The Definitive Vocal Credits Thread...

[MBE]

Sweet Mountain from Spring has Brian singing in a gruff and sweet voice. You Need A Mess is I think Carl though. He Come Down might be Brian on that part. You can hear Brian doing the ooh and ahhs during the verse of YNAMOH and he also does the doobie doos on Marcella. Carl and Brian can be heard on Cuddle Up too.

Accprdong to Carl, Brian's only on "Marcella" on this album.

Well Mike said "Marcella" and "You Need A Mess Of Help" at the time in NME and since he only mentioned there 0two songs it doesn't seem like he was hyping Brian's involvement. YNAMOH I know he's there because I hear him very clear, but He Come Down and Cuddle Up I could be convinced otherwise. Still my ears tell me he's there. As I have said before, Brian spending five min to sing an incidental part may have slipped some of the participants minds.

[adamghost]

Mess of Help has never been one of my favorite tunes, but this discussion is interesting! No one has mentioned Al at all in the mix, I am assuming he sang on the track so perhaps his voice may account for some of the harmonies in question?

Sure.  I don't hear him, though.  Doesn't mean he's not there.  I assume that's him on the banjo, although it's more solid picking than any of the other stuff we know he did.

As for Brian on "Cuddle Up"...those b. vox could well date from the SURF'S UP sessions -- that track started life IIRC as a SURF'S UP track called "Old Movie" and he's on "Live Again" which dates from around the same period -- and thus not have been on Carl's mind.

I'd be surprised if Brian WASN'T on "He Come Down," but who knows.  I'd like to know if that's him on that low part.  It sounds exactly like him...in 1976.

[Andrew G. Doe]

As for Brian on "Cuddle Up"...those b. vox could well date from the SURF'S UP sessions -- that track started life IIRC as a SURF'S UP track called "Old Movie" and he's on "Live Again" which dates from around the same period -- and thus not have been on Carl's mind.

I stand to be corrected, but the "Old Movie" from Surf's Up that I've heard was actually "4th of July" (with Jack singing (?) a totally different lyric). Dennis seemed to use "Old Movie" as a catch-all title around this time, and recycled it when he recorded "Cuddle Up" for his 1971 solo project. I'm happy in my own mind that the vocal that sounds like Brian on "CU" is Toni. (cf her own version a few years later)

[John]

Sure.  I don't hear him, though.  Doesn't mean he's not there.  I assume that's him on the banjo, although it's more solid picking than any of the other stuff we know he did.

What did he do? I assume "California", but what else?

[signum]

Mess of Help has never been one of my favorite tunes, but this discussion is interesting! No one has mentioned Al at all in the mix, I am assuming he sang on the track so perhaps his voice may account for some of the harmonies in question?

Sure.  I don't hear him, though.  Doesn't mean he's not there.  I assume that's him on the banjo, although it's more solid picking than any of the other stuff we know he did.

As for Brian on "Cuddle Up"...those b. vox could well date from the SURF'S UP sessions -- that track started life IIRC as a SURF'S UP track called "Old Movie" and he's on "Live Again" which dates from around the same period -- and thus not have been on Carl's mind.

I'd be surprised if Brian WASN'T on "He Come Down," but who knows.  I'd like to know if that's him on that low part.  It sounds exactly like him...in 1976.

That low part on "He Come Down" that you mentioned, Adamghost, sounds to me like it could easily be Mike putting on a slightly funny voice, especially since he sings the bass elsewhere on the song. He would still have time to leap up to and sing the "He came down"s.

I wonder if it is Carl who sings the answering vocals to Mike's "He came down"s. Is anyone sure? Could it possibly be Blondie?

About "Mess of Help": I think now that the gritty voice could just as easily be Carl too, just as you say, Adamghost. I used to think the fourth (higher) vocal was Brian because I'd heard somewhere that Brian harmonised (on the verse I guessed), but now it sounds more likely to be Blondie or even Carl (yet) again. I can imagine Carl having a good time singing all those vocals on the verse. Alternatively perhaps it is in fact Brian singing the gritty one, and Carl carefully sung his vocal over it. I suppose they could always mix vocals inaudibly in places which might explain why the number of voices seems to vary.

