Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again

[drbeachboy]

Whether it is Brian or Dennis, it still comes down to taste. Say, from the point of Friends through Holland, I like Brian's music better overall. It is just my taste. I like most of Dennis' stuff over that period, but not to the extent of Brian's. Most people rave over Cuddle Up, but it is a moody piece and I need to be in a certain mood to enjoy it. I think Slip On Through is Dennis' best song in that period, but I know many people disagree. It is all taste and that is how it should be.

[SMiLE Brian]

Dennis' songs go overboard with too much going on musically and emotionally. Thats who DW was, but I prefer Brian's productions as more balanced.

[Mikie]

OK, well now, Sheriff, you're putting a range of years in there that makes a little more sense than Berkensmustache's original post. That changes things quite a bit, don'tcha think? Like...... well, after the Surf's Up album, Brian faded with the sunset, then Dennis picked up the reigns and then after Bambu, Dennis started to check out and then Brian started to come back again. Realistically, it should be "after POB", which would be 1977, Dennis didn't write very much because technically Bambu was A LOT of Carli Munoz' compositions. But anyway....

So lessee, what you're saying is that between 1971 and 1983 Dennis wrote better songs than Brian.

There is absolutely no denying that Dennis was the second best songwriter in the Beach Boys. No doubt at all. I realized this way back in 1972 when I started collecting Beach Boys records (CT&P was one of the first that I bought). and it never even came up for debate with friends and family members (who are also fans). It was cemented in stone when POB came out 36 years ago this month, and after L.A. Light. But Brian's Love You album and his subsequent solo albums have some real gems in there too (I would definitely add "Rio Grande" to the long list). I've never, ever thought to myself or suggested to others that "Till I Die" was the last great Brian Wilson song. It's a great song, but there are just too many written after that are contenders for top 20 Brian Wilson songs than just that one song!  

P.S. I'm with ya, Mr. Pennick!

[Smilin Ed H]

Brian post-Surf's Up: Sail on Sailor, Marcella, Winter Symphony, My Diane, I'll Bet He's Nice, Rio Grande, Melt Away, From There To Back Again, Pacific Coast Highway, Cry, Lay Down Burden, Love and Mercy, Santa Ana Winds (depending on how much credit you're prepared to give him), Good Timin' (ditto), Fairy Tale Music, The Night Was So Young, Funky Pretty, Had to Phone Ya, That Lucky Old Sun/Morning Beat, Strange World, Summer's Gone, Midnight's Another Day,  Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel (still in need of a decent recording) and She's a Mystery, Johnny Carson, Let Us Go On This Way, Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight.

My opinion only, of course, and taking nothing away from Dennis' work, which I also love - just to illustrate that there have been many good BW tracks since Til I Die (which, for me, is a wonderful, haunting song).

[Wirestone]

Dennis wrote -- and this is my charitable estimate -- about a half dozen excellent songs.

Forever
Cuddle Up
Only With You
River Song
Tug of Love
Baby Blue

And maybe one or two others (and even this short list has too much that sounds alike). Everything else repeats the same lyrical and musical themes at various levels of sobriety.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dennis as a musical force. But as a songwriter, specifically, he leaves much to be desired. This is a man who didn't listen to music, other than stuff the BB did, and had almost no interest in honing his craft. And it shows.

[Sheriff John Stone]

OK, well now, Sheriff, you're putting a range of years in there that makes a little more sense than Berkensmustache's original post. That changes things quite a bit, don'tcha think? Like...... well, after the Surf's Up album, Brian faded with the sunset, then Dennis picked up the reigns and then after Bambu, Dennis started to check out and then Brian started to come back again. Realistically, it should be "after POB", which would be 1977, Dennis didn't write very much because technically Bambu was A LOT of Carli Munoz' compositions. But anyway....

So lessee, what you're saying is that between 1971 and 1983 Dennis wrote better songs than Brian.

