Van Dyke Barks

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

It would have been a commercial disappointment -- too arty for the mainstream, too pop for the counterculture. I can see it having become a cult hit critically, though, along the lines of 'Forever Changes'.

Much better for Brian's rep that it went unreleased, so as to develop its legend as a lost masterpiece.

I'm sorry but this myth really needs to die.

Pet Sounds went top ten and its sales were underreported by Capitol so it probably did even better. They were voted the #1 group in the world. GV was #1 and their biggest hit yet. They were just as hot as they ever were. Capitol hyped up SMiLE big time. The Brian is a genius mantra was ramping up and getting people excited. SMiLE very well could have went #1 had it come out in January as planned. It probably would have went top ten as long as it came out prior to June and was at least released neck and neck with Pepper.

I'm not sure why the "Pet Sounds flopped"/"SMiLE would have flopped" talking points are so prevalent but they have no basis in fact. Sgt Pepper is pop. I'd say even outright fluff. And it went number one and for reasons I still can't figure out, got hailed as some innovative masterpiece. SMiLE is ten times are innovative. It's also more daring, in how it tackles mature themes in an unapologetic way while seamlessly merging them with the classic Beach Boys sound.

It may not have been as impactful at the time as Pepper just because the Beatles are the Beatles. But it would have been a hit. People who appreciate great music would have respected it over Pepper. And as time wore on, it's stature would grow, similar to Pet Sounds, to where it would be hailed as the best album from 1967. Of that, I'm sure.

SMiLE not coming out in 1967 isn't good. It severely damaged Brian's confidence and the band's reputation. It robbed the musical world of a masterpiece and the counterculture of a more worthy banner to rally behind.  

Did I say that SMiLE would have flopped? I said it would have been a commercial disappointment -- a couple of weeks in the top ten, say, and not a #1, and certainly not selling "millions and millions". Sgt Pepper didn't sell millions.

Sure, the Beach Boys were hot late '66, but were they really the #1 band in the world? Talk about myths. Some UK music mag voted them the #1 vocal group, that's all.

I still feel like you're selling it short. I honestly think the blending of pop and avant garde psychedelia is SMiLE's biggest selling point. I think people would have heard it and been blown away. I was. And I didn't even like psychedelic rock then--this was my introduction to it. What got me hooked. I'm sure my experience would have been the same of many young teens in 1967. Even if it wouldn't have been multi-platinum or whatever, it still would have sold very respectably. Better than Smiley, that's for sure. Probably would have encouraged Brian to keep on experimenting which would keep the group well-loved into the Seventies and paid for itself 100x over in that regard.

The fact that the readers of a well known magazine voted them that should be indicative that they were thought highly of by and large at the time. True, just because it was in one magazine doesn't make it so...but it still says a lot. Keep in mind their biggest competition--the Beatles--hadn't released an album in awhile, had quite touring, was steeped in controversy after the "bigger than Jesus" remark and people seriously thought they were breaking up. In comparison, the BBs seemed to be on top of the world

[Ron]

I'll run my mouth a little bit.  Van Dyke strikes me as one of those guys who's so damn intelligent, but it actually gets in their way a lot.  He probably has days where he's the funniest, most charismatic guy around.  The whole intellectual world has turned into snarky, sarcastic comments and when that stuff is 'on', it's 'on' and he's probably hilarious... at times.

There's probably other days where he's 'off', and just comes across as a bitter asshole.  Several times i've seen him interject politics into conversations he's having about people; he's one of those folks that if he finds out someone believes something politically different than him, his mind closes up really quick and he loses all respect for them... and can't keep his mouth shut about it. 

I kind of feel sorry for the guy.  I imagine he truly did care about his friendship with Brian, and we all know Brian has a buffer between him and the people in his life (and for good reason)... so if for whatever reason, Van Dyke has been shut out of Brian's life that's probably pretty painful although he may never admit it.  So now he's doing childish stuff like posting crazy crap on Twitter. 

