Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[JK]

BWPS works for me.

Well said, that man. :=)

[stlabc]

My current mix opens with the first two "phrases" of Our Prayer ( 20/20 version ) into what I call " laughing Gee " followed by a home brew stereo version of DYLW ( part 1 ) then into H&V from sections portion of the SMiLE Sessions set.  The remaining "phrases" of Our Prayer are used, in order, throughout the entire mix as, like Brian said "an intro(s)".  The last phrase used was modified as a nod to the Beatles Revolver LP.    

If you have a minute, I'm curious to see the whole sequence/mix.

Not sure if I can sum it up with a list.  I have spent about three years tinkering with my sequence or what I like to call it ...a re-vision.  There is a limited historical authenticity to this sequence.  I always wished Brian had more freedom to follow his vision.  No record company schedules...no budgets....no Mike...no format time restrictions...no pressure....no rules.  This was my approach.  I have created so many changes/edits/merges I cant describe them.  Surf's Up is the closer (kinda) and it uses four sources starting with the SMiLE session stereo backing track ( fiirst 16 bars ? ) then Carl's SU album version...then it segues into Brians '67 version starting at "Surf,s up, hmmm hmmm" then blends back with Carl's version at "a childrens soooong" and finishes with "a child" from BWPS layed on top.

Let me beef up my disclaimer a little.  There is NO historical authenticity to this sequence and only limited historical authenticity to other sequences.  Any similarity, vaguely or otherwise, between my sequence and the relative unknown of what Brian would have done is purely coincidental. 
This got me thinking however ......
In a world where there exists an individual who is reasonably competent ( better than me ) at audio editing and had never heard the final product of  GOOD VIBRATIONS.....how would he/she assemble the sessions material to create a final product ?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

My current mix opens with the first two "phrases" of Our Prayer ( 20/20 version ) into what I call " laughing Gee " followed by a home brew stereo version of DYLW ( part 1 ) then into H&V from sections portion of the SMiLE Sessions set.  The remaining "phrases" of Our Prayer are used, in order, throughout the entire mix as, like Brian said "an intro(s)".  The last phrase used was modified as a nod to the Beatles Revolver LP.    

If you have a minute, I'm curious to see the whole sequence/mix.

Not sure if I can sum it up with a list.  I have spent about three years tinkering with my sequence or what I like to call it ...a re-vision.  There is a limited historical authenticity to this sequence.  I always wished Brian had more freedom to follow his vision.  No record company schedules...no budgets....no Mike...no format time restrictions...no pressure....no rules.  This was my approach.  I have created so many changes/edits/merges I cant describe them.  Surf's Up is the closer (kinda) and it uses four sources starting with the SMiLE session stereo backing track ( fiirst 16 bars ? ) then Carl's SU album version...then it segues into Brians '67 version starting at "Surf,s up, hmmm hmmm" then blends back with Carl's version at "a childrens soooong" and finishes with "a child" from BWPS layed on top.

Let me beef up my disclaimer a little.  There is NO historical authenticity to this sequence and only limited historical authenticity to other sequences.  Any similarity, vaguely or otherwise, between my sequence and the relative unknown of what Brian would have done is purely coincidental. 
This got me thinking however ......
In a world where there exists an individual who is reasonably competent ( better than me ) at audio editing and had never heard the final product of  GOOD VIBRATIONS.....how would he/she assemble the sessions material to create a final product ?

When I started mixing I originally wanted to make a new GV from scratch (or close to it) using Disc 5. It can't be done. It's just the same riff over and over. That whole disc is such a useless waste

[stlabc]

My mix uses ONLY the organ/"gotta keep those" section merged into the hum-de-ah version......followed by the Whispering Winds .....PURE BLASPHEMY ! 

[Jason Penick]

Could be that Wind Chimes was one of the most finished songs in Brian's mind.  It was one of the few SMiLE tracks in which he had completely finished tracking it and made a test edit of the assembled track with all the vocals, and fairly early on in the sessions. 

I've always interpreted that list as, whomever was writing it, put the most complete or at least visualized/conceptualized songs first:
- Do You Like Worms had all it's segments in place even though no lead vocals
- Wind Chimes was in the can, as stated above
- Heroes and Villains wasn't done, but Brian knew it was the lead single so it needed to be listed
- Surf's Up was at least demo'd in completion twice
- Good Vibrations was in the can obviously
- Cabin Essence, like DYLW, had a track assembly even though no lead vocals
- Wonderful was at least conceptually mapped out even if Brian hadn't  felt he recorded the definite version of it by January

Then the compiler, possibly off the top of his head, moved on to the songs that hadn't been fully realized yet or not even properly recorded:
- I'm in Great Shape, no one really knows wtf it is!
- Child is Father of the Man, Brian was not sure how it should be assembled and lacked anything but chorus vocals
- The Elements might have only been 50% recorded at all, with Fire and possibly Water if you believe Dada was it (which wouldn't get tracked for another 4 months anyways)
- Vege-Tables was demo'd roughly, but wouldn't even be tracked formally for another 3 months
- The Old Master Painter's fade had been gutted for Heroes and Villains, leaving it unfinished ("Should I put parenthesis around it then, Brian?")

This is a good point. If you take the HWTL as gospel (which there's no reason anybody should) side A is where all the "hits" reside, whereas B is an almost random smattering of musical ideas and motifs, "Wonderful" excluded. And indeed, when the track list was drawn up that song was unfinished and about to be revised multiple times. There may well be something to this idea.