Granted, I came onto the thread late (I had to work yesterday) and read through the posts quickly, but, I thought BergenWhitesMoustache was addressing the time frame from post-Til I Die thru Dennis's death. I stand to be corrected if I read that wrong.

And, yes, I believe that between 1971 and 1983 Dennis wrote better songs than Brian. And, I don't say that to denigrate Brian. The Beach Boys Love You is maybe my third favorite BB album ever. Not to get into the whole thing again, but I just found a depth in Dennis's music that was becoming absent in Brian's post-1971 music.

Obviously, the post-1983 work is a mute point in the debate, but I find very few - VERY FEW - of Brian's solo songs to be on a par with Dennis Wilson's 1971 -1979 work.

[Mikie]

I feel that we've dropped a level to debate what shouldn't have to be debated. I'm not debating here - just to be clear. Valid points you guys have made here and maybe a little disagreement too:

1. Since I'm not a musically technical person, Wirestone, I can't address your recent post regarding Dennis as a songwriter. Not sure I even agree with all of that, especially that he didn't hone his craft, but.....I just hear what I hear. If Dennis was a simpleton with his music, than so be it. I've read that before regarding POB, but again, if he didn't use suspended or augmented or maj 5th's, 9th's, or 11th's in his music, that's quite alright with me. And I believe Dennis wrote a LOT more great songs than what you've listed.  I just hear what I hear and I love it to death.
2. Smilin' Ed, thanks for taking the time to post some of Brian's best songs post 1971. I was too lazy to do so this morning. I'd probably add two or three more from singles/movie s-tracks to the list - maybe a couple more from BW-88.
4. Sheriff, I can't disagree there - between 1971 and 1983 Dennis did generally write better songs than Brian. There were great Brian moments on CT&P, Holland, and Love You. But in general, maybe even going back to 1970, Dennis had the edge with the quality of songs more than anyone in the group. Then Brian turned on the afterburners. I'll give you and the Doc the emotion part of it. Dennis had the edge there, by golly!
3. I've added to many, many, and more many Brian/Dennis "Best of" lists over the years. But I'm not gonna play that again now.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

I prefer Dennis in the time period discussed. But Brian is always FUN.

[Jon Stebbins]

Dennis wrote -- and this is my charitable estimate -- about a half dozen excellent songs.

Forever
Cuddle Up
Only With You
River Song
Tug of Love
Baby Blue

And maybe one or two others (and even this short list has too much that sounds alike). Everything else repeats the same lyrical and musical themes at various levels of sobriety.

That would be true if it was...but it isn't.

Little Bird is not similar to Be With Me...which is not similar to Celebrate the News...which is nothing like Lady...which is totally different than Sound Of Free...which is completely different than Slip On Through...which is nothing like Forever...which is unlike 4th of July...which is nothing like Wouldn't it Be Nice To Live Again...which is totally different than Cuddle Up...which is nothing like Steamboat...which is so different than Holy Man...which is nothing like Carry Me Home...which is totally unlike River Song...which is nothing like Rainbows...which is completely different than You and I...which is nothing like Moonshine...which is nothing like Love Surrounds Me...which is nothing like Baby Blue...which is completely different than Love Remember Me...which sounds absolutely nothing like Be Still...which could not be more different than Wild Situation etc...etc... etc... That is one of the coolest things about Dennis is the wide range of textures themes styles and genre influences. Dennis favorite music was BW music...but to say he listened to nothing else is so so inaccurate. He was all over the place, probably more eclectic in his tastes than anyone in the band. Great quotes from him on tour in the '60's to 70's going on about his love for the music of Spector, Beatles, Lesley Gore, Lovin Spoonful, Temptations, Love, Doors, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Dusty Springfield, Barbra Streisand, Bach and Wagner and so many others.

