Transition between Smile and Smiley Smile.

[Dunderhead]

I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the character of the late smile sessions.

Brian worked on Vega-Tables (I've heard the major bouts of sessions for the first part of April before sessions stop for a month only to pick up with I Love to Say Da-Da. The final session is canceled on May 19. On June 3rd Vegetables sessions begin and from June 11th to July 14th Smiley Smile is cut in Brian's home studio.

Some questions:

-What were those I Love To Say Da-Da sessions like? Were they a "I took a month to catch my breath but I have some new ideas to try out" or were they "damn I need to finish this thing, I better finish up what needs to be recorded".
-Did Brian realize that Smile and Smiley Smile were different? Did he have a whole new attitude during the vegetable sessions and home studio sessions than he did during the Da-Da sessions that were only a few days earlier? That is, did Brian realize Smile was done for during those final Da-Da sessions?
-There's a story that Brian took Heroes to a radio station based on the advice of his astrologer. Does anyone know when this was exactly? During the Smiley Smile sessions? Brian seemed deeply oncerned about the success of the lead single, and the initial reaction of the radio dj was supposed to have been very difficult to Brian to swallow.
-What are the opinions on the other songs written in 1967? Time To Get Alone was recorded only a month after Smiley Smile was released. Gettin' Hungry is credited solely to Brian, was it something written on the spur of the moment to fill out Smiley Smile? Or was it, like seemingly all the other tracks on the album, a Smile holdover? What about songs like Good Time Mama and Good News? I've even heard Let the Wind Blow was supposed to have come out of the Elements. There's only a half a year between the last Smile session and the release of Wild Honey, so I'm interested to hear how people think these slightly later songs connect to Smile, both musically and conceptually.

Obviously there's no way a lot of this can be answered, but I'm sure there are plenty ideas to go around and I'd love to hear them all.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Gettin' Hungry was credited to Wilson/Love. Even the single says 'Brian Wilson and Mike Love' on it.

[willy]

I've even heard Let the Wind Blow was supposed to have come out of the Elements.

I have often thought about that. Most might disagree but I can here a similarity, maybe chords, feel, whatever, between 'I Love to Say Da Da'' and 'Let the Wind Blow'.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I've also heard a theory that 'Country Air' was the Air element reworked, although I believe the evidence of this is next to none.

[Paulos]

Sometimes I feel that Smiley Smile is like a rough demo version of SMiLE. Virtually every song on Smiley was supposed to be on SMiLE or is a rework of ideas from SMiLE sessions.

Heroes & Villians, Vegatables, Good Vibrations, Wind Chimes and Wonderful were all meant for SMiLE with the latter two obviously being rewored for Smiley.

Fall Breaks & Back To Winter is very similar to Mrs O'Leary's Cow
She's Goin' Bald is a renamed and reworked version of He Gives Speeches
With Me Tonight was worked on during SMiLE sessions as the snippet on Hawthorne CA shows

As far as I'm aware, Little Pad, Gettin' Hungry and Whistle In are the only songs specifically written for Smiley. Which makes me all the more confused as to why they didnt release SMiLE, most of Smiley is SMiLE in some form or another. Couple that with Mama Says, the Child Is The Father Of The Man part of Little Bird, the workshop coda to Do It Again, Our Prayer, Cabinessence, Cool Cool Water (I Love To Say Dada and Water Chant) and Surf's Up being put on subsequent releases and it becomes even more confusing, by 1972 most of SMiLE had been released!

[rogerlancelot]

Sometimes I feel that Smiley Smile is like a rough demo version of SMiLE. Virtually every song on Smiley was supposed to be on SMiLE or is a rework of ideas from SMiLE sessions.

Heroes & Villians, Vegatables, Good Vibrations, Wind Chimes and Wonderful were all meant for SMiLE with the latter two obviously being rewored for Smiley.

