Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks?

[Summertime Blooz]

Starting the album with "Once upon the Sandwich Isles" while a cute idea, doesn't make sense lyrically. The first verse has to "Waving from the ocean liners" because you have to make the journey  before you get to the Sandwich Isles. It just doesn't jive if you switch them around. My 2 cents.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Starting the album with "Once upon the Sandwich Isles" while a cute idea, doesn't make sense lyrically. The first verse has to "Waving from the ocean liners" because you have to make the journey  before you get to the Sandwich Isles. It just doesn't jive if you switch them around. My 2 cents.

That's also a fair point. As we all know, for pretty much any theory there are just as valid reasons to discredit it.

I will say, Prayer makes a lot of sense as part of Worms. It goes with the "*church* of the American Indian" chorus. It points out the hypocrisy of the pilgrims running from religious discrimination only to discriminate (and, you know, kill) the Indians. And as we know, Brian circa 1966 clearly stated Prayer was the intro to the album. Im parroting points others have made, but they're so strong they warrant a repeating.

Then again, H&V is the single and stronger overall track. It's gripping, it's catchy, and as others have said, it's the perfect in media res opening. I interpret it as an old man looking back on his life and his country and trying to find meaning. We start off in the old west, CE/Worms show how we got there.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I just wanted to throw this out. Feel free to hammer it as I'm not totally sold on it myself, but I am trying it out right now.

This thread has me thinking a lot about the placement of "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine". For years I shoehorned it in near the beginning somewhere, even at times using it after "Worms" as some kind of landing/docking song, then leading into "Cabinessence", utilizing the "light the lamp" lyrics. I can't quite pull the trigger on ending with it, but it is intriguing.

Then I had an idea. I wanted to utilize it more as a love song, AFTER "Good Vibrations". When you think about "Good Vibrations", other than the theremin, what is the other dominant instrument? The cello, just like in "TOMP/YAMS". And then there is the lyric "...and the way the SUNLIGHT plays upon her hair", and "gotta keep those lovin' good vibrayions a-happening". OK, let's just say Brian continued that thought/theme, first with the cello, and then with the "You are my sunshine, please don't take my SUNSHINE (sunlight?) away". Get it - cello - cello and sunlight - sunshine. There are both kind of wishing/longing songs. I then follow "TOMP/YAMS" with "Wonderful" - she belongs there left with her liberty. Also, how close together were "Good Vibrations" and "TOMP/YAMS" recorded? Just curious.

What'd ya think?

[Mikie]

I have to say that I was drawn back to the site by this thread.

Hey Rock&Roll, how ya been?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I agree with your decision to exclude Veggies from The Elements. But then you threw me for a loop saying GS/Barnyard might've been elements. Totally disagree. As I've said before, I highly doubt any vocals were to be recorded for this track. Just because a song references "fresh clean air" that doesn't make it the Air element. It's just a lyric in another song. Perhaps an intentional motif loosely connecting two otherwise totally unrelated songs, but nothing more. I must ask, on what criteria then, do you base your exclusion of Veggies? If the memo, then why include GS which is similarly listed as a separate track?

Well, mostly I was just floating an idea. Certainly, I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard first came to life not as Elements tracks but as part of Heroes and Villains. What I was suggesting might have been possible is that these tracks could have become Elements in lieu of no other possibilities. It is possible that the Elements was meant to be fully instrumental, but there is no evidence to suggest either way. If all the tracks were to be as long as Fire, would that mean that Brian would put a six minute instrumental on Smile? Maybe, but a part of me would is strongly suspicious of that. I will admit that the evidence supporting Great Shape/Barnyard is not stellar but consider this: I'm in Great Shape has been paired with I Wanna Be Around/Workshop, while Workshop has been paired with Fire. Others here suggest that Workshop might be Earth. Furthermore, Great Shape and Barnyard are indeed connected - one song celebrates air, the other song celebrates dirt. It's not simply that Great Shape includes the word "air" - the song is essentially about feeling good because of being out in the open air. But your point about the memo is well taken.

To me, what makes it crystal clear that Child/Wonderful go together is the similarities. I must point out that your reasoning again seems contradictory here. You put Cabin and Worms together for being similar, yet Child and Wonderful together is out of the question? I'm not following you on this point.