However, having followed this line-up myself for my previous mix, I think it works very well. Again, if we're talking two side-long suites, you've got all the proper songs on the first side (and track one of side two), followed by 15-20 minutes of interlocking musical ideas that taken together comprise a sort of grand finale that only Brian Wilson and VDP in their prime could have dreamed up. Of course we'll never know what it was supposed to sound like, but to me things like "Love to Say Dada", "I Wanna Be Around", "Old Master Painter" or "Holidays" make much more sense as segments of a unified conceptual whole than as stand-alone tracks with fades in between.

I've said this before, but the inclusion of what we call "False Barnyard" onto the end of "OMP/Sunshine" doesn't make a lick of sense, unless you consider that perhaps it was to be the fade to the entirety of Smile and not just to some seemingly unrelated ditty. As an album closer it works brilliantly.

We don't have much to go on, but we do know from test mixes that Brian was attempting to link up sections like this that were seemingly at odds with each other. This tells me that musical juxtaposition would have been a key element (pardon the pun), reflecting the madness of the times and the sessions themselves. However my gut assumption is that a finished Smile would have sounded quite a bit more unified and well-paced than years of fan mixes and seven-minute edits of "Heroes & Villains" might have us think otherwise.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Could be that Wind Chimes was one of the most finished songs in Brian's mind.  It was one of the few SMiLE tracks in which he had completely finished tracking it and made a test edit of the assembled track with all the vocals, and fairly early on in the sessions.  

Absolutely - my post above is just one interpretation, and I hadn't even really thought about the placement of Wind Chimes or the other tracks on that list until Mujan wrote about it. (I've always felt DYLW should open the record, for various reasons I won't go into here, but the possibility that the memo order might also back this up was a new one on me.) But I was struck - because it's not now seen as one of "big five" (H&V, SU, CE, GV, Wonderful) - by just how often and at what length both Anderle, and particularly Vosse, talked about it in their '68/'69 interviews when I first read them.

- Heroes and Villains wasn't done, but Brian knew it was the lead single so it needed to be listed

Except, if you look at the Anderle "Crawdaddy!" piece(s), the implication is that H&V was decided as the single almost by default/according to the opinion of other members of the band/creative team. He relates Brian doubting whether it should be the single on more than one occasion, and let's remember also that this was to be the only song on the album we know was originally slated for the band's traditional lead vocalist to sing.

By early '67 (and we think this memo was sent in mid-Dec, right?) it's very clear that creative efforts were being concentrated on finishing the song for single release (until being temporarily put aside to try the same with the "Vega-Tables" remake), but I think there's genuine doubt over whether this was ever Brian's intention/ideal situation before the album began to spiral out of control. Maybe the "chicken in tennis shoes" video idea suggests it, if this wasn't a Vosse/Wilson "put on", and was mooted at a time when H&V still included the full "Barnyard" section?

But Anderle, one of the top three or four folk "in the know" in '66, certainly makes the selection of Heroes as the critical lead single sound like anything but a fait accompli.

- Vege-Tables was demo'd roughly, but wouldn't even be tracked formally for another 3 months

Ah, but this depends on whether or not one believes that early VT was indeed a demo. This is a piece of nomenclature added well after the fact (early 2000s?) when the "cornucopia" tape first leaked out, "demo" being a term never used in any contemporary documentation. Mujan and I went over this at length on another thread, so I'll keep it brief, but VDP has explicitly stated that Vega-Tables was "the only part of The Elements I worked on" and since that first version was tracked in early Nov and then untouched until well into the following year, an equally valid argument is that the '66 VT was in fact a completed section of "The Elements", considered finished until March '67, when H&V was faltering and the need for a single became increasingly critical.

Not sure what real relevance this has to the overall thread, but perhaps worth noting.

- The Old Master Painter's fade had been gutted for Heroes and Villains, leaving it unfinished ("Should I put parenthesis around it then, Brian?")

Except it hadn't been in Dec, had it? Or, at least, not as far as we know (the lyric-less fade wasn't re-recorded until mid-February). Indeed, the chronology suggests YAMS began as part of the lost May '66 recording of H&V, was cut off and augmented with OMP and fade ("the big finale") to be a separate track during the sessions proper later in '66, and then only "gutted" and the fade added to Heroes during the intense "H&V single" sessions of Jan/Feb '67. So I'm not sure where it ended up in '67 has any particular relevance to a reading of the Dec '66 memo.

Not that it matters - again, just a different interpretation while we're (kinda) on the subject.

I've said this before, but the inclusion of what we call "False Barnyard" onto the end of "OMP/Sunshine" doesn't make a lick of sense, unless you consider that perhaps it was to be the fade to the entirety of Smile and not just to some seemingly unrelated ditty. As an album closer it works brilliantly.

I use it as the end of Side A, the final notes of CFTM leading directly into the opening riff of OMP. Works beautifully there too.

[Cam Mott]

My sense is by the time of "the list" Brian knew what the songs were going to be. He may have had a track order in mind too or maybe not.

My guess is lyrics were not much, if any, of a consideration with Brian as to track order how ever or whenever he arranged them.

[Jason Penick]

My sense is by the time of "the list" Brian knew what the songs were going to be. He may have had a track order in mind too or maybe not.

My guess is lyrics were not much, if any, of a consideration with Brian as to track order how ever or whenever he arranged them.

Cam, your post and the one preceding it prompted me to think about the age old argument about whether or not "Vega-Tables" was ever supposed to be part of the Elements or not. The Frank Holmes artwork and the quote from Van Dyke both seem to indicate it was, but then how to explain the track listing where "Vega-Tables" is listed as a separate track, following "The Elements"?

I see here that the initial version of Vegetables was recorded on November 11, and I'm going by the assumption that the date of Dec. '66 is accurate for the track listing.