Fall Breaks & Back To Winter is very similar to Mrs O'Leary's Cow
She's Goin' Bald is a renamed and reworked version of He Gives Speeches
With Me Tonight was worked on during SMiLE sessions as the snippet on Hawthorne CA shows

As far as I'm aware, Little Pad, Gettin' Hungry and Whistle In are the only songs specifically written for Smiley. Which makes me all the more confused as to why they didnt release SMiLE, most of Smiley is SMiLE in some form or another. Couple that with Mama Says, the Child Is The Father Of The Man part of Little Bird, the workshop coda to Do It Again, Our Prayer and Cabinessence and Surf's Up being put on subsequent releases and it becomes even more confusing, by 1972 most of SMiLE had been released!

"Whistle In" was first recorded on January 27th, 1967 as a section for "Heroes And Villains".

[buddhahat]

Sometimes I feel that Smiley Smile is like a rough demo version of SMiLE. Virtually every song on Smiley was supposed to be on SMiLE or is a rework of ideas from SMiLE sessions.

Heroes & Villians, Vegatables, Good Vibrations, Wind Chimes and Wonderful were all meant for SMiLE with the latter two obviously being rewored for Smiley.

Fall Breaks & Back To Winter is very similar to Mrs O'Leary's Cow
She's Goin' Bald is a renamed and reworked version of He Gives Speeches
With Me Tonight was worked on during SMiLE sessions as the snippet on Hawthorne CA shows

As far as I'm aware, Little Pad, Gettin' Hungry and Whistle In are the only songs specifically written for Smiley. Which makes me all the more confused as to why they didnt release SMiLE, most of Smiley is SMiLE in some form or another. Couple that with Mama Says, the Child Is The Father Of The Man part of Little Bird, the workshop coda to Do It Again, Our Prayer and Cabinessence and Surf's Up being put on subsequent releases and it becomes even more confusing, by 1972 most of SMiLE had been released!

"Whistle In" was first recorded on January 27th, 1967 as a section for "Heroes And Villains".

And I would argue that whistle in is related to the wahalalulay part of worms, and the intro to dada - it's definitely a Smile offshoot one way or another.

The one that fascinates me is Lil Pad. It seems so beautiful that you'd think it must have been born during the smile sessions, but it seemingly doesn't relate to any smile songs, although somebody apparently covered Tones and sang the Lil Pad lyrics over the top and it fit surprisingly well (apparently - never heard myself).

[willy]

The one that fascinates me is Lil Pad. It seems so beautiful that you'd think it must have been born during the smile sessions, but it seemingly doesn't relate to any smile songs, although somebody apparently covered Tones and sang the Lil Pad lyrics over the top and it fit surprisingly well (apparently - never heard myself).

'Tones' does also have some 'Hawaiian' guitar and could've been a precursor to 'Little Pad' in many respects. (I love that sort of 'stereo' mix of 'Little Pad' that I once heard may be out there somewhere.)

[Paulos]

Sometimes I feel that Smiley Smile is like a rough demo version of SMiLE. Virtually every song on Smiley was supposed to be on SMiLE or is a rework of ideas from SMiLE sessions.

Heroes & Villians, Vegatables, Good Vibrations, Wind Chimes and Wonderful were all meant for SMiLE with the latter two obviously being rewored for Smiley.

Fall Breaks & Back To Winter is very similar to Mrs O'Leary's Cow
She's Goin' Bald is a renamed and reworked version of He Gives Speeches
With Me Tonight was worked on during SMiLE sessions as the snippet on Hawthorne CA shows

As far as I'm aware, Little Pad, Gettin' Hungry and Whistle In are the only songs specifically written for Smiley. Which makes me all the more confused as to why they didnt release SMiLE, most of Smiley is SMiLE in some form or another. Couple that with Mama Says, the Child Is The Father Of The Man part of Little Bird, the workshop coda to Do It Again, Our Prayer and Cabinessence and Surf's Up being put on subsequent releases and it becomes even more confusing, by 1972 most of SMiLE had been released!

"Whistle In" was first recorded on January 27th, 1967 as a section for "Heroes And Villains".

Thanks for the info I didn't know that nor the Tones/Little Pad connection, so we are basically down to Gettin' Hungry as the only true Smiley original?

