TLOS Sound Quality

[cutterschoice]

If vinyl could support this kind of compression/maximisation the bastards would do the same to it.

There's an unfortunate volume standard set with CDs to compete. But even so, this CD version isn't maximised as bad as a lot of other CDs out there. It's unfortunate that the whole thing is EQ'ed the way it is. There's so much going on in the high frequencies which is mainly what makes it uncomfortable to listen to.

Vinyl's support bass so much better than CDs ever can, producing that lovely warm quality.

I hope this current CD mastering fad of over-compression and high-end brittle-ness (high-end adding to the illusion of volume) ends soon. It's a terrible thing.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If vinyl could support this kind of compression/maximisation the bastards would do the same to it.

There's an unfortunate volume standard set with CDs to compete. But even so, this CD version isn't maximised as bad as a lot of other CDs out there. It's unfortunate that the whole thing is EQ'ed the way it is. There's so much going on in the high frequencies which is mainly what makes it uncomfortable to listen to.

Vinyl's support bass so much better than CDs ever can, producing that lovely warm quality.

I hope this current CD mastering fad of over-compression and high-end brittle-ness (high-end adding to the illusion of volume) ends soon. It's a terrible thing.

I think it's instructive to recall that when it was announced that Bob Ludwig mastered TLOS, you could hear the groans rippling through the BW fan community.

[absinthe_boy]

How does the CD and vinyl compare here?

Night and day.  I think the BWPS cd sounds much better than TLOS, but the vinyl is just incredible.  It's that good.

The US pressing of the vinyl is amongst the finest LPs I own....OK so I don't have thousands but lets say something like 600 LPs from the late 50's to the present day. SMiLE is perhaps in the top 10 for fidelity.

It really is that good.

TLOS on vinyl is far better than the CD but would be in my bottom 200 somewhere.

[Sam_BFC]

I'd love to hear vinyl versions some time

[absinthe_boy]

As an aside, the European pressing of SMiLE is not nearly as good. It comes from the same master but the whole product is inferior to the American one....from the less thick card used to make the gatefold sleeve to the smaller relief of the emobssing on said sleeve to the quality of the vinyl....but its still better than the CD.

I have to say that despite being an early digital recording using the Soundstream syste, Fleetwood Mac's "Tusk" on vinyl is *to die for*...it is a sonic marvel....as is Pink Floyd's "The Wall". Anything by Deutcshe Grammophon is good, if you enjoy classical/orchestral music. Phillips put out some fantastic vinyl before they attempted to destroy the market with the CD...for example Duke Ellington's Nutcracker Suite from 1960.

In the 80's there were a fair number of 'important' albums put out as special audiophile editions mastered at half speed...and yes...you can tell the difference. For example Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells...on the half speed master you can hear subtlties that you simply can't hear on the regular LP...or on the CD.

I didn't break the bank with my turntable either. Back in 1991 I spent approximately 400 quid on a Systemdek IIx900 and it still serves me well. Similar is available today from Audionote though I think at 3x the price.

[Runaways]

hmm.  i kinda wanna get smile on vinyl now. 

[Alex]

Gotta love the loudness wars. With they way everything is compressed these days, I don't see why artists and producers aren't just peaking into the red during recording...wouldn't sound that much different.

[absinthe_boy]

Gotta love the loudness wars. With they way everything is compressed these days, I don't see why artists and producers aren't just peaking into the red during recording...wouldn't sound that much different.

With digital recording, peaking in the read just sounds horrid. I first encountered this circa 1990 when a friend acquired a DAT recorder and we did some experimenting. I was familiar with pushing into the red with analogue tape but with digital you just don't do it....sounds horrible. The same is true with today's hard disc or flash memory digital recorders.

I'm no recording engineer by the way, just an enthusiast. I did mess with 4-track recording during my childhood and even thought I'd invented 'ping ponging' from 3 tracks to one In order to open up 3 more tracks when the 4 were full...little did I know!

[the captain]

Agreed: as opposed to a sometimes cool kind of distortion of tape, I've found you just get a pop-click kind of sound.

[onatrain]

 

I think it's instructive to recall that when it was announced that Bob Ludwig mastered TLOS, you could hear the groans rippling through the BW fan community.