Do you guys think it plausible that Vegetables was always the last section of the Elements, and that its placement didn't change but simply the delineation between tracks did?

In other words, say The Elements was originally Fire, "Air", "Water" and Vega-Tables. The track list might have gone like this:

Child Is Father of the Man
The Elements (consisting of all four movements)
The Old Master Painter

Brian decides he wants "Vega-Tables" to be its own thing somewhere in early December. So we get...

Child Is Father of the Man
The Elements (first three movements)
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter

...with no gaps in between.

Same music, but a different way of titling it. Make sense to anybody?

[The_Holy_Bee]

Jason - Mujan and I went over this, as we've both mentioned, at length in the TSS forum, so I'll try to avoid derailing this thread with a repeat of my arguments there! In short, Anderle says (and I am paraphrasing a little here) that "we knew what Fire was, obviously. We knew a little bit about what Water was going to be. And it kinda stopped there." I think the evidence is pretty incontrovertible (VDP's quote, as well as the booklet) that VT was, at one point, part of "The Elements". But Anderle's '68 interview seems to constitute a pretty clear argument that Air was basically undeveloped (or, at the very least, was not a known quantity like "Wind Chimes" or "Holidays") and that Water, as Anderle understood it, was likewise probably never recorded.

So where does that leave us with the tracklist? Personally, I use "The Elements: Fire" as a first track and segue into VT, using - almost certainly without historical basis - WC and SU to represent the other elements (though it's a theory which has met with some derision, I'll also note that Frank Holmes has stated there is "another element" present in his VT illustration, which does include a wall of Surf in one of the windows/photo frames). But your theory above sounds like the best currently plausible - even if it sadly means making an "accurate mix" which includes a full "Elements" track basically impossible.

A sidenote: On prompting from Williams, Anderle also reflects that the Fire session drama is "what basically destroyed 'The Elements'" and indeed was the first clear indication things with the album were going wrong. Again, not sure if that's relevant, but make of it what you will.

[Jason Penick]

Jason - Mujan and I went over this, as we've both mentioned, at length in the TSS forum, so I'll try to avoid derailing this thread with a repeat of my arguments there! In short, Anderle says (and I am paraphrasing a little here) that "we knew what Fire was, obviously. We knew a little bit about what Water was going to be. And it kinda stopped there." I think the evidence is pretty incontrovertible (VDP's quote, as well as the booklet) that VT was, at one point, part of "The Elements". But Anderle's '68 interview seems to constitute a pretty clear argument that Air was basically undeveloped (or, at the very least, was not a known quantity like "Wind Chimes" or "Holidays") and that Water, as Anderle understood it, was likewise probably never recorded.

So where does that leave us with the tracklist? Personally, I use "The Elements: Fire" as a first track and segue into VT, using - almost certainly without historical basis - WC and SU to represent the other elements (though it's a theory which has met with some derision, I'll also note that Frank Holmes has stated there is "another element" present in his VT illustration, which does include a wall of Surf in one of the windows/photo frames). But your theory above sounds like the best currently plausible - even if it sadly means making an "accurate mix" which includes a full "Elements" track basically impossible.

A sidenote: On prompting from Williams, Anderle also reflects that the Fire session drama is "what basically destroyed 'The Elements'" and indeed was the first clear indication things with the album were going wrong. Again, not sure if that's relevant, but make of it what you will.

This is great stuff. You're prompting me to pull out my copy of How Deep Is the Ocean? so I can read the full Williams/Anderle interview again.

Just a couple of response points... Regarding "Air", there's that quote from Brian (paraphrasing) "a piano piece... never recorded". Sadly there's no way to gauge how accurate that is, seeing as he also told the public the Smile tapes were burned at one point. I'm sure you know all this already, but my reason for bringing it up is that it ties into what Mujan was saying (again, paraphrasing) about how it's just as legitimate for we fans to try to figure this stuff out as it is for people working for the Beach Boys in any official capacity. There's several mysteries to Smile that will likely never be solved, and several tapes we'll doubtlessly never get to hear or that may have even been destroyed. Yet I still get a kick whenever I'm doing a mix and find two tracks that are seemingly tied together that I'd never thought to match before. Maybe 30 years from now, some enterprising individual will create the "perfect" Smile mix that flows like like a bubbling stream on a gentle summer's day, using ideas put forth by all the folks who died in the trenches trying to create unique constructions of this magical group of sessions.

Anyway where was I going with this? Well my point is that, Brian simply cannot be relied on to offer anything in the way of helpful clues. Not that I blame him. Clearly the period surrounding Smile is fraught with negative emotions for him, and he has trouble revisiting it even today. There's no crime in that; it just makes it tough for those of us with a deep desire to hear how Smile "really" goes.

Van Dyke, too, seems awfully tight-lipped when it comes to the details surrounding Smile. Even people as peripherally involved with the whole scene as Mark Volman are reluctant to discuss it. Whatever it was that went down back then has left a sour taste in the many mouths.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that in regards to "The Elements", I don't think your idea of using "Surf's Up" or "Wind Chimes" has more or less merit than any other. We simply don't know what Brian was thinking on any given day 50 years ago, but it sure seems even he himself didn't have a clear-cut vision after a certain point in time. Personally, I've always stuck with "Dada" as "Water", and I think the "some idea" David Anderle had as to what it consisted of was what we now know of as "All Day" (I know, technically listed as part of "Heroes & Villains", but tape logs have been wrong before). But again, that's just my opinion, and god knows I've been wrong before.

