Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

There are so many pieces of SMiLE that are really short - too short to be counted as 'songs'. Maybe they were intended to be one of the layers in a song. Some could fit into more than one song. These things make it hard to imagine SMiLE as the normal type of album with a collection of songs. I therefore quite like the idea of suites. I'm not sure whether this would have worked had it been done in this way in 1967. Some would have considered it pretentious. SMiLE is like a piece of kinetic art. It is possible to assemble it in a multitude of different ways (and God knows it has been given this treatment and not just by Brian).  "Time will not wither her nor custom stale her infinite variety'" - if SMiLE is a She.

Wonderful was never finished, but a tag wouldve probably been added. Barnyard and GS were H&V fragments, possibly recycled into "Great Shape" the finished track, which I argue would be a medley. Fire was part one of an unfinished medley called "The Elements." OMP is short. I'm probably in the minority, but I think it wouldve ended up on the cutting room floor come a 1967 release. CIFOTM wouldve been about 3 minutes according to Brian's test edit. Prayer wasn't supposed to be a track initially. IWBA/Workshop wouldve been an element if you believe Carol Kaye, or part of GS perhaps.

So yes, there's small bits. But no proof that means BWPS-style suites. Keep in mind, Prayer/Barnyard/Fire were never originally meant to be standalone tracks. I'd argue having 30 second fragments rubbing shoulders with the likes of Cabin Essence and Surf's Up is one of BWPS/TSS's greatest flaws.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. OK, from all the stories we've read about Brian's irresponsibility, drug abuse, and various other things preoccupying him in late 1966, one could make the argument that he didn't give a sh-- about fulfilling Capitol's request for the song titles. However, I have a different opinion. If a record company is asking an artist - even Brian Wilson in 1966 - for a list of songs titles because they want to begin printing album covers, I find it hard to believe that Brian would fu-ck with them. What kind of jerk would give the record company the wrong titles, and then knowingly have Capitol print erroneous album covers? If he didn't think the songs were complete enough or he thought the titles were subject to change - COULDN'T HE JUST RESPOND BY TELLING THEM SUCH AND REFRAIN FROM SENDING THE LIST? And I don't know who actually wrote the titles on the piece of paper; I think it's irrelevant. The list was delivered. Needless to say I've always put a lot of stock in that list.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. OK, from all the stories we've read about Brian's irresponsibility, drug abuse, and various other things preoccupying him in late 1966, one could make the argument that he didn't give a sh-- about fulfilling Capitol's request for the song titles. However, I have a different opinion. If a record company is asking an artist - even Brian Wilson in 1966 - for a list of songs titles because they want to begin printing album covers, I find it hard to believe that Brian would fu-ck with them. What kind of jerk would give the record company the wrong titles, and then knowingly have Capitol print erroneous album covers? If he didn't think the songs were complete enough or he thought the titles were subject to change - COULDN'T HE JUST RESPOND BY TELLING THEM SUCH AND REFRAIN FROM SENDING THE LIST? And I don't know who actually wrote the titles on the piece of paper; I think it's irrelevant. The list was delivered. Needless to say I've always put a lot of stock in that list.

A very valid point. And perhaps that list was accurate--for a week or month or two. But then why work on Dada and Tones, sacrifice Worms and Child's choruses to other songs, and never finish GS/Elements or add more to make OMP a full length track? Like every SMiLE mystery, there's no clear cut answer here.

I just ignore it, BWPS's Tracklisting, LLVS and fan speculation and most interviews about SMiLE and try to go by what makes the most sense and what sounds right. Not a perfect system, but then nothing is. I just don't see OMP--even with its original fade--as a track. It's too short, too fragmentary even by SMiLE standards, not up to snuff quality wise and wasn't written by our star collaborators. It just...doesn't fit to my ears. Again, just my opinion and speculation. But it just seems like a wasted track, not on par with the other songs or Brian's previous work. Look and Holidays are considered lower tier SMiLE tracks, but they'd be far worthier inclusions, I'd say. Look even had vocals at the time. It's possible Tones (which also had vocals) and Dada/All Day were attempts at making a track to replace the lackluster Sunshine.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. OK, from all the stories we've read about Brian's irresponsibility, drug abuse, and various other things preoccupying him in late 1966, one could make the argument that he didn't give a sh-- about fulfilling Capitol's request for the song titles. However, I have a different opinion. If a record company is asking an artist - even Brian Wilson in 1966 - for a list of songs titles because they want to begin printing album covers, I find it hard to believe that Brian would fu-ck with them. What kind of jerk would give the record company the wrong titles, and then knowingly have Capitol print erroneous album covers? If he didn't think the songs were complete enough or he thought the titles were subject to change - COULDN'T HE JUST RESPOND BY TELLING THEM SUCH AND REFRAIN FROM SENDING THE LIST? And I don't know who actually wrote the titles on the piece of paper; I think it's irrelevant. The list was delivered. Needless to say I've always put a lot of stock in that list.

