Tony Asher after Pet Sounds

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I may say something that is sacreligious here, but is only my opinion. Tony's lyrics are solid, but no better then what Mike was capable of doing. Songs like Warmth of the Sun, Kiss Me Baby, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up and Good Vibrations were every bit as good as anything on Pet Sounds lyrically. Either Mike was unwilling to go that route for an intire album after Today was a dissapointment, or Brian just didn't want to work with him anymore.

Now Van Dyke is a different story. His poetry blew them all away. Having said that, Tony Asher's lyrics were good. But no better then what they had done before.

[Autotune]

I agree that Asher's and Love's crafts were not that different. Asher's lyirics for PS sound Mike-Lovish to these ears.

Regarding Van Dyke: no one will argue his uniqueness, his originality, his mastering of pun and rhyme, even his musical abilities... also, the fact that he was the man of the hour for Brian during a very special period. But I will exert my right not to be very enthusiastic about his lyrics, and find them to be -at times, at least- a patchwork of over-pretentiousness on Brian's music. Perhaps that very lyrical pretentiousness triggered some of Brian's better tunes, but cryptic does not equal good or effective. And sometimes it seems like Van Dyke's lyrics are to BB fans their share of poetry, who like to feel importat because they dig those cryptic lyrics. VDP's a quirky pop lyricist, not a great poet.


By the way, the great http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/vaults.html lists a number of other "recent" Wilson - Ahser compositions: Case For A Song, No Sad Story, Right Before Your Eyes, Rock And Roll Express.

[Bicyclerider]

I agree that Asher's and Love's crafts were not that different. Asher's lyirics for PS sound Mike-Lovish to these ears.

Regarding Van Dyke: no one will argue his uniqueness, his originality, his mastering of pun and rhyme, even his musical abilities... also, the fact that he was the man of the hour for Brian during a very special period. But I will exert my right not to be very enthusiastic about his lyrics, and find them to be -at times, at least- a patchwork of over-pretentiousness on Brian's music. Perhaps that very lyrical pretentiousness triggered some of Brian's better tunes, but cryptic does not equal good or effective. And sometimes it seems like Van Dyke's lyrics are to BB fans their share of poetry, who like to feel importat because they dig those cryptic lyrics. VDP's a quirky pop lyricist, not a great poet.

I disagree that Asher's lyrics are Mike Love-ish, although I will of course concede that Mike has written lyrics of equal quality to Asher's - and more of them.  But Mike would never have written lyrics like I Just Wasn't Made for These Times (even Asher had a hard time with that lyric, he didn't relate to them at all), That's Not Me, God Only Knows, and Caroline No.  Mike would have said all of them were too melancholy and "downers" (like he said with 'Til I Die later) and would have tried to put some optimism in them, which was not where Brian's head was at.  The cool thing about Asher is that, unlike Mike, he was basically a stranger and Brian was able to open up to him about his obsessions/fantasies/fears without worrying about them being shoved back into his face at a later date, or being shared with the rest of the group.  Asher was able to use their conversations to really put Brian's state of mind and feelings into the songs, in a way few other Brian collaborators have.  The lyrics really capture Brian's emotional state and mood at a certain point in time.

As for Van Dyke, I can understand how many (including Mike Love) would not care for his lyrics, but I feel the music drove the lyrcs rather than the other way around.  Brian was into spirituality, drugs, mind games and jumping around from one enthusiastic hobby to the next (telescopes, health food, water sounds, hamburgers, pool, swimming) with a rapidity akin to today's ADHD.  His music, short bits jumping from one to the next, often discordant, reflects that, and the lyrics do too.  Van was definitely under the influence of Dylan as well as other pschotropic drugs, but could still write a fairly straightforward lyric like Wind Chimes and a mostly understandable one like Wonderful.  Brian always talks about the influence of Rubber Soul, but I have to wonder about the influence of Revolver (August 66) on Brian's musical direction - the fact that Lennon and McCartney were becoming more oblique with their lyrics like Tomorrow Never Knows, And Your Bird Can Sing, She Said She Said, and Eleanor Rigby may have spurred Brian's competitive drive  to make his lyrics more "important" and obscure.