Man, Smile is really the conversation that just keeps on going, isn't it?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

However, having followed this line-up myself for my previous mix, I think it works very well. Again, if we're talking two side-long suites, you've got all the proper songs on the first side (and track one of side two), followed by 15-20 minutes of interlocking musical ideas that taken together comprise a sort of grand finale that only Brian Wilson and VDP in their prime could have dreamed up. Of course we'll never know what it was supposed to sound like, but to me things like "Love to Say Dada", "I Wanna Be Around", "Old Master Painter" or "Holidays" make much more sense as segments of a unified conceptual whole than as stand-alone tracks with fades in between.

The thing is, I think all the songs wouldve been "proper" by the end. The stuff that seems so formless to us now, like CIFOTM, wouldve been completed as stand alone tracks, and (IMO) just as fantastic as the "big five" some of you are mentioning. The things you mentioned wouldnt have even been on the album, which is my sticking point with your theory. Unless IWBA was part of IIGS. Even so, Dada didnt exist until late '67 when the album was already all but dead. Holidays, rightly or wrongly, is commonly thought to have been scrapped. I tend to agree with that idea. And OMP, while not the best, is a totally standalone track with a fade and everything. Im not trying to dissuade you from mixing it how you like, but it just seems unlikely to have been the intent is all. Citing songs that didnt even exist yet and could've grown to be anything (Dada--which had a lost third section resembling CIFOTM) doesnt make for a strong theory to me

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Man, Smile is really the conversation that just keeps on going, isn't it?

Yes, and I love it

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

My sense is by the time of "the list" Brian knew what the songs were going to be. He may have had a track order in mind too or maybe not.

My guess is lyrics were not much, if any, of a consideration with Brian as to track order how ever or whenever he arranged them.

Cam, your post and the one preceding it prompted me to think about the age old argument about whether or not "Vega-Tables" was ever supposed to be part of the Elements or not. The Frank Holmes artwork and the quote from Van Dyke both seem to indicate it was, but then how to explain the track listing where "Vega-Tables" is listed as a separate track, following "The Elements"?

I see here that the initial version of Vegetables was recorded on November 11, and I'm going by the assumption that the date of Dec. '66 is accurate for the track listing.

Do you guys think it plausible that Vegetables was always the last section of the Elements, and that its placement didn't change but simply the delineation between tracks did?

In other words, say The Elements was originally Fire, "Air", "Water" and Vega-Tables. The track list might have gone like this:

Child Is Father of the Man
The Elements (consisting of all four movements)
The Old Master Painter

Brian decides he wants "Vega-Tables" to be its own thing somewhere in early December. So we get...

Child Is Father of the Man
The Elements (first three movements)
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter

...with no gaps in between.

Same music, but a different way of titling it. Make sense to anybody?

Thats basically how I do it now. Elements is a 3/4ish part instrumental/acapella track. Fire, Undersea Chant, Breathing. There's a lull in the middle of the breathing skit, and in there I inserted a bit of Smog, then the laughter builds up. Hence why I say 4ish, if you count the laughter as separate from the breathing/air. And then Veggies comes in for Earth, as its own independent track.

[soniclovenoize]

Ah, but this depends on whether or not one believes that early VT was indeed a demo. This is a piece of nomenclature added well after the fact (early 2000s?) when the "cornucopia" tape first leaked out, "demo" being a term never used in any contemporary documentation. Mujan and I went over this at length on another thread, so I'll keep it brief, but VDP has explicitly stated that Vega-Tables was "the only part of The Elements I worked on" and since that first version was tracked in early Nov and then untouched until well into the following year, an equally valid argument is that the '66 VT was in fact a completed section of "The Elements", considered finished until March '67, when H&V was faltering and the need for a single became increasingly critical.

Not sure what real relevance this has to the overall thread, but perhaps worth noting.

Hmmm, interesting, I have overlooked this...  It makes sense that Vege-Tables began as the Earth segment sometime in 1966, but became it's own song definitely by April 1967, where Brian gutted the Do A Lot section of Heroes and Villains to make a chorus for the otherwise chorus-less Vege-Tables for a single. 

When was it cut from The Elements?  At least by January 1967 since Vege-Tables and The Elements get their own listing on the Handwritten list, implying they are separate entities.  Perhaps after the "failure" of Mrs O'Leary's Cow put a halt to production on The Elements in general, which spurred Vege-Tables to become it's own thing, which would have been December?

imo, the nature of the cornucopia version of Vege-Tables works as a demo, because of it's drastically simplified arrangements as compared to literally every other track for SMiLE.  Also, wasn't it just Brian and no one else?  Why no additional work put into it afterwards?  It would be well over a month before Mrs O'Leary's Cow is recorded, which was introduced as Part 1 of The Elements; if Cornucopia Vegetables was the recording proper instead of merely a demo, wouldn't Mrs O'Leary's Cow be Part 2, since it was recorded later? 

Except it hadn't been in Dec, had it? Or, at least, not as far as we know (the lyric-less fade wasn't re-recorded until mid-February). Indeed, the chronology suggests YAMS began as part of the lost May '66 recording of H&V, was cut off and augmented with OMP and fade ("the big finale") to be a separate track during the sessions proper later in '66, and then only "gutted" and the fade added to Heroes during the intense "H&V single" sessions of Jan/Feb '67. So I'm not sure where it ended up in '67 has any particular relevance to a reading of the Dec '66 memo.

