Inequity: Material versus Performance or Production

[the captain]

One thing that has always astounded me with the Beach Boys has been the ways to love them. The hits are almost inarguable, but there are other things that so many different people like for so many different reasons.

For me, one of those things is that sometimes the material strikes me as fantastic, but the performance or production is lacking. And other times, the exact opposite is true for my tastes. The most glaring examples for me is Brian's 88 album, material I mostly like and production I don't. Wild Honey never sounded great to me, despite good material and performances. KTSA falls into that category to a far, far lesser extent. And while I really love Love You, I'd also kill (don't worry, not you) to hear it done by a circa 1970 Beach Boys. On the other hand, LA is a good-sounding album for the most part, but I don't like the songs. To a lesser extent, ditto for Holland and C&TP:ST.

If the topic tickles your fancy, speak. Better yet, type.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most of us feel that way, the way you described. The Beach Boys were talented in so many different ways - singing, songwriting, producing, arranging, even playing to a lesser extent - that when one aspect comes up a little short, another one will shine, and save the day! Which is why I like every Beach Boys album....

[the captain]

But I want examples, SJS. Because--and call me crazy, here--I anticipate that somebody's example will be diametrically opposed to mine. And vice versa. And that's good Internetting. (Fight! Fight! Fight!)

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I'll use 15 Big Ones as an example.....I really dig that album, as flawed as it is. The new material isn't that great, and the choice of oldies is very questionable. Yet, it has a vibe.

It's Brian Wilson Production 101, it's Brian's Spector tribute album, it's Brian's real rock & roll album, it's a guy going into the studio and recording exactly what's in his brain, what's in his heart. This was Wrecking Crew stuff. And I can't get enough of that. When Brian puts his real production and arranging touch on a song, even a weak(er) song, it will succeed. It will give out something. It's worthwhile on some level.

So many things try to kill 15 Big Ones - Mike went nasal, Dennis went hoarse, Brian almost ruins everything he touches ("Had To Phone Ya" and "Just Once In My Life"). But, it has something going for it that overcomes all of that. It has spirit. It has enthusiasm. It's an honest picture, a snapshot, of the Beach Boys in 1976. You can almost feel their personalities at that time. And I like that, despite the sub-par material. 

[DonnaK]

Crap! Shoot me.......I agree with BOTH of you!!!!!

[Roger Ryan]

It's too bloody obvious, but SMILEY SMILE is one where the songs are mostly great, but the production is weak.

Perhaps a better example would come earlier for me: While the material is spottier, I really like the clean in-your-face production of SURFIN' USA and SURFER GIRL; sometimes more than the kitchen sink muddiness of TODAY where the songs are stronger.

WILD HONEY does seem to be that point where the songs are good and the arrangements are fairly strong, but the lead vocals and overall production are weak. This is an album that would have sounded great performed and produced by '72 era BBs.

I adore the vocal sound of '69/'70 Brian (that high, almost metallic shrill sound that some dislike), so I love to listen to things like "Susie Cincinatti" and "Good Time" even if the songs themselves are less than great.

[the captain]

I adore the vocal sound of '69/'70 Brian (that high, almost metallic shrill sound that some dislike), so I love to listen to things like "Susie Cincinatti" and "Good Time" even if the songs themselves are less than great.

You've got a friend in me, sir. Thought I think those are both fine songs. Great? No. But fine.

On Today, I agree in parts. Do You Wanna Dance is the best example of something that is a good song, great performance and subpar production to me.

[Chris Brown]

It's too bloody obvious, but SMILEY SMILE is one where the songs are mostly great, but the production is weak.

I've got to disagree here.  I actually think the production on Smiley is quite brilliant...so understated that it's often dismissed as "bad," "weak," or non-existent.  It may sound that way to some (and I can certainly see why), but the lo-fi sound is so integral to the greatness of the album. 

[hypehat]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I'll use 15 Big Ones as an example.....I really dig that album, as flawed as it is. The new material isn't that great, and the choice of oldies is very questionable. Yet, it has a vibe.

It's Brian Wilson Production 101, it's Brian's Spector tribute album, it's Brian's real rock & roll album, it's a guy going into the studio and recording exactly what's in his brain, what's in his heart. This was Wrecking Crew stuff. And I can't get enough of that. When Brian puts his real production and arranging touch on a song, even a weak(er) song, it will succeed. It will give out something. It's worthwhile on some level.