I think there were periods when Dennis didn't listen to much music outside of his own clique/realm etc... those anecdotes have been shared but don't paint the whole picture. The periods of little interest in the music of others would have been later, probably after the explosion in his prolific streak of composing. I think to get to where got as a songwriter there was a period of major soaking up of styles and ideas...from  '64 to '73-ish he listened to tons of music outside of the Beach Boys and Brian, his enthusiasm about other artists and composers is touched upon in Ian and my new book.

[Ziggy Stardust]

This is killing me.

[Mike's Beard]

I always felt Dennis wrote more for his own satisfaction than having a commercially minded outlook. This is both a blessing and a curse at different times. You could never accuse Dennis of 'phoning it in' but there are only so many sweeping, overwrought piano driven odes to Karen/Barbara/Christine I can take. Lyrically he could have lightened up more often.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Dennis wrote -- and this is my charitable estimate -- about a half dozen excellent songs.

Forever
Cuddle Up
Only With You
River Song
Tug of Love
Baby Blue

And maybe one or two others (and even this short list has too much that sounds alike). Everything else repeats the same lyrical and musical themes at various levels of sobriety.

That would be true if it was...but it isn't.

Little Bird is not similar to Be With Me...which is not similar to Celebrate the News...which is nothing like Lady...which is totally different than Sound Of Free...which is completely different than Slip On Through...which is nothing like Forever...which is unlike 4th of July...which is nothing like Wouldn't it Be Nice To Live Again...which is totally different than Cuddle Up...which is nothing like Steamboat...which is so different than Holy Man...which is nothing like Carry Me Home...which is totally unlike River Song...which is nothing like Rainbows...which is completely different than You and I...which is nothing like Moonshine...which is nothing like Love Surrounds Me...which is nothing like Baby Blue...which is completely different than Love Remember Me...which sounds absolutely nothing like Be Still...which could not be more different than Wild Situation etc...etc... etc... That is one of the coolest things about Dennis is the wide range of textures themes styles and genre influences. Dennis favorite music was BW music...but to say he listened to nothing else is so so inaccurate. He was all over the place, probably more eclectic in his tastes than anyone in the band. Great quotes from him on tour in the '60's to 70's going on about his love for the music of Spector, Beatles, Lesley Gore, Lovin Spoonful, Temptations, Love, Doors, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Dusty Springfield, Barbra Streisand, Bach and Wagner and so many others.

I think there were periods when Dennis didn't listen to much music outside of his own clique/realm etc... those anecdotes have been shared but don't paint the whole picture. The periods of little interest in the music of others would have been later, probably after the explosion in his prolific streak of composing. I think to get to where got as a songwriter there was a period of major soaking up of styles and ideas...from  '64 to '73-ish he listened to tons of music outside of the Beach Boys and Brian, his enthusiasm about other artists and composers is touched upon in Ian and my new book.

Steamboat is brilliant and my favorite Holland track.

Jon, Adam Marshland posted about a newly discovered Dennis song, possibly better than WIBNTLA. Can you comment or are you sworn to secrecy?

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Dennis wrote -- and this is my charitable estimate -- about a half dozen excellent songs.

Forever
Cuddle Up
Only With You
River Song
Tug of Love
Baby Blue

And maybe one or two others (and even this short list has too much that sounds alike). Everything else repeats the same lyrical and musical themes at various levels of sobriety.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dennis as a musical force. But as a songwriter, specifically, he leaves much to be desired. This is a man who didn't listen to music, other than stuff the BB did, and had almost no interest in honing his craft. And it shows.

Everything you've just written is complete bollocks.

[SMiLE Brian]

I always felt Dennis wrote more for his own satisfaction than having a commercially minded outlook. This is both a blessing and a curse at different times. You could never accuse Dennis of 'phoning it in' but there are only so many sweeping, overwrought piano driven odes to Karen/Barbara/Christine I can take. Lyrically he could have lightened up more often.

That is part of my problem with DW's music in a nutshell, its too intense at all times. Brian had the balance for songs like Fun,Fun,Fun or Til I Die.

