Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[Sheriff John Stone]

My mix

https://youtu.be/yXjLo3mYVVI

https://youtu.be/Z5Y03Yldd8w

https://youtu.be/10lsycE9t1k

https://youtu.be/aYtjCZTBDWI

https://youtu.be/7HTiVweBCv8

https://youtu.be/DoFi59asxZ4

Very nice! You used very clear versions and the mixes are smooth, not jarring. I enjoyed it very much. Won't YouTube allow you to put all of your segments together or do you prefer it that way?

[zaval80]

Then why in god's name is Vege-Tables listed separately from The Elements on the tracklist if they were meant to be together!?!?!?!?

Hit single material.

[Cam Mott]

Then why in god's name is Vege-Tables listed separately from The Elements on the tracklist if they were meant to be together!?!?!?!?

Hit single material.

I don't know but that Peter Brown bit is potentially sort of third hand or a presumption by Gaines.  Maybe not.

However, the booklet shows (as Brad Elliott once pointed out) "My Vega-tables" was a lyric of "The Elements".  Anything is possible I suppose but to me the booklet implies The Elements was self contained at the time of the booklet illustration (September 1966 according Frank's best memory) including the lyric "My vega-tables". As I remember, Frank has also said the illustration for the title "The Elements" included all four elements which to my mind also implies a single track and title for all elements at that time.

I agree in speculating that, sometime in September or October after the illustration, Brian's mind changed and The Elements became something else and Vega-tables evolved to a stand alone track.  The Elements then being Fire and then maybe not and/or possibly a discarded WC fade and/or skits and/or etc., etc......

[stlabc]

My mix

https://youtu.be/yXjLo3mYVVI

https://youtu.be/Z5Y03Yldd8w

https://youtu.be/10lsycE9t1k

https://youtu.be/aYtjCZTBDWI

https://youtu.be/7HTiVweBCv8

https://youtu.be/DoFi59asxZ4

Very nice! You used very clear versions and the mixes are smooth, not jarring. I enjoyed it very much. Won't YouTube allow you to put all of your segments together or do you prefer it that way?

The six YouTube videos are because it was created with six Audacity projects and then six .wav files which I burnt onto a CD.  I just never took the time to assemble them all for YouTube.

[soniclovenoize]

Somebody has to mix this^! Please.

Sadly it can't be done, unless "Air" were to somehow materialize. I could make a quick mix using something in its place, such as the "whispering winds" section from "Holidays".

Yeah, the "whispering winds" section would be fine, or if anybody has any other suggestions of "windy" piano pieces floating around, just for the fun of it...

Well let's think about this here...  We learned that with Vege-Tables, we can indeed have a stand alone track as one of the four elements...  What if this "unfinished piano piece" of Air is actually the Tag Remake to Wind Chimes taped 10/5/66? 

Brian says the Air piano piece was unfinished...  Well, while the mix of Wind Chimes itself was obviously finished for SMiLE, that version was never released and what was released--the Smiley Smile version of Wind Chimes--does not use that Tag Remake.  Thus, that segment was technically "never finished". 

Makes sense to me. I still tend to think "Dada" might have been water based on its ultimate manifestation on Sunflower and ultimately BWPS, but the "all water" track makes for a tempting alternative. Vosse actually muddies the waters somewhat by first stating Brian wants to record a water album, but then later has him talking about an individual track composed of water sounds.

Just for the record, does anyone know where the "Dada" = song about a baby quote comes from?

Hmm, I posted about this, the chronology of Dada on the previous page...  It didn't seem to take on a Water theme until SMile was dead. 

Jason, you said above, "closed it with the final "ahhh, similar to BWPS"....well, that's a part of the BWPS mix that I like a lot, and came to use, in a way.

Maybe I was influenced (prejudiced?) by the 20/20 album placement of "Our Prayer" (yes, I know it has absolutely nothing to do with the SMiLE sequencing), but then BWPS did the same thing, as you say, in a way. So I have ended my mix for a long time:

- Our Prayer
- Surf's Up

I never bought "Our Prayer" as the opening track (but that's for later discussion I'm sure), and thought it was perfect near the end (a la BWPS, except the WHOLE prayer) and then ending with the masterpiece, "Surf's Up" (another topic for later).

I need to state my opinion here, that the ending Child reprise tagged on to Surf's Up--which Brian so adamantly believed should go there when the BBs were finishing it up--sounds like a metaphorical "amen" to me.  I could be wrong, but Vosse's comments, to me, seemed to describe that part, and the "Their song is love and the children know the way..." is the "amen" of SMiLE, not Our Prayer. 

All supposition, of course, but I don't think a totally implausible interpretation of the facts as we have 'em. Any thoughts?

yeah, it's pretty much the only rational explanation, that the final 5 listings were more "Song Ideas I need to somehow finish!" and Brian knew he had a few months to figure them out. 

Again, thanks. (I'm just about to head out, so you can all feel relieved this will be my last effusive post for a while.) I was just thinking last night that "we had some idea of what water was going to be" (Anderle) and Vosse's comments about recording different water sounds might be connected. This bit of tape, which I had completely forgotten ever hearing, might be another clue as to the original (?) plan for "The Elements".

Conjecture: Fire (instrumental, some "crackling" FX)/Water (actual water sounds blended and cut up to create something akin to "music concrete")/Air ("a piano piece" - the much debated bio)/Earth (stripped down, largely vocal effort to close the sequence). Perhaps linked, as Mujan suggests, with "Psycodelic Sounds"-style chanting/vocal effects?

What's nice about this notion is we have two innovative instrumental pieces that nonetheless use conventional instrumentation, expansively and minimally arranged ("Fire" and "Air" respectively) interspersed with two equally avant garde sections, using non-traditional sounds ("Water") and a stripped down fragment employing SMiLE's much-referenced "humour" aspect ("Cornucopia" Veggies). Plus, the Boys being all involved in the last part means "The Elements" can be truthfully described as a Beach Boys track and not essentially a BW solo instrumental effort.

This is probably both a) total reaching and b) madness, but something about the idea tickles me regardless.

Relistened to Psychedelic Sounds the other day (not one of my favorites... sorry, I just don't buy into the whole supposed humor/spoken word element of SMile) and it occurred to be, they vocalized three of the Elements right there:  Earth (several vegetables chants), Water (several underwater and bottom of the sea chants) and Air (heavy breathing). 

This has to be more than coincidence...  What if Brian himself was not sure how to create the Elements and thus experimented with several types of audio design to create a suite of the four elements (from formal, organized music in Mrs O'Leary's Cow, to sound samples to experimental spoken word segments)? 

[guitarfool2002]

Somebody has to mix this^! Please.

Sadly it can't be done, unless "Air" were to somehow materialize. I could make a quick mix using something in its place, such as the "whispering winds" section from "Holidays".

Yeah, the "whispering winds" section would be fine, or if anybody has any other suggestions of "windy" piano pieces floating around, just for the fun of it...

Well let's think about this here...  We learned that with Vege-Tables, we can indeed have a stand alone track as one of the four elements...  What if this "unfinished piano piece" of Air is actually the Tag Remake to Wind Chimes taped 10/5/66? 

Brian says the Air piano piece was unfinished...  Well, while the mix of Wind Chimes itself was obviously finished for SMiLE, that version was never released and what was released--the Smiley Smile version of Wind Chimes--does not use that Tag Remake.  Thus, that segment was technically "never finished". 

Makes sense to me. I still tend to think "Dada" might have been water based on its ultimate manifestation on Sunflower and ultimately BWPS, but the "all water" track makes for a tempting alternative. Vosse actually muddies the waters somewhat by first stating Brian wants to record a water album, but then later has him talking about an individual track composed of water sounds.