[Mike's Beard]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

[puni puni]

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

The man has worked with giants like Harry Nilsson, Ringo Starr, Ryuichi Sakamoto, U2, and Robert Altman, and you think he's unhappy about the career he's had? Give me a break. VDP has always said that he enjoys sidemen roles more than being a frontman.

For the record there is a Brian interview in Harvey Kubernik's book where he credits both Carl and Van Dyke with the ideas for a cello on GV.

And here is Carl interview from 1989 from a Guitar magazine I scanned and posted here a few years ago:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/CarlWilsonp2.jpg

That's interesting. Maybe the truth is something in between.

[Fall Breaks]

What if Carl suggested the cello and VDP suggested the triplets?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

[LostArt]

Did I say that SMiLE would have flopped? I said it would have been a commercial disappointment -- a couple of weeks in the top ten, say, and not a #1, and certainly not selling "millions and millions". Sgt Pepper didn't sell millions.

From Wikipedia:
The band's eighth LP, it debuted in the UK at number one – where it stayed for 22 consecutive weeks – selling 250,000 copies during the first seven days.  American radio stations interrupted their regular scheduling, playing the album virtually non-stop – often from start to finish.  It occupied the number one position of the Billboard Top LPs in the US for 15 weeks, from 1 July to 13 October 1967.  With 2.5 million copies sold within three months of its release, Sgt. Pepper‍ '​s initial commercial success exceeded that of all previous Beatles albums.

[filledeplage]

This appears to be a follow up, but it doesn't make anything any clearer:

https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/612320604876767232

Oh, the unmitigated gall of that alliterating fool!

That would be "arse-id" alliteration...

It took a very long time to self-reveal his contempt and revulsion for this band...things have a way of "coming out in the wash."

All that pseudo Southern gentlemanly charm?

Behaving just as those late 60's and early 70's kids, who were (or thought they were) just "way too cool" and "way too smart and intellectual" for BW/BB's...

And yet, his lyrics and other works will endure...

Go figure.  I'mv very saddened at the utter immaturity of that back-handed HB to Brian...he might be happy for his friend Brian...Wow.

[filledeplage]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

Mujan - I'm one of those who "bought the album" and was not disappointed in the least.  

Disappointed in what? GV? Heroes? Wind Chimes? Wonderful? Vegetables?  We knew it was a "glimpse of something big" and at that point "incomplete" but those vocals disappointed no one. It was bona fide BB vocal work.

The larger fault lies with the lack of promotion from the record company for under promotion, starting with Pet Sounds.  

Unfortunately the "word of mouth" was confined to concert attendees, who were wondering out loud as to when the "rest of this little treasure" would be released...before the World Wide Web of networked fans.  For those of us who bought Smiley, the ultimate release of the Sessions was well worth the wait.  We are generally, a "patient lot."

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

Mujan - I'm one of those who "bought the album" and was not disappointed in the least.  

Disappointed in what? GV? Heroes? Wind Chimes? Wonderful? Vegetables?  We knew it was a "glimpse of something big" and at that point "incomplete" but those vocals disappointed no one. It was bona fide BB vocal work.

The larger fault lies with the lack of promotion from the record company for under promotion, starting with Pet Sounds.  

Unfortunately the "word of mouth" was confined to concert attendees, who were wondering out loud as to when the "rest of this little treasure" would be released...before the World Wide Web of networked fans.  For those of us who bought Smiley, the ultimate release of the Sessions was well worth the wait.  We are generally, a "patient lot."

Youre misinterpreting me I think. I dont dislike Smiley, but Im quite sure a lot of people did at the time. GV and H&V would not have helped sales. By then GV was old news and anyone who wanted one had a copy. H&V underperformed.

[filledeplage]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

Mujan - I'm one of those who "bought the album" and was not disappointed in the least.  

Disappointed in what? GV? Heroes? Wind Chimes? Wonderful? Vegetables?  We knew it was a "glimpse of something big" and at that point "incomplete" but those vocals disappointed no one. It was bona fide BB vocal work.

The larger fault lies with the lack of promotion from the record company for under promotion, starting with Pet Sounds.  