So many things try to kill 15 Big Ones - Mike went nasal, Dennis went hoarse, Brian almost ruins everything he touches ("Had To Phone Ya" and "Just Once In My Life"). But, it has something going for it that overcomes all of that. It has spirit. It has enthusiasm. It's an honest picture, a snapshot, of the Beach Boys in 1976. You can almost feel their personalities at that time. And I like that, despite the sub-par material. 

I tend to agree, but most of it's charm is that it's not even an accurate Phil Spector impersonation - That's Today, or Summer days, or even Pet Sounds. 15 Big Ones has some of the elements, (bells, the occassional string), but the rest of it is so off-kilter, with that roaring moog bass, blaring saxes upfront in the mix and even the vocals (I always thought they sped up Mike's voice!) that it makes it so alluringly different. It's even more interesting than what Spector was doing at that time....

I'm not sure with Today whether the problem is the production or some tape issue - someone more techy might be able to tell me what condition the master tape is in, but the muddiness sounds like that department over here. I actually quite like the production on DYWD?,  the fader thing is kind of subtle, unlike Rhonda, which is just cheesy.

[The Heartical Don]

I think Wild Honey is a missed opportunity. A BIG missed opportunity. The songs are great for the most part, but the production is absolutely sub-standard, and that is putting it mildly. It sounds like the masters were recorded onto an 8-track cartridge, then recorded again on a compact cassette, and only then put on vinyl. That the sleeve is easily my favourite in the BBs catalogue (with All Summer Long having the second spot) aggravates my opinion.

[lance]

Has anybody heard Today! in mono on vinyl? I'm sure somebody has? i have a suspicion that it might sound a hell of a lot better that way...that said, I don't care. The muddy sound itself doesn't bother me, perhaps the lack of stereo bothers me more, on the other hand I generally can't stand Chuck Britz stereo mixes(I mean, they're ok for the time, I guess) and prefer the mono mixes...No, I'm not including Today! in the 'bad production' list.
Wild Honey, sure, but not Today.

[Quincy]

 When I first heard Wild Honey in 1967..my first thought was..Brian's left hand on the piano was the main  sound of that record

[The Heartical Don]

When I first heard Wild Honey in 1967..my first thought was..Brian's left hand on the piano was the main  sound of that record

  my quibble is the weak, compressed mono-sound, and the tinny and distorted organ on the title track (and How She Boogalooed It).

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

Many people have heard the SOT Wild Honey tracks, and even the unmixed stereo tracks sound significantly better.

I wonder if there were any overdubs done to the mono masters in this case, which would prevent them from being 100% available in stereo.

That practice may have been phased out by then, but I wouldn't know myself. I know the horns were missing on the SOT Darlin' tracks. Anyone?

[PongHit]

How bout some examples of albums with material & production that are perfectly matched?  Off the top of my head: FRIENDS, & PS.

[The Heartical Don]

How bout some examples of albums with material & production that are perfectly matched?  Off the top of my head: FRIENDS, & PS.

Seconded. I'd like to add Sunflower. About Surf's Up, I am not so sure.

[phirnis]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I'll use 15 Big Ones as an example.....I really dig that album, as flawed as it is. The new material isn't that great, and the choice of oldies is very questionable. Yet, it has a vibe.

It's Brian Wilson Production 101, it's Brian's Spector tribute album, it's Brian's real rock & roll album, it's a guy going into the studio and recording exactly what's in his brain, what's in his heart. This was Wrecking Crew stuff. And I can't get enough of that. When Brian puts his real production and arranging touch on a song, even a weak(er) song, it will succeed. It will give out something. It's worthwhile on some level.

So many things try to kill 15 Big Ones - Mike went nasal, Dennis went hoarse, Brian almost ruins everything he touches ("Had To Phone Ya" and "Just Once In My Life"). But, it has something going for it that overcomes all of that. It has spirit. It has enthusiasm. It's an honest picture, a snapshot, of the Beach Boys in 1976. You can almost feel their personalities at that time. And I like that, despite the sub-par material. 

Couldn't agree more about 15 Big Ones. This one has really grown on me and is now even becoming a favourite of mine. Come to think of it, the music and sonic textures have "Brian Wilson" written all over them and today I really wish BW would do some of this material in concert as it would suit his latter-day voice just perfectly - "That Same Song" comes to mind, which really could be lots of fun when performed instead of some song Brian doesn't seem to like these days.

