Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again

[Aegir]

Spring Vacation is better than any Dennis Wilson song.

[Nicko1234]

Nicko1234 is last person you could ever consider as a brianista.

True. I'm a Beach Boys-ista in that I'm a fan of the work of all band members (apart from the bilge obviously).

[Andrew G. Doe]

All this back and forth over one song is driving me nuts. Its one DW song that is probably great, but nothing magnificent like BW's best works.

In my informed opinion - i.e. I've heard it - it is indeed magnificent.

[drbeachboy]

I know all about the history of Rio Grande. The point was limiting great amounts of Brian's output, but essentially hardly any of Dennis'. It is not Brian's fault that Dennis started later. As I stated, I am a very big fan of Dennis' musical output. Also, to Bergen...., Dennis had many co-writers, as well.

I feel like you've waded in here without a point, with all due respect.

Someone cast doubt as to whether WIBNTLA was going to be all that, so I stated my opinion that basically the best thing about The Beach Boys in the 70s was Dennis's material, therefore I'd guess that yes, it IS going to be all that.

The wider question of Brian vs Dennis is utterly irrelevent.

Sure, Dennis had co-writers too, but I don't really get the impression he wrote a verse of a song and then someone else cobbled it together and went 'tada! it's a stunning return to form'!

Your whole thread is irrelevant. As Jon stated, both have great music, but quite different in styles. Really, no need to be comparing the two. I love them both and for different reasons. Second, you post these types of threads in here, anyone, including myself, can post as we see fit. Are you now the posting police. Notice no question mark. You go on feeling however you want about Dennis & Brian, but I for one am just going to keep on enjoying what music both shared with the world. Pretty simple, really!

[runnersdialzero]

"Til I Die" is a tad overrated and far from the last great thing Brian ever did. I love it, but it's lacking something or other, partially in the way of vocal melody from a guy whose best skill (among many) was melody. Above all else, it's tiring to hear everyone express the David Leaf-esque "Brian was a genius for two albums but then Mike Love but then he laid in bed for 40 years except the only good thing The Beach Boys did after 1966 'Til I Die' and then Smile 2003." It ain't like that at all and I don't know if I'd even say it's a top tier Brian Wilson song from the 67-74 period.

"Funky Pretty" is better than all but maybe two or three Dennis songs, to me. I love the guy and I love his music, but I feel like there's this group of people who believe Pacific Ocean Blue to be better than every Beach Boys album after '66 because it has a whole lot of instruments on it and is more straight-faced and earnest than, say, "It's OK" or whatever.

There's just this attitude among some of "It's grand! Listen to all those instruments! It's huge! It sounds important! The Beach Boys never sounded this important after Pet Sounds!" when, to me, the actual musical songwriting on Love You beats the pants off of most (definitely not all) of Dennis' album. Like, I know it sounds crazy, but I swear to God there are many music fans out there who will take just about any straight-faced "serious" album (they're always thinking exclusively in terms of albums because they romanticize the idea of "IT'S AN ALBUM, MAN" as important) over something that's a little more unconsciously bizarre and not necessarily always in the best taste but has some really great music and songwriting going on.

I suppose this is why I don't find Pet Sounds to be the only worthwhile Beach Boys experience, why I can really enjoy the more questionable likes of "Hey Little Tomboy" or "Matchpoint Of Our Love", why I roll my eyes whenever I see someone saying Smile is good but "Barnyard" and "Vega-Tables" are trash, why I'm still a Weezer fan, why I think the first Pink Floyd album is by far the best, why I love Andrew W.K., etc. etc. etc. etc. where as all things named have some very violent opposition out there.

Sorry if that sounded condescending, it's not meant to be, just an observation I've made over time that gets me a little frustrated from time to time. It's like you can't convince a lot of people of the merit of a song or album unless it's a) this very intentionally important, serious thing or b) blatant parody. Also sorry for the rant and sorry to compare Denny and Brian. I never voluntarily the two in any way and just enjoy the music, but while everyone else is comparing I figgered I'd throw another opinion in there that probably isn't especially conventional.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

You can laugh at Brian's songs on CATP but how many compilations or live albums has Marcella appeared on in comparison with Dennis's two tunes? That is something quantifiable and something even you couldn't dismiss as 'meaningless waffle'. 

