About Making Music.

[the captain]

This isn't a thread to post music so much as to discuss making it. I thought it would be fun to hear people who create chime in now and again about their experiences: process, theory, inspiration, craft, what they're up to at the moment, or whatever else. I, for one, just reminded myself that I'm an absolutely terrible--terrible drummer. (Any good drumming on any of my songs is by one of two talented people, neither of whose names is Luther.) I took a song that I've never quite finished to add some drumming, set up some unimpressive mic'ing (I'm no engineer, either) and proceeded to piss myself off for about an hour on this 2-minute song. I don't like the cut-and-paste approach, but it might end up happening. Luckily for me, I'm off to lunch with a friend. Maybe I'll come back tonight sufficiently relaxed to do the part. Maybe I'll come back suddenly, unexpectedly good at drumming. Maybe I'll come back tonight having kidnapped a drummer.

[the captain]

btw, does anyone else notice that immediately upon posting anything in this forum (maybe the others, too, but I haven't noticed it), threads immediately have something like 16 visits? Is that just the site indexing new threads? Or are there people so bored that they hop on every new thread so quickly?

[matt-zeus]

I'd quite like to be a drummer but have poor coordination and no drumkit. I did play on a friend of mines once along to 'Exile on Main Street' which was fun while it lasted. I'd also like to be able to play pedal steel guitar.
As far as writing songs is concerned most of the time the melodies come first then the words are written to fit that - apart from a lot of the choruses where a phrase or expression will trigger the melody for it and thus will then be 'the hook' and the start of the song. I will write chord sequences around the melody generally as then they are slightly more interesting, i'll only start a song off with chord sequences if the chords are quirky and I can fit something around that.
I hate those chart type MOR songs with a 4 chord sequence made up of something you've heard before (I'm sure most people know what I mean) as the melodies over it are usually unremarkable, you can also tell where the song is going to go. I also don't like writing lyrics first as then the rhythm of the words tends to dictate the rhythm of the melody (unless you're Elton John who seems to be able to do not do that).

[the captain]

OK, I'm home. Will I drum again? Hmmm ... maybe I'll give it a shot. Report back forthcoming.

[Manchini]

I like to come up with a harmonic sequence that fits whatever mood/idea I'm working with, and then find a cool path in the notes to come up with the melody (I write on the piano, so by "path" I'm referring to, for example, the pattern of F#-A-B-D.  Whatever looks fun at the moment) and I fool around with that for a while.

I'm a really really slow worker, and even slower when it comes to writing and recording songs.  It's not that I like to dwell on things until I reach perfection, I'm simply slow.  I arrange pretty simple tracks but guitars and drums are sounds I often want in the song, and since I can't play either instrument I have to wait until a friend wants to help out.  I did just buy a Yamaha DD-5 drum machine.  Not ideal, but it makes all the difference to have at least some drum sounds.  I'm not good at any single instrument, but I love putting together a track.

I've only been heavily into music for about 3 years, and I've only been writing songs for the last year maybe.  And not prolifically at that.  So I'm definitely still working on finding my voice as a songwriter (and literally as a singer). 

I could probably ramble on a lot more.  They say it's no use talking about making music ("Talking about music is like dancing about architecture," however the saying goes) but I love discussing it as much as I like making it.  Cool thread.

[the captain]

I'm a really really slow worker, and even slower when it comes to writing and recording songs.  It's not that I like to dwell on things until I reach perfection, I'm simply slow. ...
I could probably ramble on a lot more.  They say it's no use talking about making music ("Talking about music is like dancing about architecture," however the saying goes) but I love discussing it as much as I like making it.  Cool thread.

I'm the opposite: I like to write fast, arrange/learn fast, and record fast. The results show it, of course, but so what? I'm not trying to sell anything! For me, I just want to get as much as possible "done," which is a tough term to define considering I revisit previously completed songs more than occasionally. As for talking about music, I'm with you. It's very interesting to me to hear how people go about things, not necessarily to steal ideas or try to find that special path so much as just discussing a shared interest. So I'm glad you're on board.

[the captain]

OK, I'm home. Will I drum again? Hmmm ... maybe I'll give it a shot. Report back forthcoming.

OK, I did it. I won't claim I drummed well, but I got through the song, anyway. Also just mixed it. I'll post in a moment in its own thread. The song (the basic track of which was posted here at some point a couple years ago, I believe) is called "Miserable Gray."

[the captain]

Listening again to that drumming of earlier today. Ugh. This is the downfall of recording: proof of incompetence.

[Chris Brown]

Glad you started this thread Luther.  It's always interesting to hear about how others write/record/etc.

I work a lot differently than I used to.  My recording approach was a lot like yours when I was just starting out recording, around 17-18 years old.  I wrote songs quickly, recorded them within an hour and was done.  As you say, the results usually do reflect working that fast, but at the time I didn't care so much.  I suppose that was partly because I just thought it was cool to be recording songs that I'd written myself, but also because at the time, I didn't have the technical proficiency as a singer/player or knowledge of recording to do any better.  I can't listen to most of those recordings now (the mistakes drive me nuts), but they were good learning experiences in writing and recording.

