SMiLE Mix #AMillion&5 (and this one includes Good Vibrations--Oh Schnizzles!!)

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rbcfOiCrWTE

So, this is the more historically accurate version of my Aquarian SMiLE Mix. With Aquarian, my goal was to use as much of the vintage ’66-’68 material as possible in ways that hadn’t been done before to inspire people to go against the usual 3-suite, 17~20 track, BWPS-mashups that have become the standard. With this, I wanted to preserve the stuff from Aquarian that I *think* would have been done by Brian back in the day, and take it one step further, into a full-blown attempt at a historical restoration. Now obviously, I can’t claim to know exactly what Brian was going to do, and with all the conflicting information out there, it’s impossible to be sure if the changes I went with are closer or further from the mark than anyone else. It’s all about voting with the ears, using common sense, and going by (what I judge to be) the more reliable information floating around. I’ll explain as best I can why I did what I did:

Side 1
Good Vibrations
The Elements [Fire/Water Chant/Workshop/Breathing]
Wind Chimes
Wonderful
Child is Father of the Man
Surf’s Up

Side A
Do You Dig Worms?
I’m in Great Shape
Vega-Tables
Heroes and Villains
Cabin Essence
My Only Sunshine

So first off, you’ll notice the tracks are all taken from the January setlist, but the groupings are mostly kept from Aquarian. I did not use the exact order from that setlist due to the “see label for correct playing order” disclaimer, as well as the fact that using that list exactly would make for a disjointed album with all the heavy-hitters on the first side and no thematic or musical flow. If I may say so, I think I stumbled upon something special with my 2-suite groupings in Aquarian. Voting with my ears, I’ve come to believe very strongly that H&V/Worms/VT/CE and Chimes/Wonderful/Child/Surf were meant to be together on their own sides. From there, it was just about putting the remaining songs in where they fit best. I think (and again, could be way off here) that many people have the wrong idea by making Side 2 all about the elements. The elements, as far as I can tell, was only to be a single instrumental track not a suite in itself. Wind Chimes, Veggies, Fire (which, I cannot stress enough, is the ONLY known element segment) all sound terrible when placed together. I think SMiLE would have followed a layout similar to Today! with the more somber, life/love tracks on one side, and the more bombastic Americana/dark comedy tracks on the other. The time comes out evenly this way, it accentuates the similarities in theme and instrumentation and it offers the best of both worlds by giving suites and a realistic format for a ’67 pop album. The idea to label the sides A and 1 came from an old SMiLE Shop essay I had read that did the same, in order to illustrate how open-ended and customizable the album is. For this particular video I put Side 1 first, because I’ve never seen a SMiLE Mix that didn’t begin with the Americana tracks, and why not?

The other big thing that sets this mix apart from others is the liberal use of Psychedelic Sounds between the tracks. Interviews from the time have Brian claiming that there would be a lot of spoken-word humor between the tracks. I think he recorded these skits with a purpose, mostly as a pool to pick “funny” highlights from. Something similar to Frank Zappa’s “We’re Only in It for the Money” but…before that. I tried to sample as many as possible, but had to leave out the most well-known pieces, where Brian falls into a Microphone and Piano. For everything else, a couple seconds of “highlights” linked between the songs gets the point across. But those two require a significant amount of time to get the “point” across, and I was pressed for time because I wanted to keep each Side under 22 minutes to be a realistic length for 1967.

Good Vibrations—The extended version from the boxset. I think it’s reasonable to assume Brian would’ve done something special for the album cut. I also think, with this being the only SMiLE song a January ’67 audience would know, it makes sense for it to go first. It gets everyone excited, eases them in to the even more far-out stuff on the rest of the album, and is the big commercial single. The opening comes from Basketball Sounds.

The Elements—The most open-ended song in the SMiLE Cannon. So, I don’t believe anything other than Fire was ever made for it, but I wanted to include some representation of this song. So what I did was put a few bits of info together. According to Carol Kaye, Workshop was to come after Fire on the album, and it’s about as close to an Earth instrumental as we’ll ever get. I don’t think Dada was an element back in late ’66 or January ’67, I think it was still just a Heroes segment. Even when it became a full song in March/April, I think it would’ve been just a standalone or even a child/life themed track rather than an element. The Water Chant, while recorded later than the SMiLE Era proper, probably represents the closest we’ll ever get to the water element then. Considering all this, combined with AGD’s assertion that the original idea for the elements was two modifications of two separate themes, I thought it would be interesting to try the Elements as a half instrumental/half a capella song. I used the breathing skit from Psychedelic Sounds for Air. I’m pleased with the results. No way to know if this represents the original intention for the elements, but I think it’s as close as possible given the material we have. I used the Smog skit as a lead-in to it.

Wind Chimes—I had to shorten this from the version on the boxset. I think it was meant to be this way, with the verses then horns then piano exit. I also think there was just supposed to be one or two rounds of horns, not three like in the boxset. I overlaid the laughing section of the Breathing skit onto the end as a lead in to Wonderful.

Wonderful—I debated adding some kind of “intermission” segment to this song, because I think that’s how Brian originally wanted it. I think He Gives Speeches, ‘Pretty Baby Won’t You Rock with Me, Henry’ and eventually the Veggies outro (the Smiley remake of it) were all candidates for such a section. Because of time constraints, and dissatisfaction with how they sounded, I just decided to leave this track as is. Sometimes less is more.

Child is Father of the Man—Tried to keep this shorter than the full-blown version I made for Aquarian. I’ve never heard Brian’s test edit, and if I had, I probably would’ve based this off of that. But because I’m not sure how it sounded, and the verse section sounds so bare without lyrics, I just decided to do my own thing with it. I think the piano section was supposed to come first, it has that “rising action, big buildup” feel to it that I’d expect at the intro of a song. I don’t think the section that I used as a fade-out in Aquarian was really meant for that purpose originally, so I stuck with the more abrupt ending from the boxset version. I used the Ice Cream Man skit as a lead-in because the piano in that reminded me of the one used in this.

Surf’s Up—I’ve come to loathe the Child fade, so I left that out. I don’t think it was a vintage idea, but rather a last-minute (albeit inspired) addition to salvage Child in some way, since by ’71 it was very unlikely that song would ever see the light of day. I don’t think it would’ve been done that way in ’67 though, any more than Heroes and Worms would’ve shared a chorus back then. Aside from that, all there is to do is try to fill in for the missing second section backing track. I redid the Talking Horns overdubs I tried out in Aquarian. I like this version very much, it may not be vintage but I do think it’s close. I think those Talking Horn sections represent an idea Brian was working on for this song, even if he decided against it right afterwards. I used a little of the George Fell skit to lead into this segment. I confess, the choices I made for the other Psychedelic Sounds pieces were a bit arbitrary, but I’d be willing to bet anything that George Fell was deliberately meant to lead into Surf’s Up, or else come right after it as a hidden track.

Do You Dig Worms—I got the idea to lead off the Americana songs with Worms from the Smileysmile board. Though you can’t hear it in this version, the fact that it begins with “Once upon…” and Our Prayer (which Brian called the intro to the album) fits so well with the “church of the American indian” sections really convinced me they were right. I took out the Whistle In additions because they’re not vintage Brian, but I still refuse to use BWPS, so I left the verses blank. I think it’s possible that the Bicycle Rider lyrics were to lead into the “boo-da-bah” backing lyrics as in Aquarian, so I left that change in. I think it sounds better that way. I overlaid the Taxi Cabber skit to the end to tie in with the theme of travel and transportation that plays so heavy in the song. It sets up the ‘journey across America’ plot that so many believe was Brian’s intent.

