What was to be the lead track on Smile?

[buddhahat]

There are a few smile threads going so I thought why not start another ...

Where does the idea that H&V was to follow Our Prayer as the start to Smile, originate from? Is it generally accepted that H&V was the lead track, purely because this is what happened on Smiley?

To my ears, H&V after Our Prayer just does not work. I'm not a musicologist, but the keys sound all wrong to me. The jump from the last mmm to "I've Been In this town" sounds distinctly unmusical and not the sort of thing Brian would've done. Unless he planned some sort of bridge between the two such as Gee, but I don't think there's any evidence that Gee was planned as an intro to Heroes or anything else for that matter, bar Heroes intro but I'm pretty sure that was an intro to H&V single side b.

Compare to the transition between Prayer and Good Vibrations - whatever key GV starts in, it sounds like a natural progression from the last chord of Our Prayer. It actually sounds good. Plus the hushed vocals of Carl have a much more choral quality that matches the mood of Prayer.

Personally I'm sure GV was to be the lead track on Smile - the cover even has GV emblazoned across the top. H&V would've kicked off side 2 imo.

Any thoughts?

[BillA]

I would imagine that the idea came from Brian.

[grillo]

Perhaps, if SMiLe really was just a collection of songs and not a song cycle/teenage-symphony-to-god type of thing, it's possible GV would have been the lead off track, but somehow that doesn't seem right to me. It could be just twenty some years of assuming H&V would start it that gives me that unsettled impression, but GV never really struck me as a particularly good example of SMiLe music, thus it would be a weird start to the record.
Another related question is, except for the studio talk, what makes you think Prayer would have been the lead track? Perhaps Prayer would have been an intro to the album in the same way H&V pt2 would have been a sampler, used on a single and not intended as a SMiLe track (is it on the handwritten list, can't remember?)
Anyway, I feel like GV is a good start to side two of the 12 song SMiLe, but I'm interested in folks with more insight than I to sway my establishment mind.

[The Shift]

There are a few smile threads going so I thought why not start another ...

Where does the idea that H&V was to follow Our Prayer as the start to Smile, originate from? Is it generally accepted that H&V was the lead track, purely because this is what happened on Smiley?

To my ears, H&V after Our Prayer just does not work. I'm not a musicologist, but the keys sound all wrong to me. The jump from the last mmm to "I've Been In this town" sounds distinctly unmusical and not the sort of thing Brian would've done. Unless he planned some sort of bridge between the two such as Gee, but I don't think there's any evidence that Gee was planned as an intro to Heroes or anything else for that matter, bar Heroes intro but I'm pretty sure that was an intro to H&V single side b.

Compare to the transition between Prayer and Good Vibrations - whatever key GV starts in, it sounds like a natural progression from the last chord of Our Prayer. It actually sounds good. Plus the hushed vocals of Carl have a much more choral quality that matches the mood of Prayer.

Personally I'm sure GV was to be the lead track on Smile - the cover even has GV emblazoned across the top. H&V would've kicked off side 2 imo.

Any thoughts?

Excellent theory, and follows pattern of Pet Sounds having singles lead off each side (even if they were A & B sides of the same single).  It's good marketingn simple as that, and it's sure to help ensure that they sell a million units, in Ja.......

[Bicyclerider]

On the session tape for the SMile Prayer Brian tells Mike the song isn't a "track," just a "little intro to the album." 

So that's where that comes from.

I agree it doesn't flow smoothly into Heroes, and I haven't seen any indication Brian was going to place Heroes as the first track, other than the fact he did so on Smiley.

I always use Do You Like Worms as the opening track - it follows beautifully (and dramatically) from the end of Prayer.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"What was to be the lead track on Smile?"

Here is a 100% guaranteed accurate answer:

No-one knows. Not now, and very probably, not then.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Personally I'm sure GV was to be the lead track on Smile - the cover even has GV emblazoned across the top. H&V would've kicked off side 2 imo.

Any thoughts?

I agree with you. I don't think "Our Prayer" would've been on a 12 song SMiLE.

Although I know it had no chance and probably wasn't even considered for the album, I still think "You're Welcome" is the perfect opener. All three songs - "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", and "Do You Like Worms"  - sound great following it.

