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Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
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Topic: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes (Read 20740 times)
Andrew G. Doe
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #50 on:
October 19, 2013, 11:33:25 PM »
Donny L can give you chapter and verse on this, but I'm sure I read once that at least some the consoles of the day were
wired
hard left-center-hard right. It wasn't a mix, as we understand it: Chuck just copied the 3-track, with a few tweaks.
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Custom Machine
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #51 on:
October 20, 2013, 01:18:03 AM »
Quote from: A. Grayham Doe on October 19, 2013, 11:33:25 PM
Donny L can give you chapter and verse on this, but I'm sure I read once that at least some the consoles of the day were
wired
hard left-center-hard right. It wasn't a mix, as we understand it: Chuck just copied the 3-track, with a few tweaks.
Yes, I've also heard that some of those old consoles were hard wired left, center, and right, thus resulting in an ultra wide stereo effect when mixed to stereo rather than mono. But when mixed so that you had anywhere from a little to a lot of different program material in the left and right channels it was considered to be a stereo, rather than mono, mix.
Here's a link to a YouTube video of a 1959 AudioFidelity Stereo Demonstration Disc for an example of what was considered cool stereo reproduction back in the day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Wt_Avpx3E
«
Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 01:18:54 AM by Custom Machine
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runnersdialzero
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #52 on:
October 20, 2013, 01:15:49 PM »
Chuck's mixes are indeed true stereo, if not especially well done given the technical limitations of the day and the stereo format being low priority at the time.
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Andrew G. Doe
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #53 on:
October 20, 2013, 03:10:40 PM »
Quote from: Custom Machine on October 20, 2013, 01:18:03 AM
Here's a link to a YouTube video of a 1959 AudioFidelity Stereo Demonstration Disc for an example of what was considered cool stereo reproduction back in the day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Wt_Avpx3E
Man, how disappointing - maybe it's me, but I don't hear anything more than two discrete mono channels (there's nothing coming "down the middle"), and the 'panning' is... woeful.
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darling
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #54 on:
October 21, 2013, 12:00:56 PM »
Quote from: A. Grayham Doe on October 19, 2013, 02:32:09 PM
It's not complete (doesn't include
MiC
), and needs re-writing badly, but this gives you a broad overview:
Bellagio 10452 - mono/stereo
Thank you - that's great.
It doesn't look like it includes all the variations out there. I'm thinking someone might have to sit down with Excel and a stiff drink and try and make even more sense of what's out there. I wish I had the time for that someone to be me.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #55 on:
October 21, 2013, 01:09:33 PM »
Quote from: A. Grayham Doe on October 19, 2013, 11:33:25 PM
Donny L can give you chapter and verse on this, but I'm sure I read once that at least some the consoles of the day were
wired
hard left-center-hard right. It wasn't a mix, as we understand it: Chuck just copied the 3-track, with a few tweaks.
Right, there were not pan pots, so your only choice was to have everything on a track in one speaker or in both. And I still haven't been able to find confirmation for this myth, but I've come across it enough that it might be true: Chuck (and Brian) tended to monitor the stereo mixes in mono.
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DonnyL
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
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Reply #56 on:
October 21, 2013, 11:33:04 PM »
... and I believe (at least initally), proper 3-track recording was monitored with three speakers. This makes sense, as the sound would be more true. Not sure how it was set up for Beach Boys sessions. I've mentioned this before, but I really can't stress enough that the 'mix' as a separate thing is really a modern concept. They were just finishing the record, which was envisioned in mono. Stereo was a distraction at best, which is why it was phased out in the Beach Boys' world by late '64. For all we know, they just made the mono mix and had an assistant engineer or tape op route it to stereo on a second deck, or someone came in later to do it. I doubt Brian was present for any of the stereo mixes. Stereo was not given serious consideration in any decision-making ... the end result is that Brian accepted Duophonic, as the only use he had for stereo was as a gimmick for Capitol to charge $1 more per LP.
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Andrew G. Doe
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #57 on:
October 22, 2013, 02:18:30 AM »
Beach Boys stereo mixes 1963/64 were the work of Chuck. Brian probably listened to ten seconds of track one and nodded.
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Bicyclerider
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #58 on:
October 23, 2013, 08:36:55 AM »
Quote from: DonnyL on October 21, 2013, 11:33:04 PM
... and I believe (at least initally), proper 3-track recording was monitored with three speakers. This makes sense, as the sound would be more true. Not sure how it was set up for Beach Boys sessions. I've mentioned this before, but I really can't stress enough that the 'mix' as a separate thing is really a modern concept. They were just finishing the record, which was envisioned in mono. Stereo was a distraction at best, which is why it was phased out in the Beach Boys' world by late '64. For all we know, they just made the mono mix and had an assistant engineer or tape op route it to stereo on a second deck, or someone came in later to do it. I doubt Brian was present for any of the stereo mixes. Stereo was not given serious consideration in any decision-making ... the end result is that Brian accepted Duophonic, as the only use he had for stereo was as a gimmick for Capitol to charge $1 more per LP.