I’m in Great Shape—This, I admit, is a pretty frankensteined mess, but I do think it fits Brian’s intention for the song. As all we know of GS is a small fragment of music and a very bad recording of some cursory lyrics…this is probably the most incomplete song on the album. If it wasn’t on the Capitol tracklist, I would’ve thought Look or Holidays would be far more worthy inclusions. However…it *is* on the list. So, because the vocal recordings are gone, I improvised. I think the most likely fate this track would’ve taken is a sort of medley of H&V outtakes. So, I used what we know was GS proper, and beefed them up with the Do A Lot chorus, With Me Tonight and Swedish Frog. I think it’s likely Do A Lot was originally intended here. It has more to do with general themes of health and happiness than a silly, satirical song about Vegetables (and stoners.) I think Do A Lot was later repurposed for Veggies in the same way Bicycle Rider was repurposed from Worms into Heroes itself. Anyway, I do think Vega-Tables and Great Shape were supposed to go together on the album due to these similar themes. Further proof (at least in my eyes) that Veggies was meant for the Americana side, not any “elements side,” as some half-assed Earth element.

Vega-Tables—Aside from Great Shape, I also think this song has a lot in common with Heroes, so I put it in between those two. It shares the same health-conscious theme as the former and similar tone and instrumentation with the later. Without the Do A Lot chorus, it lost a lot of weight, so I decided to leave it short to serve as a bridge between them. I also sandwiched it between the Beets and Carrots/Big Bag of Vegetables chants and Veggie Fight skit. Like George Fell to Surf’s Up, I have absolute confidence that the Arguments with Hal were supposed to be on the album, and either before or after Vega-Tables. I overlaid the fights unto the Barnyard backing track as in Aquarian. I know many people would assume Barnyard goes with Great Shape in some way, or even H&V, but I think it sounds nice paired with Veggies. Makes sense too, that’s where they’d grow. It helps tie in the vegetables into a wider American Agricultural heritage theme.

Heroes and Villains—This was a surreal experience for sure. Usually with SMiLE Mixes the first, most pressing instinct is to beef up Heroes and Villains. And with so much extraneous material to pick from, and the obviousness of Brian’s obsession with it, no one could blame you for making a 5, 6, 8 or even 10 minute cut. But this time around, I wanted to keep things simple and as historically accurate as possible. My goal for Heroes was to come in between 3:30 and 4:30, as I believe that was Brian’s goal. Especially in ’66, just as the Capitol list was submitted, I don’t think this was meant to be the ultimate show-stopper it has since become. It was just another awesome song on the album. So that’s how I left it. I used the original intro (which has since been repurposed as the Fire Intro in just about every mix ever) and what I believe was the original plan for the ending. It’s very similar to the end of the song on the boxset version. On Disc 2, this section is known as “Prelude to Fade” implying there was more to come. While there is also a “Part One Fade” and I think Barnyard was also possibly considered for the fade, I opted not to use either of them. The former was kind of underwhelming, and the latter fits much better as part of Vega-Tables. Time constraints clinched my decision to just leave it at the flutter horn. Obviously there is no Bicycle Rider chorus—just the verses and Cantina interlude. It’s pretty bizarre to listen to such a bare bones version, but I actually think it turned out really well. Again, less is sometimes more.

Cabin Essence—I led into it with the opening lines of the Bob Gordon’s Real Trip skit, as well as a few snippets from Psychedelic Talk. I love the trip pun, and wanted a call-back to the idea of a spatial/temporal journey across America as we near the end of the Americana suite, especially since Cabin Essence also has lyrics which evoke travel. Having one of Brian’s friends name-drop Abraham Lincoln is priceless in regards to the Americana theme too. Otherwise, I just left this song as is. It’s basically the only one where we know exactly what Brian wanted, and its already been done for us.

My Only Sunshine—There’s some who think Cabin Essence was supposed to close the Americana side. When I made Aquarian, I was convinced Americana was supposed to lead in with Heroes and close with Veggies. Since I’m going by the Capitol tracklist with this mix I have to use Sunshine, and for a variety of reasons I’m about to list, it goes at the end. First of all, Brian can be heard on the sessions saying “This is the big finale” which has to mean either the end of the album or at least the side. With this mix, it can be either. Also, I feel like this song has an air of finality to it. It brings the flow to a screeching halt anywhere you place it, which makes it a detriment anywhere except at the end. Also, as a cover of two old standards it sounds out of place in the middle of the Americana suite filled with Wilson/Parks genius, however coming at the end, it feels more like a self-referential nod to the idea that our two collaborators have just created their own musical Americana that will someday be as respected and commonly known. That was a mouthful. Anyway, I used a few snippets from the Torture skit to lead into this song. I think it’s amazing how well they happened to contradict each other. I used the boxset version of the song, keeping its original fade.

So that leaves Gee, I Wanna Be Around, He Gives Speeches, You’re Welcome, Look, Holidays, Love to Say Dada and Tones/Tune X as the biggest omissions. The first two I just plain think are subpar. I’m not a fan of the covers in SMiLE. I made the exception for My Only Sunshine only because it’s on the Capitol list, which I wanted to use as the basis for this mix. HGS seems to have been unquestionably junked by Brian. YW, I think, was more of a last minute improv to fill out the B-Side of the single once he gave up on a proper H&V2. Look and Holidays, for better or worse, are often considered first on the chopping block for a lot of people. In any case, they aren’t on the Capitol list. But for what it’s worth, I think Side 1, or if you prefer, the ‘cycle of life/innocence’ suite sounds pretty bare without Look, and if we still had the vocals for it, I’d consider it a far worthier inclusion than Sunshine. Regarding Dada, if you buy into the idea that SMiLE was still a work in progress by March-May, I think perhaps Dada was being fleshed out as a replacement for the abandoned Elements, or the seemingly overlooked Great Shape. I harbor a similar opinion on Tones. There was even a vocal session for it, which means it wasn’t just Carl blindly exercising his prowess in the studio one day—it had some kind of purpose. I think it was Carl trying to step up to the plate and help his brother out once it became clear Van Dyke wasn’t coming back (not for a third time, I mean) and the album was helplessly overdue. This mix is made with the original January 15 release date in mind, so Tones/Dada had to go.

So there it is. I hope you enjoy. This is for the purists, and anyone who was put-off by my more outrageous decisions in Aquarian. I know I also want to make a “one big suite” version at some point in the future just to say I’ve tried everything. I want to see if it really is possible to make a satisfying album out of this material using the various Heroes and Villains segments as links between the other songs. My previous mixes have clocked in at 75, 67, 53, and now 43 minutes. To continue the trend, and as a challenge, I want this possible new mix to come in at ~35 minutes or slightly less. I’d also like to string together the studio chatter and some unused Psychedelic Sounds bits to make a “talking album” for shits and giggles. Maybe this summer sometime when I have the time and boredom to make it happen. Have a good year.

[ASinisterSmile]

Hey Mujan, another excellent mix (even if it has Good Vibrations (Yeah, I'm up to date on all that drama!  ))

The Aquarian Mix is probably my favorite out there, so massive props for that. What program do you use for editing if you don't mind me asking?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hey Mujan, another excellent mix (even if it has Good Vibrations (Yeah, I'm up to date on all that drama!  ))

The Aquarian Mix is probably my favorite out there, so massive props for that. What program do you use for editing if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks so much, I'm glad you enjoyed!

Don't worry, I didn't add Good Vibes just to please the critics. But I do have to admit that while I may prefer to think of them as separate projects, Brian stated unequivocally that Good Vibrations was going to be on this album. So I may be able to justify leaving it off of a personal mix (like Aquarian) but you can't claim to be making a historical mix without it. I have similar feelings towards My Only Sunshine.

Nothing special. Honestly, I just use Audacity. When I did my first one, I wasn't ambitious or creative enough to make too many changes. I never thought this would become an ongoing hobby either, I just ended up becoming disillusioned by the 3-suite structure and disgusted at the lack of creativity in all the other mixes out there (including my own) so I decided to keep at it. Anyway, what I'm getting at here is I started using Audacity because it was free, easy to use, and suited my limited needs well enough. I've stuck with it all this time due to inertia, but I'm the first to admit there's way better stuff out there. I'm just too cheap to pay. Hell, there's probably better *free* software out there too, I just don't know about it or feel like learning how to use something else at this point.