Yeah, I guess we have a different interpretation...  As of 1/27/67 the most complete Heroes and Villains seems to have been Verse/Whistling Bridge/My Children Were Raised/Three Score Five.  No ending yet (and mysteriously no Cantina, even though it was recorded).  So that tells us that the OMP fade (False Barshine) was still in tact on OMP when the memo was written (I know you've said above the memo was dated Dec 66, but I've always read Jan 67).  So by February 10th, H&V needed a fade, and it was stolen from OMP.  Then 5 days later, a Prelude to that Fade was needed.  Then two weeks later, the Fade needed to be re-recorded completely (along with the verse itself, so maybe Brian was trying to restart the whole damned thing from scratch going into March?).  So there you go. 

One thing though.. The sessionology notes the My Only Sunshine lyrics for the Fade was recorded on 2/10/67...  Is this a typo?  Why would it be recorded and meant for OMP if it was to be gutted literally the same day?  Or was the vocal recorded 11/30/66, along with Part 1? 

I've said this before, but the inclusion of what we call "False Barnyard" onto the end of "OMP/Sunshine" doesn't make a lick of sense, unless you consider that perhaps it was to be the fade to the entirety of Smile and not just to some seemingly unrelated ditty. As an album closer it works brilliantly.

Agreed!  I also think it makes a fantastic end to H&V itself (Cantina version of course) so what do you do?  If SMiLE ends with OMP, then False Barshine goes there; if not, it can go back to H&V imo. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

Well my point is that, Brian simply cannot be relied on to offer anything in the way of helpful clues. Not that I blame him. Clearly the period surrounding Smile is fraught with negative emotions for him, and he has trouble revisiting it even today. There's no crime in that; it just makes it tough for those of us with a deep desire to hear how Smile "really" goes.

Van Dyke, too, seems awfully tight-lipped when it comes to the details surrounding Smile. Even people as peripherally involved with the whole scene as Mark Volman are reluctant to discuss it. Whatever it was that went down back then has left a sour taste in the many mouths.

My hope in 2004 and again in 2011 and I guess it will always be my hope until it's too late, was for Brian Wilson, Van Dyke Parks, Darian Sahanaja -  and any other musicians/journalists/friends who were present for the SMiLE sessions (and sadly they are almost all deceased) - to meet at Brian Wilson's house in nice comfy chairs with a piano in the room - and discuss just what the heck was going on in the studio in late 1966/early 1967. It's not even necessary to videotape it, just transcribe what was discussed and publish it in some form. It would be priceless!

[Jason Penick]

The things you mentioned wouldnt have even been on the album, which is my sticking point with your theory.

But you don't know that. Could "Holidays" ever have been part of the Elements, or "I Wanna Be Around" tied to "I'm in Great Shape"? We don't know, and we likely never will. I'm guessing he didn't just cut them for fun, but I guess anything is possible. Potentially they could have been auditioned and then dropped, or part of an earlier vision that was superseded.

Unless IWBA was part of IIGS. Even so, Dada didnt exist until late '67 when the album was already all but dead.

Might it have existed in the head of its creator prior to that? We have "All Day" pointing the way towards it as early as January.

Holidays, rightly or wrongly, is commonly thought to have been scrapped. I tend to agree with that idea.

Might have been, but no evidence supporting that notion other than the track listing. Could it have been intended for the Elements as it basically wound up in BWPS? Again, anything is possible until we're given definitive word from one of the creators, or other tapes emerge.

And OMP, while not the best, is a totally standalone track with a fade and everything.

I swear I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but I wouldn't call OMP as we know it a standalone track. You've got a verse from one song, and instrumental verse from another and a seemingly unrelated fade. It doesn't follow any kind of standard verse/chorus/verse song progression.

Im not trying to dissuade you from mixing it how you like, but it just seems unlikely to have been the intent is all. Citing songs that didnt even exist yet and could've grown to be anything (Dada--which had a lost third section resembling CIFOTM) doesnt make for a strong theory to me

Do you mean my theory regarding Dada as Water? Well again, who's to say what Brian had going on in his mind at the time? What's to say he didn't have the idea for the track early on and just never got around to cutting it right away? That seems to be the case with Air if Brian can be believed.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be contentious. I just wanted to address your points as I see them. Party on.

[Jason Penick]

My hope in 2004 and again in 2011 and I guess it will always be my hope until it's too late, was for Brian Wilson, Van Dyke Parks, Darian Sahanaja -  and any other musicians/journalists/friends who were present for the SMiLE sessions (and sadly they are almost all deceased) - to meet at Brian Wilson's house in nice comfy chairs with a piano in the room - and discuss just what the heck was going on in the studio in late 1966/early 1967. It's not even necessary to videotape it, just transcribe what was discussed and publish it in some form. It would be priceless!

That would be amazing, no doubt. Perhaps more realistically, maybe Brian's forthcoming bio with spill the beans. Hey, we can hope, right?

[Jason Penick]

Thats basically how I do it now. Elements is a 3/4ish part instrumental/acapella track. Fire, Undersea Chant, Breathing. There's a lull in the middle of the breathing skit, and in there I inserted a bit of Smog, then the laughter builds up. Hence why I say 4ish, if you count the laughter as separate from the breathing/air. And then Veggies comes in for Earth, as its own independent track.

I'd like to hear this. Which mix of yours is it on?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Agreed!  I also think it makes a fantastic end to H&V itself (Cantina version of course) so what do you do?  If SMiLE ends with OMP, then False Barshine goes there; if not, it can go back to H&V imo. 

It does. It used to be my preferred fade, especially when I'd leave OMP out. But now, I think there's enough decent substitutes that one can and should leave OMP alone, original fade intact. You can end H&V abruptly with either the flutter horn or tape explosion. You can use one of the 3~4 different chants to make a fade. You can use H&V intro as an outro. You can use some of the many instrumental outtakes and make a new fade that way. Thats what I did in my Aquarian mix and honestly, I love that fade so much I think I may even prefer it to the OMP one.