[Sheriff John Stone]

(talking to myself) I wanna make sure that I express this properly....

I like Van Dyke Parks' SMiLE lyrics, I appreciate them, and I'm glad he collaborated with Brian on SMiLE. Brian deserved to be able to create "art" instead of catchy pop songs (which are also "art" BTW, but you know what I mean).

That being said, I know I would've been like Mike Love and NOT appreciated them in 1966. And, I will give the primary example: "Surf's Up". Oh, I love the song; the melody, arrangement, and Brian's vocal (regardless of what HE says) are spectacular. But, that being said, the song itself does not "touch" me like some of Brian's other classics - i.e. "Caroline, No", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "Don't Worry, Baby", or even "All Summer Long". Not to sound like a simpleton or a graduate of the Mike Love school of lyric writing, but I can't relate to much of "Surf's Up" - lyrically. Oh, I know what the words mean, I've read the translation! But, there are times when I'm listening to the track, sometimes just the instrumental track, and think, "I wish this was a love song or something, at least a subject that would touch me MORE". I sometimes feel that Brian wasted such a great vocal (I know that sounds extreme), but "columnated ruins domino" just doesn't get to me the way - "What matters to me is how I can be to just one girl", or even "Late at night I think about the love of this whole world". Do I sound like Mike Love?

Anyway, I'm glad we have SMiLE, and "Surf's Up", and Van Dyke's lyrics, but I don't put a blanket on all of the words as being effective - to me anyway....

[Bicyclerider]

(talking to myself) I wanna make sure that I express this properly....

I like Van Dyke Parks' SMiLE lyrics, I appreciate them, and I'm glad he collaborated with Brian on SMiLE. Brian deserved to be able to create "art" instead of catchy pop songs (which are also "art" BTW, but you know what I mean).

Surf's Up music conveys feeling and emotion - the lyrics on the whole do not, they are cerebral and about concepts rather than people and their feelings ("I" only appears twice in the song - it, like many of the songs, are "third person" songs).  Ditto Worms, Cabinessence, et al.  So I get what you're saying.  The discordance at times between the music and the lyrics probably was one of the reasons Brian finally abandoned the project (the Goodbye Surfing, Hello God article where he talks about forgetting  the lyrics, the music is the message of what he was trying to convey).  But I still feel the lyrics do fit with the music of Worms and Cabinessence and Wind Chimes and Wonderful and Heroes, where the puns and jumps and turns of the lyrics reflect the jumps and juxtapositions and surprises of the music.

[TdHabib]

I have to disagree at least personally--"Surf's Up" solo at the sandbox I have more of an emotional connection to than 95% of Brian's other songs. I know that this may be the incorrect translation but I always associate it both with Old England, the maestro conducting an orchestra OR the changing times, Vietnam war...whatever fits my mood. It's partly the way Brian sings them--"Columnated Ruins Domino" is just three words but could knock a grown man to the floor sung in Brian's register. Yes, they are diffuse and abtsract, but they "move" me at least. But hey I'm weird, I literally shed a tear the first time I heard "A Day in the Life of a Tree" because I was sure it was a meatphor for Brian's life.

[mikeyj]

Songs like Warmth of the Sun, Kiss Me Baby, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up and Good Vibrations were every bit as good as anything on Pet Sounds lyrically.

Mike didn't write Don't Worry, Baby. That was Roger Christian.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Songs like Warmth of the Sun, Kiss Me Baby, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up and Good Vibrations were every bit as good as anything on Pet Sounds lyrically.

Mike didn't write Don't Worry, Baby. That was Roger Christian.

My mistake

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I didn't mean that Van Dyke's lyrics were better, just different enough from Mike. I guess Tony Asher was willing to write what Brian was feeling and am sure he was just happy to be there. Mike would want to have his own imput and perspective. But I believe Mike and Brian were capable of writing all the lyrics on Pet Sounds. But not the lyrics of Smile except for Wind Chimes, Vegatables and a few others.