A very valid point. And perhaps that list was accurate--for a week or month or two. But then why work on Dada and Tones, sacrifice Worms and Child's choruses to other songs, and never finish GS/Elements or add more to make OMP a full length track? Like every SMiLE mystery, there's no clear cut answer here.

I just ignore it, BWPS's Tracklisting, LLVS and fan speculation and most interviews about SMiLE and try to go by what makes the most sense and what sounds right. Not a perfect system, but then nothing is. I just don't see OMP--even with its original fade--as a track. It's too short, too fragmentary even by SMiLE standards, not up to snuff quality wise and wasn't written by our star collaborators. It just...doesn't fit to my ears. Again, just my opinion and speculation. But it just seems like a wasted track, not on par with the other songs or Brian's previous work. Look and Holidays are considered lower tier SMiLE tracks, but they'd be far worthier inclusions, I'd say. Look even had vocals at the time. It's possible Tones (which also had vocals) and Dada/All Day were attempts at making a track to replace the lackluster Sunshine.

I agree that the list might've been relevant/accurate for only a week or a month or two, but I still think that's pretty important. It might only be a snapshot in time, but what an important time! It's quite possible SMiLE was about ready to be released at that particular time (when the list was submitted), only to have Brian blink. Again, the list WAS able to be submitted, and I tend to put more emphasis on something tangible like a handwritten note than some of the interviews by observers (though they can be valuable, too).

I don't know if OMP was a separate track or not, but I wouldn't base it entirely on its short time (and I know you're not). "And Your Dream Comes True", "Meant For You", "Do You Remember", "Whistle In", and "You're Welcome" were short stand-alone tracks to name a few. OMP also provided a rare Dennis Wilson lead vocal, and finally, Brian had cover versions on most of his albums.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. OK, from all the stories we've read about Brian's irresponsibility, drug abuse, and various other things preoccupying him in late 1966, one could make the argument that he didn't give a sh-- about fulfilling Capitol's request for the song titles. However, I have a different opinion. If a record company is asking an artist - even Brian Wilson in 1966 - for a list of songs titles because they want to begin printing album covers, I find it hard to believe that Brian would fu-ck with them. What kind of jerk would give the record company the wrong titles, and then knowingly have Capitol print erroneous album covers? If he didn't think the songs were complete enough or he thought the titles were subject to change - COULDN'T HE JUST RESPOND BY TELLING THEM SUCH AND REFRAIN FROM SENDING THE LIST? And I don't know who actually wrote the titles on the piece of paper; I think it's irrelevant. The list was delivered. Needless to say I've always put a lot of stock in that list.

A very valid point. And perhaps that list was accurate--for a week or month or two. But then why work on Dada and Tones, sacrifice Worms and Child's choruses to other songs, and never finish GS/Elements or add more to make OMP a full length track? Like every SMiLE mystery, there's no clear cut answer here.

I just ignore it, BWPS's Tracklisting, LLVS and fan speculation and most interviews about SMiLE and try to go by what makes the most sense and what sounds right. Not a perfect system, but then nothing is. I just don't see OMP--even with its original fade--as a track. It's too short, too fragmentary even by SMiLE standards, not up to snuff quality wise and wasn't written by our star collaborators. It just...doesn't fit to my ears. Again, just my opinion and speculation. But it just seems like a wasted track, not on par with the other songs or Brian's previous work. Look and Holidays are considered lower tier SMiLE tracks, but they'd be far worthier inclusions, I'd say. Look even had vocals at the time. It's possible Tones (which also had vocals) and Dada/All Day were attempts at making a track to replace the lackluster Sunshine.

I agree that the list might've been relevant/accurate for only a week or a month or two, but I still think that's pretty important. It might only be a snapshot in time, but what an important time! It's quite possible SMiLE was about ready to be released at that particular time (when the list was submitted), only to have Brian blink. Again, the list WAS able to be submitted, and I tend to put more emphasis on something tangible like a handwritten note than some of the interviews by observers (though they can be valuable, too).

I don't know if OMP was a separate track or not. But I wouldn't base it entirely on its short time (and I know you're not). "And Your Dream Comes True", "Meant For You", "Do You Remember", "Whistle In", and "You're Welcome" were short stand-alone tracks to name a few. And, Brian had cover versions on most of his albums.

More good points. I'd argue December '66 was the last time Brian really had a handle on where he was going with this. I believe that's when the list was submitted, so...