i find it strange though that while Brian stopped having his songs mixed into stereo, Capitol was insisting the Beatles deliver stereo masters of songs not mixed into stereo for the UK yet, as they wanted/needed stereo album releases with single cuts on them. Even to the point in 66 of getting unreleased songs destined for Revolver to receive early stereo mixes now unavailable anywhere else. If Capitol could make the Beatles do specific stereo mixes for the American market, they couldn't get Brian to let Chuck make stereo mixes of Today and Summer Days and Pet Sounds? As you say, the big incentive was to be able to charge more the stereo album. They should have given buyers a discount on the dreaded duophonic mixes!
BTW supposedly some stereo mixes were made by Chuck for Today, but then the stereo idea was abandoned and the mixes were either wiped or lost.
«
Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 08:38:16 AM by Bicyclerider
»
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runnersdialzero
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #59 on:
October 23, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »
Quote from: darling on October 21, 2013, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: A. Grayham Doe on October 19, 2013, 02:32:09 PM
It's not complete (doesn't include
MiC
), and needs re-writing badly, but this gives you a broad overview:
Bellagio 10452 - mono/stereo
Thank you - that's great.
It doesn't look like it includes all the variations out there. I'm thinking someone might have to sit down with Excel and a stiff drink and try and make even more sense of what's out there. I wish I had the time for that someone to be me.
It's a mess. The various remasters are also a pain given, to me, most tracks sound best on the Japan Pastmasters series, but sometimes they don't, and a few of the Pastmasters albums have one or two duophonic mixes on them due to Capitol being dummies. The 2012 stereo/mono remasters are pretty decent and are surely better transfers of the masters than discs that came out in the 80s, but they're not for everyone, aren't without their faults and aren't always preferable to earlier sources, be it just some songs or the whole album.
Sheeeeit.
«
Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 11:33:47 AM by runnersdialzero
»
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runnersdialzero
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #60 on:
October 23, 2013, 11:39:30 AM »
Also, a friend once told me that most of the original mono 45 mixes are different than the mono album mixes, even if not noted as being "single mixes" or whatever. Please tell me this is not true.
Also, Andrew, your site lists that there is a 2102 remaster of Surfer Girl on the mono/stereo page. r u from the future :O
«
Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 12:38:04 PM by runnersdialzero
»
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Tell me it's okay.
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Andrew G. Doe
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #61 on:
October 23, 2013, 04:09:14 PM »
Rumbled. I am in fact my own great-great-grandson.
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Freddie French-Pounce
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #62 on:
October 23, 2013, 04:18:25 PM »
Quote from: runnersdialzero on October 23, 2013, 11:39:30 AM
Also, a friend once told me that most of the original mono 45 mixes are different than the mono album mixes, even if not noted as being "single mixes" or whatever. Please tell me this is not true.
E.G. 45 mix of CG has louder Brian. [I read once. Don't have my 45s on me to check]
«
Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 04:21:10 PM by Freddie French-Pounce
»
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Check out the Mono/Stereo Mix Breakdown podcast Mixology here:
https://mixology.podbean.com/
drbeachboy
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #63 on:
October 23, 2013, 05:07:36 PM »
Quote from: Freddie French-Pounce on October 23, 2013, 04:18:25 PM
Quote from: runnersdialzero on October 23, 2013, 11:39:30 AM
Also, a friend once told me that most of the original mono 45 mixes are different than the mono album mixes, even if not noted as being "single mixes" or whatever. Please tell me this is not true.
E.G. 45 mix of CG has louder Brian. [I read once. Don't have my 45s on me to check]
The 45 version is on Greatest Hits Volume 1. Not only is Brian louder, but the drums, horns and background vocals are mixed differently than the LP mix.
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The Brianista Prayer
Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
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Custom Machine
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #64 on:
October 23, 2013, 05:12:03 PM »
Quote from: A. Grayham Doe on October 19, 2013, 02:32:09 PM
It's not complete (doesn't include
MiC
), and needs re-writing badly, but this gives you a broad overview:
Bellagio 10452 - mono/stereo
While the mono/stereo section is due for an updating, thanks again, AGD, for all the invaluable info contained in your Bellagio site. With all the new mixes being done it's getting difficult to keep track of it all.
I would like to point out that the description you give to Capitol's Electronic Rechaneling, stating the sound "was augmented by having different frequencies emphasised on each channel, usually bass on one side, treble on the other" also applies to all of Capitol's Duphonic releases as well, (although it's really more of bass and higher treble in one channel and midrange and lower treble in the other). And I'm wondering if the electronic rechanneling Capitol did on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey is actually the same process as Duophonic, but they simply stopped using the term Duophonic on those newer releases. As stated on the Mono/Stereo section of Bellagio, both of those albums when released were labeled Stereo, although they clearly are electronically rechanneled.