That other voice on the 'She don't know' section sounds like Brian to me too, although I mean it sounds more like Brian than anyone else albeit still not quite right for him.

About "All Summer Long": It occured to me, John, that you could put in a mention of Brian for the "Not for us now" because it is a solo, even if a short one.

[adamghost]

That low part on "He Come Down" that you mentioned, Adamghost, sounds to me like it could easily be Mike putting on a slightly funny voice, especially since he sings the bass elsewhere on the song. He would still have time to leap up to and sing the "He came down"s.

Mess of Help has never been one of my favorite tunes, but this discussion is interesting! No one has mentioned Al at all in the mix, I am assuming he sang on the track so perhaps his voice may account for some of the harmonies in question?

Sure.  I don't hear him, though.  Doesn't mean he's not there.  I assume that's him on the banjo, although it's more solid picking than any of the other stuff we know he did.

As for Brian on "Cuddle Up"...those b. vox could well date from the SURF'S UP sessions -- that track started life IIRC as a SURF'S UP track called "Old Movie" and he's on "Live Again" which dates from around the same period -- and thus not have been on Carl's mind.

I'd be surprised if Brian WASN'T on "He Come Down," but who knows.  I'd like to know if that's him on that low part.  It sounds exactly like him...in 1976.

That low part on "He Come Down" that you mentioned, Adamghost, sounds to me like it could easily be Mike putting on a slightly funny voice, especially since he sings the bass elsewhere on the song. He would still have time to leap up to and sing the "He came down"s.

I wonder if it is Carl who sings the answering vocals to Mike's "He came down"s. Is anyone sure? Could it possibly be Blondie?

You mean at 3:49?  Pretty sure that's Carl.

As for the low part, I was going off old impressions...giving it a fresh listen, there's something very interesting going on there and it could be we're both right.

It sounds like you might be referring to the bass part BEFORE the "He Came Downs," which do sound like Mike...the part I'm talking about is at around 4:00 AFTER them, but backing up from that a little bit: on the "he came downs", Mike starts the call and response at 3:44 in the left channel, but he's doubled by a second voice in the RIGHT channel at 3:52 halfway through the call and response part, which is why "show me the way" and "thanking the lord" don't sound as tight as the lines that preceded it.   It's this right channel voice that I thought sounded like the 1976 Brian (the left channel is, indeed, Mike).  Listening more carefully, there's more to this than I thought:  the whole part goes "mmhmm, mmhmm, dit dit dit dit, yeah, mmm, [indistinct], Lord, mmmm yeah yeah yeah yeah."  It isn't as much of a ringer for '76 Brian as I thought, and I can buy that the show me the way" and "thanking the lord" are Mike (and I could also buy that the right channel bass vocal that is in the "yes I believe it!" part is also Mike), but listen to that "yeah."  There's just way too much body to that vocal for Mike to my ears.  Also, listening carefully to the LEFT channel vocal, which is definitely Mike up 'til 3:57 when he goes "mm-hmm-hmm." But the lower "yeah" sounds like in might be a different vocal, the same non-Mike voice that's in the right channel to me.  But it could be Mike.  I can't tell.

So, what's the scoop here?  The right channel vocal from 3:53 (and perhaps before that) to 4:02 doesn't sound like anybody in the group to me except Brian, four years later.  I suppose it could be Dennis, or perhaps Blondie or Ricky singing in an unfamiliar timbre, or some oddball like Jack Rieley.  Or I could be completely on drugs and it's all Mike, but it really does sound like a sketchy vocal track that Carl mixed in and out depending on how well this or that line sounded.  Which would point to Brian.  But darned if I  can say for sure.  It's interesting the way a lot of these '72-'73 tracks were recorded, because they were really favoring multiple counterpoint vocals over harmony stacks...possibly because they could only get a few members of the band in the studio at the same time.

[adamghost]

Sure.  I don't hear him, though.  Doesn't mean he's not there.  I assume that's him on the banjo, although it's more solid picking than any of the other stuff we know he did.

What did he do? I assume "California", but what else?

