New vs. Old elements of Smile?

[runnersdialzero]

I realize this was probably talked about in great detail in '04, but humor a n00b, here.

Obviously a lot of this stuff is going to be speculation and some of the things I'm going to ask are things that no one around here could possibly know - but I figure there may be a chance of it anyway.

I'm wondering what elements of BWPS were newly written? Here is a list I had going, correct me if I'm wrong and feel free to add to it...

"Heroes and Villains" - The very end of this is not on any older recordings and is probably new and, to my ears, seems to be a reference to the "Canvas the town" melody in "Surf's Up".

"Barnyard" - The lyrics are old, but seem slightly incorrect - Brian says, "Out in the barnyard, the cook is chopping lumber", while it seems that it was originally, "Out in the farmyard."

"Cabinessence" - seemingly has a new ending.

"Song for Children" - I'm not sure here. I think the lyrics are new, but are the melodies? Does anyone even know for sure? I know it's said that this song got some vocal work back on the original recordings, but no one's heard it.

"Child is the Father of the Man" - New lyrics/melodies during the verse? Also, the ending seems to be newly written.

"Surf's Up" - I'm guessing the 2nd section probably isn't exactly what it was supposed to be way back when?

"I'm in Great Shape" - The beginning seems to be new, with a reprisal of the H&V "Cantina" section.

"On a Holiday" - from everything I can gather, new lyrics.

"Wind Chimes" - seemingly a new section near the end?

"In Blue Hawaii" - Seems to be a lot of new elements here. Is there any word on if any of the "Is it hot as hell in here?" or "Down in blue Hawaii" stuff was intended for the original, either lyrically or melodically?

"Good Vibrations" - was Mike's original opening line kept because the original opening line is lost or for familiarity's sake? You can hear a line being sung faintly in the early take of the song, and while it's impossible to make out, it is not the same as Mike's opening line.

[Wrightfan]

I think you're mostly right except for two things:

Song for Children: Andrew Doe has mentioned that a vocal session happened for this back when it was Look/I Ran in 1966. Also I think the clarinet was taken from the old sessions as there's a quote that Darian heard it bleed through on the take of Look/I Ran he had.

Wind Chimes: The end part does exist in 66 form but there's no vocals or drums.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

There were vocals for Look/I Ran recorded  Oct 13 of 1966, with 6 Beach Boys.

There is a circulating session of I'm In Great Shape from the original SMiLE. Actually, not a session so much as just a couple of tries recording the tune. It features Van Dyke on piano, and the end features the feedback/echo thing that's at the end of the cantina H&V, just before the 'western' section kicks in.

[Wrightfan]

Speaking of Old and New SMiLE elements. Has anyone ever noticed that some of the 1966 SMiLE verison of Workshop is in in the 2004 BWPS version?

[Aegir]

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of those those "new ending" things are link tracks assembled by Darian but using already existing melodies from the Smile sessions.

[the captain]

You are not mistaken. There is no question Darian's linking segments used melodies from existing Smile music: I think that much is obvious. They are mostly direct quotes of passages of the songs.

[runnersdialzero]

There were vocals for Look/I Ran recorded  Oct 13 of 1966, with 6 Beach Boys.

There is a circulating session of I'm In Great Shape from the original SMiLE. Actually, not a session so much as just a couple of tries recording the tune. It features Van Dyke on piano, and the end features the feedback/echo thing that's at the end of the cantina H&V, just before the 'western' section kicks in.

The intro to "Great Shape" as featured on BWPS was recorded? I know that the main section of the song when the vocals come in was recorded a few times, but did any ever feature the beginning section that references the Cantina section of H&V?

There were vocals for Look/I Ran recorded  Oct 13 of 1966, with 6 Beach Boys.

But what I was wondering was: Do we know either way if the vocal melodies as featured on BWPS were the same as the ones done in 66? I really doubt anyone would know this as there's no circulating recording, but I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned in any interviews with Brian/Darian.

[Aegir]

You are not mistaken. There is no question Darian's linking segments used melodies from existing Smile music: I think that much is obvious. They are mostly direct quotes of passages of the songs.

Oh, well, I knew that part was right, but I wasn't 100% sure if they were newly assembled by Darian or whatever.

[runnersdialzero]

Wind Chimes: The end part does exist in 66 form but there's no vocals or drums.