[MBE]

I think the reason Tony and Brian didn't write together again for 30 years is that Tony looked down on him as a person. Read what he said to Nick Kent and Steven Gaines. Maybe he's changed his tune since then (it seems that way) but he didn't seem to like Brian as a person."A genius musician but an amateur human being" was his quote.

On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode.

Smile Mike could have never done. I always thought Van Dyke's lyrics were witty and interesting. They don't personally touch me, but they are properly ornamental. In other words they sound good the way they are performed.

To sum it up..because Smile is so beautifully constructed it does moves me, but not the words themselves.

[hypehat]

i think Cabin Essence, apart from maybe the cornfield bit, is a very emotionally resonant song... more so than almost anything on Smile, except Wind Chimes and Sunny Down Snuff, at least for me.

it's all a question of how you want to say it -  However good Todays lyrics are (and they're great), Pet Sounds is just very sophisticated in comparison. I mean, he doesn't say 'baby' or just 'I love you', they're more elaborate statements. And same with Van Dyke. You could write 'Kiss Me Baby' or 'nestle in a kiss below there' and it's the same thing, but one is definitely more interesting. And as for Surfs Up... well that can slay me. It's down to Brian's delivery, i know, but he's singing Van's words all the same, and the two are so completely linked.... Seriously, what else would you put in place of 'Columnated Ruins Domino'? It fits so totally.  Smile just wouldn't be the same if it was Brian singing ' i love you' a bunch of times, would it?

It might have been released, for one thing 

[Autotune]

it's all a question of how you want to say it -  However good Todays lyrics are (and they're great), Pet Sounds is just very sophisticated in comparison. I mean, he doesn't say 'baby' or just 'I love you', they're more elaborate statements.

Uhm..

"it starts with just a little glance now
right away you're thinkin' 'bout romance now"

see, that Mike-Lovish to me, and so are most if not all of the lyrics... As capable as Asher was, I think that it was simply Brian wanting to collaborate with a paid employee who would not argue him, would put up with him, and would write exactly what he wanted.

[Bicyclerider]

I think the reason Tony and Brian didn't write together again for 30 years is that Tony looked down on him as a person. Read what he said to Nick Kent and Steven Gaines. Maybe he's changed his tune since then (it seems that way) but he didn't seem to like Brian as a person."A genius musician but an amateur human being" was his quote.

Tony Asher back in 1966 was a fairly conservative, uptight, "normal" guy.  Brian's sordid confessions of feeling out of place and lonely, not relating to people, being attracted to his wife's youngest sister, and the other sister, he could not relate to at all.  Remember, this is many decades before tabloid journalism, Maury and Springer, this to him was abnormal and immature.  Nowadays Brian's confessions would be boring next to what we are exposed to on TV every day, but back then Tony couldn't relate to them at all.  The fact that they found their way into the lyrics, expressed beautifully, is a testament to Tony's skill with words and his ability to put aside his own preconceptions and biases and try to funnel Brian's moods and feelings, as foreign as they seemed to him.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I always thought one of the main reasons Brian used Asher instead of Mike Love was because of availability. Wasn't it part of Brian's "plan" when he left the road that he would stay home and record while the guys were touring. Well, I know the guys were extremely busy during that time, so, maybe just logistically, Mike wasn't available when Brian needed to record. With Capitol's demand for records at that time, it's quite possible that Brian couldn't wait. I'm sure Mike Love would have a different opinion on that....

[MBE]

I think the reason Tony and Brian didn't write together again for 30 years is that Tony looked down on him as a person. Read what he said to Nick Kent and Steven Gaines. Maybe he's changed his tune since then (it seems that way) but he didn't seem to like Brian as a person."A genius musician but an amateur human being" was his quote.