I've speculated it was second thoughts on Fire and the inability to write the other 3 elements sections which caused all the confusion and rewrites. Perhaps without the Elements, GS was also abandoned, and Tones/Dada were new tracks being worked on to fill that void?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. OK, from all the stories we've read about Brian's irresponsibility, drug abuse, and various other things preoccupying him in late 1966, one could make the argument that he didn't give a sh-- about fulfilling Capitol's request for the song titles. However, I have a different opinion. If a record company is asking an artist - even Brian Wilson in 1966 - for a list of songs titles because they want to begin printing album covers, I find it hard to believe that Brian would fu-ck with them. What kind of jerk would give the record company the wrong titles, and then knowingly have Capitol print erroneous album covers? If he didn't think the songs were complete enough or he thought the titles were subject to change - COULDN'T HE JUST RESPOND BY TELLING THEM SUCH AND REFRAIN FROM SENDING THE LIST? And I don't know who actually wrote the titles on the piece of paper; I think it's irrelevant. The list was delivered. Needless to say I've always put a lot of stock in that list.

A very valid point. And perhaps that list was accurate--for a week or month or two. But then why work on Dada and Tones, sacrifice Worms and Child's choruses to other songs, and never finish GS/Elements or add more to make OMP a full length track? Like every SMiLE mystery, there's no clear cut answer here.

I just ignore it, BWPS's Tracklisting, LLVS and fan speculation and most interviews about SMiLE and try to go by what makes the most sense and what sounds right. Not a perfect system, but then nothing is. I just don't see OMP--even with its original fade--as a track. It's too short, too fragmentary even by SMiLE standards, not up to snuff quality wise and wasn't written by our star collaborators. It just...doesn't fit to my ears. Again, just my opinion and speculation. But it just seems like a wasted track, not on par with the other songs or Brian's previous work. Look and Holidays are considered lower tier SMiLE tracks, but they'd be far worthier inclusions, I'd say. Look even had vocals at the time. It's possible Tones (which also had vocals) and Dada/All Day were attempts at making a track to replace the lackluster Sunshine.

I agree that the list might've been relevant/accurate for only a week or a month or two, but I still think that's pretty important. It might only be a snapshot in time, but what an important time! It's quite possible SMiLE was about ready to be released at that particular time (when the list was submitted), only to have Brian blink. Again, the list WAS able to be submitted, and I tend to put more emphasis on something tangible like a handwritten note than some of the interviews by observers (though they can be valuable, too).

I don't know if OMP was a separate track or not. But I wouldn't base it entirely on its short time (and I know you're not). "And Your Dream Comes True", "Meant For You", "Do You Remember", "Whistle In", and "You're Welcome" were short stand-alone tracks to name a few. And, Brian had cover versions on most of his albums.

More good points. I'd argue December '66 was the last time Brian really had a handle on where he was going with this. I believe that's when the list was submitted, so...

I've speculated it was second thoughts on Fire and the inability to write the other 3 elements sections which caused all the confusion and rewrites. Perhaps without the Elements, GS was also abandoned, and Tones/Dada were new tracks being worked on to fill that void?

I edited my post just after you responded. One more last point and I'll get off of it. I admit that OMP/YAMS is far from the best or my favorite SMiLE track, but it does get a Dennis lead vocal on there!

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. OK, from all the stories we've read about Brian's irresponsibility, drug abuse, and various other things preoccupying him in late 1966, one could make the argument that he didn't give a sh-- about fulfilling Capitol's request for the song titles. However, I have a different opinion. If a record company is asking an artist - even Brian Wilson in 1966 - for a list of songs titles because they want to begin printing album covers, I find it hard to believe that Brian would fu-ck with them. What kind of jerk would give the record company the wrong titles, and then knowingly have Capitol print erroneous album covers? If he didn't think the songs were complete enough or he thought the titles were subject to change - COULDN'T HE JUST RESPOND BY TELLING THEM SUCH AND REFRAIN FROM SENDING THE LIST? And I don't know who actually wrote the titles on the piece of paper; I think it's irrelevant. The list was delivered. Needless to say I've always put a lot of stock in that list.

A very valid point. And perhaps that list was accurate--for a week or month or two. But then why work on Dada and Tones, sacrifice Worms and Child's choruses to other songs, and never finish GS/Elements or add more to make OMP a full length track? Like every SMiLE mystery, there's no clear cut answer here.

I just ignore it, BWPS's Tracklisting, LLVS and fan speculation and most interviews about SMiLE and try to go by what makes the most sense and what sounds right. Not a perfect system, but then nothing is. I just don't see OMP--even with its original fade--as a track. It's too short, too fragmentary even by SMiLE standards, not up to snuff quality wise and wasn't written by our star collaborators. It just...doesn't fit to my ears. Again, just my opinion and speculation. But it just seems like a wasted track, not on par with the other songs or Brian's previous work. Look and Holidays are considered lower tier SMiLE tracks, but they'd be far worthier inclusions, I'd say. Look even had vocals at the time. It's possible Tones (which also had vocals) and Dada/All Day were attempts at making a track to replace the lackluster Sunshine.