"Don't Go Near The Water," IIRC.  (Also "Battle Hymn of the Republic."  Heh)  I think he may have also played on "Santa Ana Winds".

[adamghost]

As for Brian on "Cuddle Up"...those b. vox could well date from the SURF'S UP sessions -- that track started life IIRC as a SURF'S UP track called "Old Movie" and he's on "Live Again" which dates from around the same period -- and thus not have been on Carl's mind.

I stand to be corrected, but the "Old Movie" from Surf's Up that I've heard was actually "4th of July" (with Jack singing (?) a totally different lyric). Dennis seemed to use "Old Movie" as a catch-all title around this time, and recycled it when he recorded "Cuddle Up" for his 1971 solo project. I'm happy in my own mind that the vocal that sounds like Brian on "CU" is Toni. (cf her own version a few years later)

Yeah, I think you're right there AGD.  I remember hearing a track for one or the other at some point with different, unused vocals and I think I got 'em mixed up.  Duh.

Re "Cuddle Up," there is a vocal that comes in at 1:16 that does sound like Brian.  I don't think it's Toni Tennille, but my opinion is that it's Blondie and not Brian.  The entry sounds very Brian-like, but it's also Blondie-like and the rest of what I can make out of those vocals sound like Carl and Blondie alternating improvised vocal lines (with a bit of Dennis as well).  Same deal starting around 4:10.  The only other place that sounds Brian-ish is the tailing off off of the second line at 4:30.  But I'd still bet that vocal is Blondie.

The falsetto melody on top of the stack at 3:12 does indeed sound like Toni Tennille. 

Did someone mention WHICH "Marcella" parts are Brian's?  I've always wondered that; I'm listening to it now for the first time in a while and there's a lot of stuff here (some of it sped up), especially Carl, Dennis and Mike parts.  Even now I can't pick Brian out for sure but I bet if someone pointed it out to me I'd be slapping my forehad because it's so obvious.  This is such a great track, unusually and authentically gritty for the BBs. 

Speaking of unidentified bass-y vocals, there's an odd one that I've never been able to identify in the left channel at 2:59 (not the high "Marcella hey" but the low "hey Marcella").  Again, it sounds most like '76-era Brian, but even then not that much.  There's a grainy drawl to it that doesn't sound like any of our lads and also suggests an unpracticed singer.  I'd bet that vocal part is a non group member...curious to know who it was (Jack Rieley?).

One more question:  do we know of any CATP tracks that Bruce participated in, singing or playing?

[adamghost]

I emailed Alan Boyd for more information about "Mess of Help" -- and if he gives me his permission I will repost it -- but this excerpt from this email made me feel smart: 

"By the way, did anyone note that Jack Reiley sings on MARCELLA?  "Heyyyyy Marcella" starting at 2:58?"

[adamghost]

Here's Alan Boyd with what he has to offer about "Mess of Help" (reposted by permission):

"Lemme see what I have in the database about the Beatrice tape (that's how it's still labeled)

Just listened to the album and single masters on iTunes with the "sound enhancer" all the way up (emphasizes the discrete left and right stuff).  I hear Carl as one of the voices there on the left channel, especially at 1:15 or so.  But someone else is singing a higher part on top of that... and I just don't know for sure who it is!  Don't wanna speculate...


Maybe one of these days we'll pull that 16 track tape and listen to the isolated vocals.


Here's what's on the tracksheet.  Nothing definite, I'm afraid.


1 - drums
2 - drums
3 - kick
4 - band fiddle
5 - band fiddle
6 - bass
7
8 -piano
9 - piano
10 - organ
11 - B vocal
12 - B vocal OD
13 - GTR combine
14 - lead voc
15 - lead voc
16-  local od (illegible)"

This is suggestive in a number of ways.  There's only two tracks for backing vocals, 11 and 12.  That means either they were all done in one go (that is with all members on hand doing their parts), or they were done on separate tracks earlier in the process and bounced down to two tracks (as were the guitars, apparently, on track 13...or the guitars were all cut to one track by different people, which would be unusual).  Judging by the parts in each channel and how they sound, it seems more likely that they weren't bounced, which would mean one band member per part.  But one can't say for sure.