[willy]

Thanks for the info I didn't know that nor the Tones/Little Pad connection, so we are basically down to Gettin' Hungry as the only true Smiley original?

Having said that you could sing (in a different key) "Got to keep those lovin' good vibrations a-happenin' with her..." over the organ riff!!! So get those personal SMiLE compilations rejigged folks!

There is also a 'Wonderful' vocal "Tag" section ("Ma-ma ma-ma ma-ma ma-ma ma-ma...") which slightly resembles same. It probably doesn't really. I'm starting to get cabin fever here all by myself so I'll stop there...

[A Million Units In Jan!]

"Whistle In" was first recorded on January 27th, 1967 as a section for "Heroes And Villains".

Is that a sure thing? I thought that it was possibly done that day, no hard evidence of it, though. I think David Leaf started that with his liner notes in the Smiley 2-fer.

[Dunderhead]

Well why did he record new songs for Smiley Smile? The album has a really weird assortment of tracks. He reworked versions of so many other Smile songs, why did he pick those songs. Like why not Cabinessence or Surf's Up, those songs were already composed.

At this point had Brian decided Smiley Smile was something different from Smile? Did a mood just strike him to record Gettin' Hungry? Was the tracklist just selected at random? Did the rest of the band decide what could be used? Was Brian just not happy enough with some of the tracks to record them? Or was the unused material so emotionally charged that he couldn't go near it?

I guess it's just so weird, where did Little Pad come from? And why did Brian pick tracks like Whistle In of With Me Tonight? Any theories?

[willy]

Dunno but there seemed to be an attempt to leave the grandiose SMiLE behind and do something quick and simple away from the demon studios. So, exactly, why not just use what was in the can, woulda been quicker still. With hindsight I am pleased to have SMiLE and SS versions of all, but will always be grateful if mainly for the SS 'Wind Chimes'.

[Ron]

I heard a theory once that the reason Brian didn't use what was in the can was because he wasn't happy with them as they were, so as such re-recorded personally sabotaged versions and put them out, to satisfy his ego or whatever that any criticism the songs got he could tell himself he did that on purpose.

So the theory would say that the Boys wanted to put in particular, Wonderful, and Wind Chimes on the album, and Brian had them rerecorded as creepy and strange versions to change the songs enough in his own mind that he wouldn't feel bad about them never being realized the way he wanted them to be (as part of this huge master production that would have been SMiLE).

Kind of backwards of how legend says he finished "Surf's Up" by helping record the amazing vocal tag on the end of the "Surf's Up" album version.  He didn't want Carl to put it out, but since he was going to anyways he did what little he could to finish it that day or whatever.

All of this discussion is really hard to be concrete about, we're really just talking about the legend here.  You can kind of make up your own mind of what happened in Brian's!

[The Heartical Don]

I heard a theory once that the reason Brian didn't use what was in the can was because he wasn't happy with them as they were, so as such re-recorded personally sabotaged versions and put them out, to satisfy his ego or whatever that any criticism the songs got he could tell himself he did that on purpose.

So the theory would say that the Boys wanted to put in particular, Wonderful, and Wind Chimes on the album, and Brian had them rerecorded as creepy and strange versions to change the songs enough in his own mind that he wouldn't feel bad about them never being realized the way he wanted them to be (as part of this huge master production that would have been SMiLE).

Kind of backwards of how legend says he finished "Surf's Up" by helping record the amazing vocal tag on the end of the "Surf's Up" album version.  He didn't want Carl to put it out, but since he was going to anyways he did what little he could to finish it that day or whatever.

All of this discussion is really hard to be concrete about, we're really just talking about the legend here.  You can kind of make up your own mind of what happened in Brian's!

Fascinating. Oftentimes I thought that the 'sabotaging' of the SMiLE material was protection. Perhaps Brian's state of mind was getting more fragile by the day way back then. Expectations were criminally high. There was that odd competition with the Beatles. Leonard Bernstein praised Surf's Up.

He may well have been terribly afraid of rejection. If SMiLE were to be 85% of the 100% triumph everyone wanted, then unfair and too heavy criticism could have been levelled at him. A bad situation.

