SMiLE Mix #AMillion&5 (and this one includes Good Vibrations--Oh Schnizzles!!)

[Moon Dawg]

  This mix is a more stimulating listening experience than disc one of the official 2011 release. It captures both the humor and the spookiness promised by SMiLE. Have never been sold on the revisionist 3 suite format - it works, but SMiLE should end with "Surf's Up" IMO.

[rab2591]

Yes, you put that very well. It sounds like they wanted to finish the album but didn't have the guts to go all the way and make the radical changes necessary and yet were too insecure to let the fragments stand as is. Look is the perfect example. Probably one of the worst reconstructions on there. Too scared to keep it as an instrumental, yet not confident enough to really go all out and beef it up with, say, some Wonderful or more CIFOTM overdubs. So it just sounds even more unfinished than if they had just let it be. That's just one example. But yeah, overall TSS 1 lacks energy and feels forced. It's also too long and exhausting to listen to all the way through.

I have to say also that playing it safe goes against everything SMiLE was about. The original album was a massive leap from what the band was doing before. It was a huge risk, since psychedelia was not yet mainstream and wasn't the Boys' usual audience. BWPS was a huge risk, for obvious reasons. TSS disc 1 ought to have been an honest attempt at reconstructing the original album, as best can be determined. I'm sure these guys had access to many more tapes, session info and the band themselves. They could've given us something in that vein. Obviously it wouldn't ever be 100% authentic but certainly very close. Even just following the Capitol list exactly would have been interesting and unique.

I'm with Runners, that it would've bummed me out had they tried to play god (if you will) with the Smile material. I don't mind the overdubs on fan mixes, but it would be a little too much for an official release. TSS mix is probably the best thing they could've released to please the majority of fans....and because of that I don't disagree with the way they presented that material. But I completely agree about 'Truck Drivin Man', 'Barnyard', etc....shame that stuff wasn't included

If you or anyone else prefers 3-suites that's fine. Just don't tell me that's what Brian would have done. Or that just because he did it that way 36 years later for a live show that that somehow makes any other potential (and possibly more historically accurate) structure irrelevant.

Don't worry, I never said these things and I (as well as Mark and Alan - given the quotes I posted earlier) completely agree with you.

[Mr. Cohen]

Like this mix quite a bit. Great listen. The only suggestion I could think of is, perhaps, trying it out with less crossfades. That'd allow the mix to really transport you back to the '60s.

Don't get me wrong, you executed the crossfades well, it's just a very modern feel.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

  This mix is a more stimulating listening experience than disc one of the official 2011 release. It captures both the humor and the spookiness promised by SMiLE. Have never been sold on the revisionist 3 suite format - it works, but SMiLE should end with "Surf's Up" IMO.

Thanks for listening and your feedback. Just remember, labelling the sides 1 and A was to accentuate that they can be listened to in any order. You're free to download and flip them if you're so inclined. I just put 1 first because I've never seen a SMiLE mix that didn't start with the Americana songs and I wanted to try it out. I also prefer Surf's Up as the closer.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Like this mix quite a bit. Great listen. The only suggestion I could think of is, perhaps, trying it out with less crossfades. That'd allow the mix to really transport you back to the '60s.

Don't get me wrong, you executed the crossfades well, it's just a very modern feel.

Thanks for the tip, and I'm glad you enjoyed. You're right, the edits probably would have been buttends back in the sixties, and it really shows just how tough it must have been for Brian. It's easy for me to try out different things and smooth them out (by crossfading/fading in and out in general) but he couldn't. And once he cut and pasted the physical tape, that was it. This album truly was ahead of its time.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Yes, you put that very well. It sounds like they wanted to finish the album but didn't have the guts to go all the way and make the radical changes necessary and yet were too insecure to let the fragments stand as is. Look is the perfect example. Probably one of the worst reconstructions on there. Too scared to keep it as an instrumental, yet not confident enough to really go all out and beef it up with, say, some Wonderful or more CIFOTM overdubs. So it just sounds even more unfinished than if they had just let it be. That's just one example. But yeah, overall TSS 1 lacks energy and feels forced. It's also too long and exhausting to listen to all the way through.

I have to say also that playing it safe goes against everything SMiLE was about. The original album was a massive leap from what the band was doing before. It was a huge risk, since psychedelia was not yet mainstream and wasn't the Boys' usual audience. BWPS was a huge risk, for obvious reasons. TSS disc 1 ought to have been an honest attempt at reconstructing the original album, as best can be determined. I'm sure these guys had access to many more tapes, session info and the band themselves. They could've given us something in that vein. Obviously it wouldn't ever be 100% authentic but certainly very close. Even just following the Capitol list exactly would have been interesting and unique.