Well my point is that, Brian simply cannot be relied on to offer anything in the way of helpful clues. Not that I blame him. Clearly the period surrounding Smile is fraught with negative emotions for him, and he has trouble revisiting it even today. There's no crime in that; it just makes it tough for those of us with a deep desire to hear how Smile "really" goes.

Van Dyke, too, seems awfully tight-lipped when it comes to the details surrounding Smile. Even people as peripherally involved with the whole scene as Mark Volman are reluctant to discuss it. Whatever it was that went down back then has left a sour taste in the many mouths.

My hope in 2004 and again in 2011 and I guess it will always be my hope until it's too late, was for Brian Wilson, Van Dyke Parks, Darian Sahanaja -  and any other musicians/journalists/friends who were present for the SMiLE sessions (and sadly they are almost all deceased) - to meet at Brian Wilson's house in nice comfy chairs with a piano in the room - and discuss just what the heck was going on in the studio in late 1966/early 1967. It's not even necessary to videotape it, just transcribe what was discussed and publish it in some form. It would be priceless!

I want the same. There were a few nuggets in interviews for BWPS, like the third movement being totally new and Darian saying the 2nd was vintage. Some others I cant recall. But I was disgruntled how not-revelatory the TSS book memoirs were. No new insight from what I recall. I dont think Brian really remembers, it was so long ago, through a haze of mental illness and drugs, bad emotions so he's probably repressed a lot, and the damage done to his mind from Landy... I think that well is more or less dry. Darian's just an observer, same as we. He played an enormous help getting the project finished but that doesnt mean he has some special insight into the original plan. I dont think he really does, it seems to me the gang and he all just kinda looked at what was there and structured it in such a way that it would work for a live show. I have to believe VDP knows more than he's letting on tho. I think it's probably a combination of not wanting to ruin the details of what he considers Brians work, as well as wanting to put the whole thing behind him, and for him too, probably some details lost to memory (50 years is a long time.)

I'd love to have them try tho. All sit in a room, no cameras, no reporters asking the same questions for Brian to give the same canned answers to. Maybe just a hidden mic, or as you say, someone takes the role of transcriber. Just have them casually talk about it like old friends recalling old times. Maybe ask them to play some songs again on piano and see what comes back doing so, or (if it wouldnt upset Brian) listen to the old tapes. Heck, I think it'd help to have some of us uber-fans come forth and maybe offer our ideas of the music. That might jog his memory. If someone asks about what the intention of the comedy skits were, brings up the Wonderful insert, these alternate track sequences and ideas for the elements...Id have to believe Brian or VDP might have a Eureka! moment and recall a long forgotten idea they had had back then.

Sadly, with how Brian and VDP seem to avoid the subject like the plague, and their current strained relationship, I dont see this ever happening.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Thats basically how I do it now. Elements is a 3/4ish part instrumental/acapella track. Fire, Undersea Chant, Breathing. There's a lull in the middle of the breathing skit, and in there I inserted a bit of Smog, then the laughter builds up. Hence why I say 4ish, if you count the laughter as separate from the breathing/air. And then Veggies comes in for Earth, as its own independent track.

I'd like to hear this. Which mix of yours is it on?

Romestamo

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The things you mentioned wouldnt have even been on the album, which is my sticking point with your theory.

But you don't know that. Could "Holidays" ever have been part of the Elements, or "I Wanna Be Around" tied to "I'm in Great Shape"? We don't know, and we likely never will. I'm guessing he didn't just cut them for fun, but I guess anything is possible. Potentially they could have been auditioned and then dropped, or part of an earlier vision that was superseded.

Unless IWBA was part of IIGS. Even so, Dada didnt exist until late '67 when the album was already all but dead.

Might it have existed in the head of its creator prior to that? We have "All Day" pointing the way towards it as early as January.

Holidays, rightly or wrongly, is commonly thought to have been scrapped. I tend to agree with that idea.

Might have been, but no evidence supporting that notion other than the track listing. Could it have been intended for the Elements as it basically wound up in BWPS? Again, anything is possible until we're given definitive word from one of the creators, or other tapes emerge.

And OMP, while not the best, is a totally standalone track with a fade and everything.

I swear I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but I wouldn't call OMP as we know it a standalone track. You've got a verse from one song, and instrumental verse from another and a seemingly unrelated fade. It doesn't follow any kind of standard verse/chorus/verse song progression.

Im not trying to dissuade you from mixing it how you like, but it just seems unlikely to have been the intent is all. Citing songs that didnt even exist yet and could've grown to be anything (Dada--which had a lost third section resembling CIFOTM) doesnt make for a strong theory to me

Do you mean my theory regarding Dada as Water? Well again, who's to say what Brian had going on in his mind at the time? What's to say he didn't have the idea for the track early on and just never got around to cutting it right away? That seems to be the case with Air if Brian can be believed.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be contentious. I just wanted to address your points as I see them. Party on.

No, its all good man. I concede you may be right on all points but one here--OMP. You discount it, or seem inclined to, because it doesnt follow verse/chorus/verse structure. But a couple other SMiLE songs dont either. Heroes didnt until it became a single candidate. Elements wouldnt. Wonderful wouldnt. IIGS possibly wouldnt. Surfs Up. I've said in the past OMP was very fragmentary even by SMiLE standards and still think so. But I see it now as an experiment with using the modular style on old material to make something new. To see how else this modular technique might be used. Take two unrelated old standards, put them together and change the tense in the latter and you get a new idea conveyed about loss of faith in God/Christianity. Very amazing how such a simple song/idea could convey so much by doing so little I think. Really ties into the experimental modular style of the album.