Just for the record, does anyone know where the "Dada" = song about a baby quote comes from?

Hmm, I posted about this, the chronology of Dada on the previous page...  It didn't seem to take on a Water theme until SMile was dead. 

Jason, you said above, "closed it with the final "ahhh, similar to BWPS"....well, that's a part of the BWPS mix that I like a lot, and came to use, in a way.

Maybe I was influenced (prejudiced?) by the 20/20 album placement of "Our Prayer" (yes, I know it has absolutely nothing to do with the SMiLE sequencing), but then BWPS did the same thing, as you say, in a way. So I have ended my mix for a long time:

- Our Prayer
- Surf's Up

I never bought "Our Prayer" as the opening track (but that's for later discussion I'm sure), and thought it was perfect near the end (a la BWPS, except the WHOLE prayer) and then ending with the masterpiece, "Surf's Up" (another topic for later).

I need to state my opinion here, that the ending Child reprise tagged on to Surf's Up--which Brian so adamantly believed should go there when the BBs were finishing it up--sounds like a metaphorical "amen" to me.  I could be wrong, but Vosse's comments, to me, seemed to describe that part, and the "Their song is love and the children know the way..." is the "amen" of SMiLE, not Our Prayer. 

All supposition, of course, but I don't think a totally implausible interpretation of the facts as we have 'em. Any thoughts?

yeah, it's pretty much the only rational explanation, that the final 5 listings were more "Song Ideas I need to somehow finish!" and Brian knew he had a few months to figure them out. 

Again, thanks. (I'm just about to head out, so you can all feel relieved this will be my last effusive post for a while.) I was just thinking last night that "we had some idea of what water was going to be" (Anderle) and Vosse's comments about recording different water sounds might be connected. This bit of tape, which I had completely forgotten ever hearing, might be another clue as to the original (?) plan for "The Elements".

Conjecture: Fire (instrumental, some "crackling" FX)/Water (actual water sounds blended and cut up to create something akin to "music concrete")/Air ("a piano piece" - the much debated bio)/Earth (stripped down, largely vocal effort to close the sequence). Perhaps linked, as Mujan suggests, with "Psycodelic Sounds"-style chanting/vocal effects?

What's nice about this notion is we have two innovative instrumental pieces that nonetheless use conventional instrumentation, expansively and minimally arranged ("Fire" and "Air" respectively) interspersed with two equally avant garde sections, using non-traditional sounds ("Water") and a stripped down fragment employing SMiLE's much-referenced "humour" aspect ("Cornucopia" Veggies). Plus, the Boys being all involved in the last part means "The Elements" can be truthfully described as a Beach Boys track and not essentially a BW solo instrumental effort.

This is probably both a) total reaching and b) madness, but something about the idea tickles me regardless.

Relistened to Psychedelic Sounds the other day (not one of my favorites... sorry, I just don't buy into the whole supposed humor/spoken word element of SMile) and it occurred to be, they vocalized three of the Elements right there:  Earth (several vegetables chants), Water (several underwater and bottom of the sea chants) and Air (heavy breathing). 

This has to be more than coincidence...  What if Brian himself was not sure how to create the Elements and thus experimented with several types of audio design to create a suite of the four elements (from formal, organized music in Mrs O'Leary's Cow, to sound samples to experimental spoken word segments)? 

Echo in here?    You just repeated what I wrote yesterday, chants/elements, etc... whether a coincidence or sharp minds thinking alike, check it out...you even got the Wind Chimes tag mentioned. Hmmm.

When the "psychodelic sounds" chanting session happened, Brian and those with him already knew what the "fire" element was musically. Consider that once Brian got away from the humor skits, the falling into the microphone and Good Humor and falling into the piano comedy, he focused the assembled chanters into what to my ears has always sounded like three elements.

"I got a big bag of vegetables, wheres my beets and carrots..." - Vegetables grow from...The Earth.

"Underwater, swim fishy, etc" - Fish, underwater...Water.

"Breathe, inhale/exhale, all of the breath noises"...Air.

For those who wrote off those chant sessions as stoned experiments, is it a coincidence that once these guys got focused on a theme that didn't involve comedy skits, they chanted and breathed and hummed and whatever else around the themes of those three elements other than fire.

I never saw that as accidental. What i did see it as was almost a tragic loss of whatever creative spark Brian and his buddies had that night, because once they got going and jelled together, some of it makes for compelling listening, especially the "water" sounds when studio effects and echoes/reverbs were added to the vocal montages. I think it's brilliant, and for whatever reason the closest actual use of those sounds we ever got was Cool Cool Water on Sunflower, and even on that apparently Brian was really against the band using the chanting on the new track to the point of asking them not to do it. (Corrections on that welcome, as always)

Air as a piano piece...Vosse mentioned the "tag" to Wind Chimes, the multilayered overdubbed piano section...at some point in time, 1966, why could that not have been considered as a musical section for the "air" element? As a musical tag, in the edits we've heard, is it welded to the actual Wind Chimes vocal track in any way, or could it just as easily have been moved and used elsewhere? It could have been, it's definitely sounding like something "air" in nature, and it lines up with what Brian called "a piano piece" that was never finished.

Wind Chimes survived structurally and lyrically on Smiley Smile, but this original "tag" did not, replaced by the whispering winds vocal outtro and fade. Which suggests it may have been more than a tag and may have been interchangeable to serve another musical purpose. It wasn't crucial to the actual song, it was a "tag". Or was it "air"?

[Jason Penick]

Hmm, I posted about this, the chronology of Dada on the previous page...  It didn't seem to take on a Water theme until SMile was dead. 

Yes, I read your post, and with all due respect it didn't provide any information that anyone who owns a copy of TSS or was familiar with the chronology wouldn't have already known, which is why I didn't address it.

What I'm looking for is a direct quote from somebody confirming that Dada is indeed about a baby. What I've found so far is Marilyn Wilson saying that she provided Brian with a baby bottle filled with chocolate milk as he was writing the song, and Brian saying he wrote the gist of "Cool Cool Water" in March of 1967 on the first day he moved into his Bel Air house, neither of which proves or disproves anything in regards as to whether or not it was considered to be "Water" at any given point.

We already know according to the dates you posted that he was toying around with the melody as early as December, so I think the jury is still out on this one unless someone can produce solid evidence.

Could it initially have been about a baby until March when it was re-written or fleshed out? Quite possibly! I'm just looking for more evidence.

Relistened to Psychedelic Sounds the other day (not one of my favorites... sorry, I just don't buy into the whole supposed humor/spoken word element of SMile) and it occurred to be, they vocalized three of the Elements right there:  Earth (several vegetables chants), Water (several underwater and bottom of the sea chants) and Air (heavy breathing). 

This has to be more than coincidence...  What if Brian himself was not sure how to create the Elements and thus experimented with several types of audio design to create a suite of the four elements (from formal, organized music in Mrs O'Leary's Cow, to sound samples to experimental spoken word segments)?

I was tempted to believe the chants had to be part of the album for a long time. Indeed, it couldn't have just been coincidental that these chants, whatever their purpose, were largely elemental in nature. However, there's a quote from David Anderle that's somewhat problematic in that regard:

"We were aware, he made us aware, of what fire was going to be, and what water was going to be; we had some idea of air. That was where it stopped. None of us had any ideas as to how it was going to tie together, except that it appeared to us to be an opera." (Williams p. 56)

Again this is somewhat cryptic, but since Anderle had participated in the chanting session, doesn't it stand to reason he would have had "some idea" of what earth was, had it included the vegetable chants?