I'm not laughing at Brian's songs on CATP in the slightest, I'm mocking your debating tactics, which are genuinely tickling me.

Here you've used what I like to call the 'Mr Blobby', and yeah, it really IS meaningless waffle.

ie- You're claiming something to be of better quality because it has achieved greater commercial success. (Mr Blobby, of course, being a giant stupid puppet who had a huge UK number 1 single). You could equally say that oh I dunno... MacDonalds make a better burger than a four Seasons Hotel, simply because they sell more of them. Clearly a total nonsense.

Marcella is a GREAT song, but it's being on a bunch of comps and live albums doesn't make it a better song than Cuddle Up, simply a more commercial one.

[drbeachboy]

Bergen..., you're acting like an ass. Ok, you like Dennis' work more than Brian's after 1971. We get it goddamnit, we get it. Now, off your high horse.

[Nicko1234]

I'm not laughing at Brian's songs on CATP in the slightest, I'm mocking your debating tactics, which are genuinely tickling me.

Here you've used what I like to call the 'Mr Blobby', and yeah, it really IS meaningless waffle.

ie- You're claiming something to be of better quality because it has achieved greater commercial success. (Mr Blobby, of course, being a giant stupid puppet who had a huge UK number 1 single). You could equally say that oh I dunno... MacDonalds make a better burger than a four Seasons Hotel, simply because they sell more of them. Clearly a total nonsense.

Marcella is a GREAT song, but it's being on a bunch of comps and live albums doesn't make it a better song than Cuddle Up, simply a more commercial one.

Sorry but there shouldn't be discussion of 'tactics' on a board like this. There isn't some big argument to be won after all. You seem to have your head buried in the sand anyway and think your opinion is all powerful.

[Jeff]

Who the hell said WIBNTLA wasn't going to be on the set?! Source, please.

Dude who wants to be able to keep building his CD collection by hawking 30-second clips illegally.

It's times like this that make me really appreciate Andrew Doe.

Beach Boys_fr has shown himself to be as big of a douche as this board has seen, by a wide margin.  The latest ploy--pretending to know that WIBNTLA won't be on the box set so he can make more "deals"--was especially grating.   It was really very nice to see Andrew call him out.

I'm no purist when it comes to bootlegged material, but it amazes me that fr can be so disingenuous without getting more criticism.  In particular the notion that he's giving these fragments to people for "free" is laughable, given that it's actually an inducement to allow him to obtain additional "collectible" material.  He's certainly no lawyer.

Andrew was actually very restrained in his responses to this cretin.  Andrew, if there's ever a time for the old you to come out, this might be it...

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

"Til I Die" is a tad overrated and far from the last great thing Brian ever did. I love it, but it's lacking something or other, partially in the way of vocal melody from a guy whose best skill (among many) was melody. Above all else, it's tiring to hear everyone express the David Leaf-esque "Brian was a genius for two albums but then Mike Love but then he laid in bed for 40 years except the only good thing The Beach Boys did after 1966 'Til I Die' and then Smile 2003." It ain't like that at all and I don't know if I'd even say it's a top tier Brian Wilson song from the 67-74 period.

"Funky Pretty" is better than all but maybe two or three Dennis songs, to me. I love the guy and I love his music, but I feel like there's this group of people who believe Pacific Ocean Blue to be better than every Beach Boys album after '66 because it has a whole lot of instruments on it and is more straight-faced and earnest than, say, "It's OK" or whatever.