I'm with Runners, that it would've bummed me out had they tried to play god (if you will) with the Smile material. I don't mind the overdubs on fan mixes, but it would be a little too much for an official release. TSS mix is probably the best thing they could've released to please the majority of fans....and because of that I don't disagree with the way they presented that material. But I completely agree about 'Truck Drivin Man', 'Barnyard', etc....shame that stuff wasn't included

If you or anyone else prefers 3-suites that's fine. Just don't tell me that's what Brian would have done. Or that just because he did it that way 36 years later for a live show that that somehow makes any other potential (and possibly more historically accurate) structure irrelevant.

Don't worry, I never said these things and I (as well as Mark and Alan - given the quotes I posted earlier) completely agree with you.

I'm glad we can agree on that then, regarding the 3-suites.

You're kind of proving my earlier point though, by saying TSS did what would please most fans. I mean about the 3-suites more or less being the dominant structure for better or worse. Also, I think it's pretty undeniable that they did play God, they just didn't go far enough to justify doing so in the first place. But the changes to Great Shape, Look, Child, Wind Chimes, Fire, Dada and GV could be construed as playing God. Great Shape was incredibly badly mixed, and I've already discussed look and holidays. Child uses a structure that (I'm guessing with much certainty) doesn't follow Brian's test edit. The beginning before the piano intro is actually from the Veggies sessions if I remember correctly, and probably would not have been in the real song, let alone as the beginning. Wind Chimes probably would have only had one or two rounds of horns, and would have faded with the piano, not ended abruptly. Fire wouldn't have had that intro--I know they weren't the first to include it (actually, wasn't it Mark who did it first?) but still. Dada wouldn't have had the water chant included, and apparently there was a third section of the song said to resemble Child. So where is that? GV probably wouldn't have the "hum-be-downs" section included, though I did like this change.

[rab2591]

The 3-suite thing is nice, but it shouldn't be allowed to become the final, unquestionable word on the subject.

This was your initial point I was refuting....and I'm not at all proving it. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the 3-suite format is the dominant format. You have been adamant in saying that the 3-suite format is becoming the final/official word on the subject, which is untrue. It is stated in the boxset that TSS mix is not the official word on Smile.

Also, as for playing God....many of the edits in The Smile Sessions mix were ideas of Brian's. So for a certain amount of these edits, Mark and Alan weren't playing god, they were getting directions from god. Regardless of these edits, they don't matter as Alan himself states that the mix is not meant to represent a vintage Smile mix.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Fire wouldn't have had that intro--I know they weren't the first to include it (actually, wasn't it Mark who did it first?) but still. 

This one is most fascinating to me. Somebody (was it Mark Linett?), sometime, somewhere decides to put a "Heroes And Villains" segment before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" because he thinks it sounds cool (I don't really know the reason). Apparently Darian thought it sounded pretty good, too? And now that's the "finished" SMiLE? According to most of the interviews in 2004 anyway. "We finished it..."

[rab2591]

Fire wouldn't have had that intro--I know they weren't the first to include it (actually, wasn't it Mark who did it first?) but still. 

This one is most fascinating to me. Somebody (was it Mark Linett?), sometime, somewhere decides to put a "Heroes And Villains" segment before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" because he thinks it sounds cool (I don't really know the reason). Apparently Darian thought it sounded pretty good, too? And now that's the "finished" SMiLE? According to most of the interviews in 2004 anyway. "We finished it..."

Here's what I don't get: Pet Sounds is full of ideas from other people WHO AREN'T BRIAN. Then we get to BWPS and suddenly it's a crime for Brian to get ideas from other people? Maybe Brian said "Hey, that sounds really good, let's go with that!" - It's the way Brian has worked since the 60s (he asks for advice, or hears something he likes and puts it into his records)...this really shouldn't be anything fascinating, unless you aren't too familiar with the way Brian works.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Fire wouldn't have had that intro--I know they weren't the first to include it (actually, wasn't it Mark who did it first?) but still. 

This one is most fascinating to me. Somebody (was it Mark Linett?), sometime, somewhere decides to put a "Heroes And Villains" segment before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" because he thinks it sounds cool (I don't really know the reason). Apparently Darian thought it sounded pretty good, too? And now that's the "finished" SMiLE? According to most of the interviews in 2004 anyway. "We finished it..."

I believe it was Mark Linnett, unless I heard wrong.

