What was to be the lead track on Smile?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think the 3rd 'dun' should be a half-tone higher... 

[Sheriff John Stone]

And, finally, I put a lot of stock in the handwritten note sent to Capitol, whoever actually put the pen to paper... Oh, I think Brian wrote it.

Despite the fact that it looks nothing like his handwriting in the 60s but looks awfully like Carl's ?  This was discussed here at considerable length in recent years and the conclusion was it was very probably Carl, or just possibly Diane, but definitely not Brian.

I vaguely remember the thread. I seem to recall a handwriting sample of Carl's from around Wild Honey(?) that resembled the handwriting on the SMiLE submitted list. I honestly don't remember that Brian was definitively ruled out. I certainly never ruled him out. I still think the handwriting could pass for Brian's. Anybody out there have a sample of Brian's handwriting circa 1966 and a copy of the SMiLE tracklist note that they could post? It would be interesting to compare - again....

[Sheriff John Stone]

Also, to an earlier poster - the fact that Prayer is not listed on the cover doesn't mean it wasn't to be included.  Brian specifically said Prayer was not going to be a "track" meaning it was not to be a "banded" separate titled track on the album, just an intro, so it would not have appeared on the cover or on the label as a track.

Interesting thoughts. If "Our Prayer" would've been, not a separate song, but an intro, it (the intro) would've been longer than some of Brian's complete songs! Also, if it was going to be an attached intro, could we rule out "Good Vibrations" as the song it was grafted to, or could we consider it a special "extended album version" of "Good Vibrations"? I can kinda hear "Our Prayer" attached to "Do You Like Worms" as that bombastic opening of "Worms" always sounded a little awkward. Now, preceding it with "Our Prayer" sounds a little better...

[OneEar/OneEye]

Our Prayer sounds real good preceding Cabin Essence (or Cabinessence, if you like) too (as it does on 20/20.) 
CE would have been a great opening track too, though I suppose if we have to be all linear in the progression of the album tracks then it would come too early, but do we have to be all linear?  If Smile was to have been a "whole trip across America" or whatever, then maybe not because a "trip' certainly isn't necessarily a linear experience (from what I've heard  ), but then if the "trip" was meant simply as a trip like one would take in their car across the country, then of course that'd sort of have to be linear. 
I kind of like starting with Child Is Father Of The Man, though maybe not following "prayer", as maybe "prayer" would've been the outro instead of the intro to the album (as has been bandied about), but then that's assuming Vosse had some clue of what he was talking about, which I have to sort of assume he did, though I would agree that what he didn't say is somewhat more compelling than what he did say. 
what is this edit with the next to last chorale section edited out?   If there is such an edit then maybe "prayer" would have bookended the album.   
Ok, now i need to sit down.  My head is spinning!   

[Cam Mott]

I think the 3rd 'dun' should be a half-tone higher... 

Done.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think the 3rd 'dun' should be a half-tone higher... 

Yeah! You're flatting. Surge! Surge!

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

My personal favorite comibination for SMiLE tracks has been:

1. Our Prayer
2. Good Vibrations
3. Heroes & Villains

I'll have to try Worms up front too..

[Reverend Rock]

This was much earlier in the thread, but it was mentioned about key relationships between "Our Prayer" and "Heroes and Villains".  I seriously doubt that Brian gave the kind of thought to key relationships that a trained composer would (though he obviously isn't unaware of them, either).

[Chris Brown]

This was much earlier in the thread, but it was mentioned about key relationships between "Our Prayer" and "Heroes and Villains".  I seriously doubt that Brian gave the kind of thought to key relationships that a trained composer would (though he obviously isn't unaware of them, either).

I'd have to disagree with this.  Working the way Brian was at the time (i.e. in sections) necessitated being increasingly aware of key relationships.  You have to be when you're stringing different pieces of music together to work as a coherent whole.  I'm not suggesting that the key relationships between tracks need to work, but if Prayer was going to be linked directly with the opening track, I would think that Brian would have wanted something that "worked" key-wise to follow it, as if they were two sections of the same track.  Especially during Smile, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have been thinking this way.

[buddhahat]

This was much earlier in the thread, but it was mentioned about key relationships between "Our Prayer" and "Heroes and Villains".  I seriously doubt that Brian gave the kind of thought to key relationships that a trained composer would (though he obviously isn't unaware of them, either).

I'd have to disagree with this.  Working the way Brian was at the time (i.e. in sections) necessitated being increasingly aware of key relationships.  You have to be when you're stringing different pieces of music together to work as a coherent whole.  I'm not suggesting that the key relationships between tracks need to work, but if Prayer was going to be linked directly with the opening track, I would think that Brian would have wanted something that "worked" key-wise to follow it, as if they were two sections of the same track.  Especially during Smile, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have been thinking this way.

Yes I agree that the intro into the lead song would definitely have mattered.

Isn't there some weird key relationships between songs on Pet Sounds, that shows that Brian was considering these things, like each song goes up a step or something?

[buddhahat]

Quoted from The Elements thread, but relevant to here:

I think it's logical to assume, in the absence of any other released BBs' singles on SMiLE, that either Heroes or Vibes could each have kicked-off either one of the two sides, esp if you go with the 12-track-no-links theory.  Just seemed formula at the time to start at least one side on each LP with a single.