Okay, granted Brian might not have been inclined to share most of his ideas with anyone other than Van Dyke (indeed, the band themselves were largely unaware of how the songs fit together according to Anderle), but Anderle does mention being made aware of water, so it stands to reason that if water had included chanting, he would logically draw the conclusion that earth did as well and thus have "some idea" as to its structure.

The reference to an "opera" is interesting too. In the past The Elements was considered by some researchers to be a purely instrumental suite, but operas by definition contain singers.

Of course all of this is total conjecture on my part based off the quote. Just throwing it out there in hopes somebody can run with it.

[guitarfool2002]

Somebody did.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Somebody has to mix this^! Please.

Sadly it can't be done, unless "Air" were to somehow materialize. I could make a quick mix using something in its place, such as the "whispering winds" section from "Holidays".

Yeah, the "whispering winds" section would be fine, or if anybody has any other suggestions of "windy" piano pieces floating around, just for the fun of it...

Well let's think about this here...  We learned that with Vege-Tables, we can indeed have a stand alone track as one of the four elements...  What if this "unfinished piano piece" of Air is actually the Tag Remake to Wind Chimes taped 10/5/66?  

Brian says the Air piano piece was unfinished...  Well, while the mix of Wind Chimes itself was obviously finished for SMiLE, that version was never released and what was released--the Smiley Smile version of Wind Chimes--does not use that Tag Remake.  Thus, that segment was technically "never finished".  

Makes sense to me. I still tend to think "Dada" might have been water based on its ultimate manifestation on Sunflower and ultimately BWPS, but the "all water" track makes for a tempting alternative. Vosse actually muddies the waters somewhat by first stating Brian wants to record a water album, but then later has him talking about an individual track composed of water sounds.

Just for the record, does anyone know where the "Dada" = song about a baby quote comes from?

Hmm, I posted about this, the chronology of Dada on the previous page...  It didn't seem to take on a Water theme until SMile was dead.  

Jason, you said above, "closed it with the final "ahhh, similar to BWPS"....well, that's a part of the BWPS mix that I like a lot, and came to use, in a way.

Maybe I was influenced (prejudiced?) by the 20/20 album placement of "Our Prayer" (yes, I know it has absolutely nothing to do with the SMiLE sequencing), but then BWPS did the same thing, as you say, in a way. So I have ended my mix for a long time:

- Our Prayer
- Surf's Up

I never bought "Our Prayer" as the opening track (but that's for later discussion I'm sure), and thought it was perfect near the end (a la BWPS, except the WHOLE prayer) and then ending with the masterpiece, "Surf's Up" (another topic for later).

I need to state my opinion here, that the ending Child reprise tagged on to Surf's Up--which Brian so adamantly believed should go there when the BBs were finishing it up--sounds like a metaphorical "amen" to me.  I could be wrong, but Vosse's comments, to me, seemed to describe that part, and the "Their song is love and the children know the way..." is the "amen" of SMiLE, not Our Prayer.  

All supposition, of course, but I don't think a totally implausible interpretation of the facts as we have 'em. Any thoughts?

yeah, it's pretty much the only rational explanation, that the final 5 listings were more "Song Ideas I need to somehow finish!" and Brian knew he had a few months to figure them out.  

Again, thanks. (I'm just about to head out, so you can all feel relieved this will be my last effusive post for a while.) I was just thinking last night that "we had some idea of what water was going to be" (Anderle) and Vosse's comments about recording different water sounds might be connected. This bit of tape, which I had completely forgotten ever hearing, might be another clue as to the original (?) plan for "The Elements".

Conjecture: Fire (instrumental, some "crackling" FX)/Water (actual water sounds blended and cut up to create something akin to "music concrete")/Air ("a piano piece" - the much debated bio)/Earth (stripped down, largely vocal effort to close the sequence). Perhaps linked, as Mujan suggests, with "Psycodelic Sounds"-style chanting/vocal effects?

What's nice about this notion is we have two innovative instrumental pieces that nonetheless use conventional instrumentation, expansively and minimally arranged ("Fire" and "Air" respectively) interspersed with two equally avant garde sections, using non-traditional sounds ("Water") and a stripped down fragment employing SMiLE's much-referenced "humour" aspect ("Cornucopia" Veggies). Plus, the Boys being all involved in the last part means "The Elements" can be truthfully described as a Beach Boys track and not essentially a BW solo instrumental effort.

This is probably both a) total reaching and b) madness, but something about the idea tickles me regardless.

Relistened to Psychedelic Sounds the other day (not one of my favorites... sorry, I just don't buy into the whole supposed humor/spoken word element of SMile) and it occurred to be, they vocalized three of the Elements right there:  Earth (several vegetables chants), Water (several underwater and bottom of the sea chants) and Air (heavy breathing).  

This has to be more than coincidence...  What if Brian himself was not sure how to create the Elements and thus experimented with several types of audio design to create a suite of the four elements (from formal, organized music in Mrs O'Leary's Cow, to sound samples to experimental spoken word segments)?  

Echo in here?    You just repeated what I wrote yesterday, chants/elements, etc... whether a coincidence or sharp minds thinking alike, check it out...you even got the Wind Chimes tag mentioned. Hmmm.

When the "psychodelic sounds" chanting session happened, Brian and those with him already knew what the "fire" element was musically. Consider that once Brian got away from the humor skits, the falling into the microphone and Good Humor and falling into the piano comedy, he focused the assembled chanters into what to my ears has always sounded like three elements.

"I got a big bag of vegetables, wheres my beets and carrots..." - Vegetables grow from...The Earth.

"Underwater, swim fishy, etc" - Fish, underwater...Water.

"Breathe, inhale/exhale, all of the breath noises"...Air.

For those who wrote off those chant sessions as stoned experiments, is it a coincidence that once these guys got focused on a theme that didn't involve comedy skits, they chanted and breathed and hummed and whatever else around the themes of those three elements other than fire.

I never saw that as accidental. What i did see it as was almost a tragic loss of whatever creative spark Brian and his buddies had that night, because once they got going and jelled together, some of it makes for compelling listening, especially the "water" sounds when studio effects and echoes/reverbs were added to the vocal montages. I think it's brilliant, and for whatever reason the closest actual use of those sounds we ever got was Cool Cool Water on Sunflower, and even on that apparently Brian was really against the band using the chanting on the new track to the point of asking them not to do it. (Corrections on that welcome, as always)

Air as a piano piece...Vosse mentioned the "tag" to Wind Chimes, the multilayered overdubbed piano section...at some point in time, 1966, why could that not have been considered as a musical section for the "air" element? As a musical tag, in the edits we've heard, is it welded to the actual Wind Chimes vocal track in any way, or could it just as easily have been moved and used elsewhere? It could have been, it's definitely sounding like something "air" in nature, and it lines up with what Brian called "a piano piece" that was never finished.

Wind Chimes survived structurally and lyrically on Smiley Smile, but this original "tag" did not, replaced by the whispering winds vocal outtro and fade. Which suggests it may have been more than a tag and may have been interchangeable to serve another musical purpose. It wasn't crucial to the actual song, it was a "tag". Or was it "air"?

Not to mention what I've been saying for months. Nearly a year now, actually. Thank you, guitarfool. I think you're the only other person who has appreciated how important Psychedelic Sounds is in the scheme of things. I don't understand why some people can't make the connection between the elements we don't have and the material recorded there. I get it if someone isn't a fan of the spoken word humor idea, but to argue for Wind Chimes and Dada over Breathing and Undersea Chant is baffling to me.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Somebody did.

*ahem*

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't understand why some people can't make the connection between the elements we don't have and the material recorded there. I get it if someone isn't a fan of the spoken word humor idea, but to argue for Wind Chimes and Dada over Breathing and Undersea Chant is baffling to me.