I agree that the list might've been relevant/accurate for only a week or a month or two, but I still think that's pretty important. It might only be a snapshot in time, but what an important time! It's quite possible SMiLE was about ready to be released at that particular time (when the list was submitted), only to have Brian blink. Again, the list WAS able to be submitted, and I tend to put more emphasis on something tangible like a handwritten note than some of the interviews by observers (though they can be valuable, too).

I don't know if OMP was a separate track or not. But I wouldn't base it entirely on its short time (and I know you're not). "And Your Dream Comes True", "Meant For You", "Do You Remember", "Whistle In", and "You're Welcome" were short stand-alone tracks to name a few. And, Brian had cover versions on most of his albums.

More good points. I'd argue December '66 was the last time Brian really had a handle on where he was going with this. I believe that's when the list was submitted, so...

I've speculated it was second thoughts on Fire and the inability to write the other 3 elements sections which caused all the confusion and rewrites. Perhaps without the Elements, GS was also abandoned, and Tones/Dada were new tracks being worked on to fill that void?

I edited my post just after you responded. One more last point and I'll get off of it. I admit that OMP/YAMS is far from the best or my favorite SMiLE track, but it does get a Dennis lead vocal on there!

I wish he had sung lead in CE as (apparently) was the original intent...

[alf wiedersehen]

It's interesting that there isn't a Dennis vocal for "Cabin Essence", considering that was obviously the original intent and he apparently had a hand in producing the 20/20 version.

[Summertime Blooz]

I don't remember and I'm too lazy to dig out the book...what was the reason Capitol requested the list of SMiLE tracks that necessitated the infamous hand-written list?

To make the back cover slicks in advance so they could press the album the minute Brian was ready, I'd imagine. The album was already late and GV's popularity wouldn't last forever. Gotta ride that wave while it's high.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. OK, from all the stories we've read about Brian's irresponsibility, drug abuse, and various other things preoccupying him in late 1966, one could make the argument that he didn't give a sh-- about fulfilling Capitol's request for the song titles. However, I have a different opinion. If a record company is asking an artist - even Brian Wilson in 1966 - for a list of songs titles because they want to begin printing album covers, I find it hard to believe that Brian would fu-ck with them. What kind of jerk would give the record company the wrong titles, and then knowingly have Capitol print erroneous album covers? If he didn't think the songs were complete enough or he thought the titles were subject to change - COULDN'T HE JUST RESPOND BY TELLING THEM SUCH AND REFRAIN FROM SENDING THE LIST? And I don't know who actually wrote the titles on the piece of paper; I think it's irrelevant. The list was delivered. Needless to say I've always put a lot of stock in that list.

I agree with you. And wouldn't you think that an earnest attempt would be made to put the song titles in the correct order rather than randomly, even though they included the caveat  "see label for correct playing order"? It was a work in progress, after all, and I understand that BW wouldn't want to commit completely to a run order, but he must have had some idea as to how the sequence would go. I would think that, at the very least, BW had a plan for how the album started and ended and that would be reflected in the submitted list. Honestly, if you're just writing down the titles from memory or something, how is it that the biggest record on the planet is THE FIFTH SONG that you think of? Sorry, but that just doesn't wash for me. It's interesting to note the placement of Cabin Essence as sixth on the list. If you assume, just for the sake of argument, that each side would have had 6 tracks, and the list was an honest effort to present a  running order, that means Cabin Essence was planned to close out Side 1. Of course, as we all know, Cabin Essence closes out the first suite of BWPS. Is that a clue perhaps?

I don't know if OMP was a separate track or not, but I wouldn't base it entirely on its short time (and I know you're not). "And Your Dream Comes True", "Meant For You", "Do You Remember", "Whistle In", and "You're Welcome" were short stand-alone tracks to name a few. OMP also provided a rare Dennis Wilson lead vocal, and finally, Brian had cover versions on most of his albums.

If you combine OMP/YWMS with Barnshine it's not all that short.

More good points. I'd argue December '66 was the last time Brian really had a handle on where he was going with this. I believe that's when the list was submitted, so...

I've speculated it was second thoughts on Fire and the inability to write the other 3 elements sections which caused all the confusion and rewrites. Perhaps without the Elements, GS was also abandoned, and Tones/Dada were new tracks being worked on to fill that void?

It's long seemed to me, especially given it's association with Cool Cool Water, that the May '67 I Love To Say Da Da sessions were an  attempt to complete a proper 4-part Elements.

[Micha]

We'll have to agree to disagree Micha

That's absolutely fine with me, no ill feelings, but about what point exactly?