Whether the act of 'sabotaging' was intentional or not, it happened. It may have provided Brian with a sense of immunity for some time. Because Smiley Smile, of course, did get criticized. But its creator then could always say to himself: yeah, but it isn't really tops, is it? I can do better. When I want to.

This way, Smiley Smile somehow functioned in a way that irony also does. Speaking of yourself in a belittling, deprecating way can be a technique to avoid pain and fear.

[Cam Mott]

I think the problem with most theories is they presume that Brian was prevented from something by someone/thing. Someone/thing was trying very hard to make what Brian wanted happen and it did.

[The Heartical Don]

I think the problem with most theories is they presume that Brian was prevented from something by someone/thing. Someone/thing was trying very hard to make what Brian wanted happen and it did.

Sorry, Cam, might there be a negation lacking in the second sentence? I don't really get it this way...

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I think the problem with most theories is they presume that Brian was prevented from something by someone/thing. Someone/thing was trying very hard to make what Brian wanted happen and it did.

I agree with what your saying, which is basically that the long held theory is Brian wanted SMiLE to come out and the other guys didn't, so they forced him to junk it.  That's the way I used to feel, but anymore I think it was more on Brian than anyone else that he junked it-for a number of reasons, not just the other guys hated it or whatever.

[Ron]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply above that the boys kept Brian from finishing SMiLE, just that it ended up that Brian didn't finish SMiLE... so knowing the album was scrapped, he purposefully recorded what he thought were half-assed versions of two of the most beautiful songs, so when the criticism came in it wouldn't be of his little babies, just their strange, weird-ass little cousins. 

[Cam Mott]

I think the problem with most theories is they presume that Brian was prevented from something by someone/thing. Someone/thing was trying very hard to make what Brian wanted happen and it did.

Sorry, Cam, might there be a negation lacking in the second sentence? I don't really get it this way...

[giggle]

But, in case you aren't joshing me....[suspicious squint]....what I mean is everyone was working very hard to do what Brian wanted to get done, even when they didn't understand it, or it humiliated them, or inconvenienced them, lost them money, credibility, whatever. I don't mean that Brian was doing anything in a malicious or passive agressive way, far from it, it was his charisma that made everyone want to do his bidding, put themselves out, make whatever he wanted to happen to happen. They made their feelings known but if Brian's Muse didn't agree, he did what he wanted and everyone went along. SMiLE's only real resistance came from Brian. He wanted to scrap it, the Boys didn't want him to, Brian plowed on anyway and the Boys marched right into the home studio and did their best for Brian on Smiley while Capitol sat on their hands again waiting for whatever Brian handed them whenever he got around to it, etc., etc..

[Ron]

I didn't realize the Boys didn't want SMiLE scrapped.  That's interesting.

I've always found it beautiful that they would work for Brian, even though the songs sometimes were pretty crappy.  For instance, "I just Got My Pay" was recorded close to the time that "This Whole World" was, wasn't it?  I of course love both, but "I Just Got My Pay" is horrible and "This Whole World" is amazingly wonderful. 

[Dunderhead]

I think the problem with most theories is they presume that Brian was prevented from something by someone/thing. Someone/thing was trying very hard to make what Brian wanted happen and it did.

Sorry, Cam, might there be a negation lacking in the second sentence? I don't really get it this way...

[giggle]

But, in case you aren't joshing me....[suspicious squint]....what I mean is everyone was working very hard to do what Brian wanted to get done, even when they didn't understand it, or it humiliated them, or inconvenienced them, lost them money, credibility, whatever. I don't mean that Brian was doing anything in a malicious or passive agressive way, far from it, it was his charisma that made everyone want to do his bidding, put themselves out, make whatever he wanted to happen to happen. They made their feelings known but if Brian's Muse didn't agree, he did what he wanted and everyone went along. SMiLE's only real resistance came from Brian. He wanted to scrap it, the Boys didn't want him to, Brian plowed on anyway and the Boys marched right into the home studio and did their best for Brian on Smiley while Capitol sat on their hands again waiting for whatever Brian handed them whenever he got around to it, etc., etc..

