production style he used....

[Myk Luhv]

In an alternate life, I would have been one of those awkward go-go dancers on these 1960s teen music variety shows that dance the same way to every song no matter how ill-fitting...

[kwan_dk]

Reviving this thread for a question.

While looking through some old threads I came across this post from board member Forget Marie:

Brian met Spector more than once.  He played on a Spector session, but was kicked off for not being able to sight read fast enough and not getting the rhythm right (if I'm not mistaken, it was for Brian's own song, "Things Are Changing for the Better").  He has said that Phil shared some tricks of the trade with him when he attended Phil's sessions (which he descibed as piercingly loud), and Phil also attended at least one Beach Boys session, or at least popped in briefly.  Brian also met Spector in the '80s, possibly as part of Landy's therapy, visiting Phil's house to prove that Phil was harmless.  Little did they know!  Brian bumped into Phil at Lakers' games the past few years, though obviously not recently.

This is very interesting. I've never ever heard about Spector sitting in on a BB session before - or for that matter about Brian visiting him in the mansion as part of any Landy therapy. Does anyone here know more about this? I certainly don't recall reading about it in the books on BB or Spector I've read.

[Curtis Leon]

Phil was never a kind person by any chance - He let his feelings show, and he let them show hard. It's possible he might've been a bit more than jealous of Brian, as well. Considering Brian is considered to be one of the biggest geniuses of the time, and Pet Sounds to be one of the greatest achievements of the era. And what's Phil most remembered for in the public eye, nowadays? Let it Be and, now, killing a lady. While the Beach Boys' reputation has gone through the mud over the years, people still LISTEN to them. Part of the blame is Phil's inability to adapt to the times - kinda reminds me of Roy Orbison in a way. After 1967, the world didn't need, nor want, the boy-girl romance that Phil offered. He became a recluse, and shut off the public eye. And when he came back, he never had nearly the input he had over the previous records he produced. Let it Be was still mostly recorded by the Beatles, after all, and all Phil could do was some overdubs here and there - and people still debate over the merit of even THOSE. The same, really, with All Things Must Past. He managed to get away with some overdub work, but nothing comparable to his old hits. Not to mention, he had to work in stereo, and he hated stereo. And John's work with Spector further reduced his role. Plastic Ono Band was an underproduced marvel, completely incomparable to the early stuff. Imagine was a little closer to the mark, but I think John was effectively handcuffing Spector. He never really had a chance to shine anymore, in essence.

Brian, on the other hand, COULD adapt to the times. If he hadn't mastered Spector's own playing field by All Summer Long, he definitely did by Today. And he just grew, and grew, and grew, peaking in Pet Sounds. And he changed his formula so much after that, too. SMiLE is vastly different than the Wall of Sound, and after that, he completely abandoned the approach, turning toward underproduction, with a few exceptions. He shined, and shines still, on whatever he does, mainly because he still has the majority of the input.

Both are wonderful producers, and both revolutionized the playing field of the sixties. It's just, Brian managed to grow past the sixties, while Phil couldn't really do much OUTSIDE of it.

[c-man]

Just look at how Brian towers over Phil, yet Phil just brushes him aside...Brian coulda squashed Phil like a little insect!   

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0000C3HHW/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music

[Chris Brown]

Reviving this thread for a question.

While looking through some old threads I came across this post from board member Forget Marie:

Brian met Spector more than once.  He played on a Spector session, but was kicked off for not being able to sight read fast enough and not getting the rhythm right (if I'm not mistaken, it was for Brian's own song, "Things Are Changing for the Better").  He has said that Phil shared some tricks of the trade with him when he attended Phil's sessions (which he descibed as piercingly loud), and Phil also attended at least one Beach Boys session, or at least popped in briefly.  Brian also met Spector in the '80s, possibly as part of Landy's therapy, visiting Phil's house to prove that Phil was harmless.  Little did they know!  Brian bumped into Phil at Lakers' games the past few years, though obviously not recently.