I put some weight on Psychedelic Sounds. I believe that Brian recorded just about everything he thought of during that time, and, everything he recorded he intended for SMiLE - in some form - even if for a brief, fleeting moment.

That being said, I still have questions how he would've incorporated the "vocals" of Psychedelic Sounds into "The Elements". We know that "Fire" was an instrumental, Brian specifically mentioned in the Preiss book that "Air" was a piano piece, and there were reports of Michael Vosse being commissioned to record "water sounds". So, that would result in three of the four elements segments being "instrumental". Yes, there is the possibility of the various chants of Psychedelic Sounds being "element-related", and the possibility of the chants being recorded OVER the instrumental track, much like Darian did on BWPS with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Speaking of BWPS, and not to open that can of worms (pun intended), but Darian had the chance to employ chants for an "Elements" track on BWPS - and didn't.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't understand why some people can't make the connection between the elements we don't have and the material recorded there. I get it if someone isn't a fan of the spoken word humor idea, but to argue for Wind Chimes and Dada over Breathing and Undersea Chant is baffling to me.

I put some weight on Psychedelic Sounds. I believe that Brian recorded just about everything he thought of during that time, and, everything he recorded he intended for SMiLE - in some form - even if for a brief, fleeting moment.

That being said, I still have questions how he would've incorporated the "vocals" of Psychedelic Sounds into "The Elements". We know that "Fire" was an instrumental, Brian specifically mentioned in the Preiss book that "Air" was a piano piece, and there were reports of Michael Vosse being commissioned to record "water sounds". So, that would result in three of the four elements segments being "instrumental". Yes, there is the possibility of the various chants of Psychedelic Sounds being "element-related", and the possibility of the chants being recorded OVER the instrumental track, much like Darian did on BWPS with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Speaking of BWPS, and not to open that can of worms (pun intended), but Darian had the chance to employ chants for an "Elements" track on BWPS - and didn't.

Just as Fire has vocal "oos" couldn't this Air piano (if that's what it was) have breathing overdubs? When I refer to Undersea Chant I'm not talking about the "fish fish underwater SHARK!" chant, but the extremely atmospheric recording where they imitate fish, that literally sounds as though you're on the ocean floor. It's possible those water sounds could have been overdubs for that, or gathered for inspiration. In any case, UC exists and Vosses recordings don't. So when it comes to reconstruction that's the most plausible piece we have.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't understand why some people can't make the connection between the elements we don't have and the material recorded there. I get it if someone isn't a fan of the spoken word humor idea, but to argue for Wind Chimes and Dada over Breathing and Undersea Chant is baffling to me.

I put some weight on Psychedelic Sounds. I believe that Brian recorded just about everything he thought of during that time, and, everything he recorded he intended for SMiLE - in some form - even if for a brief, fleeting moment.

That being said, I still have questions how he would've incorporated the "vocals" of Psychedelic Sounds into "The Elements". We know that "Fire" was an instrumental, Brian specifically mentioned in the Preiss book that "Air" was a piano piece, and there were reports of Michael Vosse being commissioned to record "water sounds". So, that would result in three of the four elements segments being "instrumental". Yes, there is the possibility of the various chants of Psychedelic Sounds being "element-related", and the possibility of the chants being recorded OVER the instrumental track, much like Darian did on BWPS with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Speaking of BWPS, and not to open that can of worms (pun intended), but Darian had the chance to employ chants for an "Elements" track on BWPS - and didn't.

Just as Fire has vocal "oos" couldn't this Air piano (if that's what it was) have breathing overdubs? When I refer to Undersea Chant I'm not talking about the "fish fish underwater SHARK!" chant, but the extremely atmospheric recording where they imitate fish, that literally sounds as though you're on the ocean floor. It's possible those water sounds could have been overdubs for that, or gathered for inspiration. In any case, UC exists and Vosses recordings don't. So when it comes to reconstruction that's the most plausible piece we have.

Absolutely...no argument here. It was certainly possible. And, as I posted above yesterday, now would a great time for some of the talented "mixers" on this board to give it a shot and record an "Elements" track using whatever snippets are out there. It would be fascinating to hear.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't understand why some people can't make the connection between the elements we don't have and the material recorded there. I get it if someone isn't a fan of the spoken word humor idea, but to argue for Wind Chimes and Dada over Breathing and Undersea Chant is baffling to me.

I put some weight on Psychedelic Sounds. I believe that Brian recorded just about everything he thought of during that time, and, everything he recorded he intended for SMiLE - in some form - even if for a brief, fleeting moment.

That being said, I still have questions how he would've incorporated the "vocals" of Psychedelic Sounds into "The Elements". We know that "Fire" was an instrumental, Brian specifically mentioned in the Preiss book that "Air" was a piano piece, and there were reports of Michael Vosse being commissioned to record "water sounds". So, that would result in three of the four elements segments being "instrumental". Yes, there is the possibility of the various chants of Psychedelic Sounds being "element-related", and the possibility of the chants being recorded OVER the instrumental track, much like Darian did on BWPS with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Speaking of BWPS, and not to open that can of worms (pun intended), but Darian had the chance to employ chants for an "Elements" track on BWPS - and didn't.

Just as Fire has vocal "oos" couldn't this Air piano (if that's what it was) have breathing overdubs? When I refer to Undersea Chant I'm not talking about the "fish fish underwater SHARK!" chant, but the extremely atmospheric recording where they imitate fish, that literally sounds as though you're on the ocean floor. It's possible those water sounds could have been overdubs for that, or gathered for inspiration. In any case, UC exists and Vosses recordings don't. So when it comes to reconstruction that's the most plausible piece we have.

Absolutely...no argument here. It was certainly possible. And, as I posted above yesterday, now would a great time for some of the talented "mixers" on this board to give it a shot and record an "Elements" track using whatever snippets are out there. It would be fascinating to hear.

Well I've done one using the four most likely (out of what we have) pieces--Fire, UC, Breathing and then Veggies as a separate track. I made another one out of Fire, Water Chant, Workshop and Breathing which transitioned into Wind Chimes. Maybe someone could do that, but have the fade of Wind Chimes be part of Air and play along with Breathing and transitioning to WC proper. Not sure what else there is to do. Even if you believe in Dada and WC and a four song suite, it's been done.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't understand why some people can't make the connection between the elements we don't have and the material recorded there. I get it if someone isn't a fan of the spoken word humor idea, but to argue for Wind Chimes and Dada over Breathing and Undersea Chant is baffling to me.

I put some weight on Psychedelic Sounds. I believe that Brian recorded just about everything he thought of during that time, and, everything he recorded he intended for SMiLE - in some form - even if for a brief, fleeting moment.

That being said, I still have questions how he would've incorporated the "vocals" of Psychedelic Sounds into "The Elements". We know that "Fire" was an instrumental, Brian specifically mentioned in the Preiss book that "Air" was a piano piece, and there were reports of Michael Vosse being commissioned to record "water sounds". So, that would result in three of the four elements segments being "instrumental". Yes, there is the possibility of the various chants of Psychedelic Sounds being "element-related", and the possibility of the chants being recorded OVER the instrumental track, much like Darian did on BWPS with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Speaking of BWPS, and not to open that can of worms (pun intended), but Darian had the chance to employ chants for an "Elements" track on BWPS - and didn't.