There's just this attitude among some of "It's grand! Listen to all those instruments! It's huge! It sounds important! The Beach Boys never sounded this important after Pet Sounds!" when, to me, the actual musical songwriting on Love You beats the pants off of most (definitely not all) of Dennis' album. Like, I know it sounds crazy, but I swear to God there are many music fans out there who will take just about any straight-faced "serious" album (they're always thinking exclusively in terms of albums because they romanticize the idea of "IT'S AN ALBUM, MAN" as important) over something that's a little more unconsciously bizarre and not necessarily always in the best taste but has some really great music and songwriting going on.

I suppose this is why I don't find Pet Sounds to be the only worthwhile Beach Boys experience, why I can really enjoy the more questionable likes of "Hey Little Tomboy" or "Matchpoint Of Our Love", why I roll my eyes whenever I see someone saying Smile is good but "Barnyard" and "Vega-Tables" are trash, why I'm still a Weezer fan, why I think the first Pink Floyd album is by far the best, why I love Andrew W.K., etc. etc. etc. etc. where as all things named have some very violent opposition out there.

Sorry if that sounded condescending, it's not meant to be, just an observation I've made over time that gets me a little frustrated from time to time. It's like you can't convince a lot of people of the merit of a song or album unless it's a) this very intentionally important, serious thing or b) blatant parody. Also sorry for the rant and sorry to compare Denny and Brian. I never voluntarily the two in any way and just enjoy the music, but while everyone else is comparing I figgered I'd throw another opinion in there that probably isn't especially conventional.

Great post

See, we don't share the same opinion, but you managed to engage in debate without

1/ Disrespecting my opinion without really making a counter argument:

And you just made it more ridiculous with that statement.

2/ Passing off opinion as fact:

Dennis, much like Carl, wrote a handful of arguably great songs. Both were studio wizards. But neither one could sustain the songwriting at anything approaching a stable standard of quality.

3/ Totally missing the point:

Brian is in a whole other world when taking in his whole body of work.

Sorry but there shouldn't be discussion of 'tactics' on a board like this.

That would be very convenient for you, wouldn't it!

I return to my initial post, which I stand by.

Brian couldn't touch Dennis, post 'til I die', in my opinion. Ridiculous as this thread is, from what i've heard (an apparently faithful cover, LOTS of high praise from those who've heard it), and the context of the time (DW at his peak), I'd bet money this track is pretty fucking great.

By all means disagree, but do so in a grown up manner, add something to the debate, like Runnerdialzero has. Then I won't have to be a giant asshole.

[Nicko1234]

That would be very convenient for you, wouldn't it!

I return to my initial post, which I stand by.

Sorry but you need to get over yourself. There is no big argument to win.

You may think I have been employing 'tactics' by talking about how highly rated songs are () but you seem to be blissfully aware of the fact that I was the guy who posted about believing the 1993 box set being too Brian-centric partly because of the inclusions on CD4 of all four of the songs that Brian contributed to CATP and Holland (including my personal feeling that Only With You should have been included). Several other people disagreed which is where I pulled my head in and thought, maybe just maybe my opinions on some songs don't tally with other people's. Perhaps you could do the same.

In my opinion some of Brian's songs are more highly regarded than Dennis's in the 1970s and some of Dennis's songs are more highly regarded than Brian's. Sorry if you hate me being so tactical. 

[drbeachboy]

"Til I Die" is a tad overrated and far from the last great thing Brian ever did. I love it, but it's lacking something or other, partially in the way of vocal melody from a guy whose best skill (among many) was melody. Above all else, it's tiring to hear everyone express the David Leaf-esque "Brian was a genius for two albums but then Mike Love but then he laid in bed for 40 years except the only good thing The Beach Boys did after 1966 'Til I Die' and then Smile 2003." It ain't like that at all and I don't know if I'd even say it's a top tier Brian Wilson song from the 67-74 period.

"Funky Pretty" is better than all but maybe two or three Dennis songs, to me. I love the guy and I love his music, but I feel like there's this group of people who believe Pacific Ocean Blue to be better than every Beach Boys album after '66 because it has a whole lot of instruments on it and is more straight-faced and earnest than, say, "It's OK" or whatever.