[Wirestone]

Dennis wrote -- and this is my charitable estimate -- about a half dozen excellent songs.

Forever
Cuddle Up
Only With You
River Song
Tug of Love
Baby Blue

And maybe one or two others (and even this short list has too much that sounds alike). Everything else repeats the same lyrical and musical themes at various levels of sobriety.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dennis as a musical force. But as a songwriter, specifically, he leaves much to be desired. This is a man who didn't listen to music, other than stuff the BB did, and had almost no interest in honing his craft. And it shows.

Everything you've just written is complete bollocks.

It's personal opinion, my dear boy, no more and no less. I find Dennis's songwriting overrated in general. That being said, I'll also accept that POB is the best BB solo album, if only because he was the only brother to do one while he had full control of his production faculties. TLOS and BW88 have superior tunes (imo, imo, imo). But Brian's general lack of follow-through and challenges with lead vocals mean they don't reach the sustained level of feeling that Dennis managed.

[Shady]

I always felt Dennis wrote more for his own satisfaction than having a commercially minded outlook. This is both a blessing and a curse at different times. You could never accuse Dennis of 'phoning it in' but there are only so many sweeping, overwrought piano driven odes to Karen/Barbara/Christine I can take. Lyrically he could have lightened up more often.

I slightly agree with this. I don't like all of his ballads but when he got them right, lady, forever, only with you, they were incredible.

If he did more songs like Slip on through or GTKTW, I'd rate him higher than I already do. I tend to skip a few of Dennis's songs because they can be so emotionally raw you have to be in a certain mood to take them.

[Jay]

Dennis did some great stuff, but has his faults. Brian did some great stuff, but had his faults. Now, can we go back to picking on beachboys_fr again?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

^ Yup

[Jay]

 

[Don Malcolm]

I'm with Jay. Let's get back to piling on beachboys_fr--much more productive than trying to compare BW and DW.

[MBE]

Brian and Dennis both wrote great, great songs. Through Holland Brian was fantastic, but the number of so-so Brian songs from 1975-2013 outweigh the bits that recall his writing during his twenties. Dennis may well have had a problem like that had he lived, but we have nothing to go on after mid 1979 and Dennis was still writing well at the time. From 1968-73 they were both writing great songs, neither have to have their work justified by the failings of the other.

[Jay]

That's an interesing point that I never really even thought about. We never got to see/hear Dennis's "dry spell". It would have been interesting to compare his 1990's output versus the group's.

[Mr. Cohen]

Who knows, we may have gotten some rockers from Dennis a la Lennon's "How Do You Sleep?".

Once, I almost drowned in the ocean
I'm sure Mike Love was hopin'
So he could go on still cruisin'
Check out Brian, all that weight he's losin'
Remember when I gave him burgers and coke?
He'd write songs on an organ and go for broke

There used to be a Brian song about Sandy
Then along came Landy
And now it's Sherri, or Terri
I don't know, this alternate universe is dreary

(song kicks into sappy ballad mode)
IIIIIII
LLLOOOOOOOOOOVVVVEEEE
YOOOUUUUUUU
IIIIIIIII
DOOOOOOOOOOO

[phirnis]

One group with two world-class songwriters and they each had a very distinctive style of their own, so best to sit back and appreciate. Personally I can relate to DW's heavier material and I think that both as a singer and a as writer he reached another peak very late in the game with the songs he contributed to the Light Album, especially "Baby Blue". In Brian's writing I don't hear any weaknesses whatsoever until M.I.U. (and even then I think that most of the stuff he did was really quite good). Before that, it's all brilliant to my ears and I love the particular style he developed with songs like "I'll Bet He's Nice" and "Let's Put Our Hearts Together", both of which manage to sound both thoroughly sad and goofy all at once. That is a style that's truly unique and somehow it speaks to me like no other style in pop music does.

[beachboys_fr]

I'm with Jay. Let's get back to piling on beachboys_fr--much more productive than trying to compare BW and DW.

Agree!