Van Dyke Barks

[marcusb]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

If people had wanted to buy the next Beach Boys album they would have, be it in early '67 or September. H&V not making the top 10 was a good indication that the established fanbase was divided by Brian's new direction. For all it's on the surface weirdness, Good Vibrations was at it's core still a pop song. Nothing else on Smile/Smiley had that balance and sales suffered.
The hype machine in GV's wake would have undoubedly sold more copies of Smile but nothing on a huge scale.

The released H&V was a compromised version.

Though only compromised by one guy, the composer.

Sure, but it's probably not representative of what the original might have been.

[Autotune]

It'd be tough to say that Brian under-produced, under-composed, or under-sang the released H&V. Also, in its shape it is a rather cohesive patchwork (or re-recording?) of the then-extant fragments. There is no half-assed attempt at it, I think. They gave it their all and it wasn't a smash. To think that if it had had more comedic episodes, or the cantina bit or whatever it would have scored higher, is wild speculation.

I'm in the minority here who think that if Brian had turned to Mike Love as a collaborator for Smile, they would have succeeded a la Good Vibrations while still preserving Brian's more quirky or experimental edge. Those two, as collaborators were on a roll back then; and everything they put their hands on turned into gold. And the darned thing would probably have been completed.

[shadownoze]

I think it's true that Brian seems to have "seasons" with a changing group of whoever his "new best friend" is. To those listed above, you could add Tony Asher, Roger Christian, David Leaf, and others. And while Van Dyke's lyrics for Smile were a definitely cut above past BB albums, I don't think they rise to the level of genius. Clever, yes. Smart, yes. But if there's genius involved, surely he would have had other BIG successful projects since 1967. He's made a living, done some noteworthy things, but let's face it: if any random person knows VDP's name, it's because of Smile.
Furthermore, what else did Tony Asher do that is Pet Sounds-level? Why aren't top-notch musicians clamoring to collaborate with Mike Love as their lyricist?
Brian elevates the people he works with, and few of them have ever risen any higher than during their brief sojourns with him.

[JK]

I think it's true that Brian seems to have "seasons" with a changing group of whoever his "new best friend" is. To those listed above, you could add Tony Asher, Roger Christian, David Leaf, and others. And while Van Dyke's lyrics for Smile were a definitely cut above past BB albums, I don't think they rise to the level of genius. Clever, yes. Smart, yes. But if there's genius involved, surely he would have had other BIG successful projects since 1967. He's made a living, done some noteworthy things, but let's face it: if any random person knows VDP's name, it's because of Smile.
Furthermore, what else did Tony Asher do that is Pet Sounds-level? Why aren't top-notch musicians clamoring to collaborate with Mike Love as their lyricist?
Brian elevates the people he works with, and few of them have ever risen any higher than during their brief sojourns with him.

Very astute comment, sir.

[Autotune]

I think it's true that Brian seems to have "seasons" with a changing group of whoever his "new best friend" is. To those listed above, you could add Tony Asher, Roger Christian, David Leaf, and others. And while Van Dyke's lyrics for Smile were a definitely cut above past BB albums, I don't think they rise to the level of genius. Clever, yes. Smart, yes. But if there's genius involved, surely he would have had other BIG successful projects since 1967. He's made a living, done some noteworthy things, but let's face it: if any random person knows VDP's name, it's because of Smile.
Furthermore, what else did Tony Asher do that is Pet Sounds-level? Why aren't top-notch musicians clamoring to collaborate with Mike Love as their lyricist?
Brian elevates the people he works with, and few of them have ever risen any higher than during their brief sojourns with him.

You are right. In fact, I use that very same argument when people question Brian's real involvement on recent projects: go listen to the Wondermints albums, or the many works of his collaborators... They never do as good as when working with Brian. It is BW who brings the distinct quality on the table and makes his collaborators excell. I still think that others can help Brian bring out the best in him, achieve his artistic goals and reach the biggest possible audience. In the 60s, that collaborator was Michael Edward Love.

[SBonilla]

"...He's made a living, done some noteworthy things, but let's face it: if any random person knows VDP's name, it's because of Smile."