Cabin and Worms though don't necessarily sound similar - they simply complement each other nicely and are in the same key change. Child and Wonderful, to my poor ears, sound like they use a very similar piano riff and they are both quieter and more laid back songs than other Smile tracks. For the same reason, I wouldn't put Wind Chimes in with them either. I feel like Brian would want to space out these tracks and not have too many big epics or more laid back tracks in a row.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I have to say that I was drawn back to the site by this thread.

Hey Rock&Roll, how ya been?

Been okay, Mikie! Good to see you're around. I still remember you as the first person who ever responded to me on a Beach Boys message board, back in the old century.

[Mikie]

Thanks, man. You should post here more often - they need more knowledgeable guys like you on the board.

[SenorPotatoHead]

I said it earlier as well, others have said it earlier than that. 
I disagree that every conceivable combination has been tried - I personally have never heard a mix where anyone has separated the Cabin Essence verses from Iron Horse/Coulee Dam (doesn't mean no one has, just that I have never heard it) - I have wanted to try this myself as I think the CE verses would go nicely with IIGS/BY, et al.    Iron Horse and Coulee Dam could fit nicely in Worms.....there are nearly endless combinations of the individual pieces. 

I like this idea of your's for Cabin Essence. Any other off the wall SMiLE mix ideas you may have? I'd be interested in trying my hand at them, unless you'd prefer to do the honors yourself?

Thanks!   If you would like to try this, please feel free - I've toyed with the idea for ages but haven't got round to actually doing it.  I'd love to hear any results you come up with, should you choose to explore this. 

[soniclovenoize]

Heroes and Villains/Vegetables: Many people suggest that Heroes makes the perfect opening track because, for one, it is hard hitting and, on the other hand, it was the planned single. Furthermore, it was the opening of Smiley Smile. So at a certain level, Brian considered H&V to be first track material. Yet if we use Smiley Smile as a litmus, I wonder how far we take it. Could it follow that track 2 of Smile might have been Vega-tables?

There is some logic to this, though I’ve never seen a Smile compilation where the two were side by side.

My SMiLE mix does just that.
http://albumsthatneverwere.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-beach-boys-smile-1967.html

[soniclovenoize]

del

[soniclovenoize]

Well, mostly I was just floating an idea. Certainly, I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard first came to life not as Elements tracks but as part of Heroes and Villains. What I was suggesting might have been possible is that these tracks could have become Elements in lieu of no other possibilities. It is possible that the Elements was meant to be fully instrumental, but there is no evidence to suggest either way. If all the tracks were to be as long as Fire, would that mean that Brian would put a six minute instrumental on Smile? Maybe, but a part of me would is strongly suspicious of that. I will admit that the evidence supporting Great Shape/Barnyard is not stellar but consider this: I'm in Great Shape has been paired with I Wanna Be Around/Workshop, while Workshop has been paired with Fire. Others here suggest that Workshop might be Earth. Furthermore, Great Shape and Barnyard are indeed connected - one song celebrates air, the other song celebrates dirt. It's not simply that Great Shape includes the word "air" - the song is essentially about feeling good because of being out in the open air. But your point about the memo is well taken.

My problem with this theory is that both IIGS and The Elements are listed on the memo.  So IIGS cannot be a part of The Elements as air or earth or whatever because it is it's own separate thing.  Same with Wind Chimes, same with Vege-Tables.  The Elements suites have to be their own thing, otherwise "The Elements" wouldn't have been listed that way and instead we'd see "Mrs O'Leary's Cow" and possibly "All Day"or whathaveyou. 

This is why I don't think The Elements was ever finished aside from Fire and maybe Water (if you believe that either Dada/Second Day or the Underwater Chant or maybe even the scrap of 'Water' from the Wild Honey sessions is a SMiLE leftover somehow).  All the contenders for Air and Earth were apparently not apart of The Elements.  There might be that "piano piece" that we were talking about earlier in the thread, but that's not really much to go on. 

[Loves The Sunflower]

Perhaps I'm just dense (I've been informed countless times that this is so) but... I just can't follow the whole "Smile is a musical journey from east to west across America" narrative that is purported to exist. I don't see the point of it if there is a narrative because the individual songs from the "Smile" sessions proper that trickled out in the late 60's and early 70's have always stood perfectly well on their own respective two legs for me:

"Good Vibrations"... the "pocket symphony" is precisely that.

"Our Prayer" is glorious and gorgeous.