It seems like it was part of Heroes in the beginning--like Dada (All Day) in January, and Great Shape apparently. But like those it spun off and became its own thing. Only different is, it did so in '66 and is thus a more probable candidate for inclusion than Dada. And unlike GS we actually know what it is.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Gang - this is fun!

Soniclovenoise, great post, thank you. Here are a few thoughts:

Hmmm, interesting, I have overlooked this...  It makes sense that Vege-Tables began as the Earth segment sometime in 1966, but became it's own song definitely by April 1967, where Brian gutted the Do A Lot section of Heroes and Villains to make a chorus for the otherwise chorus-less Vege-Tables for a single.

When was it cut from The Elements?  At least by January 1967 since Vege-Tables and The Elements get their own listing on the Handwritten list, implying they are separate entities.  Perhaps after the "failure" of Mrs O'Leary's Cow put a halt to production on The Elements in general, which spurred Vege-Tables to become it's own thing, which would have been December?

Definitely plausible. There was a lot of cannibalism happening in March/April (and, to a certain extent, Feb). In fact, I'd say there was provably much more re-recording/reshuffling/repurposing of pieces than creation/development of new ones during that period. Although this often involved pieces of other songs being moved into H&V to complete the single (DYLW's chorus, OMP's fade), when VT become the Heir Apparent A-side-wise, it seems equally likely the transferring could work the other way.

Oh - and because it'll come up later on, the memo is definitely mid-Dec. This has I believe been comprehensively confirmed (Cam Mott amongst others has written about this), plus putting its composition post-Christmas doesn't work in terms of the design/printing timetable for the cover slicks, which is essentially why it was made in the first place.

I like the notion that "Elements"/"Veggies" being separated on the list is because the whole concept for The Elements was now up in the air following the problems with "Fire". If anything, this is even clearer if you accept the mid-Dec date for the memo - only two weeks after the MOLC session, when the psychic wounds will still have been fresh but the writer may not have felt confident to scrap "The Elements" from the line-up completely.

imo, the nature of the cornucopia version of Vege-Tables works as a demo, because of it's drastically simplified arrangements as compared to literally every other track for SMiLE.  Also, wasn't it just Brian and no one else?  Why no additional work put into it afterwards?  It would be well over a month before Mrs O'Leary's Cow is recorded, which was introduced as Part 1 of The Elements; if Cornucopia Vegetables was the recording proper instead of merely a demo, wouldn't Mrs O'Leary's Cow be Part 2, since it was recorded later?  

All the BBs, plus Marilyn and Diane, are present on the track. In fact, the lead is a combo Brian/Mike. As to why no additional work on it later, my "Ockham's Razor" reply would be to say "because it was considered finished." True the sound is very different - more like the Psycodelic [sic] Sounds chants recorded by the "Vosse Posse" late at night five days later than anything else laid down during '66 - but maybe this was one of Brian's "bold new directions" (further explored, of course, on SS) of the period?

And again, an equally valid reading of the numbering of parts would be simply that "Fire" was intended to lead-off (literally be the 'First Part') of "The Elements" suite. There don't seem to be any surviving session logs/box notations for "Cornucopia" at all, so maybe somewhere in a drawer there's a faded label reading "Elements Part 4: My Vega-Tables"?

As of 1/27/67 the most complete Heroes and Villains seems to have been Verse/Whistling Bridge/My Children Were Raised/Three Score Five.  No ending yet (and mysteriously no Cantina, even though it was recorded).  So that tells us that the OMP fade (False Barshine) was still in tact on OMP when the memo was written (I know you've said above the memo was dated Dec 66, but I've always read Jan 67).  So by February 10th, H&V needed a fade, and it was stolen from OMP.  Then 5 days later, a Prelude to that Fade was needed.  Then two weeks later, the Fade needed to be re-recorded completely (along with the verse itself, so maybe Brian was trying to restart the whole damned thing from scratch going into March?).  So there you go.  

One thing though.. The sessionology notes the My Only Sunshine lyrics for the Fade was recorded on 2/10/67...  Is this a typo?  Why would it be recorded and meant for OMP if it was to be gutted literally the same day?  Or was the vocal recorded 11/30/66, along with Part 1?  

Agreed - and if, as I'm confident is the case, the memo is from December, this is actually how I'd lay out the chronology myself. In terms of the My Only Sunshine vocals taped on 10 Feb, I believe these are the wordless "oooh ah ah" backing vocal parts (I'm away from the Sessiongraphy at the moment, so would have to check, but pretty sure this is right. Also, those vocals are apparently Brian, Marilyn and Diane, no other BBs present.) The YAMS vocals proper (including the wisps of lyric in the fade) were most likely taped in '66 and survive now only on an acetate.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Well my point is that, Brian simply cannot be relied on to offer anything in the way of helpful clues. Not that I blame him. Clearly the period surrounding Smile is fraught with negative emotions for him, and he has trouble revisiting it even today. There's no crime in that; it just makes it tough for those of us with a deep desire to hear how Smile "really" goes.

Van Dyke, too, seems awfully tight-lipped when it comes to the details surrounding Smile. Even people as peripherally involved with the whole scene as Mark Volman are reluctant to discuss it. Whatever it was that went down back then has left a sour taste in the many mouths.

My hope in 2004 and again in 2011 and I guess it will always be my hope until it's too late, was for Brian Wilson, Van Dyke Parks, Darian Sahanaja -  and any other musicians/journalists/friends who were present for the SMiLE sessions (and sadly they are almost all deceased) - to meet at Brian Wilson's house in nice comfy chairs with a piano in the room - and discuss just what the heck was going on in the studio in late 1966/early 1967. It's not even necessary to videotape it, just transcribe what was discussed and publish it in some form. It would be priceless!