[Summertime Blooz]

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts on this Mujan. While I think your mix is too far out to even generously be accepted as more historically accurate, I do appreciate your passion. Your mixes are really for the non-purists (and all the better for it, I'd say). I really like that you used My Only Sunshine/Barnshine to end the album. Also the way you used the extra horns at the end of Surf's Up was pretty effective. On my own personal mix, I have some GFIHFH excerpts preceding Surf's Up just as you have done- so good work!  If you don't mind a suggestion though, on your next mix, you might want to try challenging yourself to just hard cuts/edits as I think those are more Smile-ish (modular) than all of the crossfading.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Best mix I've heard to date. The crossfading is outstanding. Kinda reminds me of how DJs used to morph from one cut to another in the days of progressive radio.

[Mikie]

Hey Mujan, another excellent mix (even if it has Good Vibrations (Yeah, I'm up to date on all that drama!  ))

Glad to see you're "Up to date on the drama".  First post on this board and you added to it. 

Good Vibrations belongs with Smile. 'Nuff said.

[rab2591]

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts on this Mujan. While I think your mix is too far out to even generously be accepted as more historically accurate, I do appreciate your passion.

This.

A plethora of creativity in this mix, and it has a lot of great ideas (the Ice Cream skit before CIFOTM really impressed me).

Things I didn't like: the editing done in CIFOTM and the Worms....parts seemed out of tempo. Also, I didn't like the horns in Surf's Up - seemed more of a distraction than anything.

I'm glad to see people are still trying to "roll their own", keep on keepin' on.

[SinisterSmile]

Hey Mujan, another excellent mix (even if it has Good Vibrations (Yeah, I'm up to date on all that drama!  ))

Glad to see you're "Up to date on the drama".  First post on this board and you added to it. 

Good Vibrations belongs with Smile. 'Nuff said.

Huh, I must have made a second account somehow, that's weird 

Anyway, just teasing.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts on this Mujan. While I think your mix is too far out to even generously be accepted as more historically accurate, I do appreciate your passion. Your mixes are really for the non-purists (and all the better for it, I'd say). I really like that you used My Only Sunshine/Barnshine to end the album. Also the way you used the extra horns at the end of Surf's Up was pretty effective. On my own personal mix, I have some GFIHFH excerpts preceding Surf's Up just as you have done- so good work!  If you don't mind a suggestion though, on your next mix, you might want to try challenging yourself to just hard cuts/edits as I think those are more Smile-ish (modular) than all of the crossfading.

Of course. I think the discussion is as fun as listening I appreciate your feedback, but with all respect I have to disagree about this being too far out to be accurate. I think SMiLE would have been VERY far out and psychedelic. More so than anyone gives it credit for, it's just that we've become so accustomed to the "cleaner" BWPS/TSS versions that it's hard to imagine anything different. Granted tho, it's likely that there wouldn't have been quite so many Psychedelic Sounds skits on the real thing. Certainly the Veggie Fight and George Fell, anything else it's hard to say for certain.

Best mix I've heard to date. The crossfading is outstanding. Kinda reminds me of how DJs used to morph from one cut to another in the days of progressive radio.

That's very kind of you to say. Thank you!  I wasnt thinking from that angle, but maybe it fits, since this was Brian's attempt at a hip album that'd fit in on FM radio.

Hey Mujan, another excellent mix (even if it has Good Vibrations (Yeah, I'm up to date on all that drama!  ))

Glad to see you're "Up to date on the drama".  First post on this board and you added to it. 

Good Vibrations belongs with Smile. 'Nuff said.

Well...when you blow personal preferences up into a big thing, it stands to reason people will hear about it. Of course, I'd prefer if we stopped talking about that silliness too and move on. Even though I don't think it fits, Brian did. So Good Vibrations would've been on the real SMiLE. Even if he changed his mind, I'm sure Capitol would've insisted.

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts on this Mujan. While I think your mix is too far out to even generously be accepted as more historically accurate, I do appreciate your passion.

This.

A plethora of creativity in this mix, and it has a lot of great ideas (the Ice Cream skit before CIFOTM really impressed me).

Things I didn't like: the editing done in CIFOTM and the Worms....parts seemed out of tempo. Also, I didn't like the horns in Surf's Up - seemed more of a distraction than anything.

I'm glad to see people are still trying to "roll their own", keep on keepin' on.

Many thanks. Wouldn't you believe, that actually wasn't planned. But yeah, those pianos really match up well. I'm sure if other people have the patience to sift through the Psych Skits and mix them in semi-randomly, they'd find some other cool connections I missed. Enough with the BWPS-copy cats, I say. Just out of curiosity, how do you like your CIFOTM? It's my favorite SMiLE song, and though it's a shame it's so unfinished the tradeoff is its different on almost every mix. Kinda like Heroes. I can see why the Horns in Surf would turn some people off. In Aquarian too, that and my version of Worms seemed to be the most polarizing changes. I kinda went back and forth on it in Aquarian too. With this version, I tried different sync points for the horns and I think it sounds much better now.

I'll try

 

[soniclovenoize]

With Aquarian, my goal was to use as much of the vintage ’66-’68 material as possible in ways that hadn’t been done before to inspire people to go against the usual 3-suite, 17~20 track, BWPS-mashups that have become the standard.

I remember you saying that before, but I just don't agree with that.  If you look at the thread about it, this board seems a bit split 50/50 if they prefer a 12-song or 3-movement SMiLE, and most people's mixes seem to be a bit of both.  There is no "standard". 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

With Aquarian, my goal was to use as much of the vintage ’66-’68 material as possible in ways that hadn’t been done before to inspire people to go against the usual 3-suite, 17~20 track, BWPS-mashups that have become the standard.

I remember you saying that before, but I just don't agree with that.  If you look at the thread about it, this board seems a bit split 50/50 if they prefer a 12-song or 3-movement SMiLE, and most people's mixes seem to be a bit of both.  There is no "standard".  

I guess what I mean is, most of the fanmixes online follow the 3-suites. Outside of the hardcore fans here, most casual listeners take BWPS/TSS as the unquestioned SMiLE, and forget or dont care that the original would almost certainly have been something much different. TSS, which is the now official word (ugh) on the subject, is 3-suites. I've seen a few fanmixes that tried something new by having the whole album be one connected pieces of music, but they're the very rare exception as far as I know, and frankly, they don't sound very good. But those in favor of a 12 track album don't tend to post their work online for download. Strange as it is, I have never even see a mix online that just followed the Capitol list exactly, which you think would've been done before. And, as far as I'm aware, there's never been any fanmixes that go with a 2-suite structure. Or if they do, the second suite is a forced "elements" medley that isn't historically accurate by any stretch of the imagination. I know some of you are going to read that last sentence and say "Well, who are YOU to say what's historically accurate?" But really, ask yourself, was Brian REALLY planning on Dada being water back in '66 when the track didn't even exist yet? In January when it was All Day, a Heroes segment? Maybe it was intended for SMiLE come March-May, but by then Fire wasn't, and the elements itself was an abandoned concept. Yes, yes I know, "But the element suite was in BWPS!" And Brian specifically said that was a new addition. I could go on and on debunking the elements as a suite/side, but I've done so in-depth before. Don't even get me started on the "GV is the heart/aether element!" BS.

It just seems like most mixes which have been posted online, whether they want to admit it or not, are heavily influenced by Priore/BWPS. And that's totally cool. I'm not trying to say people shouldn't listen to SMiLE like that. But I think there's a legitimate danger that we're letting the present taint the past. The 3-suite thing is nice, but it shouldn't be allowed to become the final, unquestionable word on the subject. We shouldn't forget that such a structure would have been extremely unlikely back in the day. It's not even possible on the single-LP vinyl format Brian was working with. I'd just like more people to take a fresh, unbiased look at the material we have as is. To read the sessionography, interviews from Brian/VDP/Vosse back in '66-'69 before BWPS/Priore/Fan Speculation tainted the waters, and let the past speak for itself.