And, there are random people that associate Brian Wilson with Surfin' USA.

What does that mean? And, what does that matter?

Personally, I think Van Dyke Parks' relative anonymity, has served him well (well, maybe he could have been served more money). He has not been pigeonholed as a musician, arranger, composer, lyricist. He has much more artistic flexibility than some others of his generation. And that comes from having talent, skills and empathy.

[ontor pertawst]

He's had and is having a great career. It doesn't matter if some Beach Boys fans sneer that he's only known for SMiLE, that's an inconvenience he has to put up with from obsessives. He's worked with the best of the best and had chances to put out his own eccentric oddities that give a lot of people great pleasure, if you guys want to sniff derisively at that... shrug.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm in the minority here who think that if Brian had turned to Mike Love as a collaborator for Smile, they would have succeeded a la Good Vibrations while still preserving Brian's more quirky or experimental edge. Those two, as collaborators were on a roll back then; and everything they put their hands on turned into gold. And the darned thing would probably have been completed.

You're so right. I ache to hear what the world missed out on with what could have been Mike Love-penned lyrics on Surf's Up.

[ontor pertawst]

If only some of us here would create them.... (harp glissando)

[SMiLE Brian]

can't wait

[Autotune]

He's had and is having a great career. It doesn't matter if some Beach Boys fans sneer that he's only known for SMiLE, that's an inconvenience he has to put up with from obsessives. He's worked with the best of the best and had chances to put out his own eccentric oddities that give a lot of people great pleasure, if you guys want to sniff derisively at that... shrug.

Besides, he never makes a claim about success or sales or fame. If there is a grudge with BW, it is a personal thing.  Nevertheless, being silent is better than making those obtuse references to a guy that does nothing to him.

[Autotune]

I'm in the minority here who think that if Brian had turned to Mike Love as a collaborator for Smile, they would have succeeded a la Good Vibrations while still preserving Brian's more quirky or experimental edge. Those two, as collaborators were on a roll back then; and everything they put their hands on turned into gold. And the darned thing would probably have been completed.

You're so right. I ache to hear what the world missed out on with what could have been Mike Love-penned lyrics on Surf's Up.

Surf's Up probably wouldn't exist as we know it if Van Dyke hadn't collaborated with Brian.

But what would have Good Vibrations be like with a Van Dyke Parks lyric? Would it be the classic we praise? Would it have been a smash? Someone post a VDP lyric to Good Vibes please.

[ontor pertawst]

It wouldn't be as funny. Mike Love has more humor value than VDP, it's scientifically proven. Plus, Mike Love's moon June spooning and lyrical obsessions are way easier to parody than VDP's topsy-turvey wordplay. Give it a shot if you think you can, tho!

Nevertheless, being silent is better than making those obtuse references to a guy that does nothing to him.

Yeah, it is a bit embarrassing at times and isn't worthy of him. I wish they'd patch things up and work on one last project together, but at least VDP has some amount of wit and varies his spiteful comments from interview to interview unlike some other of BW's former collaborators.

[puni puni]

What if Carl suggested the cello and VDP suggested the triplets?

I came back just to post this.

Whenever VDP tells the story, he mentions that Jesse Ehrlich was already at the session. I never understood that key point until now. Carl is why Ehrlich was there. VDP is why Ehrlich plays. Now it makes sense.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm in the minority here who think that if Brian had turned to Mike Love as a collaborator for Smile, they would have succeeded a la Good Vibrations while still preserving Brian's more quirky or experimental edge. Those two, as collaborators were on a roll back then; and everything they put their hands on turned into gold. And the darned thing would probably have been completed.

You're so right. I ache to hear what the world missed out on with what could have been Mike Love-penned lyrics on Surf's Up.

Surf's Up probably wouldn't exist as we know it if Van Dyke hadn't collaborated with Brian.

But what would have Good Vibrations be like with a Van Dyke Parks lyric? Would it be the classic we praise? Would it have been a smash? Someone post a VDP lyric to Good Vibes please.