"Heroes And Villains"... I think Hendrix referred to it as "psychedelic barbershop"... seems he meant it to be derogatory but I think of the track as just that and love it for what it is.

"Cool, Cool Water" is infinitely more interesting to me than "In Blue Hawaii".

"Cabinessence" is like... an illegally created, black ops genetic project chimera of "Good Vibrations" and "Heroes And Villains" -which is to say I like it.

"Surf's Up"... I still have to pick my sorry ass up off of the floor sometimes when I hear the 1971 version of this song. It's just... words fail it.

I prefer the richer, more orchestrated versions of "Wonderful", "Vegatables" and "Wind Chimes" from "BWPS" but I don't dislike the minimalist versions that appeared on "Smiley Smile". In fact, I wish to hell that the vocals from the latter could've been used on the tracks from the former (sorry, but for my money, vocals from The Beach Boys in their prime trump vocals from one Beach Boy and a collective of non-Beach Boy singers trying to recreate said vocals nearly 40 years later).

So, all that yammering aside... I think I like the 12-14 track concept just fine.

[shangaijoeBB]

my preferred SMiLe for the moment is the 12 tracks one, with 2 sec of silence between each tracks:

Side A (19:22)
(prayer)
1. H&V (Cantina mix to distortion/Smiley "my children were raised/sunny down snuff"/Bridge to Indians+C&W theme/Flutter horn)
2. DYLW
3. The Old Master Painter (Barnyard/OMP/Sunshine/Barnshire)
4. Wonderful
5. CFOTM
6. Cabin Essence

Side B (19:31)
7. GV
8. Vegetables (Smile Sessions mix)
9. Im' In Great Shape (GS/I wanna be around/Friday night)
10. Wind Chimes (GV box mix)
11. The Elements (Fire SOT 17 mix with sfx/Dada pt 1(sounds really earthy with the percussions)/Dada pt2 with water sfx/Holidays whispering winds tag with wind sfx)
12. Surf's Up

[soniclovenoize]

1. H&V (Cantina mix to distortion/Smiley "my children were raised/sunny down snuff"/Bridge to Indians+C&W theme/Flutter horn)

I've thought about this, but never tried it.  Seems like a good solution to removing the Fade from the Cantina mix and putting it back on OMP. 

[SenorPotatoHead]

Perhaps I'm just dense (I've been informed countless times that this is so) but... I just can't follow the whole "Smile is a musical journey from east to west across America" narrative that is purported to exist. I don't see the point of it if there is a narrative because the individual songs from the "Smile" sessions proper that trickled out in the late 60's and early 70's have always stood perfectly well on their own respective two legs for me:

"Good Vibrations"... the "pocket symphony" is precisely that.

"Our Prayer" is glorious and gorgeous.

"Heroes And Villains"... I think Hendrix referred to it as "psychedelic barbershop"... seems he meant it to be derogatory but I think of the track as just that and love it for what it is.

"Cool, Cool Water" is infinitely more interesting to me than "In Blue Hawaii".

"Cabinessence" is like... an illegally created, black ops genetic project chimera of "Good Vibrations" and "Heroes And Villains" -which is to say I like it.

"Surf's Up"... I still have to pick my sorry ass up off of the floor sometimes when I hear the 1971 version of this song. It's just... words fail it.

I prefer the richer, more orchestrated versions of "Wonderful", "Vegatables" and "Wind Chimes" from "BWPS" but I don't dislike the minimalist versions that appeared on "Smiley Smile". In fact, I wish to hell that the vocals from the latter could've been used on the tracks from the former (sorry, but for my money, vocals from The Beach Boys in their prime trump vocals from one Beach Boy and a collective of non-Beach Boy singers trying to recreate said vocals nearly 40 years later).

So, all that yammering aside... I think I like the 12-14 track concept just fine.