Even just trying to talk about it, even here, you inevitably get shut down with a lot of "There WASNT an original idea!"/"Brian says he finished it, who are YOU to question him?"/"There's no way to say what the original plan would have been." And in a way, they're right. But I think by saying that kinda stuff, they're preventing meaningful discussion and possibly fruitful insight into the album they claim to love so much. I'm happy we got Smiley and BWPS, but that doesn't mean we still can't speculate about the original album. I guess I'm alone in this, but I think that attitude has allowed for a lot of baseless speculation and misinformation to take root and now be commonly accepted as fact regarding the album, which I think is awful. I think some of us don't give Brian enough credit--he wasn't recording anything that passed through his mind willy nilly. Not until January, anyway. There was at least some faint outline of a blueprint, even if it wasnt 100% set in stone. Just because he wasnt 100% sure and/or cant remember now that doesnt mean the elusive original intent of SMiLE is completely nonexistent and/or not worth talking about.

TL;DR: That thread is only a small picture. All things concerned, I think it's pretty undeniable that the 3-suites is dominant and historical revision, false info, and a lack of dialogue on the subject has lead to a distorted view of what the project would've been.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Good to see a new SMiLE thread running...a quick question...

There was a possibility of Brian releasing a double-sided "Heroes And Villains" single, we obviously got a "Heroes And Villains" single, and through the years we've heard a number of bits/parts/sessions. If you pieced together just the most interesting bits, you could have a 10-11 minute long, fascinating, "kitchen sink" version.

Question: If Brian would've finished SMiLE, what do you think the ALBUM VERSION of "Heroes And Villains" would've been comprised of? A three or four minute version like the single? A Part 1 and a Part 2? A 10-minute long version?   

[rab2591]

It just seems like most mixes which have been posted online, whether they want to admit it or not, are heavily influenced by Priore/BWPS. And that's totally cool. I'm not trying to say people shouldn't listen to SMiLE like that. But I think there's a legitimate danger that we're letting the present taint the past. The 3-suite thing is nice, but it shouldn't be allowed to become the final, unquestionable word on the subject.

How many people here honestly believe that '67 Smile would've been in 3-suite format? I think some fan-mixers follow the 3-suite model as it's a version of Smile that was recorded/released by the artist himself (and also because it's a beautiful/cohesive format). This doesn't mean that there is an overall distorted view on what the '67 Smile would've been like. If one does 10 minutes of research on the internet, with an ounce of logic, they'll quickly realize that a 3-suite version of Smile in '67 was relatively impossible....even Mark Linett has said as much in interviews. He has even specifically stated your point that Brian most likely would not have released a double album in '67:

"I can’t say this 100 percent, but at the last minute they wouldn’t have gone, “Oh, this has to be a double-album.” That was extremely unlikely given the time frame." - Mark Linett

"What is important to understand is that when it was abandoned in early 1967, there was no sequence, much less a finished album.  This isn’t a project where an album was completed and just shelved for one reason or another and we’re bringing it back after all this time.  It was largely unfinished and unsequenced. And it certainly wouldn’t have been what it became in 2004." - Mark Linett, 2011

TSS is not "official word" on a '67 Smile....the boxset book even specifically states:

"...the aficionados continue to debate and speculate. "Yes, but....what was it supposed to be originally?" they asked. The debate still continues. Well...this box set is not going to answer those questions...because there was never an answer to begin with." - Alan Boyd

The makers of the box made it perfectly clear that TSS is not meant to be the final word on how the original material was supposed to be sequenced. And people may prefer the 3-suite version, but that doesn't mean they believe it was the original intention of the Smile material.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Good to see a new SMiLE thread running...a quick question...

There was a possibility of Brian releasing a double-sided "Heroes And Villains" single, we obviously got a "Heroes And Villains" single, and through the years we've heard a number of bits/parts/sessions. If you pieced together just the most interesting bits, you could have a 10-11 minute long, fascinating, "kitchen sink" version.

Question: If Brian would've finished SMiLE, what do you think the ALBUM VERSION of "Heroes And Villains" would've been comprised of? A three or four minute version like the single? A Part 1 and a Part 2? A 10-minute long version?   

In 1966, I think just a usual 3 or 4 minute song. No chorus, just interlude sections such as Great Shape (later, Cantina.) I don't think Brian would have wasted half a side on one song. While 7~11 minute Heroes cuts are interesting, its really overkill on any mix I've heard that does it that way. After so many chants of "Heroes and Villains!" you start to zone out. 5 or 6 minute takes of the song are usually really good to my ears, but even then I don't think that was Brian's style. Once he started working on it for the single, he seemingly tried to make it more commercial by adding a chorus which makes me wonder why he didn't just pick one of the more commercial songs in the first place. Cabin Essence or Surf's Up would've been perfect, with Look or Holidays (assuming they were discarded by this point) being the perfect "throwaway" B-Sides. I think we have our H&V2 on the boxset. Essentially, it would've kicked off with Gee and then two or three more rounds of "Heroes and Villains" chants then the new Barnshine fade. That's my understanding.

Great Shape is a huge mystery. If we had the vocal session, we could conclude whether it really grew into its own standalone song or not. I tend to believe it would've become a medley of some of the more tangential H&V pieces like Do A Lot, maybe All Day, maybe With Me Tonight, and probably Barnyard. So in that sense I guess you could say there would be a two part H&V on the album. I have to think though, that if there were any mistakes or miscommunications between Brian and whoever really submitted that list (David Anderle/Carl/Diane?) then the inclussion of Great Shape was it. I just don't see enough material to justify listing it as a track like it is. All the other songs, even the Elements, we can make a reasonable assumption for what the plan was. This track tho, it's all pretty baseless conjecture.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It just seems like most mixes which have been posted online, whether they want to admit it or not, are heavily influenced by Priore/BWPS. And that's totally cool. I'm not trying to say people shouldn't listen to SMiLE like that. But I think there's a legitimate danger that we're letting the present taint the past. The 3-suite thing is nice, but it shouldn't be allowed to become the final, unquestionable word on the subject.

How many people here honestly believe that '67 Smile would've been in 3-suite format? I think some fan-mixers follow the 3-suite model as it's a version of Smile that was recorded/released by the artist himself (and also because it's a beautiful/cohesive format). This doesn't mean that there is an overall distorted view on what the '67 Smile would've been like. If one does 10 minutes of research on the internet, with an ounce of logic, they'll quickly realize that a 3-suite version of Smile in '67 was relatively impossible....even Mark Linett has said as much in interviews. He has even specifically stated your point that Brian most likely would not have released a double album in '67:

"I can’t say this 100 percent, but at the last minute they wouldn’t have gone, “Oh, this has to be a double-album.” That was extremely unlikely given the time frame." - Mark Linett

"What is important to understand is that when it was abandoned in early 1967, there was no sequence, much less a finished album.  This isn’t a project where an album was completed and just shelved for one reason or another and we’re bringing it back after all this time.  It was largely unfinished and unsequenced. And it certainly wouldn’t have been what it became in 2004." - Mark Linett, 2011

TSS is not "official word" on a '67 Smile....the boxset book even specifically states:

"...the aficionados continue to debate and speculate. "Yes, but....what was it supposed to be originally?" they asked. The debate still continues. Well...this box set is not going to answer those questions...because there was never an answer to begin with." - Alan Boyd

The makers of the box made it perfectly clear that TSS is not meant to be the final word on how the original material was supposed to be sequenced. And people may prefer the 3-suite version, but that doesn't mean they believe it was the original intention of the Smile material.

I think you're getting too hung up on the people here and not realizing that we are the 1% of fans who even give enough of a sh*t to discuss this kind of thing at all. With BWPS and now TSS, the 3-suites is canon for better or worse. Maybe I shouldn't get so hung up about it, but considering how SMiLE's biggest appeal is how mysterious and customizable it is, I can't help but think it's a shame that the setlist for a live concert 36 years later has retroactively defined how future generations will see this album. Even saying "yes, but you and others can still roll your own" is somewhat untrue because of the fact that 90% (and even that's probably an understatement) of all the fanmixes out there follow the official way with only minimal changes.

Even if one does research and concludes how different TSS is to the original idea, few will care enough to seek out an alternative much less make their own. And if they do go the former...again...the vast majority of what they'll find is almost exactly the same. Even if one prefers a 3-suite way (and there's valid reasons to do so) I think we can all agree that that format has been done to death.