Just as Fire has vocal "oos" couldn't this Air piano (if that's what it was) have breathing overdubs? When I refer to Undersea Chant I'm not talking about the "fish fish underwater SHARK!" chant, but the extremely atmospheric recording where they imitate fish, that literally sounds as though you're on the ocean floor. It's possible those water sounds could have been overdubs for that, or gathered for inspiration. In any case, UC exists and Vosses recordings don't. So when it comes to reconstruction that's the most plausible piece we have.

Absolutely...no argument here. It was certainly possible. And, as I posted above yesterday, now would a great time for some of the talented "mixers" on this board to give it a shot and record an "Elements" track using whatever snippets are out there. It would be fascinating to hear.

Well I've done one using the four most likely (out of what we have) pieces--Fire, UC, Breathing and then Veggies as a separate track. I made another one out of Fire, Water Chant, Workshop and Breathing which transitioned into Wind Chimes. Maybe someone could do that, but have the fade of Wind Chimes be part of Air and play along with Breathing and transitioning to WC proper. Not sure what else there is to do. Even if you believe in Dada and WC and a four song suite, it's been done.

Yes, your Romestamo "Elements" mix is quite impressive, almost operatic!

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hmm, I posted about this, the chronology of Dada on the previous page...  It didn't seem to take on a Water theme until SMile was dead.  

Yes, I read your post, and with all due respect it didn't provide any information that anyone who owns a copy of TSS or was familiar with the chronology wouldn't have already known, which is why I didn't address it.

What I'm looking for is a direct quote from somebody confirming that Dada is indeed about a baby. What I've found so far is Marilyn Wilson saying that she provided Brian with a baby bottle filled with chocolate milk as he was writing the song, and Brian saying he wrote the gist of "Cool Cool Water" in March of 1967 on the first day he moved into his Bel Air house, neither of which proves or disproves anything in regards as to whether or not it was considered to be "Water" at any given point.

We already know according to the dates you posted that he was toying around with the melody as early as December, so I think the jury is still out on this one unless someone can produce solid evidence.

Could it initially have been about a baby until March when it was re-written or fleshed out? Quite possibly! I'm just looking for more evidence.

I could just as easily say I want a quote circa '66 or '67 that it was water. Me and HolyBee brought this up, but you cant make that demand with this material because for the most part there are no definitive quotes. But essentially, you guys arguing for Dada or Wind Chimes as elements are relying on their placement in BWPS, later fanmixes/boots and Sunflower for your evidence. I used to feel the same about Veggies until HolyBee brought some legit, vintage evidence it was an element at one point to my attention. Anyway, while it definitely became Cool Cool Water and the Water element, I see no proof that was the original intention for Dada. What we have is a "feel" that Brian was prone to record more and more of from December~January on. This one, while I forgot about this dec recording Sonic brings up, nevertheless wasnt on the tracklist. What does that mean? Either a fragment, a non-starter (With Me Tonight, He Gives Speeches, Look, Holidays...one for the scrap/recycle pile) or maybe a possible standalone single or B-side, to me.

I propose that any OFFICIAL recording of an element would have been called "The Elements Part _____" on the session tape recording and tape boxes as Fire was. This was my main sticking point against Veggies, but there was enough references and quotes otherwise that I had to outweigh this barrier. But for Dada I see nothing that warrants doing so. Where is Anderle, Vosse, Brian, VDP calling Dada the element as there is for Veggies? What's "watery" about Dada? Fire is unmistakably a raging inferno, especially with the crackling effects left off in the TSS official release. Undersea Chant is unmistakably an ocean scene expressed perfectly with nothing but vocals--pure SMiLE/Brian. Breathing is undeniably airy. Veggies...eh, not so much, but again there was enough direct references to it that I can mostly let that slide. With Dada tho, taken out of context I dont think "Water!" like I do with those others. And if you say you do, I contend its only because you already have the anachronistic connection implanted because of Cool Cool Water/In Blue Hawaii, OR you're being stubborn. Similarly, the name doesn't evoke water at all. Mrs OLeary's Fire, Undersea Skit, Breathing, Vegetables....Love to Say Dada?? One of these things is not like the other. Aside from the art deco, Dada does sound like something a baby says. The wah-wah vocals sound like a baby crying. There's a cut-off third section thats supposed to sound like CIFOTM, and the vocal imitation of crying parallels THAT songs horns imitating crying. Now, you could say the Wah Wah is like them saying water. I say Brian wasnt that lazy to have his Water element just be the repetition of the word like that. Imagine if Fire was just them saying "F-F-F-Fire! F-F-F-Fire!" we wouldnt be calling that genius, it'd be lame as hell. Even these psychedelic sounds skits he did off the cuff with friends are WAY more ambitious and innovative than that. Sure its just vocals, but without a single spoken word, Undersea and Breathing convey SO MUCH and are unmistakable in what that is.

There is precedent of Elements songs spun off into their own thing...but I think that only worked with Vega-Tables because it was already nearly a complete track in its own right by itself, and it made sense outside the Elements context. Dada? If it was meant for the album in December, I'd argue even then it was probably a piece of something like Heroes or IIGS. We get it explicitly as a Heroes fragment just a month later, a setup for spoken word humor. When it comes up again, still no indication on tape or the tape labels that it's an element. By then, I'd argue the elements concept was dead anyway and any pieces that could work outside that context were up for grabs. It's my interpretation that after the two-sided Heroes didnt work, the back-up was Veggies and Dada (why he wouldnt just use Holidays or Look for the B-side is beyond me, but...)

Im totally with you about wanting more information. And if Im wrong about this like I was with Veggies, Ill happily admit so. But the evidence seems to suggest it was just a random feel Brian got that he really liked and was trying to find some way to use somehow. It undeniably became CCW/IBH eventually, but just because that happened later doesnt mean we should assume it was always that way. The fact that it was recorded relatively soon after Elements Part One and wasnt explicitly called Part Two is a big hurdle. The fact that no sources cite it as water is another. The fact that there's all these obvious elements skits and chanting on PS except Fire as guitarfool (and myself!) have been saying seems to suggest the other 3 were being worked out. There are All Day sessions on there though. IIGS too. If anything, I think that's a sign maybe All Day was part of this mysterious IIGS track, maybe this "Barnyard Suite" not Elements. In any case, I'd say the burden of proof is on you and/or anyone else to bring forth a quote proving it was Water, not the other way around. Because all evidence that's important (1966-1967 primary sources and hard evidence) doesnt support your claim.

Again this is somewhat cryptic, but since Anderle had participated in the chanting session, doesn't it stand to reason he would have had "some idea" of what earth was, had it included the vegetable chants?

Okay, granted Brian might not have been inclined to share most of his ideas with anyone other than Van Dyke (indeed, the band themselves were largely unaware of how the songs fit together according to Anderle), but Anderle does mention being made aware of water, so it stands to reason that if water had included chanting, he would logically draw the conclusion that earth did as well and thus have "some idea" as to its structure.

The reference to an "opera" is interesting too. In the past The Elements was considered by some researchers to be a purely instrumental suite, but operas by definition contain singers.

Of course all of this is total conjecture on my part based off the quote. Just throwing it out there in hopes somebody can run with it.

That's one of the things that bugs me about Veggies as Earth. Even though I support the theory now, there's still plenty of evidence against it, and this is one example. I think my compromise, of having it be Earth but come as a separate track, is really the best solution to this conundrum.

I don't understand why some people can't make the connection between the elements we don't have and the material recorded there. I get it if someone isn't a fan of the spoken word humor idea, but to argue for Wind Chimes and Dada over Breathing and Undersea Chant is baffling to me.

I put some weight on Psychedelic Sounds. I believe that Brian recorded just about everything he thought of during that time, and, everything he recorded he intended for SMiLE - in some form - even if for a brief, fleeting moment.