So then we have two lead vocals at 14 and 15 and track 16, which says "local od."  OD means overdub, so chances are this was a VOCAL overdub...could this be Carl's right channel vocal, and 14 and 15 were the "rough" tracks that appear in the left channel?  In this case, they could all be Carl.  OTOH, if 16 is a different vocal overdub (perhaps the high pitched, sped up vocals in the third verse), then Carl could only be two of the three (or four) lead vocals.

Interestingly, I don't see a track for the banjo.  Was it on track 7 and not marked?  The banjo is panned opposite to the guitars, so it can't be on the guitar track.  I also don't hear an organ on the track, despite there being a track for one.  It may have not made the final mix.

One argument AGAINST track 16 being the final "clean" vocal is that it's recording custom to not put crucial tracks on the "edge" tracks (in this case, 1 and 16) because they are more susceptible to wear.  However, given that the stereo drums are on track 1 and 2, this protocol doesn't seem to have been followed.  It looks instead like the tracks were assigned with a different order in mind.  Either way, track 16 may well have been the last open track if track 7 had the banjo on it.

So, I got my wish and saw the track sheet, and it didn't really answer any questions.

[Alan Boyd]

Keep in mind - the info above is simply what was written on the track sheet (or it may have been a console strip, I don't recall) that happened to survive in the tape box.  Sometimes those documents pre-date the last sessions, and might not have all of the parts noted... and they might have later mixed and bounced selected tracks down in order to make room for additional overdubs.  There's no way to know for sure without pulling the tape itself...

Alan

[signum]

That low part on "He Come Down" that you mentioned, Adamghost, sounds to me like it could easily be Mike putting on a slightly funny voice, especially since he sings the bass elsewhere on the song. He would still have time to leap up to and sing the "He came down"s.

Mess of Help has never been one of my favorite tunes, but this discussion is interesting! No one has mentioned Al at all in the mix, I am assuming he sang on the track so perhaps his voice may account for some of the harmonies in question?

Sure.  I don't hear him, though.  Doesn't mean he's not there.  I assume that's him on the banjo, although it's more solid picking than any of the other stuff we know he did.

As for Brian on "Cuddle Up"...those b. vox could well date from the SURF'S UP sessions -- that track started life IIRC as a SURF'S UP track called "Old Movie" and he's on "Live Again" which dates from around the same period -- and thus not have been on Carl's mind.

I'd be surprised if Brian WASN'T on "He Come Down," but who knows.  I'd like to know if that's him on that low part.  It sounds exactly like him...in 1976.

That low part on "He Come Down" that you mentioned, Adamghost, sounds to me like it could easily be Mike putting on a slightly funny voice, especially since he sings the bass elsewhere on the song. He would still have time to leap up to and sing the "He came down"s.

I wonder if it is Carl who sings the answering vocals to Mike's "He came down"s. Is anyone sure? Could it possibly be Blondie?

You mean at 3:49?  Pretty sure that's Carl.

As for the low part, I was going off old impressions...giving it a fresh listen, there's something very interesting going on there and it could be we're both right.

It sounds like you might be referring to the bass part BEFORE the "He Came Downs," which do sound like Mike...the part I'm talking about is at around 4:00 AFTER them, but backing up from that a little bit: on the "he came downs", Mike starts the call and response at 3:44 in the left channel, but he's doubled by a second voice in the RIGHT channel at 3:52 halfway through the call and response part, which is why "show me the way" and "thanking the lord" don't sound as tight as the lines that preceded it.   It's this right channel voice that I thought sounded like the 1976 Brian (the left channel is, indeed, Mike).  Listening more carefully, there's more to this than I thought:  the whole part goes "mmhmm, mmhmm, dit dit dit dit, yeah, mmm, [indistinct], Lord, mmmm yeah yeah yeah yeah."  It isn't as much of a ringer for '76 Brian as I thought, and I can buy that the show me the way" and "thanking the lord" are Mike (and I could also buy that the right channel bass vocal that is in the "yes I believe it!" part is also Mike), but listen to that "yeah."  There's just way too much body to that vocal for Mike to my ears.  Also, listening carefully to the LEFT channel vocal, which is definitely Mike up 'til 3:57 when he goes "mm-hmm-hmm." But the lower "yeah" sounds like in might be a different vocal, the same non-Mike voice that's in the right channel to me.  But it could be Mike.  I can't tell.