[Mr. Cohen]

It's Brian Wilson Production 101, it's Brian's Spector tribute album, it's Brian's real rock & roll album, it's a guy going into the studio and recording exactly what's in his brain, what's in his heart. This was Wrecking Crew stuff. And I can't get enough of that. When Brian puts his real production and arranging touch on a song, even a weak(er) song, it will succeed. It will give out something. It's worthwhile on some level.

Yeah, i just leafed through a copy of Catch a Wave at a bookstore and was interesting reading about the 15 Big Ones period. I guess Brian would complain a lot about having "no fire", no desire to work in the studio. On "Blueberry Hill" he had a lot of the old Wrecking Crew on the track, but after one complete take, in which the musicians were still trying to properly tune their instruments, learn the material, and get in sync, Brian goes in the control booth and tells them they did a "great job" and darts out of the studio. That basically sums up 15 Big Ones in a nutshell. Later, after 15 Big Ones comes out, Brian apologizes to a reporter and says that next time he'll record a real masterpiece, "like 'Good Vibrations'". What came next? Love You. Was it the next great vibration? I don't know about that, but it at least seems like Brian tried a lot more.

The book also had an interesting story about "Solar System". One day Brian was alone in a studio (did he still have his home studio?), and someone peeped in and saw him vacantly staring at stained glass window with the various planets on it. Later that day, he came out of the studio with a completed vision for the song "Solar System". With this and the story about Wild Honeys cover, I think we should all start buying Brian some more stained glass windows for inspiration.

[Aegir]

Beach Boys '85 is full of mediocre songs and bad production, but great vocals.

[hypehat]

The book also had an interesting story about "Solar System". One day Brian was alone in a studio (did he still have his home studio?), and someone peeped in and saw him vacantly staring at stained glass window with the various planets on it. Later that day, he came out of the studio with a completed vision for the song "Solar System". With this and the story about Wild Honeys cover, I think we should all start buying Brian some more stained glass windows for inspiration.

The home studio was gone in 74 - thats why the Caribou sessions were held where they were held.

[buddhahat]

But I want examples, SJS. Because--and call me crazy, here--I anticipate that somebody's example will be diametrically opposed to mine. And vice versa. And that's good Internetting. (Fight! Fight! Fight!)

well, I like the generally crappy production of Love You (with the exception of The Night Was So Young). There's something very immediate about it, in the same way that Brian's piano demos of the time are also fascinating to hear. I'd say Love You wouldn't necessarily be improved with better production. that said, The Night Was So Young, as I understnd it mostly Carl's production, sounds stellar so maybe I'm talking rubbish here.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

This is just why albums are what they are for most bands: they're snapshots of a group of people at that very moment. Each album is flavored by the circumstances surrounding it's creation and will have it's own sound and feel. There's no way around it!

[the captain]

This is just why albums are what they are for most bands: they're snapshots of a group of people at that very moment. Each album is flavored by the circumstances surrounding it's creation and will have it's own sound and feel. There's no way around it!

That is why I really respect artists with the strength to acknowledge that, basically just making and leaving an album, as opposed to working on some unattainable masterpiece. Not to say that the resulting album can't be a masterpiece, but "masterpiece" is more often than not a moving target, and the longer you take to perfect it, the further that target moves. Your taste changes, other people's tastes change, and you're more likely to suck any fun out of it than make that masterpiece. Even those labored brilliant works like Pet Sounds and Sgt Pepper didn't really take all that long--not by modern standards.

So people like Dylan or Lou Reed or Prince or Zappa who just made albums, released them and keep going ... I like that. I don't have the personal discipline for it, though. I like to revisit and tinker.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Perfectly put!!!!!

[?]

Has anybody heard Today! in mono on vinyl? I'm sure somebody has? i have a suspicion that it might sound a hell of a lot better that way...that said, I don't care. The muddy sound itself doesn't bother me, perhaps the lack of stereo bothers me more, on the other hand I generally can't stand Chuck Britz stereo mixes(I mean, they're ok for the time, I guess) and prefer the mono mixes...No, I'm not including Today! in the 'bad production' list.
Wild Honey, sure, but not Today.

Today on vinyl is nothing special.  Capitol vinyl in the 60's just wasn't impressive - they tended to cut both the high and low end.  My favorite version of Today is the Japanese Pastmasters cd.  It gets a lot of criticisms for the tape dropouts, but whatever.  It is what it is.  I have high hopes for the upcoming vinyl repress though.

I have to disagree that Wild Honey is badly produced.  It's low-fi for sure, but I don't think the approach is inappropriate for the material.  It works for me.