Tony Asher back in 1966 was a fairly conservative, uptight, "normal" guy.  Brian's sordid confessions of feeling out of place and lonely, not relating to people, being attracted to his wife's youngest sister, and the other sister, he could not relate to at all.  Remember, this is many decades before tabloid journalism, Maury and Springer, this to him was abnormal and immature.  Nowadays Brian's confessions would be boring next to what we are exposed to on TV every day, but back then Tony couldn't relate to them at all.  The fact that they found their way into the lyrics, expressed beautifully, is a testament to Tony's skill with words and his ability to put aside his own preconceptions and biases and try to funnel Brian's moods and feelings, as foreign as they seemed to him.

Well put. I want to add that the only thing Tony wasn't conservative about was drugs. Marilyn didn't like him around.  It is pretty amazing that Asher was able to articulate what to him were foreign concepts.

[Amy B.]

I think Tony was shocked at Brian's naivete and what he perceived to be his lack of sophistication.  And from a class perspective, I think Tony was farther up the ladder, whereas Brian had more of a blue collar sensibility. I remember Tony criticizing Brian's "lack of taste" in one interview, whether it was the decor of the house, Brian's clothes, or whatever. He didn't buy into the "Brian-as-intellectual" thing at all, either. But since he was an ad guy, he was used to writing made-to-order material, right? And he was Brian's hired gun, so he conveyed Brian's feelings in the lyrics. "Sometimes I feel very sad." That's so simple, so Brian.

I'm sure Tony respected Brian's musical ability, but he never seemed as in awe of it as Van Dyke. Tony said Brian would sometimes change a note or two for a lyric (nothing wrong there-- George Gershwin did it for Ira), whereas Van Dyke talked about how the lyrics should always serve the music. Then again, Tony's personality seems more grounded than Van Dyke's. VDP has a sense of magic about him. I guess Marilyn didn't like either one, and neither did Mike.

[the captain]

Van Dyke's "awe," to be fair, probably ought not be taken at face value. I LOVE the man's music and he's very kind (I mean, what borderline legend responds to emails from every Tom, Dick and Harry?), but he makes humility come off as pompousness.

[Chris Brown]

I always thought one of the main reasons Brian used Asher instead of Mike Love was because of availability. Wasn't it part of Brian's "plan" when he left the road that he would stay home and record while the guys were touring. Well, I know the guys were extremely busy during that time, so, maybe just logistically, Mike wasn't available when Brian needed to record. With Capitol's demand for records at that time, it's quite possible that Brian couldn't wait. I'm sure Mike Love would have a different opinion on that....

I don't know if I buy the availability thing...Brian managed to collaberate with Mike quite a bit after he left the road.  From every account I've read, Brian just wanted something different and went with his gut.  He was always that way with his collaberators. 

As far as Mike's capability, I don't doubt at all that he was capable of writing the majority of the lyrics on Pet Sounds.  As others have said, however, I don't think that he would have been comfortable writing an album full of "downers" that he couldn't relate to.  For every "Warmth of the Sun" and "Kiss Me Baby," there are just as many (if not more) "fun in the sun" type songs.  Mike would have challenged Brian on the direction of the songs (like on Smile), and Brian didn't want confrontation.  He wanted somebody to listen to his thoughts and translate them into lyrics.  A stranger like Tony was much better suited for that role than Mike, I think.

[juggler]

On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode.

Originally, Mike Love was credited as a writer on only two tracks on 'The Beach Boys Today!' (i.e., 'Please Let Me Wonder' and the it-barely-counts 'Bull Session with Big Daddy').   The fact that Mike Love now gets credits on other 'Today' tracks is the result of a legal settlement back in the mid-1990s.  Everyone pretty much concedes that Murry screwed Mike out of SOME writing credits (i.e., 'California Girls' being the most egregious example).  However, it's important to keep in mind that as a result of the legal settlement, Mike got his name tacked onto a very large number of songs -- and on some of those, such as 'Wouldn't It Be Nice,' his contributions were reportedly minimal.

