Van Dyke Parks' Musical Influence On "Smile"

[endofposts]

I'm not sure I've seen this discussed, but is it possible that Van Dyke Parks had a musical influence on "Smile," in addition to his lyric-writing?  I was listening to "High Coin" by Harper's Bizarre, which Van Dyke wrote, as well as playing piano on the session.  There's something about Van Dyke's piano style that reminds me of certain piano bits on "Smile," such as "Windchimes" and "Heroes and Villains."  I recall reading an interview with Steve Kalinich in which he discussed Brian's enjoyment of musical mimicry, including Brian being able to imitate Steve's style of piano playing.  I also offer the examples of Van's arrangement of "Sit Down, I Think I Love You" and "Song Cycle" itself.  It may also be Brian influencing Van, but I think it may have gone the other way, too. 

[Bicyclerider]

According to Van Dyke, he only provided lyrics to the musical lines played to him by Brian, supplying words to fit his melodies word/syllable to note.  However in Beautiful Dreamer I remember Brian saying that Van Dyke came up with something for Heroes and Villains?, and Van Dyke didn't deny it but looked embarassed.  Also, Van Dyke has told the story how he came up with the Surf's Up coda after Dennis came back from Europe and complained about being laughed at for their clothes - while consistent with the chords of the previous section, it is a slightly different melodic line.

Van Dyke was at many of the sessions for Heroes, and Child, and Holidays, etc., playing keyboards and sometimes counting off the start of the tracks, so there certainly could have been some minor influence on the arrangements of those songs.

[markcharles75]

You guys may be on to something.   I have just recently gotten into the Harper's Bizarre and soon as I heard them, I was like " wow, some of this sounds SMiLE "ish".   Ever hear "When I Was a Cowboy?" from Harper's Bizarre.  Although not written by Parks, it sounds like a 1968 version of Rio Grande.  I am not too sure how much Van Dyke was involved with Harper's Bizarre. Was he at alot of the sessions? Suggesting instruments, arrangements? even though he did not write all of the songs for the group? There is most certainly Smile like sounds to the group in places (When I was a Cowboy) , perhaps due to Van Dyke, therebye indicating that his musical stamp was not only all over Harper's Bizarre's recordings, but SMiLE's also?    Surely Parks did more than write Come to the Sunshine, said "here you go" and walked away.  It sounds like he must have been involved with arranging and producing the song.  I am not too familiar with the group, so I am just speculating. Maybe someone else could care to comment.  Interesting thread though.  Thought provoking.

[RONDEMON]

It could explain why nothing sounds like Smile before or after it was recording. Stylistically and musically. Most of it is pure BW though.

[Mahalo]

It could explain why nothing sounds like Smile before or after it was recording. Stylistically and musically. Most of it is pure BW though.

The time between the summer of 66 through the summer of 67 was a very special time. Therefore I think because all the changes America began to experience were so new that there was a mini- renaissance in the arts....Warhol, Beatles, Beach Boys, Doors, Dylan, etc. That is why I think nothing has sounded like Smile! before or since. I know my explanation is too short and not well thought out, but I hope you catch my drift.

Did VDP come up with the idea for the cello part on GV's??

I think VDP was just so abstract/off the wall/ fun/ and open minded that his influence on Brian's songwriting on Smile goes beyond words. Those were the best of times for the two of them...from what I understand, all that changed when the guys came back from touring. The vibeswere no longer the same. Prescription Speed didn't help either...

I'm sure VDP helped Brian with a note here or there, but the musical influence on Smile! has to be more profound just by his mere presence.

[Uncomfortable Seat]

You guys may be on to something.   I have just recently gotten into the Harper's Bizarre and soon as I heard them, I was like " wow, some of this sounds SMiLE "ish".   Ever hear "When I Was a Cowboy?" from Harper's Bizarre.  Although not written by Parks, it sounds like a 1968 version of Rio Grande.  I am not too sure how much Van Dyke was involved with Harper's Bizarre. Was he at alot of the sessions? Suggesting instruments, arrangements? even though he did not write all of the songs for the group? There is most certainly Smile like sounds to the group in places (When I was a Cowboy) , perhaps due to Van Dyke, therebye indicating that his musical stamp was not only all over Harper's Bizarre's recordings, but SMiLE's also?    Surely Parks did more than write Come to the Sunshine, said "here you go" and walked away.  It sounds like he must have been involved with arranging and producing the song.  I am not too familiar with the group, so I am just speculating. Maybe someone else could care to comment.  Interesting thread though.  Thought provoking.

It's hard to say exactly how much VDP was involved with Harpers Bizarre, because the memories seem to be somewhat hazy.  For example, VDP insists that he named the band, but Lenny Waronker scoffs at this notion.  Then again, Lenny Waronker didn't even remember that Harpers Bizarre recorded Vine Street on the Secret Life Of.  VDP does claim involvement in the creative formation of Harpers Bizarre and seems to have been around in the early days, and Lenny Waronker says VDP actually sang quite a few background vocals on the Anything Goes album in the absence of the National Guard-occupied Dick Scoppettone.  The bottom line is, VDP definitely had some influence, but how much is not quite clear.   Lenny had the final say on everything, though - Harpers Bizarre was actually much more his band than it was the actual band members'  . . .

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Ever hear "When I Was a Cowboy?" from Harper's Bizarre.  Although not written by Parks, it sounds like a 1968 version of Rio Grande.

wait a second - Lenny Waronker produced both of those songs

[markcharles75]

Uncomfortable Seat

Yes, Lenny produced When I was a Cowboy, but I am speculating that Van Dyke suggested certain musical ideas, themes, etc that are pure Van Dyke, hence pure SMiLE because he suggested them to Brian Wilson too: follow the line of thought?  Van Dyke personal stamp and influence is there.  Like the Cellos on Come to the Sunshine? Maybe he did come up with the cello idea for Good Vibrations.  So theory: Brian indeed wrote ALL of the songs/music for SMiLE.  But when it came time to produce the songs, elements of this new friendship/influence of Van Dyke crept in.  perfectly natural.  Mccartney was influenced by Sounds for Pepper (i.e. bass harmonica, bass lines).  So, as Forget Marie said,  maybe Brian did engage in musical mimicry and played like Van Dyke, and dropped that "style" afterwards: a unique one time deal in Beach Boy and musical history, never to be repeated again. that is why SMiLE sounds nothing like it before or since. Unique.

[the captain]

Regardless of whether it was some kind of formal "co-writing of the music" it would seem unnatural if the two men's ideas didn't creep into one another's thought processes. If they worked together in the same room for hours on end for days on end, I don't care that VDP says "the music is all Brian's"--the fact is that two such talented musicians HAD to share ideas. I mean, if Brian played a bit and looked to VDP for comment, would VDP sit mutely by? I think it would be perfectly natural for them to bounce ideas off one another that entire time, and that would help explain why Smile sounds so unique in Brian's catalogue.