There's just this attitude among some of "It's grand! Listen to all those instruments! It's huge! It sounds important! The Beach Boys never sounded this important after Pet Sounds!" when, to me, the actual musical songwriting on Love You beats the pants off of most (definitely not all) of Dennis' album. Like, I know it sounds crazy, but I swear to God there are many music fans out there who will take just about any straight-faced "serious" album (they're always thinking exclusively in terms of albums because they romanticize the idea of "IT'S AN ALBUM, MAN" as important) over something that's a little more unconsciously bizarre and not necessarily always in the best taste but has some really great music and songwriting going on.

I suppose this is why I don't find Pet Sounds to be the only worthwhile Beach Boys experience, why I can really enjoy the more questionable likes of "Hey Little Tomboy" or "Matchpoint Of Our Love", why I roll my eyes whenever I see someone saying Smile is good but "Barnyard" and "Vega-Tables" are trash, why I'm still a Weezer fan, why I think the first Pink Floyd album is by far the best, why I love Andrew W.K., etc. etc. etc. etc. where as all things named have some very violent opposition out there.

Sorry if that sounded condescending, it's not meant to be, just an observation I've made over time that gets me a little frustrated from time to time. It's like you can't convince a lot of people of the merit of a song or album unless it's a) this very intentionally important, serious thing or b) blatant parody. Also sorry for the rant and sorry to compare Denny and Brian. I never voluntarily the two in any way and just enjoy the music, but while everyone else is comparing I figgered I'd throw another opinion in there that probably isn't especially conventional.

Great post

See, we don't share the same opinion, but you managed to engage in debate without

1/ Disrespecting my opinion without really making a counter argument:

And you just made it more ridiculous with that statement.

2/ Passing off opinion as fact:

Dennis, much like Carl, wrote a handful of arguably great songs. Both were studio wizards. But neither one could sustain the songwriting at anything approaching a stable standard of quality.

3/ Totally missing the point:

Brian is in a whole other world when taking in his whole body of work.

Sorry but there shouldn't be discussion of 'tactics' on a board like this.

That would be very convenient for you, wouldn't it!

I return to my initial post, which I stand by.

Brian couldn't touch Dennis, post 'til I die', in my opinion. Ridiculous as this thread is, from what i've heard (an apparently faithful cover, LOTS of high praise from those who've heard it), and the context of the time (DW at his peak), I'd bet money this track is pretty fucking great.

By all means disagree, but do so in a grown up manner, add something to the debate, like Runnerdialzero has. Then I won't have to be a giant asshole.

I am happy for you that you have been consoled. Also, being an asshole when forcing your opinion does not win you any converts. The best you can do is state it and let people decide as they will. Everyone's opinion holds just as much weight as yours. Like the old saying, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one."

[Andrew G. Doe]

(sits back, smiles, sends out for more popcorn and hot dogs...)

[drbeachboy]

(sits back, smiles, sends out for more popcorn and hot dogs...)

Admires that sh*t eatin' grin on your face.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

Sorry but you need to get over yourself. There is no big argument to win.

You may not understand why I bring up tactics (hmm...do I add being disingenuous to your list?), let me see if I can spell it out.

Saying something like "most people would agree that Brian wrote better material than Dennis, in the seventies" is not simply presenting an alternative opinion to mine, it's adding an extra "and everyone thinks you're wrong" subtext, that is flat out rude.

Can you understand that, on any level, or are you totally immovable on this?

I'm not trying to convert anyone, far from it, which is why I qualified my opening statement with a 'in my opinion'.

You're entitled to think what you like on the matter of The Beach Boys music, but I am too.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

 Also, being an asshole when forcing your opinion does not win you any converts.

Remember I said you were kind of missing the point earlier? You've done it again.