Those quotes you listed are hopeful, but it still kind of irks me then, that they went with the BWPS model as they did. If they had done something different, with the same disclaimers, I'd be happy. It would show the casuals the vast possibilities of the material, instead of more or less cementing the 3-suite, 17~20 track version as the final word. Whether people like us continue to roll our own or not, I doubt there will be another release of this material. I hope so, because there's glaring omissions (so much for 'roll your own ') from TSS like the test edit for Child, certain takes of songs, and isolations (Truck Driving Man and Rock With Me Henry especially) but as far as official releases, it seems this is it for SMiLE. I wonder if Brian insisted they follow the BWPS tracklisting or not? If he did, then obviously Mark and Alan's hands were tied, but then I have to criticize their work. I'm not trying to sound ungrateful, they did an excellent job on this important and thankless assignment. And I understand that no matter what they did, backseat drivers like me would be criticizing them. But BWPS' greatest asset is that it flows. Sorta. As I've said, the short fragments in Suite 1 slow things down, Veggies after Surf is a jarring as hell, and the third suite is kind of haphazard. But couldn't they have at least made the Second Suite flow better? That was by far the best part of BWPS, it's not too hard to do, and by allowing that to fail so hard they really didn't do themselves any favors by sticking to the 3-suites in the first place. I think that should have been a wake up call that this wasnt going to work.

I don't know. I guess I'm a bit upset that if I ever tell anyone "Hey, my favorite album is SMiLE you should check it out" the only options are BWPS (which is beautiful, but not what I'm talking about) or TSS (which, much as I love and appreciate the boxset itself, Disc 1 is a misguided mess) or some fanmix that I made myself, which just kinda comes off as petty self-selling. All in all, I just wish there was more variety in the fanmixes and even (some day perhaps?) official releases.

[rab2591]

Even saying "yes, but you and others can still roll your own" is somewhat untrue because of the fact that 90% (and even that's probably an understatement) of all the fanmixes out there follow the official way with only minimal changes.

This makes no sense. Just because a plethora of fan mixes follow the 3-suite format doesn't make the "roll your own" concept untrue. For the enlightened ones, you are free to make your own original mix and wow the world with it.

Even if one does research and concludes how different TSS is to the original idea, few will care enough to seek out an alternative much less make their own.

Why would this even matter? Look at the ratings of BWPS on metacritic, or Amazon....the vast majority of fans like the music and that's all that matters. Why is it so popular? Because it works. It's cohesive, it's beautiful, it flows perfectly....probably because it was recorded/released by the artist himself. Your average fan doesn't need to base their appreciation of the music (or sequence of the music) on a set of ideas vaguely laid out by Brian in the 1960s.

For those of us who see further into the music: of course we should discuss it, of course we should customize it (after all, Smile was meant to be modular). Having said that, there is no danger to Smile history/lore if most people enjoy the 3-suite format (as information about this subject is easily attainable).

It would show the casuals the vast possibilities of the material, instead of more or less cementing the 3-suite, 17~20 track version as the final word.

They used BWPS as a guideline because that's how the artist himself released the material. As I quoted above, Alan specifically states in the liner notes that this boxset is by no means an answer to the question "what was the original supposed to be like?". So this shouldn't even be an issue.

But couldn't they have at least made the Second Suite flow better? That was by far the best part of BWPS, it's not too hard to do, and by allowing that to fail so hard they really didn't do themselves any favors by sticking to the 3-suites in the first place. I think that should have been a wake up call that this wasnt going to work.

According to audiences around the world, according to fans, according to music critics the 3-suite format did not at all fail....in fact, it scored a 97/100 on Metacritic - making it one of the most highly rated albums on that site (You don't have to scroll too far to see the album.).

I don't know. I guess I'm a bit upset that if I ever tell anyone "Hey, my favorite album is SMiLE you should check it out" the only options are BWPS (which is beautiful, but not what I'm talking about) or TSS (which, much as I love and appreciate the boxset itself, Disc 1 is a misguided mess) or some fanmix that I made myself, which just kinda comes off as petty self-selling. All in all, I just wish there was more variety in the fanmixes and even (some day perhaps?) official releases.

There is variety. Smile is possibly the most fan-mixed album of all time. Erase that apparent 90% of fan mixes that follow the 3-suite format and you'll still probably get dozens of mixes that are creative/original/based-on-history. The Beach Boys blogosphere is full of 'em.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Even saying "yes, but you and others can still roll your own" is somewhat untrue because of the fact that 90% (and even that's probably an understatement) of all the fanmixes out there follow the official way with only minimal changes.

This makes no sense. Just because a plethora of fan mixes follow the 3-suite format doesn't make the "roll your own" concept untrue. For the enlightened ones, you are free to make your own original mix and wow the world with it.

Even if one does research and concludes how different TSS is to the original idea, few will care enough to seek out an alternative much less make their own.

Why would this even matter? Look at the ratings of BWPS on metacritic, or Amazon....the vast majority of fans like the music and that's all that matters. Why is it so popular? Because it works. It's cohesive, it's beautiful, it flows perfectly....probably because it was recorded/released by the artist himself. Your average fan doesn't need to base their appreciation of the music (or sequence of the music) on a set of ideas vaguely laid out by Brian in the 1960s.

For those of us who see further into the music: of course we should discuss it, of course we should customize it (after all, Smile was meant to be modular). Having said that, there is no danger to Smile history/lore if most people enjoy the 3-suite format (as information about this subject is easily attainable).

It would show the casuals the vast possibilities of the material, instead of more or less cementing the 3-suite, 17~20 track version as the final word.

They used BWPS as a guideline because that's how the artist himself released the material. As I quoted above, Alan specifically states in the liner notes that this boxset is by no means an answer to the question "what was the original supposed to be like?". So this shouldn't even be an issue.

But couldn't they have at least made the Second Suite flow better? That was by far the best part of BWPS, it's not too hard to do, and by allowing that to fail so hard they really didn't do themselves any favors by sticking to the 3-suites in the first place. I think that should have been a wake up call that this wasnt going to work.

According to audiences around the world, according to fans, according to music critics the 3-suite format did not at all fail....in fact, it scored a 97/100 on Metacritic - making it one of the most highly rated albums on that site (You don't have to scroll too far to see the album.).

I don't know. I guess I'm a bit upset that if I ever tell anyone "Hey, my favorite album is SMiLE you should check it out" the only options are BWPS (which is beautiful, but not what I'm talking about) or TSS (which, much as I love and appreciate the boxset itself, Disc 1 is a misguided mess) or some fanmix that I made myself, which just kinda comes off as petty self-selling. All in all, I just wish there was more variety in the fanmixes and even (some day perhaps?) official releases.

There is variety. Smile is possibly the most fan-mixed album of all time. Erase that apparent 90% of fan mixes that follow the 3-suite format and you'll still probably get dozens of mixes that are creative/original/based-on-history. The Beach Boys blogosphere is full of 'em.

You make great points, and I guess in the end my hangup is mostly that age old regret that the original SMiLE will always be elusive and alternate takes on the album (however closer they may be to the '60s intent than BWPS/TSS) will always be an obscure niche product that only the most dedicated fans bother to seek out.  I love Smiley and BWPS a great deal, and its a wonderful silver lining that we got these albums (and all the fanmixes) out of the tragedy of the original album not coming out.

As good as the metacritic score may be, and as wonderful as it is that people like it, there are flaws. I think all but the most fanatic "Brianistas" would say so. Those flaws are even more accentuated in TSS because its not how those recordings were meant to be heard. That's incredibly moving that Brian faced his demons in 2003 and found a new sequence that he liked. It still doesn't change the fact that forcing the old songs into that mold is akin to forcing a square peg into a round hole. Sure, it's Brian's music and he can do as he pleases with it. But I can't help but think he got it right (or I should say, was on the right track) the first time, back in 1966 to make something earth-shattering.