Newbie question:  Who decides the mastering engineer for each album?  Checked the BW solo CDs and Bob Ludwig is the one doing the mastering, more often than not.  Since Smile sounds great (unless I am mistaken), why the groans for this involvement with TLOS (and BWRG?)?  Just asking as I have many of the BW vinyls, just no turntable.  One of these days I hear how they sound.  Just wall decorations for now. 

PS How does the GIOMH coloured vinyl sound compared to the CD??  Anybody care?  Thanks.

[absinthe_boy]

I think it's instructive to recall that when it was announced that Bob Ludwig mastered TLOS, you could hear the groans rippling through the BW fan community.

Newbie question:  Who decides the mastering engineer for each album?  Checked the BW solo CDs and Bob Ludwig is the one doing the mastering, more often than not.  Since Smile sounds great (unless I am mistaken), why the groans for this involvement with TLOS (and BWRG?)?  Just asking as I have many of the BW vinyls, just no turntable.  One of these days I hear how they sound.  Just wall decorations for now. 

PS How does the GIOMH coloured vinyl sound compared to the CD??  Anybody care?  Thanks.

Not sure why the groans, as Ludwig seems to be one of the few people *against* the loudness war these days.

GIOMH coloured vinyl, like most coloured vinyl, doesn't sound as good as the black wax....but it's still a very nice pressing....better than the CD but with a hint of surface noise from the vinyl.

[Myk Luhv]

Coloured vinyl does not change the sound quality, why would it? It's ostensibly simply a matter of adding dyes to the wax when it's pressed, and that wouldn't do anything positive or negative to a pressing. Picture discs are the ones to worry about, however.

[absinthe_boy]

Vinyl comes naturally clear (by which I mean colourless). It is coloured black to aid its properties in terms of reducing unwanted noise. Coloured discs are somewhat less optimal - though that does depend on the colouring agent used.

[lupinofan]

I don't own the recording in any format, but absinthe boy's screenshots lead me to wonder whether the European CD is HDCD encoded? HDCD, among one or two other tricks, boosts the output of the disc by 6dB (ie to twice the subjective volume.) When a HDCD disc is played back on a non-HDCD compatible CD player, the volume boost still happens but with crushed peaks (ie with an added layer of brickwall limiting.) iTunes, on the other hand, can accurately rip and decode HDCD, thus making Andrew's ripped copy sound better from his iPod than the original.

Of course, if Andrew has an HDCD player, all bets are off.

Also, it seems to be largely overlooked that one can hear some semblance of stereo with only one ear. Each ear is capable of decoding directional information on its own to some extent - this is the basis of Quad and other surround systems. I only found this out for myself when I suffered an inner ear infection which took much of my hearing in my left ear as a teenager. Thankfully, I got my full hearing back following an operation, but during my "deaf year" I could still easily detect from which speaker certain sounds came from, especially with wide, three-track style "trick" stereo recordings made in the 1960s.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I don't own the recording in any format, but absinthe boy's screenshots lead me to wonder whether the European CD is HDCD encoded? HDCD, among one or two other tricks, boosts the output of the disc by 6dB (ie to twice the subjective volume.) When a HDCD disc is played back on a non-HDCD compatible CD player, the volume boost still happens but with crushed peaks (ie with an added layer of brickwall limiting.) iTunes, on the other hand, can accurately rip and decode HDCD, thus making Andrew's ripped copy sound better from his iPod than the original.

Of course, if Andrew has an HDCD player, all bets are off.

Didn't make any difference what I played it on, it still sounded awful... and I don't recall seeing the HDCD icon on the readout. That would explain why my iPod rip sounds way better.

[absinthe_boy]

I've got a player that will play anything I care to throw at it from DVD-Audio (full resolution) down to regular CDs.

TLOS is *UNLISTENABLE* on CD...at least to my sensitive and somewhat trained ears.

[drbeachboy]

I feel sorry for you that you have such sensitive ears. It must be a real burden to carry around in this day and age? Almost everything released today is loud and brickwalled. I hear on another forum that even our Beach Boys 2-fers are too loud and bright. I am so glad that I do not have Goldilock ears.

[Ron]

That's what I'M trying to say.  Hell TLOS sounds great to me.  I'm glad i'm not cursed like that.  I can tell when sh*t is in tune or not, and I can tell when things aren't clear, but TLOS sounds great, when I first got it I thought it was such a clean sounding, beautifully recorded cd. 