Yeah, that's what I mean. BWPS is great, but with changes like that, there's no denying it is a completely different animal than whatever the sixties SMiLE would have been.

For what it's worth tho, I do think the H&V intro sounds better as part of Fire than H&V itself. And since The Elements was never, and at this point will never be finished, I think the best thing we can do is just flesh out Fire into its own standalone track, now called "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow." This is actually one of the only non-vintage ideas on BWPS that I think strengthens the material.

It's true, Brian absorbed insight from other pepeopleBut I think it's no coincidence that when he did (adding Sloop to Sounds thanks to Jardine) it usually results in the weakest parts of the respective album. Plus, there's a difference between active collaboration and a more passive "Yeah, that sounds good" type of oversight. That, and Brian wasn't trying to finish the original album in 2003. He was just trying to present the material in a live show. I strongly suspect the "We finished it" interviews was more good PR to boost sales and attract interest than Brian honestly believing he finished what he originally set out to make all those years ago. He himself has stated BWPS turned out very different than the original and is "more uplifting" than a '67 album would've been. According to the Wikipedia, he was considering a 2-suite format back in the day. To my ears, there's much more evidence for a 2-suite structure as well, and it makes the most sense with a vinyl lp anyway.

True, the booklet claims it isn't supposed to be the final word...but unless there's another release someday, it still kinda is, by default.

[rab2591]

It's true, Brian absorbed insight from other pepeopleBut I think it's no coincidence that when he did (adding Sloop to Sounds thanks to Jardine) it usually results in the weakest parts of the respective album.

What?? Listen to any given Pet Sounds session: Brian will hear one of the musicians dick around with their instrument before the take and say "Play that again," or something, and then "play that during the song here" - paraphrasing, but this is what I'm talking about. It's all over Pet Sounds. Hell, even parts of Smile; it wasn't Brian's idea to include cello's in the chorus of Good Vibrations...yet that's one of the coolest parts of the song.

Wrecking Crew members have stated that Brian was unlike any other producer, because he wouldn't treat the musicians like paid employees, but like creators. One musician stated (paraphrasing from memory) that "we didn't just play the notes, we wrote the notes"

My point being that Brian isn't afraid to use other people's ideas - his ego isn't that big. He just wanted the final product to sound beautiful. A piece of Heroes and Villains ends up in front of Fire? So what? sh*t, read a book on Smile and you'll learn that Brian would come home every night with a new acetate full of these modulated bits being pieced together in different ways.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It's true, Brian absorbed insight from other pepeopleBut I think it's no coincidence that when he did (adding Sloop to Sounds thanks to Jardine) it usually results in the weakest parts of the respective album.

What?? Listen to any given Pet Sounds session: Brian will hear one of the musicians dick around with their instrument before the take and say "Play that again," or something, and then "play that during the song here" - paraphrasing, but this is what I'm talking about. It's all over Pet Sounds. Hell, even parts of Smile; it wasn't Brian's idea to include cello's in the chorus of Good Vibrations...yet that's one of the coolest parts of the song.

Wrecking Crew members have stated that Brian was unlike any other producer, because he wouldn't treat the musicians like paid employees, but like creators. One musician stated (paraphrasing from memory) that "we didn't just play the notes, we wrote the notes"

My point being that Brian isn't afraid to use other people's ideas - his ego isn't that big. He just wanted the final product to sound beautiful. A piece of Heroes and Villains ends up in front of Fire? So what? sh*t, read a book on Smile and you'll learn that Brian would come home every night with a new acetate full of these modulated bits being pieced together in different ways.

Ah, I see what you mean now. I haven't listened to the Pet Sounds sessions even a quarter as much as the SMiLE sessions, so those aren't fresh in my mind. But now that I know what you mean, there's even a moment like that in the CIFOTM session, where the trumpet player plays the note a different way and Brian is blown away ("Thats our baby!") and thanks him, and they play it that way for the rest of the session.

I thought you meant when it came to things like track sequence. And while Sloop became part of Pet Sounds, I really don't think Brian would be as open to input of songs or sequence change suggestions from the other Beach Boys when it came to SMiLE. I think he realized that they wouldn't really get it and were too stuck in the old way to contribute to it, except singing the parts he told them to. He shuts them down immediately when somebody tries to suggest having Prayer be a standalone track. It's unclear how exactly Tones fits in, if at all. Possibly it had nothing to do with SMiLE, maybe it was to be a B-side for one of the singles, or maybe intended for the album to replace the Elements or another scrapped song. But if it was headed for the album, I think it was more out of desperation than anything. I don't think the Brian of August '66 to January '67 would have tolerated the other Boys trying to add their own songs to SMiLE. That's just my intuition, of course.