[TheLazenby]

Shame if "Gee" wasn't meant as an intro back then, because it works so well.  After "Our Prayer" and "Gee", the album just kind of explodes into gear.  I'd think that the idea at *least* crossed Brian's mind for a moment back then.

[buddhahat]

Personally I'm sure GV was to be the lead track on Smile - the cover even has GV emblazoned across the top. H&V would've kicked off side 2 imo.

Any thoughts?

I agree with you. I don't think "Our Prayer" would've been on a 12 song SMiLE.

Although I know it had no chance and probably wasn't even considered for the album, I still think "You're Welcome" is the perfect opener. All three songs - "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", and "Do You Like Worms"  - sound great following it.

Sheriff  - I actually hadn't thought about whether it would've been on the 12 track Smile. My point was more that when Brian was considering it as the intro to the album, I think it was an intro that would've been followed by Good Vibrations, rather than Heroes. Worms works as a good opener in a narrative sense, but it seems like a fairly left-field , slow no. to kick off the album. I think GV has much more impact as a lead track, and would've been more likely from a commercial point of view.

I guess the handwritten tracklist with the omitted Our Prayer makes you wonder if Brian had dropped it from the line-up by this time. I don't think its absence meant he'd dropped it though - remember, in the sessions he's anxious not to count it as a track, and maybe he didn't feel it necessary to feature it in a proposed tracklist either. Doesn't mean it wasn't still going to be on the album. Who knows though!

[Andrew G. Doe]

I guess the handwritten tracklist with the omitted Our Prayer makes you wonder if Brian had dropped it from the line-up by this time. I don't think its absence meant he'd dropped it though - remember, in the sessions he's anxious not to count it as a track, and maybe he didn't feel it necessary to feature it in a proposed tracklist either. Doesn't mean it wasn't still going to be on the album. Who knows though!

Just a reminder - not only did Brian not write that list, when shown it in the 80s, he claimed he'd never seen it before.

[grillo]

I guess the handwritten tracklist with the omitted Our Prayer makes you wonder if Brian had dropped it from the line-up by this time. I don't think its absence meant he'd dropped it though - remember, in the sessions he's anxious not to count it as a track, and maybe he didn't feel it necessary to feature it in a proposed tracklist either. Doesn't mean it wasn't still going to be on the album. Who knows though!

Just a reminder - not only did Brian not write that list, when shown it in the 80s, he claimed he'd never seen it before.

Didn't he also say he has no idea Dennis recorded an album? I'm mean, this guy's memory is a little peculiar.

[Cam Mott]

That is an interesting theory with GV as the lead track, being the track featured on the cover, it never crossed my mind. At least early on when GV was still burning up the charts and this artwork was presumably being put together I can see how that could easily be the plan. Later, after GV had rounded over in the charts, I wonder if that still would have been the plan?

Don't have a clue about Prayer making it as an "intro" to the album. It is one of the few definite things straight from Brian's mouth at the time and I sort of hate to give it up.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I guess the handwritten tracklist with the omitted Our Prayer makes you wonder if Brian had dropped it from the line-up by this time. I don't think its absence meant he'd dropped it though - remember, in the sessions he's anxious not to count it as a track, and maybe he didn't feel it necessary to feature it in a proposed tracklist either. Doesn't mean it wasn't still going to be on the album. Who knows though!

Just a reminder - not only did Brian not write that list, when shown it in the 80s, he claimed he'd never seen it before.

Didn't he also say he has no idea Dennis recorded an album? I'm mean, this guy's memory is a little peculiar.

Excellent point.

[Boiled Egg]

I guess the handwritten tracklist with the omitted Our Prayer makes you wonder if Brian had dropped it from the line-up by this time. I don't think its absence meant he'd dropped it though - remember, in the sessions he's anxious not to count it as a track, and maybe he didn't feel it necessary to feature it in a proposed tracklist either. Doesn't mean it wasn't still going to be on the album. Who knows though!

Just a reminder - not only did Brian not write that list, when shown it in the 80s, he claimed he'd never seen it before.

this might be a path well trodden - apologies if so - but any idea who did write that list?