Surf's Up *absolutely* wouldn't exist without the VDP/Brian combo. Nor would Cabinessence.

See, the problem is that while Mike absolutely could often write a very catchy hook when called upon, and while Mike could *possibly* have helped out when it came to finishing up certain other unfinished songs in that era, the fact was that in terms of bringing stuff to the table, he unfortunately (in addition to the good catchy-writing skills) also brought a bad attitude, seeped in jealousy for being pushed aside, and to some level, closed-mindedness. Can I empathize with the pushed-aside jealousy? I can. Can I also say he probably acted regrettably in hindsight, and let emotions get in the way of how he should have best dealt with the situation? Yeah, I can (though Mike doesn't seem to ever do such). VDP seems to speak with some regret in his voice about having walked away from the project due in part to the family circumstances.  Heaven forbid Mike could do so too.

Was there room for an in-between situation where Mike could have made some esoteric material a little bit "better"? Possibly. But it's mighty tough for someone to contribute suggestions, even good ones, if they are gonna have a cocky attitude.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I still think that others can help Brian bring out the best in him, achieve his artistic goals and reach the biggest possible audience. In the 60s, that collaborator was Michael Edward Love.

I don't think it's odd to suggest that Brian's best work was Pet Sounds and Smile, and that his most creative and noteworthy artistic goals were achieved with the former. In that sense, only a few songs from that era were written with Mike. I agree with the point about audience but not necessarily the rest of it.

Also, while I do think Mike was capable of great lyrics, and while his turn-of-phrases are really overlooked, I don't necessarily think that Mike was the secret ingredient in making Beach Boys hits. What I do think is that Brian thought that Mike's lyrics worked best with one of his styles and it so happens that it was his more commercial sounding style.

[Cam Mott]

What if Carl suggested the cello and VDP suggested the triplets?

I came back just to post this.

Whenever VDP tells the story, he mentions that Jesse Ehrlich was already at the session. I never understood that key point until now. Carl is why Ehrlich was there. VDP is why Ehrlich plays. Now it makes sense.

When was cello first used in GV and when were the cello triplets first played? Was it Juneish ("Inspiration") or earlier or Septemberish? A possible problem with Carl's version in that one interview is he seems (to me) to put his suggestions at the end of the process with the finishing of the final track and recording vocals of Mike's last minute lyrics.

[guitarfool2002]

[drbeachboy]

It wouldn't be as funny. Mike Love has more humor value than VDP, it's scientifically proven. Plus, Mike Love's moon June spooning and lyrical obsessions are way easier to parody than VDP's topsy-turvey wordplay. Give it a shot if you think you can, tho!

Nevertheless, being silent is better than making those obtuse references to a guy that does nothing to him.

Yeah, it is a bit embarrassing at times and isn't worthy of him. I wish they'd patch things up and work on one last project together, but at least VDP has some amount of wit and varies his spiteful comments from interview to interview unlike some other of BW's former collaborators.

Brian would be the first to tell you; he wanted a hit after Good Vibrations. The thing is, in 1967 Top 40 was not ready for Van Dyke Parks. While most of Smile could still have lyrics by VDP, any potential songs for AM radio would have most likely done better with a Love or an Asher type lyricist.

[ontor pertawst]

Sure to sell a million units in hypothetical January! I love that music as it is so can't agree or pine for such a thing. The music wouldn't have happened like it did without VDP involved.

Tho I've heard dark, sepulchral whispers and rumors of Mike Love actually penning lyrics to "Surf's Up" and would love it if one of you archival freaks had some more information on that!

As for the barks, meows, and tweets...  I figure, VDP made "Discover America." He gets to say whatever the hell he wants, really.

[drbeachboy]

Sure to sell a million units in hypothetical January! I love that music as it is so can't agree or pine for such a thing.

As for the barks, meows, and tweets...  I figure, VDP made "Discover America." He gets to say whatever the hell he wants, really.

I love it too, but doesn't mean the masses would have. We're die-hard's, we love most anything Brian writes. To this day what do the masses love most of all? The hits! The lyricists of those hits were people who knew how to write for that audience.