We can go back and forth tho on the merits of releasing TSS as BWPS because its how the artist chose to release the material, or letting the original recordings remain their own project which would have certainly been completely different. I choose the latter view, you the former, and we're probably never going to convince the other. Personally, as much as I love BWPS, I think there's a better way to listen to this music. Some may consider that audacious on my part. As if I'm claiming to know better than the man himself. But I'm not. I'm claiming that Brian's creative instincts were more honed in '66 than in '03, an assertion I'm sure we could all agree with. Or, if you prefer, I'm claiming that what worked for a live setlist doesn't make the best studio LP.

[Don Malcolm]

Just finished reading the earlier thread and this one...kudos to all who stipulate (each in their own way and "beautiful even in [their] obscurity...") to the fact that SMiLE is still an open-ended Russian nesting doll set to be opened again and again by any and all who feel so inclined.

Brian survived the trauma of revisiting SMiLE and a credible facsimile emerged. The music, no longer a muted trumpeter swan, can and does support (as many have already noted) a virtually endless multiplicity of interpretations. Having read all of the testimony, I'm strongly inclined to agree that the 3-suite format of BWPS was more a means to an end than a faithful reconstruction of the original LP. Does it work? Yes, to a large degree. But it seems force-fit in places, with fragment insertions that barely avoid superfluousness.

I think it's clear that the two camps (expansive, surreal suite vs. orthodox, envelope-pushing, interrelated 12-13 song LP) will now be with us for the foreseeable future, with no real resolution in sight. I think Jake took things in an extremely interesting direction by radically rearranging the segments within songs themselves and redistributing them--and such creative exploration should be encouraged so that we might discover all of the possible combinations and sequences that can be imagined. Naturally, we are all free to accept or reject (or shrug our shoulders) at any or all of this...but Brian's modular recording technique is actually akin to a triple-edged sword, with a new "blade surface" emerging from the original harakiri-like chaos into which the doubly star-crossed project "fell into" (ever wonder,  BTW, why Brian was so obsessed with falling, with rise-and-fall? Could that be why he often seeks some comfort in the banging, droning sounds that have captivated him in their various forms?)

I like the fact that sonic has two different approaches, and so does Mujan. I think this is the most honest way to address and face up to the essentially "dualist dilemma" that is at the core of SMilLE, and, indeed, in the Beach Boys' career--always caught between opposites, between competing impulses.

I don't think anyone should decide that because 29 critics agree on BWPS being "stellar" (almost any competently completed version of SMiLE would be, after all...) means that we should consider it to be the be-all end-all for this music. There's a much larger sample size at the Metacritc site: the fans themselves. And just as I tend to value the "wisdom of the commons" (at least in everything other than off-year elections...), I see a somewhat different verdict at Metacritic when we look at those fan vote stats...they are still highly positive, but the split is closer to 75-25.

Now only a few folks there are worried about the suite vs. songs issue in those assessments. The vast majority of people, hard as it might be for some of us here to believe, haven't been spending large chunks of their life obsessing about the nuances of the SMLE project. They simply hear BWPS as a credible facsimile, recognize the innovative fusion of genres, are transported by some of Brian's most sublime melodies. Their endorsement in no way means that they have decided that this construct is the only way that SMiLE can  be "officially received." They simply recognize that it is a fine rendition of what is (mostly) exceptional music.

I think the 75-25 "fan vote" is useful to us in another way--which is to provide us with a provisional answer about SMiLE's likely reception in 1967. It's likely that SMiLE would have confused and off-put about a quarter of those who heard it. There would have been some backlash and confusion but it would not have been as harmful as what happened with Smiley Smile. There was room in 1967 for SMiLE to have a solid impact, even in the wake of Sergeant Pepper, but I think it might have been harder to deal with a scenario where SMiLE came out first and was then eclipsed by the more "in the pocket of rock'n'roll" sounds on Pepper. What would have been the next chess move had the scenario played out that way??

[rab2591]

As good as the metacritic score may be, and as wonderful as it is that people like it, there are flaws. I think all but the most fanatic "Brianistas" would say so. Those flaws are even more accentuated in TSS because its not how those recordings were meant to be heard. That's incredibly moving that Brian faced his demons in 2003 and found a new sequence that he liked. It still doesn't change the fact that forcing the old songs into that mold is akin to forcing a square peg into a round hole. Sure, it's Brian's music and he can do as he pleases with it. But I can't help but think he got it right (or I should say, was on the right track) the first time, back in 1966 to make something earth-shattering.

Depends on how you look at it. When I first listened to BWPS I knew pretty much nothing about the original concept of the album. After two or three listens I started hearing the magic, it all connected for me. I saw no flaws. Now that I'm more educated on the matter: if we're basing our opinions on historical accuracy, I see lots of flaws. If we're basing it off strictly spiritual grandeur, I see no flaws. The history of Smile has no bearing on my opinion of BWPS, and I'm grateful for that. I see BWPS as a wonderful /beautifully told story. I totally get your point of view, though I don't agree with it, I understand your passion about it.

As for your other points... I too fully wish that a '67 Smile came out....I think it would've changed the world of pop. And I look forward to every fan made mix...Because I itch for a mix that may just come close to what Brian had in mind back then (or what I think Brian had in mind back then). That being said, I doubt any fan-mix will ever move me emotionally like BWPS does...but that is just personal preference.  

@Don: I'm really not in any camp myself. I'm of the belief that a '67 Smile would've been 12 songs, but I'm also happy with what Brian released in 2004. I'm glad people are pushing the envelope when it comes to Smile mixes...as the material is basically begging to be messed around with. Mixers like Mujan, soniclovenoize, JMZ put a ton of effort into them....sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I'm grateful that they try. A lot of unique and beautiful mixes have emerged because of this type of experimenting.

Also, as for metacritic, I was merely pointing out that the majority of fans were satisfied with Brian's 3-suite format....and thus it did not fail as Mujan was implying. I wasn't saying it was the be-all end-all of music.

Anywho, I won't derail your thread any further, Mujan. Happy mixing

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Just finished reading the earlier thread and this one...kudos to all who stipulate (each in their own way and "beautiful even in [their] obscurity...") to the fact that SMiLE is still an open-ended Russian nesting doll set to be opened again and again by any and all who feel so inclined.

Brian survived the trauma of revisiting SMiLE and a credible facsimile emerged. The music, no longer a muted trumpeter swan, can and does support (as many have already noted) a virtually endless multiplicity of interpretations. Having read all of the testimony, I'm strongly inclined to agree that the 3-suite format of BWPS was more a means to an end than a faithful reconstruction of the original LP. Does it work? Yes, to a large degree. But it seems force-fit in places, with fragment insertions that barely avoid superfluousness.

I think it's clear that the two camps (expansive, surreal suite vs. orthodox, envelope-pushing, interrelated 12-13 song LP) will now be with us for the foreseeable future, with no real resolution in sight. I think Jake took things in an extremely interesting direction by radically rearranging the segments within songs themselves and redistributing them--and such creative exploration should be encouraged so that we might discover all of the possible combinations and sequences that can be imagined. Naturally, we are all free to accept or reject (or shrug our shoulders) at any or all of this...but Brian's modular recording technique is actually akin to a triple-edged sword, with a new "blade surface" emerging from the original harakiri-like chaos into which the doubly star-crossed project "fell into" (ever wonder,  BTW, why Brian was so obsessed with falling, with rise-and-fall? Could that be why he often seeks some comfort in the banging, droning sounds that have captivated him in their various forms?)

I like the fact that sonic has two different approaches, and so does Mujan. I think this is the most honest way to address and face up to the essentially "dualist dilemma" that is at the core of SMilLE, and, indeed, in the Beach Boys' career--always caught between opposites, between competing impulses.

I don't think anyone should decide that because 29 critics agree on BWPS being "stellar" (almost any competently completed version of SMiLE would be, after all...) means that we should consider it to be the be-all end-all for this music. There's a much larger sample size at the Metacritc site: the fans themselves. And just as I tend to value the "wisdom of the commons" (at least in everything other than off-year elections...), I see a somewhat different verdict at Metacritic when we look at those fan vote stats...they are still highly positive, but the split is closer to 75-25.