That being said, I still have questions how he would've incorporated the "vocals" of Psychedelic Sounds into "The Elements". We know that "Fire" was an instrumental, Brian specifically mentioned in the Preiss book that "Air" was a piano piece, and there were reports of Michael Vosse being commissioned to record "water sounds". So, that would result in three of the four elements segments being "instrumental". Yes, there is the possibility of the various chants of Psychedelic Sounds being "element-related", and the possibility of the chants being recorded OVER the instrumental track, much like Darian did on BWPS with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Speaking of BWPS, and not to open that can of worms (pun intended), but Darian had the chance to employ chants for an "Elements" track on BWPS - and didn't.

Just as Fire has vocal "oos" couldn't this Air piano (if that's what it was) have breathing overdubs? When I refer to Undersea Chant I'm not talking about the "fish fish underwater SHARK!" chant, but the extremely atmospheric recording where they imitate fish, that literally sounds as though you're on the ocean floor. It's possible those water sounds could have been overdubs for that, or gathered for inspiration. In any case, UC exists and Vosses recordings don't. So when it comes to reconstruction that's the most plausible piece we have.

Absolutely...no argument here. It was certainly possible. And, as I posted above yesterday, now would a great time for some of the talented "mixers" on this board to give it a shot and record an "Elements" track using whatever snippets are out there. It would be fascinating to hear.

Well I've done one using the four most likely (out of what we have) pieces--Fire, UC, Breathing and then Veggies as a separate track. I made another one out of Fire, Water Chant, Workshop and Breathing which transitioned into Wind Chimes. Maybe someone could do that, but have the fade of Wind Chimes be part of Air and play along with Breathing and transitioning to WC proper. Not sure what else there is to do. Even if you believe in Dada and WC and a four song suite, it's been done.

Yes, your Romestamo "Elements" mix is quite impressive, almost operatic!

Appreciate that. Thanks.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Somebody has to mix this^! Please.

Sadly it can't be done, unless "Air" were to somehow materialize. I could make a quick mix using something in its place, such as the "whispering winds" section from "Holidays".

Yeah, the "whispering winds" section would be fine, or if anybody has any other suggestions of "windy" piano pieces floating around, just for the fun of it...

Well let's think about this here...  We learned that with Vege-Tables, we can indeed have a stand alone track as one of the four elements...  What if this "unfinished piano piece" of Air is actually the Tag Remake to Wind Chimes taped 10/5/66? 

Brian says the Air piano piece was unfinished...  Well, while the mix of Wind Chimes itself was obviously finished for SMiLE, that version was never released and what was released--the Smiley Smile version of Wind Chimes--does not use that Tag Remake.  Thus, that segment was technically "never finished". 

No. We learned that the material was very fluid. Pieces of Cabin Essence and Worms getting shuffled around. Something that was almost certainly an element branching into its own thing. Come January, everything getting shuffled in and out of Heroes and Villains. But this myth of a multiple-song Elements suite needs to die a hard death as far as Im concerned. Theres no proof of that whatsoever. In fact, the tracklist we were all so keen to take seriously a few pages ago lists it as ONE SONG.

Far more believable to me there was another planned piano piece (probably with breathing overdubs?) or Brian misremembered (intentionally or not) than that Wind Chimes was an element. I accept that explanation for Veggies only because there's a lot of proof (check out me and HolyBee's debate) for it. And even with that, there's nearly as much proof even Veggies WASNT an element. Wind Chimes doesnt have even half of the evidence going for it that Veggies does. There's absolutely no way, and the only reason people are so eager to shoe-horn it in is because of Priore and BWPS.

Someone wants to recreate this piano theme with the only semi-close thing we have in their fanmix, fine. But I dont think you can take one nugget--years after the fact--from the worlds least reliable interviewee and this thread and say "ah yes, clearly the Elements was more than one song in '67. Wind Chimes is air. Case closed."

Makes sense to me. I still tend to think "Dada" might have been water based on its ultimate manifestation on Sunflower and ultimately BWPS, but the "all water" track makes for a tempting alternative. Vosse actually muddies the waters somewhat by first stating Brian wants to record a water album, but then later has him talking about an individual track composed of water sounds.

Just for the record, does anyone know where the "Dada" = song about a baby quote comes from?

Hmm, I posted about this, the chronology of Dada on the previous page...  It didn't seem to take on a Water theme until SMile was dead. 

Glad we can at least agree on Dada. But I dont understand how one could argue WC is air but then not think Dada is Water? At least Dada grew into a Watery song just a few years later by Brian's own hand. WC has nothing but a vague quote that could refer to ANYTHING and fan speculation that influenced BWPS (same as the Fire Intro and, by your own admission, Dada). Not trying to be argumentative but this just seems like inconsistent reasoning to me.

Again, thanks. (I'm just about to head out, so you can all feel relieved this will be my last effusive post for a while.) I was just thinking last night that "we had some idea of what water was going to be" (Anderle) and Vosse's comments about recording different water sounds might be connected. This bit of tape, which I had completely forgotten ever hearing, might be another clue as to the original (?) plan for "The Elements".

Conjecture: Fire (instrumental, some "crackling" FX)/Water (actual water sounds blended and cut up to create something akin to "music concrete")/Air ("a piano piece" - the much debated bio)/Earth (stripped down, largely vocal effort to close the sequence). Perhaps linked, as Mujan suggests, with "Psycodelic Sounds"-style chanting/vocal effects?

What's nice about this notion is we have two innovative instrumental pieces that nonetheless use conventional instrumentation, expansively and minimally arranged ("Fire" and "Air" respectively) interspersed with two equally avant garde sections, using non-traditional sounds ("Water") and a stripped down fragment employing SMiLE's much-referenced "humour" aspect ("Cornucopia" Veggies). Plus, the Boys being all involved in the last part means "The Elements" can be truthfully described as a Beach Boys track and not essentially a BW solo instrumental effort.

This is probably both a) total reaching and b) madness, but something about the idea tickles me regardless.

Relistened to Psychedelic Sounds the other day (not one of my favorites... sorry, I just don't buy into the whole supposed humor/spoken word element of SMile) and it occurred to be, they vocalized three of the Elements right there:  Earth (several vegetables chants), Water (several underwater and bottom of the sea chants) and Air (heavy breathing). 

This has to be more than coincidence...  What if Brian himself was not sure how to create the Elements and thus experimented with several types of audio design to create a suite of the four elements (from formal, organized music in Mrs O'Leary's Cow, to sound samples to experimental spoken word segments)? 

Or...maybe those are your other elements, albeit in rough, unfinished form? I think Undersea Chant and Breathing would've been more refined and rerecorded with the band, perhaps with some instrumental overdubs. Veggies I'd argue he was experimenting with chants and comedy to mix in there somehow.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Then why in god's name is Vege-Tables listed separately from The Elements on the tracklist if they were meant to be together!?!?!?!?

Hit single material.

I don't know but that Peter Brown bit is potentially sort of third hand or a presumption by Gaines.  Maybe not.

However, the booklet shows (as Brad Elliott once pointed out) "My Vega-tables" was a lyric of "The Elements".  Anything is possible I suppose but to me the booklet implies The Elements was self contained at the time of the booklet illustration (September 1966 according Frank's best memory) including the lyric "My vega-tables". As I remember, Frank has also said the illustration for the title "The Elements" included all four elements which to my mind also implies a single track and title for all elements at that time.

I agree in speculating that, sometime in September or October after the illustration, Brian's mind changed and The Elements became something else and Vega-tables evolved to a stand alone track.  The Elements then being Fire and then maybe not and/or possibly a discarded WC fade and/or skits and/or etc., etc......