And regardless, the Brian of 2003 was a much less active/particular/reaching-for-the-stars musician than he was in his prime. I highly doubt he would have moved that Heroes bit on his own, it's just that's the way Fire had come to be since the '80s and he liked it enough to keep it that way. Nothing wrong with that, like I said I think it works better that way too. But it's still indicitive of how Priore/fan speculation was allowed to seep into BWPS, and later how BWPS was used to justify and perpetuate the misinformation/non-vintage ideas and make them Canon.

[rab2591]

I thought you meant when it came to things like track sequence. And while Sloop became part of Pet Sounds, I really don't think Brian would be as open to input of songs or sequence change suggestions from the other Beach Boys when it came to SMiLE.

Of course. Brian was more open to ideas from people who were hip to his vision. Which is why he was open to ideas from session musicians, Van, even his hipster friends whom he got opinions from.

But it's still indicitive of how Priore/fan speculation was allowed to seep into BWPS, and later how BWPS was used to justify and perpetuate the misinformation/non-vintage ideas and make them Canon.

If Brian hears an idea, likes it, utilizes it, who are we to argue?

Also, (I feel like a broken record here), there is no Canon of Smile. This is why it's most likely the most fan mixed album of all time (yes many mixes follow the 3-suite format, but again, this is because people like the format, not because they think it is vintage). It is why, yet again I say this, Mark and Alan made it quite clear that TSS mix was no way meant to be a vintage mix. Just because it is on an official release doesn't make it by default the final word...as it is written in the book that it's most definitely not the final word.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I thought you meant when it came to things like track sequence. And while Sloop became part of Pet Sounds, I really don't think Brian would be as open to input of songs or sequence change suggestions from the other Beach Boys when it came to SMiLE.

Of course. Brian was more open to ideas from people who were hip to his vision. Which is why he was open to ideas from session musicians, Van, even his hipster friends whom he got opinions from.

But it's still indicitive of how Priore/fan speculation was allowed to seep into BWPS, and later how BWPS was used to justify and perpetuate the misinformation/non-vintage ideas and make them Canon.

If Brian hears an idea, likes it, utilizes it, who are we to argue?

Also, (I feel like a broken record here), there is no Canon of Smile. This is why it's most likely the most fan mixed album of all time (yes many mixes follow the 3-suite format, but again, this is because people like the format, not because they think it is vintage). It is why, yet again I say this, Mark and Alan made it quite clear that TSS mix was no way meant to be a vintage mix. Just because it is on an official release doesn't make it by default the final word...as it is written in the book that it's most definitely not the final word.

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I prefer SMiLE mixing without letting the various outside influences which have creeped in over the years influence me, or at least acknowledging and minimizing said influence. But for even the most hardcore fans, BWPS is "good enough." Most people don't care enough to even buy/read that booklet, or put BWPS in context, or research and analyze the big picture. They hear Brian say "We finished it" see two successive releases follow the same sequence and to them, that's SMiLE. I wouldn't care if there were more varied alternatives, or if I didn't see/hear people dissing SMiLE online and in real life and subsequently dismissing it mostly because of that flawed sequence.

I think the 2-suite groupings of Heroes/Veggies/Worms/Cabin & Wonderful/Child/Chimes/Surf just...sounds right. Similar themes, similar instrumentation and similar tones and feeling. It offers the best of both the suite and simple 12 track camps, makes sense with the vinyl format itself, and evidentally is what Brian had in mind back in the day. Of course, we'll never know for certain but I think it makes for a more cohesive, flowing, and less tedious listening experience than any 3-suite take, or Priore with his forced elements side. I guess I'm biased, but I think by honestly looking at only the sessionography and old interviews, as well as just listening to the music unbiased and putting things where they sound best, this is the logical conclusion. The problem is tracks like Great Shape & Elements which could potentially work in either side, and GV & OMP which don't really work in either side but probably would have been on the album anyway. But no mix is completely without its flaws.

It's not that I'm arguing with Brian's right to do with it as he pleased in 2003, it's that I'm arguing he had a much better sequence in front of him before decades of him forgetting and fans echo-chambering their own ideas lead to the original album becoming something almost completely different. I think I've found a structure/sequence that comes fairly close to that* and I think it sounds great and ought to be heard. I'm sure someone can do a better job than me, but I'd like to give people the inspiration to do so.

*Of course, I could be way off...But weighting the evidence and going by what sounds right, I don't really think I am.