Now only a few folks there are worried about the suite vs. songs issue in those assessments. The vast majority of people, hard as it might be for some of us here to believe, haven't been spending large chunks of their life obsessing about the nuances of the SMLE project. They simply hear BWPS as a credible facsimile, recognize the innovative fusion of genres, are transported by some of Brian's most sublime melodies. Their endorsement in no way means that they have decided that this construct is the only way that SMiLE can  be "officially received." They simply recognize that it is a fine rendition of what is (mostly) exceptional music.

I think the 75-25 "fan vote" is useful to us in another way--which is to provide us with a provisional answer about SMiLE's likely reception in 1967. It's likely that SMiLE would have confused and off-put about a quarter of those who heard it. There would have been some backlash and confusion but it would not have been as harmful as what happened with Smiley Smile. There was room in 1967 for SMiLE to have a solid impact, even in the wake of Sergeant Pepper, but I think it might have been harder to deal with a scenario where SMiLE came out first and was then eclipsed by the more "in the pocket of rock'n'roll" sounds on Pepper. What would have been the next chess move had the scenario played out that way??

Thank you. You said what I was trying to convey in perhaps a better way than I could.

I disagree though, that just because about 25% of the audience disliked BWPS that that's how it would've happened in 1967. I think some would have been put off, sure, but many more non-Beach Boys fans would've been drawn in. And even those "betrayed" fans of the old music would have eventually come around in time. After Sgt Pepper and all the other out-there psychedelic albums changed the pop scene, many of them would've recognized that their beloved Beach Boys did it first, and had a newfound respect. And in the ensuing years, more and more would recognize what a milestone SMiLE was, and how timeless it is, especially in comparison to the early stuff. BWPS is a different beast. It's a somewhat forced conglomeration of half-finished songs and fragments coming 36 years after their time, in (what many consider to be) a significantly flawed sequence. SMiLE would not be subject to those criticisms. Hell, Sgt. Pepper is an incredibly flawed album that's really nothing special (at least in my opinion) when you remove the historical context. If SMiLE was released first, or at the same time, it would also be "shielded" by its legacy.

In my honest opinion, the two greatest albums of the psychedelic era are The United States of America (self-titled album from 1968) and Frank Zappa's We're Only in it for the Money, also from 1968. What's special about SMiLE is that it has the same condemnation of Western society as the former, with the crazy mish-mash of music/comedy/spoken word as the latter. I also believe SMiLE was self-aware of the "goofier" aspects of the hippie movement, same as those other two albums. Specifically, I see Wonderful as an attack on the "dont trust anyone over 30" slogan ("loving her mother and father") and a reminder that "free love" isnt always good (I interpet this song as the story of an innocent girl who was raped or at least pressured into having sex before she was ready to lose her 'innocence' but despite the traumatic experience, she will eventually find peace of mind again.) SMiLE also perfectly balances the tone between those two. USA is unrepentantly dark, cynical and scary. WOIIFTM is absolutely humorous and lighthearted. SMiLE has moments of both, and people would probably disagree on which moments fit which tone, which ultimately feeds into how fascinating it is. And it would've come out a whole year before those albums had it been finished by the original 1/15/67 release date. Absolutely incredible to think about.

Who is this Jake, and where can one listen to his mix? Sounds very intriguing. I debated switching the choruses of Cabin and Worms to cater to a few posters here who pointed out that the actual song structures of the Americana songs were not set in stone and switched frequently. I decided against it, simply because I agree with how Brian eventually sorted it out. But I'm glad someone did it.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

As good as the metacritic score may be, and as wonderful as it is that people like it, there are flaws. I think all but the most fanatic "Brianistas" would say so. Those flaws are even more accentuated in TSS because its not how those recordings were meant to be heard. That's incredibly moving that Brian faced his demons in 2003 and found a new sequence that he liked. It still doesn't change the fact that forcing the old songs into that mold is akin to forcing a square peg into a round hole. Sure, it's Brian's music and he can do as he pleases with it. But I can't help but think he got it right (or I should say, was on the right track) the first time, back in 1966 to make something earth-shattering.

Depends on how you look at it. When I first listened to BWPS I knew pretty much nothing about the original concept of the album. After two or three listens I started hearing the magic, it all connected for me. I saw no flaws. Now that I'm more educated on the matter: if we're basing our opinions on historical accuracy, I see lots of flaws. If we're basing it off strictly spiritual grandeur, I see no flaws. The history of Smile has no bearing on my opinion of BWPS, and I'm grateful for that. I see BWPS as a wonderful /beautifully told story. I totally get your point of view, though I don't agree with it, I understand your passion about it.

As for your other points... I too fully wish that a '67 Smile came out....I think it would've changed the world of pop. And I look forward to every fan made mix...Because I itch for a mix that may just come close to what Brian had in mind back then (or what I think Brian had in mind back then). That being said, I doubt any fan-mix will ever move me emotionally like BWPS does...but that is just personal preference.  

@Don: I'm really not in any camp myself. I'm of the belief that a '67 Smile would've been 12 songs, but I'm also happy with what Brian released in 2004. I'm glad people are pushing the envelope when it comes to Smile mixes...as the material is basically begging to be messed around with. Mixers like Mujan, soniclovenoize, JMZ put a ton of effort into them....sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I'm grateful that they try. A lot of unique and beautiful mixes have emerged because of this type of experimenting.

Also, as for metacritic, I was merely pointing out that the majority of fans were satisfied with Brian's 3-suite format....and thus it did not fail as Mujan was implying. I wasn't saying it was the be-all end-all of music.

Anywho, I won't derail your thread any further, Mujan. Happy mixing

I heard Smiley first and initially hated it. It was nothing like Pet Sounds which I loved so much, and certainly nothing worthy of the "greatest album never made" SMiLE, which I had heard it replaced. I was wondering what on Earth Brian was thinking, and how lazy and half-assed it was. With increased listens and research into SMiLE (specifically how the transition was somewhat more nuanced and natural than I had thought) I've come to love it. Not just as a piece of the puzzle, but as its own work of brilliance way ahead of its time.

I heard some bootlegs/fanmixes online, and even in their poor quality they blew me away. My first listen of CIFOTM was absolutely mind-blowing. I based my Aquarian mix on that first, amazing version I heard. Anyway, BWPS was the last iteration of the mysterious SMiLE that I listened to. I loved it at first. I thought "Wow..so this is how it was supposed to go!" But on repeated listens, I liked it less and less. I still respect it for what it is, and I'm glad it happened if for no other reason than it gave Brian closure, introduced the public to this amazing material in the most dramatic way possible, and left him comfortable enough to FINALLY release the original recordings. But I never listen to it anymore. Initially, my distaste didnt come from "historical accuracy" but simply that the boots/mixes, even in their (at the time) shitty quality, still sounded better than an older Brian and the Wondermints. There really is something indescribably magical in those session tapes. BWPS is too polished, too "fake" sounding, and over time, once the initial shock of "wow...this is the finished SMiLE!" wore off, the objective flaws of the sequence, use of fragments passed off as songs, etc began to grate on me. Now, I'm also put off by the lack of psychedelic sounds and general psychedelic "atmosphere" of it. As I've come to experiment with a 2-suite structure, psychedelic sounds interludes, and cutting extraneous material...then the historical accuracy question began to factor in. Because I had "tasted chocolate" saw how much better it was, and now "I'm never going back."

I'm perfectly happy thinking of them as separate works though. SMiLE is a never-finished dream album we can all have fun researching, mixing, discussing and sharing. It's a tragedy that the greatest album of all time which would've changed the world never happened. The trade-off is we got a mythical, interactive work of art that may not have reached the masses, but has changed the lives of those who sought it out. It's a modern legend, and a puzzle with a million solutions. Sgt Pepper may have gotten all the glory back in the day, but it really is a shallow, dumbed-down album which I believe more and more people will come to see as overrated as the years go by. It doesn't live up to the hype; SMiLE surpasses it. BWPS is the most incredible redemption story in modern music. While I don't really enjoy listening to it anymore, no one could deny being touched by the story of a broken man facing the past and conquering it in front of the whole world.