Surfin' Safari had S'S and Surfin'
Surfin' USA had S'USA
Surfer Girl had SG and In My Room (B-side)
Little Deuce Coupe had LDC and Shut Down (B side)
Fun Fun Fun had FFF and Why Do Fools Fall In Love (B-side)
All Sumer Long had I Get Around and Wendy (EP-track and non-US B-side)
Christmas had Little St Nick
Today had Do You Wanna Dance and Please Let Me Wonder (B-side)
Summer Days! had California Girls
Pet Sounds had God Only Knows and Wouldn't It Be Nice (double A-side)

A theory based on the commercial aspects of releases, of which BW had to be aware. But just a theory.

This is a good point and if we presume this to be the case, then either Heroes or Vibes was to follow Our Prayer as the lead track. My money's on GV as Heroes is in the wrong key to follow Our Prayer. This then shifts H&V to the start of side 2, with Surf's Up as the closer.

I know there are a few assumptions being made here but they're very logical ones. If you go along with my above point, then the only tracks left to sequence (if we take the capitol list as our tracklist) are: Worms, Windchimes, Cabinessence, Wonderful, Great Shape, Child, The Elements, Vegetables and Old Master Painter.

[Andrew G. Doe]

, with Surf's Up as the closer.

Why, pray tell ?

[buddhahat]

, with Surf's Up as the closer.

Why, pray tell ?

Because it's the only track besides Prayer with any evidence of its placement in the album - admittedly only according to Vosse, but he's making this recollection only a year or so after Smile was scrapped, so I'm inclined to believe that Brian considered Surf's Up a closer at some point. That and it's the most natural closer to the album, isn't it?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Because it's the only track besides Prayer with any evidence of its placement in the album - admittedly only according to Vosse, but he's making this recollection only a year or so after Smile was scrapped, so I'm inclined to believe that Brian considered Surf's Up a closer at some point. That and it's the most natural closer to the album, isn't it?

 

[Wirestone]

I think the conventional wisdom of Our Prayer -> Heroes continues to make the most sense of anything. You can even take or leave Prayer (discarding Brian's bit of patter.) Just consider:

1.) It would have been the lead single.

2.) It is the central track for the entire album -- its segments and variations on the chorus are used throughout the other songs.

3.) It's up tempo and ear catching. It starts the album off with a bang. Much like Wouldn't It Be Nice on PS.

4.) It encapsulates the entire project in a few minutes -- you have full-on Van Dyke lyrics, multiple sections and giddy humor all wrapped into one.

5.) It structures the album as a narrative (and maybe this is a better argument for its placement on the '04 version), since it's the only overtly story-telling song.

I think points 2 and 4 are the strongest conceptually, and 1 and 3 are the strongest commercially. There's just no reason to think of Heroes in any other place. Yes, you could have led off side two with it, I suppose. But would Brian have really started his new album with an old single (GV)?

The key questions are interesting, but a red herring, I think. The project was so consistently in flux that those matters may well have still needed working out.

I will, however, agree that Surf's Up as the album's ending has always made a great deal of sense to me, and I was disappointed not to have it wrap up the '04 version. I think the structure works perfectly well, but something about Surf's Up seems very, well, final.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

See Label For Correct Playing Order= Brian had no idea how it was going to be sequenced.

[Fall Breaks]

See Label For Correct Playing Order= Brian had no idea how it was going to be sequenced.

Or rather a thousand ideas...

[buddhahat]

But I suspect some things would have remained fairly static i.e. the first tracks on each side, and the final track.

Claymcc makes a good case for H&V being the lead track. I think the best argument is that Brian might've been reluctant to put an older single as the first track. However at the start of the project I see no reason why GV was not a strong and very commercial contender for lead track, and personally I feel the effectiveness of the transition from OP to GV suggests it was to kick off the album to begin with, even if it was to be usurped by H&V later on in the project. I have a hard time believing that Brian would have followed Prayer with H&V as it simply doesn't sound good, and if it was to be the lead track then maybe Prayer was out of the running by then. Just my hunches but there you go.

[pixletwin]

I can't imagine Brian ever having wanted Surf's Up as a closer. What a downer for an end track. 

[Reverend Rock]

I can't imagine Brian ever having wanted Surf's Up as a closer. What a downer for an end track. 

And "Caroline, No" is like a really peppy closer???

[pixletwin]

I can't imagine Brian ever having wanted Surf's Up as a closer. What a downer for an end track. 

And "Caroline, No" is like a really peppy closer???

Pet Sounds was telling a very different kind of story.

[Reverend Rock]

I can't imagine Brian ever having wanted Surf's Up as a closer. What a downer for an end track. 

And "Caroline, No" is like a really peppy closer???

Pet Sounds was telling a very different kind of story.

True, but before BWPS, "Surf's Up" as the closing track made perfect sense to me.  It's not really a downer if you recognize that the lyric ends in a revelation, a "wonderful thing, a children's song".  So to me, "Surf's Up" is about spiritual growth and revelation, not altogether tragic, although there is tragedy in the lyric, it is resolved in the end to a state of peace and acceptance.

[OneEar/OneEye]

Surf's Up a downer?   
It's made me feel many things, but bummed out has never been one of them. 

[pixletwin]

Whatever the lyrics say, the music is mournful and certainly comes to no real resolution. Both factors which are largely against using it as an album closer for me. IMO of course.

[Reverend Rock]

Surf's Up a downer?   
It's made me feel many things, but bummed out has never been one of them. 

Well, I can understand it as a "downer" in some respects.  VDP's lyric is, in fact, a lament for the most part.  But like I said earlier, it ends with a revelation of wonder.  That resolves whatever "downer" aspect exists, for me.