So, what's the scoop here?  The right channel vocal from 3:53 (and perhaps before that) to 4:02 doesn't sound like anybody in the group to me except Brian, four years later.  I suppose it could be Dennis, or perhaps Blondie or Ricky singing in an unfamiliar timbre, or some oddball like Jack Rieley.  Or I could be completely on drugs and it's all Mike, but it really does sound like a sketchy vocal track that Carl mixed in and out depending on how well this or that line sounded.  Which would point to Brian.  But darned if I  can say for sure.  It's interesting the way a lot of these '72-'73 tracks were recorded, because they were really favoring multiple counterpoint vocals over harmony stacks...possibly because they could only get a few members of the band in the studio at the same time.

Thanks, I think it is Carl beginning at about 3:44.

I agree with you after listening to the right channel that there are two bass-y voices. The left channel one still sounds most like Mike to me. The right channel voice which I hadn't noticed before (singing dit dit dit and so on) I agree sounds like '76 Brian most of all (particularly that slightly loose "yeah"). The odd thing is that it is an octave above the left channel voice and they sing "yeah" perfectly together. The left channel "yeah" could possibly be the same voice but I think Mike is more likely. The reason why is that the right channel voice goes down an octave to the same notes as the left channel voice but sings "yeah" again instead of "Lord" at 4:00 and the right channel voice sounds less bass-y on the low notes.

It may be the same voice which is last to finish before everything stops except for the piano prior to the "He came down"s. I used to assume that was Dennis but it now sounds to me like '76 Brian.

I suppose all this is possible because Brian seems to have freely chosen his voice change to some degree and he is a bit croaky too on "Add Some Music" and "Til I Die".

On "Marcella" the "dooby doos" are just after the "Heyyy Marcella"s. They don't sound like Brian to me. Maybe Carl but not really like anybody in the group. The "Heyyy Marcella"s on the other hand do sound like Brian to me, and I used to think they were Dennis.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Not wishing to blow any straw houses down, but 1971/2 Brian didn't sound anything like 1976 Brian. The voice was still largely intact, if somewhat under-exercised. The "Awake" demo ?

[signum]

Not wishing to blow any straw houses down, but 1971/2 Brian didn't sound anything like 1976 Brian. The voice was still largely intact, if somewhat under-exercised. The "Awake" demo ?

That's a good point. I didn't mean that the voices sounded similar, but I supposed that when Brian's voice was still intact, circumstances or choice or a combination of both could possibly lead to him singing more like he did in '76 at times? What about "The Baker Man" for instance? I also wondered if Brian could have lost his voice a bit by 1972 but regained it by 1973 for "California".

Unfortunately I don't know the "Awake" demo.

[adamghost]

Not wishing to blow any straw houses down, but 1971/2 Brian didn't sound anything like 1976 Brian. The voice was still largely intact, if somewhat under-exercised. The "Awake" demo ?

Or the Nov. '74 "California Feeling" demo...no argument that Brian still had the old voice that late.  But the fact remains there is a guy that sounds like '76 Brian -- and no one else in the group -- on "He Came Down."  There's some evidence that there was an element of choice and change in placement behind the different sounds of his voice post '75.  That's still true today...when Brian sings in his "sweet" tone he can sometimes approximate, though not recapture, his earlier vocal style.  It's not all voice damage.  There's a change in delivery.

Of course "something" happened to Brian's voice to permanently change it in '75, but it is possible that Brian could "do" the later voice well before '75, particularly if he'd been smoking a lot that day.  If so, it would be enlightening as to the mechanics of the seemingly sudden shift.