This is basically what I was thinking. Brian was still in charge of the group for Smiley Smile right?
The basic version of the story, that Mike Love forced Brian to give up Smile just never made sense. If the rest of the band wanted a more commercial album, why did they record Smiley Smile!? I was also always under the impression that the Carl loved Smile and that Dennis was mostly ambivalent but respectful of it. I really do think it was in part self sabotage.
Smile is like some insidious piece of artistic commentary. We as bootleggers and remixers are forced to constantly try and create a definite 'Smile', but we can never quite get there. It's really the same dilemma that Brian faced, the endless possibilities of the project just defeated him. I imagine his psychedelic experiences also didn't help much, and only increased the sense of artistic nihilism that Brian probably felt.
This is why I'm interested in the last sessions. Of all the songs Brian could have put on Smiley Smile why did he pick those songs? I refuse to believe that it was all just random. Why did they write new lyrics for He Gives Speeches? Why did Brian record two new, seemingly Smile unrelated songs? Why did he pick Whistle In and With Me Tonight?

[Cam Mott]

I don't mean to be disagreeable...but I guess I am. I don't buy that Brian had some sort of grudge, conscious or unconscious. While I'm at it, I don't buy that Brian was not able to finish or stopped because it would take too long to figure out. Every, or nearly, every scrap of recording was identified at the time of recording and sometimes during recording as to what it was for. None of the revered excuses for Brian work, imo. There is no need for excuses for Brian because there is nothing to excuse. He didn't dig it, he did dig something else, he did what he wanted [something else] but not as some double-cross, ulterior-motive, got-ya for himself or somebody else but because that is what he musically wanted to do. He was over it but it is hard for us, and the group, to get over him being over it.

Re. the group not wanting SMiLE scrapped: Brian said it in 1967/68. The quote is in LLVS but it has been edited to make it seem that group wanted SMiLE scrapped.

[Dunderhead]

I don't mean to be disagreeable...but I guess I am. I don't buy that Brian had some sort of grudge, conscious or unconscious. While I'm at it, I don't buy that Brian was not able to finish or stopped because it would take too long to figure out. Every, or nearly, every scrap of recording was identified at the time of recording and sometimes during recording as to what it was for. None of the revered excuses for Brian work, imo. There is no need for excuses for Brian because there is nothing to excuse. He didn't dig it, he did dig something else, he did what he wanted [something else] but not as some double-cross, ulterior-motive, got-ya for himself or somebody else but because that is what he musically wanted to do. He was over it but it is hard for us, and the group, to get over him being over it.

Re. the group not wanting SMiLE scrapped: Brian said it in 1967/68. The quote is in LLVS but it has been edited to make it seem that group wanted SMiLE scrapped.

I'm not saying that group pressures didn't influence Brian, certainly Mike's low approval hurt Brian's self esteem.
I wouldn't say Brian is a confident man, would you? "Grudge" is the wrong word, maybe "uncertainty" is better. He was just a young kid, thrust onto the world stage. If he had a plan, if he was confident about the project to begin with, why was it so hard for him to put the album together? Brian's conception of the project changed considerably as it went on, the songs were always changing. I'm not saying he didn't have certain artistic preconceptions, certain themes that really stuck in his mind. All I'm saying is that his idea of the final totality was constantly evolving.
If the Beach Boys absolutely didn't want the material to come out, then they shouldn't have allowed Smiley Smile either.
I believe to some extent Brian just thought that a more low-key production was needed, but to scrap a year's worth of work? I really doubt Brian just sat down one day and said "alright enough of that big studio stuff, the new ultra-hip thing is really shoddily produced nightmare-psychedelia". I mean, it's not just low key, it's just poorly produced at times, sure that's part of the charm, but it only gained that charm after years of critical reevaluations. The album is full of bad editing and bad mastering. His opinions of Smiley Smile were obviously much less enthusiastic than ones he had during the Smile sessions.
Just listen to something like "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", that's how Brian felt, Brian didn't think anyone could really understand what he was doing.

[rogerlancelot]

Ass Pudding.

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