Up until this past September, I really hadn't undertaken a recording project in about 5 years, so I wasn't sure what to expect.  But once I got going, I realized that I'm a lot more anal about my recording than I used to be.  Obviously, this makes the whole process a lot more time consuming than it used to be as well.  Nowadays, I need everything to be as perfect as possible (at least as perfect as my abilities allow).  On this recent project, I would agonize over every little thing, remix up to 7 or 8 times, and just generally drive myself crazy trying to make my recordings sound like I envisioned them.  In the end, I finished my project, and even though there are still a hundred things that I would like to fix, I came to realize that most people listening to the songs won't hear the little things that I consider errors.  The few times I've tried pointing them out to people, they think I'm crazy.  So in the end, I just try to make peace with what I've done, and consider it a learning experience that I can use to do even better next time. 

And believe me Luther, I know the feeling of listening back at something you've recorded and thinking "wow, I really suck" all too well.   

[the captain]

Up until this past September, I really hadn't undertaken a recording project in about 5 years, so I wasn't sure what to expect.  But once I got going, I realized that I'm a lot more anal about my recording than I used to be. 

Interesting: I experienced a very similar change after a break. I had recorded (4-track cassette) throughout high school, with a clueless, rushed approach. (Actually I worked very hard at the playing in those days ... just not at all on the engineering.) But then I had about five years off. Upon my return, I, too, was much, much more meticulous. But then that newfound approach faded. I think the reason is that I just lose interest in the entire process when I take so long. Don't get me wrong, I can still suddenly take two hours on a single part when the spirit strikes, but more often, once it begins to feel like work, well, it feels like work. And I hate work. (I actually wonder if I'd want to stop making music altogether if it ever were my job. I think I would. Once something is required, it is unpleasant to me.)

[the captain]

Practiced some drums today. Tuned them up a little, which is something I am more or less clueless about, other than going on instinct. (No specific sound or goals in mind: just a "this is better/worse than that" approach.) With quite a few tunes in just guitar-vocals or piano-vocals scratch/demo status, I know I'm going to have to get to them finished, and part of that will be getting drums on them. Bandless (thank gods), that means either I hire someone, get a friend to do them on the cheap (which is hard to schedule), or just suck it up and do them myself. That's what I'll do. For better or--far, far more likely--for worse.

[Fall Breaks]

I also start with either the melody or a phrase that sounds "promising" in my head. Sometimes, these phrases are deliberately drawn from working titles from BB/BW songs (which is why I'm currently working on a song called "You're Grass And I'm A Power Mower"). Mostly, I finish writing the melody and chords the same day or maybe the day after I began. Lyrics take a little longer.

As for the recording process, I have the past few years acquired equipment (Presonus Firepod sound card, Cubase et c) that I thought would make me much more productive when it comes to recording. I have many dozens of songs written that I'm satisfied with, but only a few of them are recorded. I thought it all would change when this new, userfriendly equipment came my way. It didn't. If anything, I record less now, which really bugs me.

[grillo]

When I write songs alone I usually just sit down at the piano or guitar and see what happens. Usually I'll have some basic chord idea in my head and that may or may not end up being the basis for the song. As I'm sure you know, the next step is some magical process where the song creates its self, leading me to places I wouldn't consciously get to. At least the good songs do that. If it takes more than about twenty minutes to get at least a verse and chorus written I usually move on or give up. After that it may take a day or two of having the song in my head to finish it, but really the chords and words come together as one in that first twenty minutes.
Recording on 4-track or 8-track cassette is usually quick and often crappily played, but if i do say so myself, I am the all-time 4-track guy. I've recorded dozens of bands on that old thing, and even though I stopped years ago I still get weekly calls from folks who'd like me to record them. I've had the same Tascam for about 15 years and have replaced the motor in it 4 times! The 8-track is for my lazy days. Anyway, you get the idea.

[the captain]

After having had it pointed out to me by a friend who noticed the trend, I've realized that I "wrote" significant parts of many of my songs over the past five or six years while on walks. Not that I fully work them out--I'm not creating entire arrangements in y glorious mind!--but I sing melodies, lyric fragments, etc., repeating a little more and a little more as I go. It helps burn an otherwise transitory moment into my mind, I guess. And the streets, lakes, creek, parks and people just help me be creative, I think. When I get home I usually jot down the words and work out the chords that accompany the melody, so I won't forget them.

[hypehat]

I get that too Luther. Usually followed by a mad dash to the nearest musical instrument/piece of paper before it goes away again 


I'm terrible at leaving things half finished. I have an entire albums worth of material that's either missing bridges, some don't have words, others are just fragments.... and i spent most of the autumn going 'i'll do that soon' and now i'm writing new songs, so they're sliding further in the distance. That first hour whilst writing is so important, isn't it?