That would suck to not be able to stand any amount of compression on an album without hearing it, and making it 'unlistenable' as several people have called it on here. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I have average ears (although as I prefer CD to vinyl, some would argue against that) but the European version of TLOS was the first truly unlistenable CD I've ever heard since I started buying them in 1985. The US pressing is fine, as is my iPod rip from the European disc.

[The Heartical Don]

I have average ears (although as I prefer CD to vinyl, some would argue against that) but the European version of TLOS was the first truly unlistenable CD I've ever heard since I started buying them in 1985. The US pressing is fine, as is my iPod rip from the European disc.

Same here. I'm already looking for a different pressing of TLOS, or the LP thereof. The Euro CD is sheer torture, even at very low levels.

[Jay]

TLOS is one of the worst mastered, engineered, and mixed albums I have ever heard in my life. This, coming from a 25 year old with a fair bit of Tinnitus.

I have a slightly off topic question. Let's say you burn a cd-r of a vinyl album. During the process from vinyl to cd-r, is there any change in the sound quality? Is anything "digitized" along the way? As you can probably tell, I'm not an audiophile in the least.

[?]

TLOS is one of the worst mastered, engineered, and mixed albums I have ever heard in my life. This, coming from a 25 year old with a fair bit of Tinnitus.

I have a slightly off topic question. Let's say you burn a cd-r of a vinyl album. During the process from vinyl to cd-r, is there any change in the sound quality? Is anything "digitized" along the way? As you can probably tell, I'm not an audiophile in the least.

It depends on the equipment used Jay.  I have a nice turntable, preamp, etc. but just a cheap 16 bit sound card.  I've experimented with making 'needledrops' of a few records and they came out sounding harsh and grainy, for lack of a better description.  But I've heard some terrific vinyl rips online from people with much better computer hardware than I have, including rips of the exact same pressing of a given record that I own, and I couldn't tell a difference between their copy and the actual record being played back on my table.  If you record with a nice 24/96 capable sound card and then dither it down to 16 bit to burn a cd-r then it can sound amazing.  Even better, my friend with a Squeezbox tells me 24 bit files sound incredible so I can imagine if you had a 24 bit rip of a nice record you'd really be in business.  Is there any change in sound quality along the way?  Technically, there probably is.  Is that difference going to be perceptible to the human ear?  I doubt it.  I'm very pro-vinyl but there is absolutely nothing wrong with digital audio.  It's great technology.  It just depends on how it's used and that's where the problem with most modern cds is.

[LostArt]

I have average ears (although as I prefer CD to vinyl, some would argue against that) but the European version of TLOS was the first truly unlistenable CD I've ever heard since I started buying them in 1985. The US pressing is fine, as is my iPod rip from the European disc.

I'm convinced that Andrew is correct.  I bought my copy of TLOS at a Best Buy in Wisconsin, and it sounds fine.  My ears are 54 years old, but I know a crappy sounding, unlistenable CD when I hear it (Bruce Springsteen's "Magic" for one).  Had to be a different mastering job on some of the TLOS CDs, and it sounds like Andrew has both versions.

[The Heartical Don]

I have average ears (although as I prefer CD to vinyl, some would argue against that) but the European version of TLOS was the first truly unlistenable CD I've ever heard since I started buying them in 1985. The US pressing is fine, as is my iPod rip from the European disc.

I'm convinced that Andrew is correct.  I bought my copy of TLOS at a Best Buy in Wisconsin, and it sounds fine.  My ears are 54 years old, but I know a crappy sounding, unlistenable CD when I hear it (Bruce Springsteen's "Magic" for one).  Had to be a different mastering job on some of the TLOS CDs, and it sounds like Andrew has both versions.

Ha! Had exactly the same with 'Magic'. A distorted, and very flat soundscape. I compared it to 'The Rising', and that is much, much better. One gets pretty desperate about such things... with all that technology at our hands, all the formats available, and with all the fine budget hifi devices on the market (way better than 30 years ago)... with all of that, we get crappier sound than that of a very average pressing of a Motown 45 in 1964.

It stinks.

[hypehat]

If you'd ever listened to Memory Almost Full by Macca, i find that much worse. That's the most horribly compressed CD i can think of.
 I haven't listened to TLOS on CD since i bought it, though -always been on the ipod, which sounds fine if perhaps a little over-cooked.... i have no idea how ripping it would somehow undistort the music!