I mean how the "BAH BAH BAH" part (for lack of a better phrase) that deviates from the main "BAH BAH BAH" section slightly at the very end of the BWPS version, it was done back in 66, too? The very last measure.

[the captain]

You are not mistaken. There is no question Darian's linking segments used melodies from existing Smile music: I think that much is obvious. They are mostly direct quotes of passages of the songs.

Oh, well, I knew that part was right, but I wasn't 100% sure if they were newly assembled by Darian or whatever.

Ah. Seemed sort of obvious to be speculating about! But yeah, it's my understanding that Darian is the one who did those parts.

[Amanda Hart]

"Cabinessence" - seemingly has a new ending.

"In Blue Hawaii" - Seems to be a lot of new elements here. Is there any word on if any of the "Is it hot as hell in here?" or "Down in blue Hawaii" stuff was intended for the original, either lyrically or melodically?

The old ending on Cabinessence is one of the best pieces of rock music ever recorded.  I'm probably the opposite of most on this board because I heard BWPS before I heard anything else from it (a side from Good Vibrations) and when I first heard that fuzz guitar ending I was totally blown away.  If the only bit of music I could ever listen to in my  life would be those last 45 or so seconds I would be pretty satisfied.

The lyrics you mention for In Blue Hawaii were new for 2004. Van Dyke wrote them when he came on for a teeny little bit of help for a teeny little bit of time.

[Roger Ryan]

There were vocals for Look/I Ran recorded  Oct 13 of 1966, with 6 Beach Boys.

There is a circulating session of I'm In Great Shape from the original SMiLE. Actually, not a session so much as just a couple of tries recording the tune. It features Van Dyke on piano, and the end features the feedback/echo thing that's at the end of the cantina H&V, just before the 'western' section kicks in.

The intro to "Great Shape" as featured on BWPS was recorded? I know that the main section of the song when the vocals come in was recorded a few times, but did any ever feature the beginning section that references the Cantina section of H&V?

There were vocals for Look/I Ran recorded  Oct 13 of 1966, with 6 Beach Boys.

But what I was wondering was: Do we know either way if the vocal melodies as featured on BWPS were the same as the ones done in 66? I really doubt anyone would know this as there's no circulating recording, but I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned in any interviews with Brian/Darian.

The "new" intro to "I'm In Great Shape" is indeed the "Cantina" section music rearranged. I don't believe this was recorded in '66 in connection with IIGS, but since IIGS was possibly part of "Heroes & Villains" at one point (and probably would have been used as a bridge prior to the "Cantina" section taking its place), the two themes were already linked spiritually.

Musically, the ending of the new "Wind Chimes" sounds identical to the early take from '66, but the additional vocals were newly added.

I assumed the vocal melodies to "Song For Children" came from the clarinet line heard on the '66 backing track and by reworking the "Child is Father of the Man" melody (for the "Child is Father of the Son" portion).

Basically, all of the "new" vocal melodies are based on some musical element found in the original recordings (the "hot as hell in here" line seems to be modeled on the main "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" motif). Brian himself reportedly remembered the verse melody to "Roll Plymouth Rock".

[Dr. Tim]

The salon orchestra waltz version of the "Cantina" music which opens I'm In Great Shape is a new addition in 2004.  Brian was very definite on this when I asked him during my "charity" phone call with him.  I even asked - you mean late 2003? And he said "no no - we added that in 2004". 

[runnersdialzero]

Another Smile question that probably doesn't deserve its own thread...

I've read that all songs on Smiley Smile had their origins in the Smile sessions with the exception of "Gettin' Hungry".

Where does "Little Pad" fit into the picture? Never been able to place it anywhere.

[Wrightfan]

Another Smile question that probably doesn't deserve its own thread...

I've read that all songs on Smiley Smile had their origins in the Smile sessions with the exception of "Gettin' Hungry".

Where does "Little Pad" fit into the picture? Never been able to place it anywhere.

Perhaps it was slated for that "humor record" that would've been a part of SMiLE early on.

[Amazing Larry]

The humming was the guitar line from the end of Tones Pt.3

[Chris Brown]

Another Smile question that probably doesn't deserve its own thread...

I've read that all songs on Smiley Smile had their origins in the Smile sessions with the exception of "Gettin' Hungry".

Where does "Little Pad" fit into the picture? Never been able to place it anywhere.

It doesn't really have any musical ties, but the Hawaii theme ties in with "Do You Like Worms" thematically.