This is very interesting. I've never ever heard about Spector sitting in on a BB session before - or for that matter about Brian visiting him in the mansion as part of any Landy therapy. Does anyone here know more about this? I certainly don't recall reading about it in the books on BB or Spector I've read.

I certainly never heard about the visit with Landy, but I do remember in Brian's "autobiography" a quick story about Phil poking his head in the door during a Beach Boys session, telling Brian "I hear everything," then leaving.  I've never seen that anywhere else though, so who knows how true it actually is.

[kwan_dk]

I certainly never heard about the visit with Landy, but I do remember in Brian's "autobiography" a quick story about Phil poking his head in the door during a Beach Boys session, telling Brian "I hear everything," then leaving.  I've never seen that anywhere else though, so who knows how true it actually is.

Gosh, that's right! I had completely forgotten about that little bit in there. And yeah, it could easily just have been thought up for dramatic purpose considering the overall nature of the book...

[Mr. Cohen]

or for that matter about Brian visiting him in the mansion as part of any Landy therapy.

No, this part is true. There is even an interview on Youtube with Brian and the rest of the BBs on a TV show from the 80s where Brian talks about having met Spector recently. It's really awkward how it comes up. The interviewer asks the BBs about groupies, and Mike says, "I'll toss this hand grenade to Brian."

"Well, groupies are a lot like listening to a Phil Spector record... I met Phil a couple of days ago and we talked about some things..."

And he goes on from there. It's not an exact quote, but that's basically what he said. I wish I knew how to find it again on Youtube.

[c-man]

or for that matter about Brian visiting him in the mansion as part of any Landy therapy.

No, this part is true. There is even an interview on Youtube with Brian and the rest of the BBs on a TV show from the 80s where Brian talks about having met Spector recently. It's really awkward how it comes up. The interviewer asks the BBs about groupies, and Mike says, "I'll toss this hand grenade to Brian."

"Well, groupies are a lot like listening to a Phil Spector record... I met Phil a couple of days ago and we talked about some things..."

And he goes on from there. It's not an exact quote, but that's basically what he said. I wish I knew how to find it again on Youtube.

Funny, I just saw that for the first time the other day!  It's from their 1984 Tonight Show appearance, with hostess Joan Rivers. 

[smile-holland]

if that was indeed said during that interview... here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKg46eth5UU

[Roger Ryan]

...Part of the blame is Phil's inability to adapt to the times - kinda reminds me of Roy Orbison in a way...

Hey, I agree with your assessment of Spector, but what's with the Orbison remark? Ol' Roy had a fantastic two or three years at the end. Had he lived, I think he would have continued having hits. As it is, his widow has managed his catalog very well over the past twenty years.

[Mr. Cohen]

OK, so my quotes were of just a little, but Brian confirms the meeting.

[adamghost]

I always find groupies to be more like a Brian Wilson record myself...but anyway...

I think Melcher's quote is spot-on if you're a music producer, because part of the art of production is getting past the technical aspects of making the music and figuring out what drives the people who make it.  Put another way, let's say you need Joe Guitar to play a certain part, but he keeps overplaying or blowing the take.  As a producer, you can deduce from the person's playing that JG has ego issues, or he's distracted and depressed, and it comes out in his playing.  You can move than on a macro level to how other producers operate and what drives the making of the music.  When thought of that way, Melcher's quote is extremely perceptive and right on the mark...you just kind of have to understand that mindset of understanding what underlies creativity to appreciate why he'd put it just that way.

[Mr. Cohen]

One thing I'll say about Phil is that he was in a really bad car accident in the mid-70s and almost died. It's possible that he suffered some form of brain damage from that, which can lead to drastic alterations in a someone's personality.  Sure, he was a crazy control freak before the accident, but after it, you get the Ramones recording sessions and stuff like that...

[Curtis Leon]

...Part of the blame is Phil's inability to adapt to the times - kinda reminds me of Roy Orbison in a way...