What instrument do you guys primarily write on, if any? and do you notice little trends in how you write - for instance, i've all but stopped writing on the guitar as of late, which is annoying seeing as it's the only instrument i have on me besides a ukelele (which is actually alright for writing - you get the 'funny' chords quite easily, but have only been playing since xmas)

[the captain]

I find that half-finished songs are best just left alone until they make their way back. I've got some, either partly written or totally written but not fully arranged or well recorded, dating back almost a decade. I'd guess in all there are probably 35-50 such songs, though surely some don't deserve to be finished and never well be. But when they do come back, either through some occasional, casual revisitation or just an unlikely reappearance in the mind, that's when they're just wonderful, a lot of fun to relearn, rework, rethink. Sometimes they go in wholly new directions, other times they are found to be fine as they were and just a pleasure to touch up. (Sometimes they can go to straight to the trash.)

[hypehat]

man, i hope you're right. There's always that nagging voice in the back of the mind that keeps telling me to stop being lazy, get to a piano and finish them. My inner Murry, i suppose.

On the recording side of things, is it worth buying a 4-track off ebay in this digital day and age? i always wanted one, being a bit of a lo-fi nut, but wondering if the geekish thrill of owning one would subside and i'd go back to using the computer after a week. anybody here use them? would you say they were worth it (bearing in mind they're cheap)? easy to use? etc

[grillo]

On the recording side of things, is it worth buying a 4-track off ebay in this digital day and age? i always wanted one, being a bit of a lo-fi nut, but wondering if the geekish thrill of owning one would subside and i'd go back to using the computer after a week. anybody here use them? would you say they were worth it (bearing in mind they're cheap)? easy to use? etc

4-track is my personal fave way of recording because of all the decisions it forces you to make during each step. It gives you real discipline ie, you can't just record 8 million tracks and see what sounds good. You also get a better feel for what guys like Brian and Jan had to deal with. I can't recommend the enough!!!

[Manchini]

It gives you real discipline ie, you can't just record 8 million tracks and see what sounds good.

Yep, for sure.  Also, I record on a 4 track because I don't have a computer capable of handling multitracking.  My 4 track won't delay and crash on me, and the interface on my computer likely will.

[hypehat]

Sounds good! now all i have to do is watch ebay like a hawk until my student loan returns......

[the captain]

I'll offer a dissenting voice, but with an explanation. I think the bulk of a cassette 4-track's charm (assuming that's what you mean, as opposed to higher quality tape) is just the nostalgia. Cassettes sound bad. The planning and ping-ponging are great experience, but nothing you can't artificially force on yourself with a computer. That said, I'd guess you can find a cheap one, so if you want to give it a shot, go for it.

[grillo]

Well Luth, I have to say you're dead wrong about cassettes sounding bad. Perhaps if you don't know what you are doing that would be true, but, like anything else, if you actually take the time to learn the craft you'll find they sound way better than the sterile, empty sound of digital recording. I have never heard a digital recording that has even 1/10th the warmth of analog, which is why guys like Neil Young abandoned digital after experimenting with it for years. I realize its a matter of personal taste, but i honestly can't think of a single reason to choose digital over analog (even 4-track cassette) other than laziness.

[the captain]

Don't pull any punches there, grillo. Anyway, I'm dead wrong, don't know what I am doing, don't take the time to learn the craft, and love sterile emptiness: it's my personal taste. Neil Young isn't a good example to toss my way, either, in that I hate his music. If you want my old Tascam cassette 4-track, you're welcome to it. (My real response would be a reiteration of your well-hidden admission that it is a matter of taste is correct. I'd follow that it isn't necessary to couch that in a "my taste is better than your taste," and that for me, whatever warmth people hear with analog music just isn't that big a deal. I'd rather have the options and simplicity digital recording offers, particularly in that I'm not someone with a studio sending him here or there to work in the analog realm at a decent studio where I could get both the magical warmth fairies and the freedom of pro gear.)

[TdHabib]

Luther, I don't want to derail but I'm always curious: Why don't you (or anybody that doesn't) like Neil Young? Is it the voice, melody, lyrics, guitar playing, style? It's just he's one of my favorites but I guess we'll have a trade-off (I don't care for Belle & Sebastian, you don't care for Neil Young)

[the captain]

Luther, I don't want to derail but I'm always curious: Why don't you (or anybody that doesn't) like Neil Young? Is it the voice, melody, lyrics, guitar playing, style? It's just he's one of my favorites but I guess we'll have a trade-off (I don't care for Belle & Sebastian, you don't care for Neil Young)

There is no derailing this thread: listening to music is a big part of making it, I'd say, so it's fair game what we like and don't (as it gets us to what we make, and don't). Neil Young has never struck any chord with me to make me want to listen more. I've forced myself through a couple of albums--After the Goldrush, Harvest, a couple others--and songs here and there (including earlier and later stuff. But there isn't really anything that has ever made me want to do it again. The multiple chances I've given him have been because I have changed my mind on plenty of musicians before (including Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, and the aforementioned Belle & Sebastian, whose early work did nothing for me but more produced, later stuff hit the spot). So it might happen someday. Up 'til now, I don't even want to take the time to listen for what I don't like about it. Does that make any sense?