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

During the Christmas break '66 Brian's seasonal effective disorder kicked in and instead of wanting a great album he decided he needed instead to top Good Vibrations as a single. "Good Vibrations" his number 1 in December of 1966. Coincidence? So now it's "Where's the single, Brian?" So now "Heroes and Villains" took precedence over everything. In desperation to make "Heroes and Villains" the greatest single ever he started taking all the good ideas he had for Smile as a whole and in the process dismantled the rest of the record. Heroes and Villains is a black hole that sucks the rest of Smile into it. This was not some grand suite of reoccurring themes - this was an album that got consumed by a single track for the sake of topping the untoppable. When the priority changed from album to single...THATS when Smile died. And evidently this revelation came at the end of December.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

More good points. I'd argue December '66 was the last time Brian really had a handle on where he was going with this. I believe that's when the list was submitted, so...

I've speculated it was second thoughts on Fire and the inability to write the other 3 elements sections which caused all the confusion and rewrites. Perhaps without the Elements, GS was also abandoned, and Tones/Dada were new tracks being worked on to fill that void?

It's long seemed to me, especially given it's association with Cool Cool Water, that the May '67 I Love To Say Da Da sessions were an  attempt to complete a proper 4-part Elements.

Dada began life as All Day, a H&V fragment. The title 'Dada' the "wah-wah" vocals, the anecdote about Brian drinking chocolate milk from a bottle...it all points to a Child/Innocence/Life/whatever-you-wanna-call-it track. I don't know why this elements connection seems so certain in everyone's mind, BWPS revisions aside. Plus, I distinctly recall a user on these boards claim you can hear a 'third movement' within this song as the sessions fade out that sounds like CIFOTM. Dada wasn't listed as "The Elements: Water (or Air)" like Fire was.

I'd argue that The Elements as it was initially conceived was abandoned. Maybe CCW and later MOLC & IBH grew out of it. But the four part instrumental with crossfades was not to be. The initial idea for water was water sounds spliced together, air supposedly was going to be on piano. As far as we can tell, none of these exist if they were ever even attempted. That's why I urge people to just forget about trying to find the other elements and forcing a connection where there is none. As far as SMiLE 1967 is concerned, it's just another track that wasn't finished. Probably the least finished track of the lot. Just accept that, and let it be.

[RioGrande]

During the Christmas break '66 Brian's seasonal effective disorder kicked in and instead of wanting a great album he decided he needed instead to top Good Vibrations as a single. "Good Vibrations" his number 1 in December of 1966. Coincidence? So now it's "Where's the single, Brian?" So now "Heroes and Villains" took precedence over everything. In desperation to make "Heroes and Villains" the greatest single ever he started taking all the good ideas he had for Smile as a whole and in the process dismantled the rest of the record. Heroes and Villains is a black hole that sucks the rest of Smile into it. This was not some grand suite of reoccurring themes - this was an album that got consumed by a single track for the sake of topping the untoppable. When the priority changed from album to single...THATS when Smile died. And evidently this revelation came at the end of December.

Now we know the real reason(s) of SMiLE's "demise", at last. Not evil Mike, nor evil Capitol, nor evil drugs, nor evil '60 recording technology: it was a conspiracy between an evil (albeit effective) disorder and that source of all evils: H & V, the Black Hole. 

[Tomorrowville]

All I can do is state my preference for how I listen to and enjoy the SMiLE music, since we'll almost certainly never truly know what the original plan(s) for the album in '66/'67 were.  Brian clearly feels the matter is settled now, and I'm not about to argue with him, but it's also true that BWPS is not the album that would have come out in the '60s, so I don't even try to reconcile the two in my head.  I feel lucky to have a "finished" SMiLE album now *and* to have all the tracks from the original sessions.

I greatly enjoy BWPS as it is, with the three movements, so I prefer to listen to it as Brian and company intended.

I greatly prefer listening to the vintage tracks as an album of discrete tracks when I put them together on my iPhone/etc. for day-to-day enjoyment.  I basically just cut out all the fragments, all the obviously unfinished tracks, and just take complete, listenable, enjoyable *songs* and put them in a sequence that sounds good.

Best of both worlds. 

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

During the Christmas break '66 Brian's seasonal effective disorder kicked in and instead of wanting a great album he decided he needed instead to top Good Vibrations as a single. "Good Vibrations" his number 1 in December of 1966. Coincidence? So now it's "Where's the single, Brian?" So now "Heroes and Villains" took precedence over everything. In desperation to make "Heroes and Villains" the greatest single ever he started taking all the good ideas he had for Smile as a whole and in the process dismantled the rest of the record. Heroes and Villains is a black hole that sucks the rest of Smile into it. This was not some grand suite of reoccurring themes - this was an album that got consumed by a single track for the sake of topping the untoppable. When the priority changed from album to single...THATS when Smile died. And evidently this revelation came at the end of December.

Now we know the real reason(s) of SMiLE's "demise", at last. Not evil Mike, nor evil Capitol, nor evil drugs, nor evil '60 recording technology: it was a conspiracy between an evil (albeit effective) disorder and that source of all evils: H & V, the Black Hole. 