[ontor pertawst]

"What's the matter? You made too much money, buddy?" - Murry

Eh, they had a nice run of hits. It was time to stretch out a bit. Things got stretched, they snapped, popped back into place decades later for a nice narrative happy ending. Worked out ok, really!

[guitarfool2002]

I just heard Brian say in an interview this weekend that the "Rubber Soul" album was the best thing he had heard. He's been consistent on that for decades, saying the concept of a full album where the whole thing was "a gas" had been an inspiration to him to follow suit, and from that came the idea of his own album, Pet Sounds. Not as much a concept album (since that term was soon to be bastardized) but an interwoven set of songs that created a certain listening experience, doing what some of the Sinatra-Riddle classics of the 50's and Miles Davis and others had done for previous generations and in other genres. This one was for "the kids", and how Brian received and perceived Rubber Soul acted as his catalyst.

He needed a collaborator who he felt could develop an album where the tracks would all connect and flow for the listeners. Not as much a hit single or two and various tracks surrounding them, but interconnected songs that flowed in the way he had heard Rubber Soul. Make this one an "album" in a more literal sense than what industry practice in the "teen" genre had been focusing on. Make it one of those where listeners who may have bought it to have the singles in the past would now buy it, put it on the turntable, and listen to the continuous flow of the songs, again as he did with Rubber Soul.

Mike had been the collaborator for some of the bigger hits, alongside Gary Usher and Roger Christian earlier. They knew the lingo, they could turn a phrase, they could deliver what Brian needed on those compositions. For Mike, it as the hit single, the turn of a phrase that could translate the music and melody into words that resonated over the radio or on a 45rpm record or jukebox. He could come up with these hooks that made for solid radio singles.

But perhaps the ability to sustain a full album that was not being done as a collection of hits in concept but rather a full album experience was something Brian perhaps wanted to go with another collaborator. There is a difference between crafting a single based on a theme and creating a killer hook in order to present that song to the audience, and sustaining an underlying thematic current that runs from song to song and exists as a greater whole in the form of an album.

And just like he went to Roger Christian for the car lingo, just like he went to Gary Usher for certain themes, just like he went with Mike to deliver that commercial hook to put the song over the top, he didn't choose any of them to work on a full album. He went with Tony, obviously, for his answer to Rubber Soul's "the whole album is a gas" notion, and went with Van Dyke for the overreaching theme and concept that was to connect Smile as an album.

The hit single in between all of this was Good Vibrations. Was it originally designed to be a standalone hit single when it was cut for Pet Sounds? Probably not. When Brian wanted some elements for this as a single, his "hit single" collaborator who could come up with a hook was involved. When it came time to write a full album's worth of material around a theme or even with an undercurrent connecting the songs, he didn't involve the collaborator who was delivering the radio hooks. Because it's not what the project was about.

And this stands out how exactly as something to speculate or opine how Smile or anything else would have been had Mike done the lyrics? It's like asking what Pet Sounds would have been if Roger Christian had done the lyrics. The material and concepts being explored perhaps were not in their respective wheelhouses, whereas hot rod lingo from Christian and crafting hooks for a hit single from Mike was their strength. And consider how many Beach Boys "albums" prior to 1966 were pure Mike-Brian collaborations on each track versus a combination of various collaborators, cover songs, Brian originals, Brian-Mike collaborations, and throwaway filler like Bull Session and Our Favorite Recording Sessions.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Is it worth pointing out that Heroes and Villains was a bigger chart hit than Wild Honey and Darlin' which came out only a few months later?

[sea of tunes]

I don't know what's up with VDP.  I often don't know exactly how to take him, so I always do so with a grain of salt.  Just when I think he's being literal, he makes a pun or a pun on a pun and that blows that all up.

I do know that Brian, while on a dais with Bill Pohlad and John Cusack, just a few short weeks ago during a Q/A said "I owe that (the appreciation nowadays of SMiLE) a little bit to my collaborator Van Dyke Parks.  Who was a genius lyricist and a great music guy.  And together we created a very special kind of music thing."