Hey, I agree with your assessment of Spector, but what's with the Orbison remark? Ol' Roy had a fantastic two or three years at the end. Had he lived, I think he would have continued having hits. As it is, his widow has managed his catalog very well over the past twenty years.

I'm not saying he was bad, I'm saying that he couldn't adapt to the times. In fact, I love Roy Orbison, love his voice, love his songwriting. Unfortunately, he couldn't manage to integrate with the Summer of Love, the psychedelic age, and etc, etc. His soul just wasn't with it. He did have a great comeback, though

[monkeytree5]

...Part of the blame is Phil's inability to adapt to the times - kinda reminds me of Roy Orbison in a way...

Hey, I agree with your assessment of Spector, but what's with the Orbison remark? Ol' Roy had a fantastic two or three years at the end. Had he lived, I think he would have continued having hits. As it is, his widow has managed his catalog very well over the past twenty years.

[Roger Ryan]

...Part of the blame is Phil's inability to adapt to the times - kinda reminds me of Roy Orbison in a way...

Hey, I agree with your assessment of Spector, but what's with the Orbison remark? Ol' Roy had a fantastic two or three years at the end. Had he lived, I think he would have continued having hits. As it is, his widow has managed his catalog very well over the past twenty years.

I'm not saying he was bad, I'm saying that he couldn't adapt to the times. In fact, I love Roy Orbison, love his voice, love his songwriting. Unfortunately, he couldn't manage to integrate with the Summer of Love, the psychedelic age, and etc, etc. His soul just wasn't with it. He did have a great comeback, though

Fair enough...and, oh yeah, LAMINAR FLOW...hmmm...of course there were a lot of years where Orbison could not adapt (wasn't this mostly true for the majority of rock artists who started in the 50s?), but his comeback, and subsequent profile, was/is way beyond what Spector has been able to achieve.

[Mike's Beard]

...Part of the blame is Phil's inability to adapt to the times - kinda reminds me of Roy Orbison in a way...

Hey, I agree with your assessment of Spector, but what's with the Orbison remark? Ol' Roy had a fantastic two or three years at the end. Had he lived, I think he would have continued having hits. As it is, his widow has managed his catalog very well over the past twenty years.

This and the cover for "Looking Back With Love" are neck and neck in the race for most hideous record sleeve of all time.

[Myk Luhv]

That is actually a really unfortunate cover. I don't know how anyone could be okay with that actually being mass produced...

[jimmyboy]

But Spector DID diversify his sound - the Beatles and solo albums, the Dion album, Ramones, quite different from the wall of sound he pioneered. And he did cut a few great albums, too, it wasn't all about singles, try "Love is all we have to Give", by Sonny Charles & the Checkmates from '69, an overlooked masterpiece.

I don't believe Spector was in the studio during the recording of "Let It Be" but was handed the unmixed tapes the band gave him.

[Dunderhead]

or for that matter about Brian visiting him in the mansion as part of any Landy therapy.

No, this part is true. There is even an interview on Youtube with Brian and the rest of the BBs on a TV show from the 80s where Brian talks about having met Spector recently. It's really awkward how it comes up. The interviewer asks the BBs about groupies, and Mike says, "I'll toss this hand grenade to Brian."

"Well, groupies are a lot like listening to a Phil Spector record... I met Phil a couple of days ago and we talked about some things..."

And he goes on from there. It's not an exact quote, but that's basically what he said. I wish I knew how to find it again on Youtube.

I love how he just has phil spector on the mind 24/7.

[hypehat]

But Spector DID diversify his sound - the Beatles and solo albums, the Dion album, Ramones, quite different from the wall of sound he pioneered. And he did cut a few great albums, too, it wasn't all about singles, try "Love is all we have to Give", by Sonny Charles & the Checkmates from '69, an overlooked masterpiece.

I don't believe Spector was in the studio during the recording of "Let It Be" but was handed the unmixed tapes the band gave him.

Yerp. And that Checkmates record is bloody class