[phirnis]

"Til I Die" is a tad overrated and far from the last great thing Brian ever did. I love it, but it's lacking something or other, partially in the way of vocal melody from a guy whose best skill (among many) was melody. Above all else, it's tiring to hear everyone express the David Leaf-esque "Brian was a genius for two albums but then Mike Love but then he laid in bed for 40 years except the only good thing The Beach Boys did after 1966 'Til I Die' and then Smile 2003." It ain't like that at all and I don't know if I'd even say it's a top tier Brian Wilson song from the 67-74 period.

"Funky Pretty" is better than all but maybe two or three Dennis songs, to me. I love the guy and I love his music, but I feel like there's this group of people who believe Pacific Ocean Blue to be better than every Beach Boys album after '66 because it has a whole lot of instruments on it and is more straight-faced and earnest than, say, "It's OK" or whatever.

There's just this attitude among some of "It's grand! Listen to all those instruments! It's huge! It sounds important! The Beach Boys never sounded this important after Pet Sounds!" when, to me, the actual musical songwriting on Love You beats the pants off of most (definitely not all) of Dennis' album. Like, I know it sounds crazy, but I swear to God there are many music fans out there who will take just about any straight-faced "serious" album (they're always thinking exclusively in terms of albums because they romanticize the idea of "IT'S AN ALBUM, MAN" as important) over something that's a little more unconsciously bizarre and not necessarily always in the best taste but has some really great music and songwriting going on.

I suppose this is why I don't find Pet Sounds to be the only worthwhile Beach Boys experience, why I can really enjoy the more questionable likes of "Hey Little Tomboy" or "Matchpoint Of Our Love", why I roll my eyes whenever I see someone saying Smile is good but "Barnyard" and "Vega-Tables" are trash, why I'm still a Weezer fan, why I think the first Pink Floyd album is by far the best, why I love Andrew W.K., etc. etc. etc. etc. where as all things named have some very violent opposition out there.

Sorry if that sounded condescending, it's not meant to be, just an observation I've made over time that gets me a little frustrated from time to time. It's like you can't convince a lot of people of the merit of a song or album unless it's a) this very intentionally important, serious thing or b) blatant parody. Also sorry for the rant and sorry to compare Denny and Brian. I never voluntarily the two in any way and just enjoy the music, but while everyone else is comparing I figgered I'd throw another opinion in there that probably isn't especially conventional.

I think I love you.

[drbeachboy]

 Also, being an asshole when forcing your opinion does not win you any converts.

Remember I said you were kind of missing the point earlier? You've done it again.

You called yourself a "giant asshole". I could't agree more with your own assessment.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Have to say it, the level of invective here is, well... disappointing. 

[drbeachboy]

Have to say it, the level of invective here is, well... disappointing. 

Now, you are just showing off. I had to go look up "invective". We need you to ramp it up a level or two. Oh, and I hope your not eating chili dogs. You'll be farting all night.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

 Also, being an asshole when forcing your opinion does not win you any converts.

Remember I said you were kind of missing the point earlier? You've done it again.

You called yourself a "giant asshole". I could't agree more with your own assessment.

Sometimes you've just got to be a giant asshole on the internet, or the habitual point missers and name callers will just walk all over you. I'm okay with that.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Have to say it, the level of invective here is, well... disappointing. 

Now, you are just showing off. I had to go look up "invective". We need you to ramp it up a level or two. Oh, and I hope your not eating chili dogs. You'll be farting all night.

I have an extensive lexicon.

[Mendota Heights]

I am Swedish and even I know the word "invective".

[drbeachboy]

 Also, being an asshole when forcing your opinion does not win you any converts.

Remember I said you were kind of missing the point earlier? You've done it again.

You called yourself a "giant asshole". I could't agree more with your own assessment.

Sometimes you've just got to be a giant asshole on the internet, or the habitual point missers and name callers will just walk all over you. I'm okay with that.

If there are "habitual point missers", "then boy, I said boy, you ain't makin' yourself clear", as Foghorn Leghorn might say.

[drbeachboy]

I am Swedish and even I know the word "invective".

I never use it in my day to day conversations and writings. Must not be used much in here in the U.S., though come to think of it, I think AGD may have used it before in another thread awhile back.