Unfortunately the "word of mouth" was confined to concert attendees, who were wondering out loud as to when the "rest of this little treasure" would be released...before the World Wide Web of networked fans.  For those of us who bought Smiley, the ultimate release of the Sessions was well worth the wait.  We are generally, a "patient lot."

Youre misinterpreting me I think. I dont dislike Smiley, but Im quite sure a lot of people did at the time. GV and H&V would not have helped sales. By then GV was old news and anyone who wanted one had a copy. H&V underperformed.

Nah! You can't jump into the "Smile way-back" machine and know what people were thinking.  Or infer from a wiki page, what the context and dynamic was...

Smile (and smiley by incorporation) was "telling a story" and maybe not unlike an opera telling a story...we didn't know what the story was...people reserved judgment until they got more, which happened incrementally, eg. 20/20, Surf's Up, GV box set...we heard these "mysterious" tracks, not really knowing (except for Surf's Up) that they belonged to Smile.  

 

[SenorPotatoHead]

I must say, I often tire of the Brian coddling that goes on.  He went through a tremendous amount, yes, and I feel for him just as much as anyone, but I also feel that because of his tremendous gifts (which really are/were super tremendous, obviously) he is almost universally given a pass and his his own repugnant behavior at times in his life is excused and/or skirted.  
Derek Taylor made comments about some of the ways in which Brian behaved during his tenure with the band, and it gives the impression of an overgrown, spoiled child.   Mozart may have been amazingly talented, but he was also probably a childish pain in the a** much of the time to those who knew him.  This could be true of Brian (and quite frankly, may be true for many of us, me included - everyone has their foibles at times).   I'm not trying to bait anyone's ire here, but the reality is that Van Dyke, and others (even Ol' Mr. Love) probably have quite legitimate beefs, and were/are genuinely hurt by many of the ways Brian behaved/behaves.   I don't know any of these people at all, so I really can't say, but all I am saying is that everyone is human and no matter how amazingly talented one is, perhaps they too have some amends to make?  

(ducks head and runs like hell)

[Cyncie]

I must say, I often tire of the Brian coddling that goes on.  He went through a tremendous amount, yes, and I feel for him just as much as anyone, but I also feel that because of his tremendous gifts (which really are/were super tremendous, obviously) he is almost universally given a pass and his his own repugnant behavior at times in his life is excused and/or skirted.  
Derek Taylor made comments about some of the ways in which Brian behaved during his tenure with the band, and it gives the impression of an overgrown, spoiled child.   Mozart may have been amazingly talented, but he was also probably a childish pain in the a** much of the time to those who knew him.  This could be true of Brian (and quite frankly, may be true for many of us, me included - everyone has their foibles at times).   I'm not trying to bait anyone's ire here, but the reality is that Van Dyke, and others (even Ol' Mr. Love) probably have quite legitimate beefs, and were/are genuinely hurt by many of the ways Brian behaved/behaves.   I don't know any of these people at all, so I really can't say, but all I am saying is that everyone is human and no matter how amazingly talented one is, perhaps they too have some amends to make?  

(ducks head and runs like hell)

Absolutely, there's always two sides to every story. But, to me, this is about public context. It's understandable that there may be long standing issues to resolve. But, those should be privately held and privately resolved without resorting to sly put downs in the media. Mike and Van Dyke constantly take public cheap shots at Brian. Meanwhile, Brian takes the high road and compliments them in every interview. Brian may have behaved like a spoiled child in the past, but the ones making catty comments in interviews and on Twitter are the ones who are now looking like 13 year old drama queens.

[SenorPotatoHead]

Absolutely, there's always two sides to every story. But, to me, this is about public context. It's understandable that there may be long standing issues to resolve. But, those should be privately held and privately resolved without resorting to sly put downs in the media. Mike and Van Dyke constantly take public cheap shots at Brian. Meanwhile, Brian takes the high road and compliments them in every interview. Brian may have behaved like a spoiled child in the past, but the ones making catty comments in interviews and on Twitter are the ones who are now looking like 13 year old drama queens.