Id argue Veggies was siphoned off because it had proper lyrics and none of the others did or would. It just doesnt fit. Even if, and I cant stress enough I dont buy this theory, but even if the Elements was four songs...Veggies in and of themselves just dont equal Earth to me. I know they grow out of the Earth, but still. It just seems a tenuous connection. If the song was more about them growing, the relationship they have to the Earth and nutrients out of the soil... but no. Instead its all comedy and hidden drug references, and with the idiosyncratic spelling, a reference to a STAR (the exact OPPOSITE of the Earth.)

I think maybe that's why it became its own thing even if it started off Earth. That makes sense why its in the booklet and PS skits, but then its own song on the tracklist and in '67.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

When it's broken down to something other than the "rebuilding after the fire" notion of what the woodworking sounds were supposed to be, it actually makes very basic, common sense that you would probably hear hammering and sawing and building on an active farm, whether they're either building or repairing a fence, a chicken coup, the barn itself...any number of things. Sometimes the most simple possibility is actually the best possibility. The fact that some of these little sections got shuffled around so much definitely doesn't make it easier to figure out, which is why having Vosse's firsthand account (since he was *there* as the whole thing first started developing) is so valuable.

Agreed. Its frustrating how Priore, fan speculation, the shoehorning of Water into Dada and H&V intro into Fire that Sheriff brought up, and BWPS' new third movement have muddied the waters so to speak. Not that there's anything wrong with alternate ideas, but it just feels like making the historical SMiLE is that much harder because of all the "repeated so much its taken as fact" misinformation, and the PR of BWPS being the finished SMiLE (which it is...just not finished as it would have been, is all Im saying.)

I just wanted to reiterate my point/wish one more time before I put it to bed - I promise.

Yes, absolutely the various articles circa 1966 and 1967 are invaluable, but they only take us so far and not all the way there. Michael Vosse mentioned that the wood sawing and hammering were part of Brian's "barnyard" and "farm concept". I appreciate him saying that, but, we kind of assumed that; that's not in question. The question remains, what was Brian going to do with these sound effects after he recorded them? On BWPS (though I put little creedence in the BWPS sequence; it's a combination of fan mixes), "Workshop" isn't even near "Barnyard" or "The Old Master Painter". What was Brian's original intention(s)? That's what I want to know.

You can literally make a multiple choice question out of it:

a) the sound effects were the building of the home of the range
b) the sound effects were the building of the cart to cart off and sell the vegetables
c) the sound effects were the re-building of the barn after the fire
d) the sound effects were the re-building of a broken heart (not sure where that one came from)
e) the sound effects were to be incorporated into a Barnyard Suite
f) Brian just thought it would be cool to record barnyard/farm sound effects not to be incorporated anywhere in particular
g) all of the above at some particular moment in the SMiLE timeline

That's why it is necessary to dig deeper and follow up on basic questions/answers. And the only way to do that is an in depth Q & A with the parties involved. Yes, I'm glad we have the magazine articles, but we need more than that!

I welcome more fan mixes if anybody would like to show their sequencing. I especially like to see what opening and closing tracks people are using, where they are placing "Good Vibrations", and if they are splitting up "Heroes And Villains" into Part 1 and Part 2 and incorporating BOTH parts.

Theyre primary sources. Theyre flawed--you have to take in account biases, what the person could or couldnt have reasonably known or witnessed, faulty memories (even within the year)--but theyre still necessary to know and understand if you want to have a clear picture on the subject. They have to be taken with a grain of salt but if you get a good witness, which I think Vosse and Anderle mostly are (better than Brian and VDP, who are in turn better than Frank Holmes or the Band members) you can gain a lot of insight only possible if you lived thru the events in question.

Id argue the Workshop effects dont necessarily have to be literal. The joke of the track itself is that the narrator in IWBA wants to mend the pieces of a broken heart, and then we get all these saws and tools presumably doing just that. It's typical goofy, not laugh out loud but makes you grin, SMiLE humor. In my mix I used it after Wonderful since the girl's heart was broken and she's building herself back up. I didnt use IWBA but that way it preserves that original humorous idea. Workshop could conceivably go after any song really, with figurative meanings in mind. I still maintain its the best candidate for Earth we have. Veggies is probably what was actually intended, but Workshop works best as part of a small instrumental piece that could conceivably fit with 3 other instrumental or a capella pieces, which is what the other 3 elements are.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I welcome more fan mixes if anybody would like to show their sequencing. I especially like to see what opening and closing tracks people are using, where they are placing "Good Vibrations", and if they are splitting up "Heroes And Villains" into Part 1 and Part 2 and incorporating BOTH parts.

Kinda, on the latter point. I operate on the basis (and I think Humble Harv/the transcription of the Durrie Parks acetates provide sufficient grounds for it) that H&V began as a much less unified song than it became in '67, and that "I'm in Great Shape" as given by the tracklist is shorthand for a medley of the excised sections. Mine, and this is just a matter of personal preference, goes "I Wanna Be Around", then about thirty seconds of "Workshop" (an inclusion based on Vosse's recollections as well as the contentious (Great Shape) session notation), then IIGS - the piano part of the first leads quite nicely into the intro of the other - and finally "Barnyard" out of the tape explosion to fade (as we know this and IIGS were together in the Nov "H&V" demo).

It functions, then, as both a standalone track named "I'm in Great Shape" and essentially an "H&V" Part Two - and, interestingly enough, a "Barnyard suite... four short pieces, we never finished that." I know Soniclovenoise has taken a similar approach, though the sequencing is a little different.

EDIT, ADDITIONAL: Mujan has suggested that "Do a Lot" (the Heroes version) could also be a contender for IIGS. It's not present in my mix because a) I tried to primarily use pieces actually tracked in '66 but mainly b) because I wasn't able to satisfyingly fit into the song. I really dig the notion though.

I agree about Heroes and IIGS. I think Heroes would've followed a verse/comedy skit/verse/comedy skit/bridge/something kinda format. We have cantina as one comedic setup, and then maybe with things like All Day he was trying to make another. IDK, and the track went through so many changes who can say? IIGS is even more mysterious and frustrating than Elements. I tried doing a mashup of tangential Heroes pieces but I didnt like it much, which is why I simply left it off my latest mix. Your sequence sounds plausible enough. I personally dont really care for the Barnyard and IWBA pieces so I never thought to try it. I must say though, we DONT know that those two pieces went together necessarily. Brian says "oh and this is another section" or something similar. It comes off like hes just playing a few random pieces he knows will be in there somewhere, but not necessarily right after the other. My impression is Cantina replaced IIGS and the Western instrumental theme (prelude to fade) replaced Barnyard. Maybe the OMP fade replaced a transition to OMP itself too, since we know that was there at one point?

I think Do A Lot fits the lyrics/theme of a track called IIGS as well as the known lyrics from that piece perfectly. But again, the current Do A Lot we have doesnt sound so good shoehorned in there. It works great as a Veggies chorus now anyway so I just leave it alone now.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

When the "psychodelic sounds" chanting session happened, Brian and those with him already knew what the "fire" element was musically. Consider that once Brian got away from the humor skits, the falling into the microphone and Good Humor and falling into the piano comedy, he focused the assembled chanters into what to my ears has always sounded like three elements.

Not true - or at least, not true according to the record as we have it. The Psycodelic Sounds session happened on 4th Nov. The "Fire" recording session happened on 28 Nov (as I posted above), almost a month later. If you have data supporting "Brian... already knew what the "fire" element was musically" on the fourth of November 1966, I'd be genuinely thrilled to learn it.  