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drbeachboy
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #65 on:
October 23, 2013, 05:18:48 PM »
Quote from: Custom Machine on October 23, 2013, 05:12:03 PM
Quote from: A. Grayham Doe on October 19, 2013, 02:32:09 PM
It's not complete (doesn't include
MiC
), and needs re-writing badly, but this gives you a broad overview:
Bellagio 10452 - mono/stereo
While the mono/stereo section is due for an updating, thanks again, AGD, for all the invaluable info contained in your Bellagio site. With all the new mixes being done it's getting difficult to keep track of it all.
I would like to point out that the description you give to Capitol's Electronic Rechaneling, stating the sound "was augmented by having different frequencies emphasised on each channel, usually bass on one side, treble on the other" also applies to all of Capitol's Duphonic releases as well, (although it's really more of bass and higher treble in one channel and midrange and lower treble in the other). And I'm wondering if the electronic rechanneling Capitol did on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey is actually the same process as Duophonic, but they simply stopped using the term Duophonic on those newer releases. As stated on the Mono/Stereo section of Bellagio, both of those albums when released were labeled Stereo, although they clearly are electronically rechanneled.
They're labeled as Stereo on the Brother/Reprise releases, as well.
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The Brianista Prayer
Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen. ---hypehat
Custom Machine
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Posts: 1294
Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #66 on:
October 23, 2013, 05:31:11 PM »
Quote from: Bicyclerider on October 23, 2013, 08:36:55 AM
Quote from: DonnyL on October 21, 2013, 11:33:04 PM
... and I believe (at least initally), proper 3-track recording was monitored with three speakers. This makes sense, as the sound would be more true. Not sure how it was set up for Beach Boys sessions. I've mentioned this before, but I really can't stress enough that the 'mix' as a separate thing is really a modern concept. They were just finishing the record, which was envisioned in mono. Stereo was a distraction at best, which is why it was phased out in the Beach Boys' world by late '64. For all we know, they just made the mono mix and had an assistant engineer or tape op route it to stereo on a second deck, or someone came in later to do it. I doubt Brian was present for any of the stereo mixes. Stereo was not given serious consideration in any decision-making ... the end result is that Brian accepted Duophonic, as the only use he had for stereo was as a gimmick for Capitol to charge $1 more per LP.
i find it strange though that while Brian stopped having his songs mixed into stereo, Capitol was insisting the Beatles deliver stereo masters of songs not mixed into stereo for the UK yet, as they wanted/needed stereo album releases with single cuts on them. Even to the point in 66 of getting unreleased songs destined for Revolver to receive early stereo mixes now unavailable anywhere else. If Capitol could make the Beatles do specific stereo mixes for the American market, they couldn't get Brian to let Chuck make stereo mixes of Today and Summer Days and Pet Sounds? As you say, the big incentive was to be able to charge more the stereo album. They should have given buyers a discount on the dreaded duophonic mixes!
BTW supposedly some stereo mixes were made by Chuck for Today, but then the stereo idea was abandoned and the mixes were either wiped or lost.
Good question. Brian, like Spector, preferred mono, so did he absolutely insist on a mono master only for Today through Smiley Smile? And did Capitol protest, or just think, fine, we'll save money on not doing a stereo mix and just rechannel it into fake Duophonic stereo and still charge a dollar extra. Since record companies stopped pressing mono albums in 1968, I'd assume that in 1965-67 that most of the public was paying a buck extra and listening to an inferior Duophonic style pressing. I know that's what I was doing, 'cause as far as I was concerned, I had a stereo, so I wanted a stereo effect, even though a dollar was a good chunk of money to me at that time. (And over six dollars today adjusted for inflation.)
So how did Friends come to be the first BB album in three years to released in true stereo? Did Capitol tell Brian to deliver the next album in stereo because there will be no more mono releases (at least in the US)? Or was Stephen Desper responsible, advising Brian that he could deliver a great stereo mix with a realistic soundstage?
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Andrew G. Doe
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Re: Beach Boys Stereo Remixes
«
Reply #67 on:
October 23, 2013, 10:51:27 PM »
Quote from: Custom Machine on October 23, 2013, 05:31:11 PM
Brian, like Spector, preferred mono, so did he absolutely insist on a mono master only for Today through Smiley Smile? And did Capitol protest, or just think, fine, we'll save money on not doing a stereo mix and just rechannel it into fake Duophonic stereo and still charge a dollar extra.
Not only did he insist, a mono master was all he handed in (which is a strong indication of his clout within Capitol at the time), thus essentially forcing the company down the DuoPhonic route.
And yes - that page of 10452 is a mess. Got a week off coming up soon, so a day devoted to a complete re-write seems a fine idea. Maybe not all the various remixes, though... my poor addled brain isn't up to that. Should really be a small Quad/matrix section, too.
«
Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 02:56:08 AM by A. Grayham Doe
»
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