The only thing I actually resent, and think is flat out wrong is TSS' misguided attempt to bridge the two separate albums together. No. Just, no. The 2004 sequence was great for a live show. It worked well enough for what it was, but to let that define how the '66-'68 fragments are heard from here on out is a tragedy in itself. It never should have happened, whether Brian honestly believes the 2004 sequence is the best possible or not. I know many will disagree with me on that, but that's my honest opinion on the matter. And I would never mean to insult Brian or what he did in 2003-4, merely I want to preserve what I believe was his original intent for the project, before it went off the rails in January.

I didnt mean the 3-suites failed in BWPS. Just that the attempt to force the original fragments into a structure that they were never intended for was a failure. I don't particularly enjoy listening to BWPS, but I respect it as a work of art in its own right. TSS Disc 1 is not art. Mark and Alan's work at restoring the music is to be commended. Their mixes of certain tracks (especially Vega-Tables) are brilliant. But the overall album is a mess. Even if you do want to hear these songs in 3-suites, there's plenty of fan mixes which do it much better. They tried to have it both ways, I think, by having each track stand alone yet pushing for a sequence that was designed around the songs flowing into one another. The second suite in BWPS is amazing, and I think one of the few "vintage" ideas from the original album that made it through. In TSS, it honestly sounds like crap. I'll probably get flak for saying all this, but I really think it's true.

You're not derailing it. I love talking about this. I was hoping to inspire these types of in-depth discussions with my other mixes/threads too, but one actually did get derailed and the other got moved and didn't inspire much discussion.

[rab2591]

Gah, it is my favorite boxset, and I doubt it will ever be topped. However, the omission of Brian's CIFOTM edit blows my mind. A whole disc devoted to Good Vibrations when we have already gotten so many different Good Vibrations session take tracks is a mystery to me. I also agree that the album version of Smile on TSS is lacking....I barely listen to it because many of the tracks are void of vocals/lyrics. It sounds very unfinished, void of life. That being said, there is no other way they could've presented the material without many Smile fanatics raising hell about it. Putting in BWPS form was the safest thing they could do with the material. Again, as Alan said in the book, TSS mix isn't supposed to represent a tracklist for a '67 Smile....it's not meant to define how SMiLE is supposed to be heard. "roll your own" - we have been given the clearance/blessing to find our own Smile. We have been given the tools (via the session takes in the boxset) to take up such a task.

Because the 3-suite version of Smile is an inspiration to many people doesn't make it wrong, that is their SMiLE...That is what they relate to and connect with. You are in a whole other dimension of Smile enlightenment, as are other mixers, which is awesome. We each have our own Smile, none of us are wrong about it.

As for BWPS, we'll agree to disagree on that. It's all subjective in the end.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Gah, it is my favorite boxset, and I doubt it will ever be topped. However, the omission of Brian's CIFOTM edit blows my mind. A whole disc devoted to Good Vibrations when we have already gotten so many different Good Vibrations session take tracks is a mystery to me. I also agree that the album version of Smile on TSS is lacking....I barely listen to it because many of the tracks are void of vocals/lyrics. It sounds very unfinished, void of life. That being said, there is no other way they could've presented the material without many Smile fanatics raising hell about it. Putting in BWPS form was the safest thing they could do with the material. Again, as Alan said in the book, TSS mix isn't supposed to represent a tracklist for a '67 Smile....it's not meant to define how SMiLE is supposed to be heard. "roll your own" - we have been given the clearance/blessing to find our own Smile. We have been given the tools (via the session takes in the boxset) to take up such a task.

Because the 3-suite version of Smile is an inspiration to many people doesn't make it wrong, that is their SMiLE...That is what they relate to and connect with. You are in a whole other dimension of Smile enlightenment, as are other mixers, which is awesome. We each have our own Smile, none of us are wrong about it.

As for BWPS, we'll agree to disagree on that. It's all subjective in the end.

Yes, you put that very well. It sounds like they wanted to finish the album but didn't have the guts to go all the way and make the radical changes necessary and yet were too insecure to let the fragments stand as is. Look is the perfect example. Probably one of the worst reconstructions on there. Too scared to keep it as an instrumental, yet not confident enough to really go all out and beef it up with, say, some Wonderful or more CIFOTM overdubs. So it just sounds even more unfinished than if they had just let it be. That's just one example. But yeah, overall TSS 1 lacks energy and feels forced. It's also too long and exhausting to listen to all the way through.

I have to say also that playing it safe goes against everything SMiLE was about. The original album was a massive leap from what the band was doing before. It was a huge risk, since psychedelia was not yet mainstream and wasn't the Boys' usual audience. BWPS was a huge risk, for obvious reasons. TSS disc 1 ought to have been an honest attempt at reconstructing the original album, as best can be determined. I'm sure these guys had access to many more tapes, session info and the band themselves. They could've given us something in that vein. Obviously it wouldn't ever be 100% authentic but certainly very close. Even just following the Capitol list exactly would have been interesting and unique.

I love that box set to death. It's one of the coolest things I own. But damn if some of the decisions they made don't confound me. Leaving the test edits and new Child acetate for starters. There are certain takes of songs I was crushed were left off. CIFOTM mostly. We should have got more Psychedelic Sounds (at least Taxi Cabber, the veggie chants, breathing, maybe ice cream man--I know it's unrealistic to expect all of them) definitely more of the veggie fight. What we did get of that is so bare, it's useless in a "roll your own." Not all of the backing vocals were included as isolations. I'd have expected Truck Driving Man, Pretty Baby Wont You Rock With Me Henry, the ones from He Gives Speeches and the oooos from Barnyard especially. We should have gotten some Smiley sessions of the songs from that that were derived from SMiLE. The alternate speed take of With Me Tonight. Some Cant Wait Too Long (it grew out of SMiLE and has more in common with it than Three Blind Mice, which was inexplicably included) and maybe even Little Red Book and Untitled Instrumental. I'd have also appreciated the other two Jasper Dailey tracks.

I'm not trying to sound spoiled, but if you're gonna release the thing...go all out. We didn't need or want a whole disc of GV. It all sounds the same anyway. The fifth disc was a complete waste, even if the overall thing was beautiful.

If you or anyone else prefers 3-suites that's fine. Just don't tell me that's what Brian would have done. Or that just because he did it that way 36 years later for a live show that that somehow makes any other potential (and possibly more historically accurate) structure irrelevant.

I appreciate you saying that! Thank you

[runnersdialzero]

I also agree that the album version of Smile on TSS is lacking....I barely listen to it because many of the tracks are void of vocals/lyrics.

Yes, you put that very well. It sounds like they wanted to finish the album but didn't have the guts to go all the way and make the radical changes necessary and yet were too insecure to let the fragments stand as is. Look is the perfect example. Probably one of the worst reconstructions on there. Too scared to keep it as an instrumental, yet not confident enough to really go all out and beef it up with, say, some Wonderful or more CIFOTM overdubs.

I can't listen to any of these bizarre fan edits of stuff like "Look" or "Holidays" that take little bits and pieces of vocals from various years and tune them to create new melodies. I mean I guess it's interesting, but if that had been done for an official release, I'd have been reeeeally bummed out.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I also agree that the album version of Smile on TSS is lacking....I barely listen to it because many of the tracks are void of vocals/lyrics.

Yes, you put that very well. It sounds like they wanted to finish the album but didn't have the guts to go all the way and make the radical changes necessary and yet were too insecure to let the fragments stand as is. Look is the perfect example. Probably one of the worst reconstructions on there. Too scared to keep it as an instrumental, yet not confident enough to really go all out and beef it up with, say, some Wonderful or more CIFOTM overdubs.

I can't listen to any of these bizarre fan edits of stuff like "Look" or "Holidays" that take little bits and pieces of vocals from various years and tune them to create new melodies. I mean I guess it's interesting, but if that had been done for an official release, I'd have been reeeeally bummed out.

And yet...that exactly what they did. Personally I don't terribly mind it, but it seems a lot of people really hate the Whispering Winds fade in Holidays. All I'm saying is either leave the unfinished tracks as instrumentals or go all out and really make them sound finished. But just adding "child, child, a child" over the chorus just sounds weak and only accentuates how incomplete it is.