Obviously my post made so much sense that it was doomed to invite mockery.

[RioGrande]

More good points. I'd argue December '66 was the last time Brian really had a handle on where he was going with this. I believe that's when the list was submitted, so...

I've speculated it was second thoughts on Fire and the inability to write the other 3 elements sections which caused all the confusion and rewrites. Perhaps without the Elements, GS was also abandoned, and Tones/Dada were new tracks being worked on to fill that void?

It's long seemed to me, especially given it's association with Cool Cool Water, that the May '67 I Love To Say Da Da sessions were an  attempt to complete a proper 4-part Elements.

Dada began life as All Day, a H&V fragment. The title 'Dada' the "wah-wah" vocals, the anecdote about Brian drinking chocolate milk from a bottle...it all points to a Child/Innocence/Life/whatever-you-wanna-call-it track. I don't know why this elements connection seems so certain in everyone's mind, BWPS revisions aside. Plus, I distinctly recall a user on these boards claim you can hear a 'third movement' within this song as the sessions fade out that sounds like CIFOTM. Dada wasn't listed as "The Elements: Water (or Air)" like Fire was.

I'd argue that The Elements as it was initially conceived was abandoned. Maybe CCW and later MOLC & IBH grew out of it. But the four part instrumental with crossfades was not to be. The initial idea for water was water sounds spliced together, air supposedly was going to be on piano. As far as we can tell, none of these exist if they were ever even attempted. That's why I urge people to just forget about trying to find the other elements and forcing a connection where there is none. As far as SMiLE 1967 is concerned, it's just another track that wasn't finished. Probably the least finished track of the lot. Just accept that, and let it be.

It's possible you are perfectly right, but only Brian could ever confirm that.  However, I don't think he ever thought of "The Elements" as a big MOLC, 8-odd minutes of chaotic "elemental" instrumentals. For all Brian's avant-gardeness at the time, we are not talking John Cage here! For me, the 4 Elements are there in their full glory: Vega-Tables, Wind Chimes, MOLC, Water Chant/In Blue Hawaii. I know only that they are there to hear, far more real than any speculation, and they work beautifully.

By the way, I like your fanmix. Though I belong to the minority Church of the Three Movements, I like fanmixes with different structures: beauty in variation.
However, even your excellent mix shares the usual problem: while the songs distribute very naturally on 3 suites (Americana, Cycle of Life, The Rest), if you try to split them in 2 parts choices become so much more arbitrary. Where do you put MOLC? Wind Chimes? Vega-tables? Any of the "fragments"? No two mixes agree on that.
One 12-song album and no suites solves the splitting problem, at the price of making the sequencing one completely unsolvable.

That's my argument for the 3 movements: historical or not (and I guess not myself!), it's by far the more natural structure, given the songs as they are.

[RioGrande]

During the Christmas break '66 Brian's seasonal effective disorder kicked in and instead of wanting a great album he decided he needed instead to top Good Vibrations as a single. "Good Vibrations" his number 1 in December of 1966. Coincidence? So now it's "Where's the single, Brian?" So now "Heroes and Villains" took precedence over everything. In desperation to make "Heroes and Villains" the greatest single ever he started taking all the good ideas he had for Smile as a whole and in the process dismantled the rest of the record. Heroes and Villains is a black hole that sucks the rest of Smile into it. This was not some grand suite of reoccurring themes - this was an album that got consumed by a single track for the sake of topping the untoppable. When the priority changed from album to single...THATS when Smile died. And evidently this revelation came at the end of December.

Now we know the real reason(s) of SMiLE's "demise", at last. Not evil Mike, nor evil Capitol, nor evil drugs, nor evil '60 recording technology: it was a conspiracy between an evil (albeit effective) disorder and that source of all evils: H & V, the Black Hole. 

Obviously my post made so much sense that it was doomed to invite mockery.

Well, at least now you know that somebody reads your ******* posts. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

More good points. I'd argue December '66 was the last time Brian really had a handle on where he was going with this. I believe that's when the list was submitted, so...

I've speculated it was second thoughts on Fire and the inability to write the other 3 elements sections which caused all the confusion and rewrites. Perhaps without the Elements, GS was also abandoned, and Tones/Dada were new tracks being worked on to fill that void?

It's long seemed to me, especially given it's association with Cool Cool Water, that the May '67 I Love To Say Da Da sessions were an  attempt to complete a proper 4-part Elements.

Dada began life as All Day, a H&V fragment. The title 'Dada' the "wah-wah" vocals, the anecdote about Brian drinking chocolate milk from a bottle...it all points to a Child/Innocence/Life/whatever-you-wanna-call-it track. I don't know why this elements connection seems so certain in everyone's mind, BWPS revisions aside. Plus, I distinctly recall a user on these boards claim you can hear a 'third movement' within this song as the sessions fade out that sounds like CIFOTM. Dada wasn't listed as "The Elements: Water (or Air)" like Fire was.