I agree, partly.   The journey, or trip, across America, in this case at least, is there but it is not a linear direction.   It is being used, IMO, as a metaphor/allegory for the present (which at that time was 66/67).   There was a cabin in Laurel Canyon, owned I think by Frank Zappa, it was, I believe, called The Cabin.  Many parties and shindiggy things went on there....Cabin Essence?    I also don't see the worms beneath Plymouth rock or the musical march of Empire which is DYLW as being solely imbedded in the past.  It's being used, I think, to echo the current state of affairs, as Brian and Van Dyke saw them.   In fact it's as relevant a song today as it ever may have been.
As well, I have long wondered about the myth of Custers smile, and if, with Van being the erudite fellow he was and is, this might have played some inspiration in the retitling of the album from Dumb Angel to Smile.   I'm not saying it did, was or is.  It's just something i've thought about for a while, because, to me, there are many ways in which the legend/myth of Custers smile would/could be poetically apropos as a title (outside and beyond simply because "it's a happy title for the happy music within".)   If you are unfamiliar with the Custers smile thing, take a read of it and see what you think.   It's only a bug I have in my pajamas - not something I am declaring as anything more than that. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Perhaps I'm just dense (I've been informed countless times that this is so) but... I just can't follow the whole "Smile is a musical journey from east to west across America" narrative that is purported to exist. I don't see the point of it if there is a narrative because the individual songs from the "Smile" sessions proper that trickled out in the late 60's and early 70's have always stood perfectly well on their own respective two legs for me:

"Good Vibrations"... the "pocket symphony" is precisely that.

"Our Prayer" is glorious and gorgeous.

"Heroes And Villains"... I think Hendrix referred to it as "psychedelic barbershop"... seems he meant it to be derogatory but I think of the track as just that and love it for what it is.

"Cool, Cool Water" is infinitely more interesting to me than "In Blue Hawaii".

"Cabinessence" is like... an illegally created, black ops genetic project chimera of "Good Vibrations" and "Heroes And Villains" -which is to say I like it.

"Surf's Up"... I still have to pick my sorry ass up off of the floor sometimes when I hear the 1971 version of this song. It's just... words fail it.

I prefer the richer, more orchestrated versions of "Wonderful", "Vegatables" and "Wind Chimes" from "BWPS" but I don't dislike the minimalist versions that appeared on "Smiley Smile". In fact, I wish to hell that the vocals from the latter could've been used on the tracks from the former (sorry, but for my money, vocals from The Beach Boys in their prime trump vocals from one Beach Boy and a collective of non-Beach Boy singers trying to recreate said vocals nearly 40 years later).

So, all that yammering aside... I think I like the 12-14 track concept just fine.

I agree, partly.   The journey, or trip, across America, in this case at least, is there but it is not a linear direction.   It is being used, IMO, as a metaphor/allegory for the present (which at that time was 66/67).   There was a cabin in Laurel Canyon, owned I think by Frank Zappa, it was, I believe, called The Cabin.  Many parties and shindiggy things went on there....Cabin Essence?    I also don't see the worms beneath Plymouth rock or the musical march of Empire which is DYLW as being solely imbedded in the past.  It's being used, I think, to echo the current state of affairs, as Brian and Van Dyke saw them.   In fact it's as relevant a song today as it ever may have been.
As well, I have long wondered about the myth of Custers smile, and if, with Van being the erudite fellow he was and is, this might have played some inspiration in the retitling of the album from Dumb Angel to Smile.   I'm not saying it did, was or is.  It's just something i've thought about for a while, because, to me, there are many ways in which the legend/myth of Custers smile would/could be poetically apropos as a title (outside and beyond simply because "it's a happy title for the happy music within".)   If you are unfamiliar with the Custers smile thing, take a read of it and see what you think.   It's only a bug I have in my pajamas - not something I am declaring as anything more than that. 

Whether intentional or not, I like to think SMiLE is a reference to Tim Leary's philosophy of S.M.I^2.L.E. The album is all about finding alternative means of inspiration and enlightenment aside from nationalism and traditional organized religion. But, like the best track titles of the album itself, I believe it's a double meaning and also invokes the idea of "a happy title for happy music."

[SenorPotatoHead]

Whether intentional or not, I like to think SMiLE is a reference to Tim Leary's philosophy of S.M.I^2.L.E. The album is all about finding alternative means of inspiration and enlightenment aside from nationalism and traditional organized religion. But, like the best track titles of the album itself, I believe it's a double meaning and also invokes the idea of "a happy title for happy music."