Yes, very good point.  True, true, true.   

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I must say, I often tire of the Brian coddling that goes on.  He went through a tremendous amount, yes, and I feel for him just as much as anyone, but I also feel that because of his tremendous gifts (which really are/were super tremendous, obviously) he is almost universally given a pass and his his own repugnant behavior at times in his life is excused and/or skirted.  
Derek Taylor made comments about some of the ways in which Brian behaved during his tenure with the band, and it gives the impression of an overgrown, spoiled child.   Mozart may have been amazingly talented, but he was also probably a childish pain in the a** much of the time to those who knew him.  This could be true of Brian (and quite frankly, may be true for many of us, me included - everyone has their foibles at times).   I'm not trying to bait anyone's ire here, but the reality is that Van Dyke, and others (even Ol' Mr. Love) probably have quite legitimate beefs, and were/are genuinely hurt by many of the ways Brian behaved/behaves.   I don't know any of these people at all, so I really can't say, but all I am saying is that everyone is human and no matter how amazingly talented one is, perhaps they too have some amends to make?  

(ducks head and runs like hell)

Absolutely, there's always two sides to every story. But, to me, this is about public context. It's understandable that there may be long standing issues to resolve. But, those should be privately held and privately resolved without resorting to sly put downs in the media. Mike and Van Dyke constantly take public cheap shots at Brian. Meanwhile, Brian takes the high road and compliments them in every interview. Brian may have behaved like a spoiled child in the past, but the ones making catty comments in interviews and on Twitter are the ones who are now looking like 13 year old drama queens.

Exactly. Its not the fact that they had a falling out that people are blaming Van and Mike for. Its how theyve dealt with it, publically putting him down while offering nothing constructive or explaining their feelings. Like I said before, if Van feels the need to make his dislike known Id actually respect him a lot if he just flat out said what was bothering him. With Mike, I know what was/is bothering him, I completely empathize, Id feel the same way...and if he just dropped the talking points and expressed his hurt/vulnerable side about it, Id have so much more respect for him.

[filledeplage]

I must say, I often tire of the Brian coddling that goes on.  He went through a tremendous amount, yes, and I feel for him just as much as anyone, but I also feel that because of his tremendous gifts (which really are/were super tremendous, obviously) he is almost universally given a pass and his his own repugnant behavior at times in his life is excused and/or skirted.  
Derek Taylor made comments about some of the ways in which Brian behaved during his tenure with the band, and it gives the impression of an overgrown, spoiled child.   Mozart may have been amazingly talented, but he was also probably a childish pain in the a** much of the time to those who knew him.  This could be true of Brian (and quite frankly, may be true for many of us, me included - everyone has their foibles at times).   I'm not trying to bait anyone's ire here, but the reality is that Van Dyke, and others (even Ol' Mr. Love) probably have quite legitimate beefs, and were/are genuinely hurt by many of the ways Brian behaved/behaves.   I don't know any of these people at all, so I really can't say, but all I am saying is that everyone is human and no matter how amazingly talented one is, perhaps they too have some amends to make?  

(ducks head and runs like hell)

Absolutely, there's always two sides to every story. But, to me, this is about public context. It's understandable that there may be long standing issues to resolve. But, those should be privately held and privately resolved without resorting to sly put downs in the media. Mike and Van Dyke constantly take public cheap shots at Brian. Meanwhile, Brian takes the high road and compliments them in every interview. Brian may have behaved like a spoiled child in the past, but the ones making catty comments in interviews and on Twitter are the ones who are now looking like 13 year old drama queens.

Exactly. Its not the fact that they had a falling out that people are blaming Van and Mike for. Its how theyve dealt with it, publically putting him down while offering nothing constructive or explaining their feelings. Like I said before, if Van feels the need to make his dislike known Id actually respect him a lot if he just flat out said what was bothering him. With Mike, I know what was/is bothering him, I completely empathize, Id feel the same way...and if he just dropped the talking points and expressed his hurt/vulnerable side about it, Id have so much more respect for him.