I'd argue that The Elements as it was initially conceived was abandoned. Maybe CCW and later MOLC & IBH grew out of it. But the four part instrumental with crossfades was not to be. The initial idea for water was water sounds spliced together, air supposedly was going to be on piano. As far as we can tell, none of these exist if they were ever even attempted. That's why I urge people to just forget about trying to find the other elements and forcing a connection where there is none. As far as SMiLE 1967 is concerned, it's just another track that wasn't finished. Probably the least finished track of the lot. Just accept that, and let it be.

It's possible you are perfectly right, but only Brian could ever confirm that.  However, I don't think he ever thought of "The Elements" as a big MOLC, 8-odd minutes of chaotic "elemental" instrumentals. For all Brian's avant-gardeness at the time, we are not talking John Cage here! For me, the 4 Elements are there in their full glory: Vega-Tables, Wind Chimes, MOLC, Water Chant/In Blue Hawaii. I know only that they are there to hear, far more real than any speculation, and they work beautifully.

By the way, I like your fanmix. Though I belong to the minority Church of the Three Movements, I like fanmixes with different structures: beauty in variation.

However, even your excellent mix shares the usual problem: while the songs distribute very naturally on 3 suites (Americana, Cycle of Life, The Rest), if you try to split them in 2 parts choices become so much more arbitrary. Where do you put MOLC? Wind Chimes? Vega-tables? Any of the "fragments"? One 12-song album and no suites solves the splitting problem, at the price of making the sequencing one completely unsolvable.

That's my argument for the 3 movements: historical or not (and I guess not myself!), it's by far the more natural structure, given the songs as they are.

Thanks man. I'm glad you like it. Obviously you're content with 3 suites and I'm not trying to diminish that for you, but I'd like to defend the 2 sides structure, not because that's what I used but because ultimately that's what Brian would have had to as well.

I don't think there's any connection between Veggies/Chimes/Cow and Dada. None whatsoever. They are all wildly different in tone and instrumentation. I think the third suite of BWPS is by far the weakest because of it. Veggies with its upbeat silliness into Chimes' serene meditation into Cow's pure horror into Dada's tranquility...it just doesn't flow at all.

I think Brian of 2003 wanted to express the elements in his show, but the original track (and I can't emphasize this enough: the elements was ONLY a single instrumental track in '67, NOT a four song suite) was never finished and long forgotten. I think the fans influenced the structure of BWPS. Either Darian (if you believe he sequenced it) or LLVS/fan speculation lead to Veggies/Chimes/Dada being repurposed as elements when there's no proof that was the original plan. This is another reason I don't consider BWPS definitive.

I've said it before, I think Chimes goes into the Innocence/Life suite and Veggies into Americana. Chimes could be interpreted as a song about the anticipation of death. One of the people on this board proposed that and wrote a wonderful 'essay' about it. It features prominent horns similar to Wonderful/CIFOTM/Surfs Up. Barring some great new discovery, I'm completely convinced these four tracks belong together. Veggies sounds like Heroes' musical twin. Got the same upbeat sound with dark undertones, fits in with the Americana theme (agriculture, fertile land.) Again, unless we find some long lost recording of Brian saying otherwise, I'm convinced H&V/Cabin/Worms/Veggies were meant to be together.

After that, it's up in the air. I guess OMP would go into Americana, GV into Life/Innocence, and the Elements and Barnyard suites into whatever side. I chose to use Cow in Americana to represent the 'reforging of America' under the white man, and CCW/Dada in Life because all life comes from water. Of course Brian wouldn't have done that, but I can only work with the fragments he left us.

[Summertime Blooz]

Dada began life as All Day, a H&V fragment. The title 'Dada' the "wah-wah" vocals, the anecdote about Brian drinking chocolate milk from a bottle...it all points to a Child/Innocence/Life/whatever-you-wanna-call-it track. I don't know why this elements connection seems so certain in everyone's mind, BWPS revisions aside. Plus, I distinctly recall a user on these boards claim you can hear a 'third movement' within this song as the sessions fade out that sounds like CIFOTM. Dada wasn't listed as "The Elements: Water (or Air)" like Fire was.

I believe  the title LTSDD was making a reference to Dada, an avant-garde art movement, as the concept of The Elements was certainly that (at least in the world of The Beach Boys). This from a Wikipedia entry: "Dada was born out of negative reaction to the horrors of World War I. This international movement was begun by a group of artists and poets associated with the Cabaret Voltaire in Zurich. Dada rejected reason and logic, prizing nonsense, irrationality and intuition."  I think the Elements connection persists because the song would evolve into Cool Cool Water, and even in BWPS,  it is part of the water section of the third suite along with the chant. At least that's what I take from BWPS.