(in other news, 'prayer' is, musicologically [dreadful word - sorry] unresolved at the end.  it's in e flat minor [though it was recorded in c sharp minor and varisped up] and ends on its dominant, b flat - meaning it wants to go to an e flat chord next.  SMiLE songs that start with e flat chords: (1) good vibrations; (2) cabinessence. other SMiLE fragments that start with e flat chords: gee and its subsequent variants.)

nerdwatchers, you can relax for another month or so.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Personally I'm sure GV was to be the lead track on Smile - the cover even has GV emblazoned across the top. H&V would've kicked off side 2 imo.

Any thoughts?

I agree with you. I don't think "Our Prayer" would've been on a 12 song SMiLE.

Although I know it had no chance and probably wasn't even considered for the album, I still think "You're Welcome" is the perfect opener. All three songs - "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", and "Do You Like Worms"  - sound great following it.

Sheriff  - I actually hadn't thought about whether it would've been on the 12 track Smile. My point was more that when Brian was considering it as the intro to the album, I think it was an intro that would've been followed by Good Vibrations, rather than Heroes. Worms works as a good opener in a narrative sense, but it seems like a fairly left-field , slow no. to kick off the album. I think GV has much more impact as a lead track, and would've been more likely from a commercial point of view.

I guess the handwritten tracklist with the omitted Our Prayer makes you wonder if Brian had dropped it from the line-up by this time. I don't think its absence meant he'd dropped it though - remember, in the sessions he's anxious not to count it as a track, and maybe he didn't feel it necessary to feature it in a proposed tracklist either. Doesn't mean it wasn't still going to be on the album. Who knows though!

I understood where you were coming from; I brought up the "Our Prayer" issue. And I agree with this post ^ too. I think both "Good Vibrations" or "Do You Like Worms" both sound better after "Our Prayer" than "Heroes And Villains" to kick off the album. IMO, I think Darian had to tweak "Heroes And Villains" just to get it to fit where he....er Brian placed it on BWPS. I also don't have any problem opening an album or a side with "Good Vibrations"; it works for me. "Do You Like Worms" not as much but I can still hear it.

Two SMiLE opinions which don't mean much but that never stopped me before... I was never sold on "Our Prayer" opening SMiLE based on one "sentence" uttered during a single session by a stoned Brian. I also think it's awkward OPENING an album with a song like "Our Prayer"; it just sounds like a "later" song, the way it was used on 20/20 and at the end of BWPS, albeit only a portion.

Also, I've mentioned it a few times, but, to me, "Heroes And Villains" is also a "later" song, not an opening song. Almost all of the verbs are past tense (listen to them!); it just sounds awkward as an opener, when all he is singing about are things that already HAPPENED!  

And, finally, I put a lot of stock in the handwritten note sent to Capitol, whoever actually put the pen to paper. Whether it was Brian or Carl or Diane or Banana, they don't remind me of the type of people who would fu-- with the record company. Capitol must've had a reason for the list; I don't see a good reason why a Beach Boy person would sabotage their own album/project by intentionally misleading the record company. Oh, I think Brian wrote it. The fact that he has no knowledge of it means A) he's lying, B) he doesn't remember, or C) he doesn't give a sh--  to get into it.

[Sam_BFC]

Was Our Prayer really recorded in C#m and sped up a tone?

[OneEar/OneEye]

Rereading the Vosse article I was struck by the point where he states that Surf's Up was to close the album and after that was done there'd be a sort of chorale amen.  Might that "chorale amen" have been "prayer"?   Might the "album opener" have been switched to be the album closer?   

[Chris Brown]

I guess I've never really considered anything other than "Prayer" to be the Smile opener.  Obviously Brian was prone to changing his mind frequently (that's an understatement, really), but if he says it was to be "a little intro to the album," I believe him.  It works so perfectly for me as an opener that I can't imagine it anywhere else. 

As for what may have followed it, they issue of keys definitely presents some challeneges.  Going from the B flat chord that "Prayer" ends on straight to the C # opening chord/key of "Heroes" doesn't work at all.  As others have pointed out, going to some variant of E flat is the most natural transition, which puts "Good Vibrations" and "Cabinessence" into play.  I personally like "Worms" following "Prayer."  It works key-wise ("Worms" being in F major, another good natural transition from the B flat chord), and it's a good starting point for the Smile journey - starting at Plymouth Rock and moving west.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And, finally, I put a lot of stock in the handwritten note sent to Capitol, whoever actually put the pen to paper... Oh, I think Brian wrote it.