The two sides is nonsense. The inference from that old black and white satire-altered video, as a Brian birthday greeting, for me is, "this is who you were before you met me." You were nothing till I came along.  It was condescending disrespect for the BB roots, to the whole band.  They were breaking boundaries long before VDP came on the "cool scene."

On the flip side, you can't take his body of work from him.  I like his influence in the Popeye movie, my favorite Robin Williams movie.  It has a BB feel. The kind that it appears that he disdains.  It is hard to understand the paradox.

[drbeachboy]

I think that it is no secret that Brian uses people to an extent. I say this just from what I have read over the years. Brian does not keep people in his life very long. From childhood friends, collaborators, so called friends like Danny Hutton. None of these people stay in Brian's circle very long. Even the story from 2003 with Van Dyke, where Brian calls him out the blue, they finish up lyrics, take Smile on the road. He's off and on with him through TLOS and then they're done. Shoot, Ray may be the longest ongoing friendship that he has going. There may be more that are out of the limelight, but it seems that the ones who are in the limelight are in and out of this circle of friends. I may be way off-base due to ignorance of not knowing everything about Brian, but from my observations from following Brian over the years, it just looks like a pattern. Again, just an opinion.

[petsoundsnola]

I think that it is no secret that Brian uses people to an extent. I say this just from what I have read over the years. Brian does not keep people in his life very long. From childhood friends, collaborators, so called friends like Danny Hutton. None of these people stay in Brian's circle very long. Even the story from 2003 with Van Dyke, where Brian calls him out the blue, they finish up lyrics, take Smile on the road. He's off and on with him through TLOS and then they're done. Shoot, Ray may be the longest ongoing friendship that he has going. There may be more that are out of the limelight, but it seems that the ones who are in the limelight are in and out of this circle of friends. I may be way off-base due to ignorance of not knowing everything about Brian, but from my observations from following Brian over the years, it just looks like a pattern. Again, just an opinion.

I think this is a fair observation.  From an outsider's point of view, I tend to agree.  Look at Andy Paley and Joe Thomas.  There's a period when they're in the circle and collaborating, and then we don't hear from them for a while, and then sometimes they pop back in for another project.  But in thinking about my own life and career, it's not much different.  I work on projects with people and when it's over, we move on to the next project individually and sometimes work together again when the need arises (I'm a civil engineer).

So, maybe Brian views these relationships as more of work and a task to be completed rather than a personal connection, whereas the other person may long for something deeper which may or may not materialize.

I agree, though, I'm sure there are plenty of folks we don't know about who are dear friends who have been around a long time.

[Cyncie]

I must say, I often tire of the Brian coddling that goes on.  He went through a tremendous amount, yes, and I feel for him just as much as anyone, but I also feel that because of his tremendous gifts (which really are/were super tremendous, obviously) he is almost universally given a pass and his his own repugnant behavior at times in his life is excused and/or skirted.  
Derek Taylor made comments about some of the ways in which Brian behaved during his tenure with the band, and it gives the impression of an overgrown, spoiled child.   Mozart may have been amazingly talented, but he was also probably a childish pain in the a** much of the time to those who knew him.  This could be true of Brian (and quite frankly, may be true for many of us, me included - everyone has their foibles at times).   I'm not trying to bait anyone's ire here, but the reality is that Van Dyke, and others (even Ol' Mr. Love) probably have quite legitimate beefs, and were/are genuinely hurt by many of the ways Brian behaved/behaves.   I don't know any of these people at all, so I really can't say, but all I am saying is that everyone is human and no matter how amazingly talented one is, perhaps they too have some amends to make?  

(ducks head and runs like hell)

Absolutely, there's always two sides to every story. But, to me, this is about public context. It's understandable that there may be long standing issues to resolve. But, those should be privately held and privately resolved without resorting to sly put downs in the media. Mike and Van Dyke constantly take public cheap shots at Brian. Meanwhile, Brian takes the high road and compliments them in every interview. Brian may have behaved like a spoiled child in the past, but the ones making catty comments in interviews and on Twitter are the ones who are now looking like 13 year old drama queens.