[Bicyclerider]

I agree Elements doesn't flow if you put Veggies/Chimes/Fire/Dada.  The only other piece besides Fire we know at one time was slated for Elements is Veggies (cornucopia version).  But without the other sections it doens't make much sense either.  Elements was unfinished - however, when Carl put together the track list for Smile in 1972 planned as a release with Holland, he included I Love to Say Dada (incorporating Cool Cool Water).  That's one reason why some feel Dada was to be the water element, besides the musical similarity to Cool Cool Water recorded later, and besides the fact Preiss identified it as water (but in his description he was talking about the water chant recorded during the Wild Honey sessions).

The track list is crucial in understanding what Brian's concept of the album was in December 66, as it was planned for release in January.  He had a month to finish it - what tracks could he finish in a month, and what tracks did he want on the album?  The list tells us.  Of course he was wildly optimistic about being able to finish it all, least of all in a month.  The Pet Sounds track list submitted did not follow the album sequence - but then that list wasn't used to make a back cover slick, which gives it more permanance but the fact that the back cover was never printed while the front cover was is probably significant.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Dada began life as All Day, a H&V fragment. The title 'Dada' the "wah-wah" vocals, the anecdote about Brian drinking chocolate milk from a bottle...it all points to a Child/Innocence/Life/whatever-you-wanna-call-it track. I don't know why this elements connection seems so certain in everyone's mind, BWPS revisions aside. Plus, I distinctly recall a user on these boards claim you can hear a 'third movement' within this song as the sessions fade out that sounds like CIFOTM. Dada wasn't listed as "The Elements: Water (or Air)" like Fire was.

I believe  the title LTSDD was making a reference to Dada, an avant-garde art movement, as the concept of The Elements was certainly that (at least in the world of The Beach Boys). This from a Wikipedia entry: "Dada was born out of negative reaction to the horrors of World War I. This international movement was begun by a group of artists and poets associated with the Cabaret Voltaire in Zurich. Dada rejected reason and logic, prizing nonsense, irrationality and intuition."  I think the Elements connection persists because the song would evolve into Cool Cool Water, and even in BWPS,  it is part of the water section of the third suite along with the chant. At least that's what I take from BWPS.

It's definitely a double-meaning. No argument there. Just as Vega-Tables is an oblique reference to astrology and Cabin Essence is a play on the word cannabis. But I still don't see how that connects it to water.

[RioGrande]

Excellent argument for the 2 suites, Mujan. Want only to point that 4 music pieces representing the Elements are supposed to be wildly different in tone and instrumentation!
And "Veggies with its upbeat silliness into Chimes' serene meditation into Cow's pure horror into Dada's tranquility" is exacly what I'd expect from an Earth -> Air -> Fire -> Water trip, and the reason it works for me.
I'm not saying that I am "right", mind you. Rather, that everyone is right, as we can't know how the "original SMiLE" would have been after all (I think not even Brian ever knew that!). So everyone is free to imagine it as they like, and that's the beauty of the whole thing.
But the full-fleshed (and maybe with multicolored feathers) "T-Rex SMiLE" was doomed to inexistence in the real world. Poor Brian wanted to make a 40-odd minutes album, every single piece of it as perfect as Good Vibrations, and nobody in the world could have pulled that out.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The track list is crucial in understanding what Brian's concept of the album was in December 66, as it was planned for release in January.  He had a month to finish it - what tracks could he finish in a month, and what tracks did he want on the album?  The list tells us.  Of course he was wildly optimistic about being able to finish it all, least of all in a month.  The Pet Sounds track list submitted did not follow the album sequence - but then that list wasn't used to make a back cover slick, which gives it more permanance but the fact that the back cover was never printed while the front cover was is probably significant.

I obviously agree, as I posted most of this ^ above. I don't think there is ENOUGH discussion of the handwritten list. Either you believe that Brian was trying to comply with Capitol Records' art department...or you don't. If you believe that Brian tried to be as accurate as possible, then more time should be spent picking apart those song titles in search for answers. It's one of the only concrete pieces of evidence we have.

If you don't believe that Brian was being sincere, and I can understand that point of view, then it falls into something like this:

(in the studio sitting/lying around between sessions)

Brian: I got this phone call from Capitol; they want the titles for SMiLE so they can start printing the album covers. They wanna get going on it.

Carl: What are you gonna do?

Brian: Well, I told 'em last week that I'm almost done, but it ain't done, do you know what I mean. I'm pretty sure I know what it's gonna be. I just have a couple of vocals to do then I'm done. But, right now, I'm not totally sure.

Carl: Are you gonna call them?

Brian: No, they want something written down. They said the titles were weird (laughs) and they want it in writing (laughs again)! Hey, do me a favor. You know all the songs we've been working on. Just write 'em down and send 'em to Gene at Capitol. I'll call him later and explain things to him. Me and David are going to look for a ping pong table. See you later tonight...

Carl: (nodding, sighing)