I wasn't implying it wasn't a nod to the "happy music within", just that it, like all the songs on it, have (potentially anyway) multiple possible meanings/relationships.   Very well may be many of these meanings are solely in the ears of the listener - but then that is the great thing with music such as this - Van Dykes words, like Dylans or Elvis Costellos (to use but two examples) provide an open field on "meanings" - and i don't see there's anything wrong with that.  It's part of the greatness of it.  
I am unaware of the Leary S.M^2.L.E. - will have to look it up (and it may very well be a reference to that as well as Custers smile...so there  lol
[edit: Just looked up Leary's SMI2LE - that's pretty cool.  Good call, Muj ]

[shangaijoeBB]

1. H&V (Cantina mix to distortion/Smiley "my children were raised/sunny down snuff"/Bridge to Indians+C&W theme/Flutter horn)

I've thought about this, but never tried it.  Seems like a good solution to removing the Fade from the Cantina mix and putting it back on OMP. 

Thanks! To me that's the only way for me to listen to Heroes & Villains now. All my favorite bits from the H&V sessions are there. At 3:30, it doesn't feel overlong with pt 2 chants and it doesn't have sections repeat from the Bicycle Rider theme and Barnshire fade. Maybe it's not 1966-67 accurate, but to me it feels like an exciting follow-up single to Good Vibrations that would have been a nice start to the album.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

1. H&V (Cantina mix to distortion/Smiley "my children were raised/sunny down snuff"/Bridge to Indians+C&W theme/Flutter horn)

I've thought about this, but never tried it.  Seems like a good solution to removing the Fade from the Cantina mix and putting it back on OMP. 

Thanks! To me that's the only way for me to listen to Heroes & Villains now. All my favorite bits from the H&V sessions are there. At 3:30, it doesn't feel overlong with pt 2 chants and it doesn't have sections repeat from the Bicycle Rider theme and Barnshire fade. Maybe it's not 1966-67 accurate, but to me it feels like an exciting follow-up single to Good Vibrations that would have been a nice start to the album.

Any chance we could hear it? Much appreciated in advance...

[Micha]

Starting the album with "Once upon the Sandwich Isles" while a cute idea, doesn't make sense lyrically. The first verse has to "Waving from the ocean liners" because you have to make the journey  before you get to the Sandwich Isles. It just doesn't jive if you switch them around. My 2 cents.

Personally, I think neither of those lines make any sense.

[SenorPotatoHead]

Personally I always saw Cabin Essence as a nice album starter.  "Light the lamp and fire mellow, cabin essence, timely hello, welcomes a time for a change...."     

[shangaijoeBB]

Am I crazy or do I hear the ending whistle of Heroes & Villains (intro) on one of the Cabin Essence acetate?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Am I crazy or do I hear the ending whistle of Heroes & Villains (intro) on one of the Cabin Essence acetate?

That would certainly interest me, if true. That's the way I sequenced it.

Perhaps an alternative to what I came up with, tho?
Maybe...
(Prayer)
Worms
Great Shape
OMP
Veggies
H&V
Cabin Essence
^There's your side A(mericana)

GV
Wind Chimes
The Elements
Wonderful
Child is Father of the Man
Surf's Up
^for the backside

[Bicyclerider]

1. H&V (Cantina mix to distortion/Smiley "my children were raised/sunny down snuff"/Bridge to Indians+C&W theme/Flutter horn)

I've thought about this, but never tried it.  Seems like a good solution to removing the Fade from the Cantina mix and putting it back on OMP. 

If you include the "descending strings" on the end of the CW theme as on the box set, it makes a nice transition into Worms (or Cabinessence for that matter).

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

My problem with this theory is that both IIGS and The Elements are listed on the memo.  So IIGS cannot be a part of The Elements as air or earth or whatever because it is it's own separate thing.  Same with Wind Chimes, same with Vege-Tables.  The Elements suites have to be their own thing, otherwise "The Elements" wouldn't have been listed that way and instead we'd see "Mrs O'Leary's Cow" and possibly "All Day"or whathaveyou. 

Yet the illustration in the booklet says "My Vegetables (The Elements)" So that door can still be left open. Maybe once Vegetables evolved into a more complete song idea Brian decided to take it out of the Elements, figuring he could go back and write something different for the Earth section later on. Or maybe not. Maybe the line is blurred. Vegetables DOES follow "The Elements" on the handwritten note, after all. So maybe "Vegetables" was both within and outside of "The Elements". But how could he think this all through when he didn't even record the damn song yet? The "demo" version isn't sea worthy, is it? Or was that the finished song as would have been inserted into "The Elements"?  Were "The Elements" destined to be the "Bugged at my Old Man" of SMiLE?