[Niko]

I don't really care about how a mix is constructed, as long as it's interesting. And sorry Mujan, but I found this mix hard to listen to.

To me, one of the most attractive things about SMiLE is the way that the different pieces can be rearranged in any order - I've always seen it as one big musical puzzle, and any fan who is savvy with some editing tools can create and post their own combinations. The music just works that way. And what you've done with this mix is, instead of using the SMilE music's natural ability for any song to follow any other song, they have been broken up by the Psychedelic Sounds. I think that immediately kills a large part of the magic of Smile. That, along with some of the strange edits overlays you did, like putting the horns underneath Surf's Up, was frustrating to me, as was the occasional moment of what sounds like sloppy editing.

I really liked your other Smile edits, and I'm looking forward to your next one. But I didn't like this.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't really care about how a mix is constructed, as long as it's interesting. And sorry Mujan, but I found this mix hard to listen to.

To me, one of the most attractive things about SMiLE is the way that the different pieces can be rearranged in any order - I've always seen it as one big musical puzzle, and any fan who is savvy with some editing tools can create and post their own combinations. The music just works that way. And what you've done with this mix is, instead of using the SMilE music's natural ability for any song to follow any other song, they have been broken up by the Psychedelic Sounds. I think that immediately kills a large part of the magic of Smile. That, along with some of the strange edits overlays you did, like putting the horns underneath Surf's Up, was frustrating to me, as was the occasional moment of what sounds like sloppy editing.

I really liked your other Smile edits, and I'm looking forward to your next one. But I didn't like this.

No need to apologize, man. I'm glad you took the time to listen and give honest input. I'm also glad you liked my other mixes too, it means a lot.

I guess...for those of us like me who have been frustrated at how Psychedelic Sounds have always been ignored this is something for us. But obviously you can't please everybody.

What are your thoughts on Psychedelic Sounds in general, if you don't mind my asking? Do you think George Fell and Vegetable Arguments would have made the cut for SMiLE at least, or no? Also, did you enjoy the groupings/suites I went with aside from the Psychedelic Sounds interludes?

[Niko]

First - since the original Smile wasn't released until after Brian rerecorded the material for BWPS, I don't really care about the accuracy of the arrangement of the music. You can make assumptions based on the information out there, which is cool and I'm sure kinda fun, but in a Smile mix, historical accuracy isn't terribly interesting to me.

I've listened through all the psychedelic sounds out there, and I think they're fun little experiments with sound, but I don't believe Brian ever intended to do anything serious with them. Since he loved comedy records, I think they would only have ever been released as individual pieces, such as a single, B-side, or even an EP. But as a part of what he wanted Smile to become? I don't think so. I see them as a kind of expansion on previous records, like the filler "Bull Session" type tracks. But Pet Sounds only had the dogs barking with the passing train closing the album, and I can imagine Brian doing something like that again with Smile - a snippet of something. But never a full track just for a psychedelic sound track.

As for the grouping of songs, it did seem a bit random to me.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

First - since the original Smile wasn't released until after Brian rerecorded the material for BWPS, I don't really care about the accuracy of the arrangement of the music. You can make assumptions based on the information out there, which is cool and I'm sure kinda fun, but in a Smile mix, historical accuracy isn't terribly interesting to me.

I've listened through all the psychedelic sounds out there, and I think they're fun little experiments with sound, but I don't believe Brian ever intended to do anything serious with them. Since he loved comedy records, I think they would only have ever been released as individual pieces, such as a single, B-side, or even an EP. But as a part of what he wanted Smile to become? I don't think so. I see them as a kind of expansion on previous records, like the filler "Bull Session" type tracks. But Pet Sounds only had the dogs barking with the passing train closing the album, and I can imagine Brian doing something like that again with Smile - a snippet of something. But never a full track just for a psychedelic sound track.

As for the grouping of songs, it did seem a bit random to me.

Huh. Well, I completely disagree...but regarding SMiLE, I guess that's bound to happen

Thanks for answering my questions. I concede that you may be right and that Psychedelic Sounds may have been just material for a "Sonny vs Wilson" or "I'm bugged at my old man" type thing. But then again, like you, I don't think there would be any filler on SMiLE. I can perhaps concede that the stuff with just the Vosse Posse wasn't going to wind up on a finished album, but where I put my foot down personally is on George Fell and Veggie Fights. I just don't believe Brian would deliberately waste Hal's and the other musicians' time. And for me personally, the Veggie Fights is the single most interesting part of that respective song. I love it!