[Sheriff John Stone]

That took some guts for Brian to go with Tony Asher. After the trio of All Summer Long, Today, and Summer Days (And Summer Nights) with Mike Love, I'll bet there were a few people who thought, "Tony who - Brian, are you nuts?" No offense intended....

[MBE]

On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode.

Originally, Mike Love was credited as a writer on only two tracks on 'The Beach Boys Today!' (i.e., 'Please Let Me Wonder' and the it-barely-counts 'Bull Session with Big Daddy').   The fact that Mike Love now gets credits on other 'Today' tracks is the result of a legal settlement back in the mid-1990s.  Everyone pretty much concedes that Murry screwed Mike out of SOME writing credits (i.e., 'California Girls' being the most egregious example).  However, it's important to keep in mind that as a result of the legal settlement, Mike got his name tacked onto a very large number of songs -- and on some of those, such as 'Wouldn't It Be Nice,' his contributions were reportedly minimal.

That's a whole different debate and I am sure you can search for it on here as we have had a few good threads but let me interject my view briefly. I argue strongly (as Brian has given Mike credit completely) that Mike Love did write those lyrics. Brian wasn't overtly articulate as a lyric writer (effective at times but simple or conversational) and no way could he have written She Knows Me Too Well, or In The Back Of My Mind alone. Mike's other lawsuits are crap but he deserved those song credits. Check out many old interviews (pre lawsuit) where Brian, Dennis, etc. credit Mike as the Beach Boys main lyric writer. Even Jardine coincides that Mike wrote those songs, and Brian not once has contested that Love wrote these with him. I interviewed  two dozen people for my own Beach Boys project including Brian, and almost all (even some who don't care for him) have said Mike Love wrote most of the lyrics through 1965.

[BJL]

On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode.

Originally, Mike Love was credited as a writer on only two tracks on 'The Beach Boys Today!' (i.e., 'Please Let Me Wonder' and the it-barely-counts 'Bull Session with Big Daddy').   The fact that Mike Love now gets credits on other 'Today' tracks is the result of a legal settlement back in the mid-1990s.  Everyone pretty much concedes that Murry screwed Mike out of SOME writing credits (i.e., 'California Girls' being the most egregious example).  However, it's important to keep in mind that as a result of the legal settlement, Mike got his name tacked onto a very large number of songs -- and on some of those, such as 'Wouldn't It Be Nice,' his contributions were reportedly minimal.

That's a whole different debate and I am sure you can search for it on here as we have had a few good threads but let me interject my view briefly. I argue strongly (as Brian has given Mike credit completely) that Mike Love did write those lyrics. Brian wasn't overtly articulate as a lyric writer (effective at times but simple or conversational) and no way could he have written She Knows Me Too Well, or In The Back Of My Mind alone. Mike's other lawsuits are crap but he deserved those song credits. Check out many old interviews (pre lawsuit) where Brian, Dennis, etc. credit Mike as the Beach Boys main lyric writer. Even Jardine coincides that Mike wrote those songs, and Brian not once has contested that Love wrote these with him. I interviewed  two dozen people for my own Beach Boys project including Brian, and almost all (even some who don't care for him) have said Mike Love wrote most of the lyrics through 1965.

"There's "Good To My Baby." Brian Wilson is listed as writing it completely, guess who wrote the words? Doctor Love, that's who. "When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)." I participated in that and didn't get a stitch of recognition. "Help Me Rhonda," I wrote, "Since you put me down I've been out doing in my head." That's my fucking line, thank you very much. Things like "Dance Dance Dance," I asked Carl if he wrote any lyrics for the song and he said no. He just came up with the guitar line." 

And on please Let Me Wonder "I remember wondering about the title. Not relating to the title so great but writing the verses."

So that's what we have on that, so far as I know, but what I get from that interview is that if Mike wrote all of a song, he said so, but that a lot of those claims were for a couple of lines, or a lyrical collaboration.