What record as we have it states exactly when in 1966 Brian created and developed the Fire music, or even the concept that "Fire" was to be an instrumental piece? Brian and Van Dyke were working off and on that fall, some weeks doing back-to-back sessions four or more days each week, in October alone there were three weeks that were basically filled with sessions for Smile music...when was all of that written? Not recorded, but written? Some sources say "Surf's Up" was written minus some final lyrics as early as the summer of '66, yet wasn't actually taken into a recording session until November. So does that mean Brian didn't know what "Surf's Up" was conceptually until he actually recorded take 1 in the studio? Of course not.

Can we see where the logic of something like Surf's Up being written months before it first got a recording session would open up the "Fire" issue more than assuming it was conceived and written the week of or even the month of the studio session when it was recorded?

I do love it how sometimes in these discussions one sentence out of many gets pulled out, then the fact-checking machine starts cranking up, made even more confusing in this case where the discussion is centered around nothing but fantasy versions of Smile that only exist in the minds of fan-mixers, not to mention trying to find every which way to bend and shape the actual evidence that does exist from Smile (like the only tracklist that exists from 1966 which we know of) in order to fit some fantasy running order or self-styled notion of what the album was going to be or what songs were going to represent this or that. It's entertaining, at least.  

I'd suggest trying to see the forest instead of the trees, hopefully some others reading this might go back to the chants and hear something new or at least get a different take on them, perhaps a more 'elemental' take on what they were beyond stoned studio hijinks.

Unless it was a pure accident and coincidence that three of the chants were centered on the three elements that up to 2004 did not have specific music to represent them, but rather those three elements had only theories and suppositions as to what they may have been.

I mean...they do chant and riff on things related to water, air, and earth on those November '66 tapes...right? And we're trying to find any evidence of something "elemental" in songs that have no relationship at all to any elements? Hmmm.  

You raise a good point. I'd always heard Elements was an instrumental and took that as fact...but really, where IS the actual proof that was the case? Was there ever a plan to do something lyrical for Fire? Even something like more complex vocals than just the ooos we have? Has VDP ever weighed in? HolyBee showed me a quote earlier where he says "the only part of the elements i worked on was Vegetables" but did Brian want him to do more? With UC and Breathing being likely as anything to be our Air and Water it shows it was never going to be an instrumental. I've rationalized that in the past saying maybe it would be half instrumental, half a capella. But then if Veggies is an element that ruins it. It's clear, at least to me, that even the demo Veggies is a lot more complex than the other three elements. It has lead vocals, backing vocals and instruments...it just doesn't sound right with Fire as we know it and the other elemental skits. This is possibly why it was made its own song but then you have to wonder if at some point the others were meant to be more complete songs, or if there was another Earth--an instrumental or a capella--in Brian's mind? I guess going by Anderle he never got around to it or never told anyone.

And I think I get you. The point is SMiLE was ever evolving. ESPECIALLY the Elements, it seems. I still think its sensible to narrow it down to those 11~12 tracks on the cover. Specific alterations for most of those tracks are fairly negligible, although each definitely has an air of mystery about them. Worms with the new vocal melody, would Wonderful have an insert, what was the second half of Surfs Up, how would H&V be structured, would the Reconnected Telephones lyrics have been in CE, what were the verse lyrics to CIFOTM, whats this break with vocal percussion Im only just hearing about in WC? What are the other 3 sections in both the Elements/IIGS? And of course...in what order would they go, and would there be comedy bits in other songs besides Heroes like there was in Smiley and as the PS seem to suggest?

The point is there's an unbelievably fascinating and brilliant train of musical thought to sift through and discuss but no one SMiLE. Gotcha.

[Jason Penick]

Mujan, I didn't have time to read through everything you posted just now outside of the thread where you quoted me, but I wanted to quickly say thanks for taking the time to reply to my points and for not being dismissive. For the record, Dada as Water is not a hill I'm willing to die on, and I'll readily admit that it's simply a gut hunch I've had for a long time. You make a passionate case against it and I can respect that. These days I'm really more into the anything goes type of Smile reconstruction as opposed to the vintage '66 type, so I'll defer to you guys that are dedicated to following that path. If time permits, I may just for fun compile a list of all the relevant quotes surrounding the various Smile tracks to use as a reference if something like that doesn't already exist. Enjoyed your latest mix very much by the way.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Mujan, I didn't have time to read through everything you posted just now outside of the thread where you quoted me, but I wanted to quickly say thanks for taking the time to reply to my points and for not being dismissive. For the record, Dada as Water is not a hill I'm willing to die on, and I'll readily admit that it's simply a gut hunch I've had for a long time. You make a passionate case against it and I can respect that. These days I'm really more into the anything goes type of Smile reconstruction as opposed to the vintage '66 type, so I'll defer to you guys that are dedicated to following that path. If time permits, I may just for fun compile a list of all the relevant quotes surrounding the various Smile tracks to use as a reference if something like that doesn't already exist. Enjoyed your latest mix very much by the way.

Hey thanks, Im glad you dug. And yeah, I dont blame you...kinda went overboard but I wanted to reply to all the major points brought up I missed  See for me, following the vintage path actually IS anything goes, in a sense. Or at least, its presenting a wild new mix, because what's so often done (that I can see) is following BWPS, or the Priore/80s-90s speculative Americana-Elements construction which I think is inaccurate. So by presenting what I see as close to the original (keeping guitarfool's points about authenticity in mind, of course) it's also presenting something unique I havent seen done before, an Americana-Life construction, with heavy Psychedelic Sounds and Elements as one (two) track(s) as opposed to a whole side.

I do wanna get around to doing a mega-suite where everything's Heroes and Villains at some point though. Im just not sure how yet. And I'd also like to stitch together a bunch of the studio chatter in some meaningful way, but same problem. I guess since the two-suite format is the one I most believe in, its most important for me to get that right and argue WHY I believe it's right first, or at least as often as a thread comes up where I can.

[soniclovenoize]

Echo in here?    You just repeated what I wrote yesterday, chants/elements, etc... whether a coincidence or sharp minds thinking alike, check it out...you even got the Wind Chimes tag mentioned. Hmmm.

Ha!  I didn't go back and read your post till I posted mine, so I didn't see it!  Pretty silly!

Yes, I read your post, and with all due respect it didn't provide any information that anyone who owns a copy of TSS or was familiar with the chronology wouldn't have already known, which is why I didn't address it.

Gee thanks. 

[soniclovenoize]

No. We learned that the material was very fluid. Pieces of Cabin Essence and Worms getting shuffled around. Something that was almost certainly an element branching into its own thing. Come January, everything getting shuffled in and out of Heroes and Villains. But this myth of a multiple-song Elements suite needs to die a hard death as far as Im concerned. Theres no proof of that whatsoever. In fact, the tracklist we were all so keen to take seriously a few pages ago lists it as ONE SONG.

Far more believable to me there was another planned piano piece (probably with breathing overdubs?) or Brian misremembered (intentionally or not) than that Wind Chimes was an element. I accept that explanation for Veggies only because there's a lot of proof (check out me and HolyBee's debate) for it. And even with that, there's nearly as much proof even Veggies WASNT an element. Wind Chimes doesnt have even half of the evidence going for it that Veggies does. There's absolutely no way, and the only reason people are so eager to shoe-horn it in is because of Priore and BWPS.

Someone wants to recreate this piano theme with the only semi-close thing we have in their fanmix, fine. But I dont think you can take one nugget--years after the fact--from the worlds least reliable interviewee and this thread and say "ah yes, clearly the Elements was more than one song in '67. Wind Chimes is air. Case closed."

No, this has nothing to do with BWPS or Priore. 

It has to do with the song WIND Chimes being about WIND blowing through WIND chimes.