Despite the fact that it looks nothing like his handwriting in the 60s but looks awfully like Carl's ?  This was discussed here at considerable length in recent years and the conclusion was it was very probably Carl, or just possibly Diane, but definitely not Brian.

[runnersdialzero]

And, finally, I put a lot of stock in the handwritten note sent to Capitol, whoever actually put the pen to paper... Oh, I think Brian wrote it.

Despite the fact that it looks nothing like his handwriting in the 60s but looks awfully like Carl's ?  This was discussed here at considerable length in recent years and the conclusion was it was very probably Carl, or just possibly Diane, but definitely not Brian.

In before someone else refuses to listen to logic and continues to say it's Brian.

[buddhahat]

Also, I've mentioned it a few times, but, to me, "Heroes And Villains" is also a "later" song, not an opening song. Almost all of the verbs are past tense (listen to them!); it just sounds awkward as an opener, when all he is singing about are things that already HAPPENED!   

Yes I agree with you about the past tense start to H&V. I think it would work very well as an opener to side 2 for this reason.

Rereading the Vosse article I was struck by the point where he states that Surf's Up was to close the album and after that was done there'd be a sort of chorale amen.  Might that "chorale amen" have been "prayer"?   Might the "album opener" have been switched to be the album closer?   

I have thought this too. NB also in the siegel article, the writer describes Brian playing the acetates of smile, and finishing with something that must be Our Prayer which makes me wonder whether Brian regarded it as a closer.  The only problem with the Vosse article is that he has heard 20/20 at this point, so why does he not describe Prayer either by name or make reference to it being on the new BB album? May be an oversight. Other people here have suggested that perhaps Vosse was referring to another piece similar to Prayer, or a truncated version, but I very much doubt there were any other choral pieces recorded during smile, and if it was a shortened version of Our Prayer, the similarity to the 20/20 version would still be obvious to Vosse. I do think there is a strong chance that Brian had OP follow Surf's Up as a closer at some point.

[Fall Breaks]

And, finally, I put a lot of stock in the handwritten note sent to Capitol, whoever actually put the pen to paper... Oh, I think Brian wrote it.

Despite the fact that it looks nothing like his handwriting in the 60s but looks awfully like Carl's ?  This was discussed here at considerable length in recent years and the conclusion was it was very probably Carl, or just possibly Diane, but definitely not Brian.

Has anyone asked Diane about it?

[Bicyclerider]

I have thought this too. NB also in the siegel article, the writer describes Brian playing the acetates of smile, and finishing with something that must be Our Prayer which makes me wonder whether Brian regarded it as a closer.  The only problem with the Vosse article is that he has heard 20/20 at this point, so why does he not describe Prayer either by name or make reference to it being on the new BB album? May be an oversight. Other people here have suggested that perhaps Vosse was referring to another piece similar to Prayer, or a truncated version, but I very much doubt there were any other choral pieces recorded during smile, and if it was a shortened version of Our Prayer, the similarity to the 20/20 version would still be obvious to Vosse. I do think there is a strong chance that Brian had OP follow Surf's Up as a closer at some point.
[/quote]

There's a Smile mix of Prayer with the next to last choral section removed - perhaps this was to be the closer. 

Vosse was not referring to Prayer as, since you mention, he had heard Prayer on 20/20 and would have said that piece was to be the closer.

The fact that there aren't any other choral pieces fitting the Vosse description doesn't mean anything - Brian might have planned to have a choral "Amen" kind of close which he talked about but never got around to recording.

Also, to an earlier poster - the fact that Prayer is not listed on the cover doesn't mean it wasn't to be included.  Brian specifically said Prayer was not going to be a "track" meaning it was not to be a "banded" separate titled track on the album, just an intro, so it would not have appeared on the cover or on the label as a track.

And let's not forget, despite the handwriting not being Brian's, MOST people (although not all) feel that the track list on the back was approved by Brian as producer, and is in effect his list, despite it not being his handwriting (and his not remembering it, which, as has been noted, these days doesn't mean that much).

[Andrew G. Doe]

The Vosse Fusion article is indeed fascinating - to my mind more for what he doesn't say than what he does.

[Cam Mott]

The Vosse Fusion article is indeed fascinating - to my mind more for what he doesn't say than what he does.

^dun * dun * _dun