I think that if side 2 of Today proves anything, its that Brian could have written the words to pet sounds just about by himself.  I just can't imagine Mike Love coming up with In the Back of My Mind or She Knows me Too Well--they just dont feel like Mike Love Lyrics to me.  And I think that Brian has proven that, from time to time at least, he could put words together and convey what he was thinking pretty well.  Heck, I think Til I Die is one of the most beautiful and effective lyrics ever written by anybody.

[juggler]

I don't buy this idea that Brian couldn't write lyrics.  Only Brian is credited on "This Whole World," and I happen to think that its lyrics are no worse than a lot of the stuff from the mid-'60s that he was supposedly incapable of writing alone.

FWIW...   Here's Tony Asher's take on WIBN....

      Mike recently sued Brian for writing credit to around 30 songs among which was "Wouldn't It Be Nice". What role did Mike have in writing that song?

None, whatsoever. As most people know, the Beach Boys were on tour during the writing of that song. During the trial, Mike's attorney asked me how I could be so sure Mike hadn't influenced the writing of that song. "After all, " he speculated, "wasn't Mr. Wilson out of your sight from time to time? Didn't he go to the bathroom, or leave the room periodically for one reason or another? And couldn't he have been taking a phone call from Mr. Love during one of those absences?" These guys get paid big bucks for this kind of absurdity. At any rate, I answered that, while it was true Mr. Love could have called Mr. Wilson on one of those occasions, it was doubtful it had any influence, since "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was one of the few songs I wrote the entire lyric to by myself at home. "Mr. Love did not then," I explained, "and I pray does not now, have my home phone number."

So where does Mike's claim come from? Is he just making this stuff up out of some kind of jealousy or rage toward Brian or does he really believe he wrote some of the lyrics to that song?

I think he would say that it is based upon things that were added at sessions that could be characterized, I suppose, in the loosest sense of the word, as lyrics. I'm talking about background vocals like the typical "doo-wha's" and "dum-diddies" that occur in many songs, not only from the Beach Boys. Lyrics of that type have always been considered part of the "arrangement" of songs and those supplying them, such as vocal arrangers, have never been given part of the songwriting royalties for such contributions, although I suppose an argument could be made that they should. Actually, I believe that a far stronger argument can be made for giving arrangers royalties so at least part of their compensation would be based upon the success of a record since their arrangement, like the producer's production, is -- in my opinion -- often a real factor in the commercial-ness of the record. But I wouldn't favor giving everyone who ever wrote a "ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong" part of the songwriting credits.

http://surfermoon.com/interviews/asher.html

[BJL]

I've always wondered if some insight into who wrote what could be gleamed from the rewrite of Please Let Me Wonder, (incidentally my favorite song in the universe!)  Does anybody know why exactly Brian changed the lyrics?  Since he sung it himself the second time, I always sort of assumed Mike wrote the first set, and Brian wrote the second, but of course that's pretty thin evidence.   

Just for fun, the first version:

Now here we are together
this would have been worth waiting forever
I always knew i’d feel this way
And please forgive my shaking
can’t you tell my heart is breaking
I’m so afraid of what you’ll say

I know this may be the wrong time
Its just I’ve loved you such a long time
and just loving you won’t make you stay
and somehow the truth doesn’t matter
when I know my dreams could be shattered
so please don’t say what you wanna say. 

and the second:

Now here we are together
This would've been worth waiting forever
I always knew it'd feel this way
And please forgive my shaking
Can't you tell my heart is breaking?
Can't make myself say what I planned to say

I built all my goals around you
That some day my love would surround you
You'll never know what we've been through
For so long I thought about it
And now I just can't live without it
This beautiful image I have of you

The first version really makes the song kind of more blunt: "so please don't say what you want to say" is a subtext of the second version, I feel.  On the other hand, the line "you'll never know what we've been through" makes absolutely no sense!  How could she not know something that they've both been through?

[MBE]

I never said Brian couldn't write lyrics, I said Brian's lyrics were different in tone. Busy Doin Nothin' for instance is pure Brian.

These are really good threads

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,3924.0.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5833.0.html