[The Song Of The Grange]

I read (I think in Priore's more recent Smile book) that Darian said the "rock rock roll" chant in Holidays was original to the 1966 era.  I, however, doubt that this is true.  One would think that if vocals were planned for Holidays they would have been attempted at some point in the flurry of activity in the fall of 1966.  It has been my belief for awhile that Holidays was destined to be an outtake (like Trombone Dixie on Pet Sounds) and it wouldn't have made the cut back in 1966.  But, if you look at the Pet Sounds sessions for guidance, songs like Run James Run aka Pet Sounds were recorded early on in the sessions and actually made it to the record, which could have been the case with Holidays.  Still, with no vocal sessions even rumored for the song, I think all singing on the 2004 version dates from the 2004 era.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Another Smile question that probably doesn't deserve its own thread...

I've read that all songs on Smiley Smile had their origins in the Smile sessions with the exception of "Gettin' Hungry".

Where does "Little Pad" fit into the picture? Never been able to place it anywhere.

I think "Little Pad" was new to the Smiley Smile sessions.  It definitely uses the cut-up composition technique, but there is nothing to point to it dating back to the late Smile era, at least nothing in terms of recording sessions.  Saying that it is linked to Smile because of the Hawaii theme is a bit of a stretch for me, but it does seem to fit with the previous Smile concept, as does "Whistle In" (a reworking of the 2nd to last part of Worms).  It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine "Little Pad" right next to "Diamond Head" followed by "Love To Say Da Da"--they all feel cut from the same cloth, if not historically from the same concept.  I love "Little Pad", what an adventurous little track!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Another Smile question that probably doesn't deserve its own thread...

I've read that all songs on Smiley Smile had their origins in the Smile sessions with the exception of "Gettin' Hungry".

Where does "Little Pad" fit into the picture? Never been able to place it anywhere.

I think "Little Pad" was new to the Smiley Smile sessions.  It definitely uses the cut-up composition technique, but there is nothing to point to it dating back to the late Smile era, at least nothing in terms of recording sessions.  Saying that it is linked to Smile because of the Hawaii theme is a bit of a stretch for me, but it does seem to fit with the previous Smile concept, as does "Whistle In" (a reworking of the 2nd to last part of Worms).  It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine "Little Pad" right next to "Diamond Head" followed by "Love To Say Da Da"--they all feel cut from the same cloth, if not historically from the same concept.  I love "Little Pad", what an adventurous little track!

"Little Pad" untilises a section of the otherwise unreleased "Hawaiian Tune", also from the Smiley Smile sessions.

[hypehat]

I counted 10 'new' bits, off the top of my head. I think they've all been mentioned here....

I wish they didn't sing over the water chant, though - It's one of the few bits of BWPS i hated after hearing the vintage recordings

[Mahalo]

IMO it is not too far stretched to assume Brian had the melody w/ at least a rough outline of lyrics and/ or lrical ideas for ILTSDD which would have evolved into perhaps bits of the melody from Little Pad.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Another Smile question that probably doesn't deserve its own thread...

I've read that all songs on Smiley Smile had their origins in the Smile sessions with the exception of "Gettin' Hungry".

Where does "Little Pad" fit into the picture? Never been able to place it anywhere.

I think "Little Pad" was new to the Smiley Smile sessions.  It definitely uses the cut-up composition technique, but there is nothing to point to it dating back to the late Smile era, at least nothing in terms of recording sessions.  Saying that it is linked to Smile because of the Hawaii theme is a bit of a stretch for me, but it does seem to fit with the previous Smile concept, as does "Whistle In" (a reworking of the 2nd to last part of Worms).  It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine "Little Pad" right next to "Diamond Head" followed by "Love To Say Da Da"--they all feel cut from the same cloth, if not historically from the same concept.  I love "Little Pad", what an adventurous little track!

"Little Pad" untilises a section of the otherwise unreleased "Hawaiian Tune", also from the Smiley Smile sessions.

Do we have any idea what "Hawaiian Tune" was all about? Any recordings ever circulate?

[hypehat]

nope... supposedly, there's a BW original called 'Good News' from the same time period too.

[Chris Brown]

nope... supposedly, there's a BW original called 'Good News' from the same time period too.

Yep, and I'm actually quite surprised that these Smiley outtakes haven't surfaced after all these years.  I'd kill to hear just about anything they did during that period.