Exactly. Its not the fact that they had a falling out that people are blaming Van and Mike for. Its how theyve dealt with it, publically putting him down while offering nothing constructive or explaining their feelings. Like I said before, if Van feels the need to make his dislike known Id actually respect him a lot if he just flat out said what was bothering him. With Mike, I know what was/is bothering him, I completely empathize, Id feel the same way...and if he just dropped the talking points and expressed his hurt/vulnerable side about it, Id have so much more respect for him.

The two sides is nonsense. The inference from that old black and white satire-altered video, as a Brian birthday greeting, for me is, "this is who you were before you met me." You were nothing till I came along.  It was condescending disrespect for the BB roots, to the whole band.  They were breaking boundaries long before VDP came on the "cool scene."

On the flip side, you can't take his body of work from him.  I like his influence in the Popeye movie, my favorite Robin Williams movie.  It has a BB feel. The kind that it appears that he disdains.  It is hard to understand the paradox.

I agree. Linking to the shred video was a deliberate put down of Brian's efforts prior to meeting Van Dyke and his ilk. Unfortunately, that whole 60's LA arts scene comes across as a bunch of pretentious pseudo-intellectuals and "artistes" to me. Van Dyke included. I think his relationship with Brian likely started from a point of condescension that's become magnified as attention to Brian has escalated this year.

As to Brian's collaborators coming and going; I think that's true with most of us. When I change jobs I rarely keep in contact with those who were close working partners before, because the thing we had in common was the work. I wasn't "using" them. I was working with them. Collaborating on music is a job for Brian. Those he works with need not be close friends, as well.

[Mike's Beard]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

If people had wanted to buy the next Beach Boys album they would have, be it in early '67 or September. H&V not making the top 10 was a good indication that the established fanbase was divided by Brian's new direction. For all it's on the surface weirdness, Good Vibrations was at it's core still a pop song. Nothing else on Smile/Smiley had that balance and sales suffered.
The hype machine in GV's wake would have undoubedly sold more copies of Smile but nothing on a huge scale.

[marcusb]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

If people had wanted to buy the next Beach Boys album they would have, be it in early '67 or September. H&V not making the top 10 was a good indication that the established fanbase was divided by Brian's new direction. For all it's on the surface weirdness, Good Vibrations was at it's core still a pop song. Nothing else on Smile/Smiley had that balance and sales suffered.
The hype machine in GV's wake would have undoubedly sold more copies of Smile but nothing on a huge scale.

The released H&V was a compromised version.

[Mike's Beard]

I prefer it over any Smile sessions version. Do you honestly think a full Cantina version would have been a massive radio hit in 1966?

[marcusb]

I prefer it over any Smile sessions version. Do you honestly think a full Cantina version would have been a massive radio hit in 1966?

I'm not sure what you mean by full cantina version, but I think the Smile/BWPS arrangement of the sections is superior. Also, the smiley version has always sounded muddy to me, which doesn't help.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I prefer it over any Smile sessions version. Do you honestly think a full Cantina version would have been a massive radio hit in 1966?

I'm not sure what you mean by full cantina version, but I think the Smile/BWPS arrangement of the sections is superior. Also, the smiley version has always sounded muddy to me, which doesn't help.

Personally I've never quite understood why they arranged H&V the way they did on BWPS. But one thing is for sure is that no such arrangement would have been possible during the Smile era. Indeed, the Cantina version that Mike's Beard referenced is the closest thing we have to a Smile era version of H&V.

[drbeachboy]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

If people had wanted to buy the next Beach Boys album they would have, be it in early '67 or September. H&V not making the top 10 was a good indication that the established fanbase was divided by Brian's new direction. For all it's on the surface weirdness, Good Vibrations was at it's core still a pop song. Nothing else on Smile/Smiley had that balance and sales suffered.
The hype machine in GV's wake would have undoubedly sold more copies of Smile but nothing on a huge scale.

The released H&V was a compromised version.

Though only compromised by one guy, the composer.