There's an intriguing boot somewhere of an early take of Brian and Jan Berry's "Don't You Just Know It" which dates from around this time.  Brian is trying to negotiate in and out of falsetto and he is having all kinds of trouble with the crossovers, overshooting notes, hitting a wall at the top of his tenor range, etc.  What seems to happen with some singers when they shift to baritone is that they can no longer link up the two ranges...Elton John is a good example of this.  His voice was affected markedly by throat surgery, but it seems that it wasn't so much that post-surgery he couldn't sing falsetto at all (though his voice deepened more and more over the years) but that he couldn't move in and out of falsetto as effortlessly as he used to, and it became more and more something he could only rely on in very limited and brief situations.  I can tell you as a singer that the smooth crossover in and out of falsetto/head voice is the hardest thing to master and when your voice gets stressed it's often the first thing to go.

It may be that, in addition to whatever happened in '75, something similar was happening gradually with Brian in the early seventies.  For sure he was having trouble singing before that (witness the infamous "I can't sing this bitch" that closes his vocal on the SUNFLOWER-era outtake "Walkin'").  Al has opined that Brian deliberately destroyed his voice, and there's probably some truth to that.  But it may have also gotten to be too difficult to try to sing the old way.

Just theorizin'.  Bottom line, we actually don't have a lot of instances of Brian pre-1976 singing in the bass range.  So maybe that's just what he sounded like down there when he sang in a loud baritone, even in '72.

[pixletwin]

I have often mistook Jack Reiley's voice for 76 Brian. 

[MBE]

On Add Some Music and Til I Die Brian is simply singing in a lower register. He also on both songs does a high falsetto. I don't hear damage at all. I think Brian's just trying to rock up his falsetto on Don't You Just Know It. It's not what I would call his most polished vocal, but I don't think he was shooting for that. On Sweet Mountian and He Come Down I think Brian was again just singing low, kind of experimenting with his voice. At no time before 1975 do I hear Brian not nailing a vocal. I think he just didn't like "Walkin" as he said before it even started "I don't want to sing it".In fact what is there is quite good and full of sly nuance. As early as I'm Waiting For The Day, Brian was devloping his lower voice, but it's the on pitch one that lasted clear through 75. Heroes is another example of Brian singing low. He sure wasn't loosing his voice then.

[pixletwin]

MBE is right. Its definite (not even debatable really) that Brian was in full possession of his "sweet" voice until he declared war on it in 1975. Sadly Brian won.   

[Smilin Ed H]

His voice is pretty rough on Drip Drop from 74.

[Alan Boyd]

"Drip Drop" is from 1974?  Is there documentation on that?

On "Country Air," there's a moment there when one can almost hear what Brian's voice was gonna sound like in ten years.  "Get a look at THAT clear blue skyyyyy"

[Andrew G. Doe]

"Drip Drop" is from 1974?  Is there documentation on that?

Mea culpa - that's what it says on 10452. That's what I was told by, um, 'someone else'. 

[Jay]

I know that this is kind of off topic, but I just wanted to say that I LOVE this thread.    Hey, is there going to be a "bootleg" lead vocal topic?  For instance, the song Sherry, She Needs Me. It's a 1965 track with a 1976 vocal. What I can't figure out is, is it a 1965 falsetto, or was the vocal totally "new" when added in 1976?


Ok, back to the topic. I always  thought that the "gruff" vocal on You Need A Mess of Help was Blondie.

[Smilin Ed H]

So is Drip Drop from later?  76?

BW still had the falsetto in 76 - okay, admittedly it was more strained, but it was there.

[c-man]

I know that this is kind of off topic, but I just wanted to say that I LOVE this thread.    Hey, is there going to be a "bootleg" lead vocal topic?  For instance, the song Sherry, She Needs Me. It's a 1965 track with a 1976 vocal. What I can't figure out is, is it a 1965 falsetto, or was the vocal totally "new" when added in 1976?


Ok, back to the topic. I always  thought that the "gruff" vocal on You Need A Mess of Help was Blondie.

All "Sherry" vocals are from 1976 (and they're all Brian). 
The "Sandy" vocals, however, are from 1965, and they are the group (not just Brian).  But there's no lead vocal on that.

[Alan Boyd]

We don't seem to have Drip Drop in the vaults, so I couldn't say for sure when it was recorded - Andrew's source may well be accurate.