I want the same. There were a few nuggets in interviews for BWPS, like the third movement being totally new and Darian saying the 2nd was vintage. Some others I cant recall. But I was disgruntled how not-revelatory the TSS book memoirs were. No new insight from what I recall. I dont think Brian really remembers, it was so long ago, through a haze of mental illness and drugs, bad emotions so he's probably repressed a lot, and the damage done to his mind from Landy... I think that well is more or less dry. Darian's just an observer, same as we. He played an enormous help getting the project finished but that doesnt mean he has some special insight into the original plan. I dont think he really does, it seems to me the gang and he all just kinda looked at what was there and structured it in such a way that it would work for a live show. I have to believe VDP knows more than he's letting on tho. I think it's probably a combination of not wanting to ruin the details of what he considers Brians work, as well as wanting to put the whole thing behind him, and for him too, probably some details lost to memory (50 years is a long time.)

I'd love to have them try tho. All sit in a room, no cameras, no reporters asking the same questions for Brian to give the same canned answers to. Maybe just a hidden mic, or as you say, someone takes the role of transcriber. Just have them casually talk about it like old friends recalling old times. Maybe ask them to play some songs again on piano and see what comes back doing so, or (if it wouldnt upset Brian) listen to the old tapes. Heck, I think it'd help to have some of us uber-fans come forth and maybe offer our ideas of the music. That might jog his memory. If someone asks about what the intention of the comedy skits were, brings up the Wonderful insert, these alternate track sequences and ideas for the elements...Id have to believe Brian or VDP might have a Eureka! moment and recall a long forgotten idea they had had back then.

Sadly, with how Brian and VDP seem to avoid the subject like the plague, and their current strained relationship, I dont see this ever happening.

Darian would be my moderator - or mediator!

Carol Kaye: Hey Brian, now I wanna know. Do you remember when you recorded those hammers and saws and power drills? What was the meaning of THAT? Wasn't that the rebuilding of the barn after the fire? 

Brian: (laughing loudly) Ha ha ha

Darian: Yeah, Brian, I had heard that theory, too. Why did you record the carpenter sound effects?

Brian: OK, I'll tell you why. Do you remember that song called "Barnyard"?

Darian: (singing) "Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber". Right?

Brian: Right! That's it! Well, I wanted to record the cooks chopping lumber, but kind of give it a 1966 feel, do you know what I mean. I mean, we all know they didn't have power drills back then, right? But I thought I'd add a little humor, you know, using power drills back in the early 1900"s. Ha ha ha...

Van Dyke Parks: That's how I remember it. We sent Michael Vosse to the local hardware store to buy three or four hammers, saws, and power drills. And it turned out beautifully, right Brian?

Brian: Oh, yeah.

Case closed

Yes, I can dream.    

[The_Holy_Bee]

Brian: OK, I'll tell you why. Do you remember that song called "Barnyard"?

Darian: (singing) "Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber". Right?

Brian: Right! That's it! Well, I wanted to record the cooks chopping lumber, but kind of give it a 1966 feel, do you know what I mean. I mean, we all know they didn't have power drills back then, right? But I thought I'd add a little humor, you know, using power drills back in the early 1900"s. Ha ha ha...

Van Dyke Parks: That's how I remember it. We sent Michael Vosse to the local hardware store to buy three or four hammers, saws, and power drills. And it turned out beautifully, right Brian?

Brian: Oh, yeah.

I am already trying to convince myself this was an actual conversation that really happened. It's perfect.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Brian: OK, I'll tell you why. Do you remember that song called "Barnyard"?

Darian: (singing) "Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber". Right?

Brian: Right! That's it! Well, I wanted to record the cooks chopping lumber, but kind of give it a 1966 feel, do you know what I mean. I mean, we all know they didn't have power drills back then, right? But I thought I'd add a little humor, you know, using power drills back in the early 1900"s. Ha ha ha...

Van Dyke Parks: That's how I remember it. We sent Michael Vosse to the local hardware store to buy three or four hammers, saws, and power drills. And it turned out beautifully, right Brian?

Brian: Oh, yeah.

I am already trying to convince myself this was an actual conversation that really happened. It's perfect.

Or playing the Undersea Chant (Brian: "Oh yeah! I remember I wanted the guys to imitate water with just their voices! We kinda did something in that vein a year later." Van: "Yeah, I remember you wanted to include all these goofy skits and vocal experiments and I just thought it was all getting too weird for me")

Playing a two-suite Americana/Life structured mix (Brian: "This really takes me back...wow, that works perfectly with the vinyl format too." VDP: "The problem was we couldnt agree on where OMP, GV, and the Elements should go. And when we decided to scrap Look, the whole Second movement never quite worked right. Haha, what a mess that whole situation was!")

Playing Surf's Up with the Talking Horns overlays (Brian: "Yeah, I was trying something in that vein but it just never seemed to work exactly right" VDP: "There were gonna be some strings in there too, I think" Brian: "And a tie-into a funny scene where a guy named Gary gets trapped in a trumpet. Or something.")

On hearing the tapes for OMP (Brian: "I said that was gonna be the finale? No way!" VDP: "No, remember, Brian? The idea was we created our own bunch of classics, that would go on to become as iconic and timeless as these old standards" Brian: "That's the most pretentious thing I ever heard. Besides, Surf's Up is definitely the finale" (they erupt into an argument, which itself gives some insight into why the project never really worked out))

Hey, if you can dream, so can I!